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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Assuming that you're using slow Magnezone (but Magnezone that outspeeds AV Metagross is better anyway imo) you will never get to 2HKO Umbreon unless rocks are up, because Umbreon can go for an extra round of lefties thanks to Protect. Then again, after taking a single Tbolt, you can always switch into a ground type, as Umbreon can switch into pretty much any special attacker that doesn't pack too much power lter in the game, even if it misses half its HP. Sdmittedly it isn't the best way of dealing with Magnezone but it's possible :o
you guys are underestimating the things that allow free turns to magnezone. i think i can safely say that more than 70% of the teams have at least one choice user, and probably 100% of the choice users carry one move that cannot deal solid damage to zone (mienshao locked in stone edge, hydreigon locked in dragon move, chandelure locked in energy ball... the list is huge). and we've already discussed its power to destroy most special walls AND use volt switch against the few ones it can't win. the closest thing to a safe switch against magnezone is maybe volt absorb lanturn, which is immune to volt switch/tbolt and 4x resists flash cannon, but is actually 2HKOed by hidden power grass. i guess you can still use hidden power ground eviolite magneton with magnet pull and switch into flash cannon/hidden power to trap and KO it, and same for trapinch switching in electric moves ?_?
I don't know if it's broken, but it's just another one of those slow, but hard hitting pokes. And Hyper Offense isn't the only way to beat Zone...you may he ranked 1 on the ladder, but isn't it a bit over the top to say something like that? That's like saying the only way to beat X pokemon is to run XYZABC team...
And trust me, if I said that, there would be smogon baddies swarming me.
A rather high ladder playing using Zone:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-92368561
Still loses to non-HO teams...
Speaking of mienshao I would like to nominate it for S rank. The reasons for this being it fits so many roles and is one of if not the best wallbreaker in the tier (competes with zone) and has many other things it can do. If it is banded and reckless and uses a set of knock+hjk (which it should) Literally nothing can switch in on this in the entire meta same goes with Lo reckless but you can switch moves for less power and with its great 105 speed it is very hard to revenge kill. Mienshao can also run a very good scarf set with either reckless or regenerator to act as a extremely strong revenge killer or fast pivot and can revenge the entire unboosted tier with the right move. Mienshao also has its most popular set (and my favorite) the Lo regenerator set in which it acts as a incredibly strong and fast pivot with u-turn and regenerates the damage off due to its ability and thanks to its great movepool can also threaten out many things and have no safe switch ins. It can run a variety of other sets but i wont go into detail about those such as i believe i have already made my point but these sets are a swords dance sweeping set a special set a special sweeping set with calm mind and even a baton pass set. So overall i believe shao should be S rank of its sheer diversity power and unpredictability+movepool.
actually i'm pretty sure it was just S Rank yesterday, checking the OP now and it dropped back to A+ rank o_O
re: zone: personally tried it out. it hits like a damn truck, but there are things that still shit all over it (cmroost latias is an example: latias can still get to +2, after which it can roost stall and go for more boosts: magnezone will have to fish for crits with flash cannon while latias boosts up and murders with hp fire). it's strong, yes, but its not the "be-all and end-all" of uu. im personally still on the fence with mag, but its definitely worth at least A rank simply because analytic *insert attack here* hits like a nuke. though for something that's meant to punch as many holes as possible into the opponent's team... idk if its worth it just to go slow and take attacks from everything (mienshao doesn't have this problem because he outruns like half the damn tier)
idk really. cb mienshao is as legit of a wallbreaker as specs mag, and cb reckless hjk literally hits like a dumpster truck (jolly is capable of nearly maiming mega aggron after SR, for that matter). it's also better because again, it outruns half the fucking tier. i'd rather have a wallbreaker that kills things before it kills me lol. similarly, it also gets u-turn to pivot out, and knock off can smack hjk resists on the switch-in.
still, that's not saying specsmag is bad (any special attacker that can 2hko florges should always deserve a mention somehow). its just that i don't think its s-rank worthy... it's one of those "at least A, most likely A+, but S is a pretty far stretch" mons.
Before I have to warn this kid anymore, I want to clarify that I read every post in this thread. Fact is, most of the posts I read aren't backed up by solid research or practice. I made this thread because I believe I'm qualified to adjust the rankings as I see fit. If people want to complain about my subjective rankings, I can lock this thread and just use it for myself for reference when I team build, which is what everyone should be using it for.
If you don't plan on justifying your reasoning, then get a high ladder ranking (as in top three) and I'll take your opinion much more seriously. As of now, I'm getting like 1400 rated posters telling me I'm stupid when they don't even play in the upper ladder. I don't really care.
If you don't plan on justifying your reasoning, then get a high ladder ranking (as in top three) and I'll take your opinion much more seriously. As of now, I'm getting like 1400 rated posters telling me I'm stupid when they don't even play in the upper ladder. I don't really care.
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
TBH, I'm fine with the Mienshao drop. Just glancing over the top two groups, I can already see several pokemon that can check or counter it pretty reliably for many different kinds of teams. (ie: Hawlucha, Slowbro, Chandelure, Mew, Florges, Zapdos). Late game I can see it be pretty threatening, but you'll need to pretty consistently remove a pokemon or two before you can reliably sweep/clean up teams. I also HATE the fact that as long as any ghost is present on the opposing team, Hi Jump Kick is quite risky. It's just a free 50% waiting to happen. That being said, quite a few of Mienshao's counters are pursuit-weak, and a vast majority of them (minus like Slowbro and Defensive Mew) really don't enjoy switching into multiple Reckless Hi Jump Kicks. And if you're not a fan of Reckless, Regenerator isn't exactly bad either, especially not early in the game, so I think A+ rank is the perfect spot for Mienshao.
