No Hp fairy due to "game freak being lazy and not changing their Hp calculating system"? Do you not know why they did that? All Pokemon iv bred for hidden power before the sixth gen would become useless, with shit splayed all over the place and suddenly your Hp fire Magnezone ends up with Hp poison or something that I would say is equally useless, but mag is a poke completely and totally dependent on his Hp type, and poison is literally the most useless type for it. But I ramble. Second, I don't care if you like pikachu, it is shit, and greninja and very good in its native tier of ou. While I agree that is bad to use protean defensively, you have to look into some of the things you are saying.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
- Start date
- Status
Scarf Greninja is honestly the MVP of my team.
252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 352-420 (124.3 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Seriously, it saves me everytime from Genesect, a huge threat. It is just a very anti-meta Pokemon at the moment, doing a number to most of the tier and outspeeding everything relevant, see:
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 118-140 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 96-113 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 352-420 (124.3 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Seriously, it saves me everytime from Genesect, a huge threat. It is just a very anti-meta Pokemon at the moment, doing a number to most of the tier and outspeeding everything relevant, see:
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 118-140 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 96-113 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
First of all, nowhere did I say that Greninja was not usable in OU. I pointed out some of the negative aspects of using it, because I felt the post could have been more even handed. Secondly, your point about changing hp is right of course, but I was merely pointing out the fact that the set suggested a move that is not available.
On another note, could someone tell me where to find a damage calculator with 6th gen pokes, Smogon's doesn't seem to be working for me at the moment, could be just my computer :/
My Greninja in-depth analysis (just so I don't post a whole post rumbling about Greninja here's a video (terrible self-promotion :P)) If this isn't allowed then please delete this post. Thanks!
Is Hydro Pump really important in Greninja? I have lurked this thread for a while now, and I seem to seeing a alot of people saying that Greninja desperately needs the extra power on Hydro Pump.I am currently using the mixed IVs Greninja (88 Atk/168 SpAtk/252 Spd, stole it from someone here a while ago), and I am currently using Surf over Hydro Pump. So I have to ask, is there any important Pokemon wherein you miss out on the OHKO if you run Surf over Hydro Pump?
Last edited:
Yes, I can not remember the exact targets, but hydro pump turns quite a few notable 3hko's into 2hko's, and 2hko's into ohko's.
Not necessarily, you just pick the move that helps your team more. Have trouble with ferrothorn, or don't have teammates that can deal with it, pick Hp fire. Have trouble with bulky poison types like Tentacruel or non scarfed muskadeers, use Extrasensory. It's all up to the player using it.
I wanted to run a spike greninja that could also psudo-sweep on my volt switch team. This is a special attack set.
Nature: Hasty
Hydro pump
Ice beam/extrasensory
Spikes
U-turn
I think that this set gives me one of the best spike users in OU and fits with my Voltswitch team while keeping hold of his two best STAB moves he has available. extrasensory can be run over Ice beam for unpredictability, but this assumes that you have another pokemon on your team that can handle the dragons.
Nature: Hasty
Hydro pump
Ice beam/extrasensory
Spikes
U-turn
I think that this set gives me one of the best spike users in OU and fits with my Voltswitch team while keeping hold of his two best STAB moves he has available. extrasensory can be run over Ice beam for unpredictability, but this assumes that you have another pokemon on your team that can handle the dragons.
Solid Gold is wrong. Extrasensory is clearly the better choice and always has been. Ice Beam does enough damage to Ferrothorn switching in that you don't need specialized coverage for it. Plus, the main reason anyone runs Extrasensory is to counteract another more dominant Grass type: Mega Venusaur. People are tired of being walled by it, and thus, Extrasensory is the natural response. Bonus perks include murdering Keldeo and a strong, neutral hit on Rotom-W.
The fact that Greninja can adapt to a major metagame shift simply by changing its fourth move shows that it's going to be relevant for a very long time. Genesect's ban left a hole in OU that Greninja fills well.
The fact that Greninja can adapt to a major metagame shift simply by changing its fourth move shows that it's going to be relevant for a very long time. Genesect's ban left a hole in OU that Greninja fills well.
Last edited:
How exactly is S0lid G0ld "wrong"? There's nothing wrong with saying that both HP Fire and Extrasensory are viable depending on your team. Sure, one can be better than the other for the most part, but that doesn't mean that you should never use the other one. Hydro Pump/Surf/Scald + Ice Beam is generally pretty necessary for Greninja and the rest can be U-turn, Dark Pulse, Extransensory, Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fire/Electric. You have options.
Because his post had absolutely nothing to do with the post that was quoted. Instead of addressing the subject of why or how Extrasensory has become more popular, he goes on a tangent about personal preference. More people are using Extrasensory primarily because of Mega Venusaur. In addition, it destroys Conkeldurr and Keldeo, and puts the major hurt on physically defensive Rotom-W.
I think HP Fire being popular early on was a knee-jerk response to the BW meta teaching us to fear Ferrothorn. It's a lot easier to get around now with both the Steel nerf and the absolute abundance of burns flying about. Even if you don't dedicate a slot to beating it, it will have a tough time switching into other teammates (even Greninja, as it doesn't even take Ice Beam that well to begin with). As people are starting to figure out, HP Fire as a whole is unnecessary, and offers little additional coverage.
I think HP Fire being popular early on was a knee-jerk response to the BW meta teaching us to fear Ferrothorn. It's a lot easier to get around now with both the Steel nerf and the absolute abundance of burns flying about. Even if you don't dedicate a slot to beating it, it will have a tough time switching into other teammates (even Greninja, as it doesn't even take Ice Beam that well to begin with). As people are starting to figure out, HP Fire as a whole is unnecessary, and offers little additional coverage.
Last edited:
The reason Scarf Greninja is good is just for extra power from STAB that you get from Protean. Protean's not solely for mindgames and diversity. It's good for beating just about every other Scarfer in the metagame, though the main target, Genesect, is now banned. Focus Sash is interesting, but it lacks the power of the other sets and you have to make sure to successfully clear hazards before Greninja gets sent out (good as a lead though especially if you run Spikes). Don't forget to run Hasty or Naive if you're running U-turn.
Water and Dark are excellent types to have STAB on this gen, due to the ubiquity of Charizard, Heatran, Aegislash, and Gengar, and Alakazam among others. Of course, Greninja is one of the pokemon that can operate without at least one move from its normal typing. However, Extrasensory/Uturn/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Fire just isn't as good coverage as you would have if you at least add a water move. It is a bit confusing when it says, "Good STAB attack," but it just, I think, means Surf and Dark Pulse are just overall good moves.
If they're using Hydro Pump, it's because that's the strongest move it learns. Even though Dark Pulse is a good STAB attack (Ghost revolution and all), I think that's due to having a weird posting style.
I would like to ask if timid protean u-turn misses out on any general damage/KO compared to naive/hasty. I'm kind of lazy to rebreed.
You generally don't want to KO something with U-turn because it means you have to send out a pokemon first and they get to pick what they send in to counter it.
But this is an example anyway:
0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 237-281 (82.8 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 265-312 (92.6 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
In that case a timid nature should be sufficient right? Thanks so much!
really the only thing you listed there that you actually need dark pulse for is aegislash, for everything else hydro pump/ice beam/hp fire is sufficient, and this is the optimal moveset imo. then u-turn, extrasensory or whatever else for the fourth. for hyper offensive teams spikes are nice, you wont actually be wanting to use u-turn too much
Doesn't make sense. If you don't kill something with u-turn, you're just going to switch into something that would -- best case scenario -- be able to kill it the next turn. Your opponent is going to get a "free" switch (not really free when something dies, but whatever) when something faints no matter what.
The only time you don't want to KO something with u-turn is when whatever your opponent has out at the moment is setup bait for something that you have. Like when you u-turn on Chansey and go to swords dance Aegislash. That's a pretty rare situation tho, and you shouldn't take away EVs for that specific situation that comes up once every 10,000 times that you use u-turn.
Hey I'm pretty new to this, but I came up with a sandstorm strategy for Greninja. The idea is he changes types to rock and gains the extra SP Def which he is severely lacking. My question is how viable is this will it make a difference, and is this difference enough to ditch the focus sash or let you keep it to buy you three turns instead of two? I tried do the calculations on my own but failed, so.... yeah.
Problem there is that you're locked into Rock type, which basically means being locked into Rock Slide. It's not bad offensively, but there are better users with better physical damage than Greninja, Rock is still a crappy type defensively, and even with the sand boost Greninja won't be all that tanky. (On the other hand, Rotom-W's Hydro Pump is actually not a 1HKO against rock Greninja in sand, so that's something different.)
Overall, it's not really any different from the concept that has been suggested of using Protean defensively to take attacks on resists. It's a cool concept and on another Pokemon could make for a stellar wall, but Greninja is just too frail to be thinking in terms other than glass cannon kill-or-be-killed terms.
Rock also unfortunately comes with a weakness to THREE different forms of priority. Machamp's BP is a potential 2HKO without a band, and banded Conkeldurr, banded Azumarill, or unbanded Scizor can actually score a 1HKO on priority, as can plenty of other things if even a single boost is involved.
- Status