Yes while this is true how manyof these counters can take a knock off+ high jump kick or a +2 HJK when he sets up on the switch its not exactly mienshao's power i am arguing for (though thats a large portion of it) but his sheer diversity.
I'd like to nominate Roserade to S or at least A+.
Reasons:
Reasons:
- Access to Sleep powder+Spikes makes it almost a guarenteed 1 or 2 layer spikes on it's first switch in, and it gets multiple switch ins throughout the game.
- 125 Base Special Attack with two powerful STABs to go along with it. 130 base power leaf storm, 75 Giga drain, and 90 Sludge bomb to get passed the speciall wall Florges. 90 base speed
- Typing is a great defensive one on the special side, allowing it to switch into florges and bulky waters alike.
- Two great abilities, Natural cure to allow it brush off scald burns and paralysis, Technician to boost hidden power's strength to get passed two of it's main counters Magnezone and Escavalier
- Acces to 4 great recovery options. Rest+Natural Cure, Synthesis, Leech Seed, Giga Drain making its survivability even longer.
- While its two STABs are great attacking power with typing, it also allows some pretty extreme counters. Namely Crobat, who threatens roserade with Brave Bird, but also can get rid of spikes with defog.
- Without Hidden Power Fire, it cant even hope to do anything against Escavalier, Metagross, Magnezone, Steels in general. With the former being immune to sleep powder.
- After firing off at least 2 Leaf Storms, it's very succectable to being set up bait
Shaymin's gone from C+ to B+ to A- and now A!!! Also curious, did Celebi drop because it's typing leaves it weak Hydregion, Mega Doom and Hawlucha as well as U-turn and Knock off? It really can run a number of viable sets but it's weakness's to some common threats probably hurts it.
I would move Tornadus-T to A+ or possible S rank, It gets an amazing ability in Regenerator, so Rocks is not a big problem. Also it has good coverage on both the Physical and the Special side, making it difficult to counter. Also It carries a Powerful Hurricane for Rain teams. Lets not forget the good mixed bulk it gets (being an offensive mon) and sitting in a speed tier where it is only beaten by Noivern, Jolteon and a few Megas in UU, Which is negated by a scarf (which is viable) It is also only weak to one priority move (ice shard) which is pretty much non-existent in UU after Weaviles ban. Tornadus-T is a giant treath not to be underestimated.
Nominating Nidoking for A+
Nidoking is the third (to Magnezone and Hydreigon) Wallbreaker in the entire tier with better Coverage than Hydreigon and obscene amounts of power. It also has good speed for a wallbreaker and an amazing ability in Sheer Force. Nidoking does not allow easy switch ins as it 2HKO's most of the metagame (I hate you chansey) It is a very powerfull wallbreaker like magnezone that i feel deserves to be ranked higher.
Nidoking is the third (to Magnezone and Hydreigon) Wallbreaker in the entire tier with better Coverage than Hydreigon and obscene amounts of power. It also has good speed for a wallbreaker and an amazing ability in Sheer Force. Nidoking does not allow easy switch ins as it 2HKO's most of the metagame (I hate you chansey) It is a very powerfull wallbreaker like magnezone that i feel deserves to be ranked higher.
So whats you people opinion on moltres being put in B rank.
Just to paraphrase what i stated earlier. Is capable of running defensive and offensive. Able to u turn to keep momentum. Has two great stabs and two powerful moves to abuse them in fire blast and hurricane. Defog buff makes it easier to keep stealth rock off the field.
Just to paraphrase what i stated earlier. Is capable of running defensive and offensive. Able to u turn to keep momentum. Has two great stabs and two powerful moves to abuse them in fire blast and hurricane. Defog buff makes it easier to keep stealth rock off the field.
I agree with this post and there is not really anything i can add other than poison ground is a decent defensive typing it also means pokemon such as mega manetric and zapdos cant volt switch out it also give it a resistance to u turn.
While its defensive typing is decent, it still has pretty mediocre speed, and it's outsped by a lot of threats, like Azelf. You can run Scarf, but it's not really worth it in exchange for the LO power, and it doesn't really like being locked into one move either.
moltres seems to have interesting resistances/immunities in grass, bug, ground, fighting, fire and fairy, as well as cool stats, but honestly what does it do? i cannot see any utilities for it after looking at the top mons in the viability rank, what set have you people used?
Well looking at some past sets it can do a subroost set and life orb or choice specs but choice specs has lost some usability with the hidden power nerf. I was also reasoning its place by looking at articuno who has worst defensive typing and is slower. As for checking and counering it can check heracross, hawlucha, and magnezone. It can also counter mega aggron, celebi, chesnaught, roserade, jirachi, shaymin, metagross, and toxicroak. Roserade is iffy though since they speed tie andcit two hit ko by sludge bomb so it requires some prediction. And hurricane accuracy can get in the way sometimes.
When would Hurricane ever come up as an option for Moltres? Flamethrower/Fire Blast hits ever Grass-type, and if you need Flying STAB (I can't think of anything, to be perfectly honest), you've got Air Slash, which, unlike on Tornadus, is backed up by a very substantial base 125 Special Attack.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%)
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%)
I could list a bunch of other calcs but basically, hurricane's increased power matters a LOT.
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%)
I could list a bunch of other calcs but basically, hurricane's increased power matters a LOT.
Moltres is a really interesting 'Mon. Just like Zapdos, it can go both offensive and defensive (however zapdos has a better typing imo). It has handy immunities, 4x resisting grass and bug, and resisting fighting and fire, as well as being immune to ground. The latter 3 are common offensive attacking types.
I'd be fine with him sitting in B, though
Offensively it has that nice 125 Base SpA along with Fire Blast to nuke shit and Hurricane or Air slash. However it's coverage sort of stops right there, which is a shame, since it has to resort to Hidden Power to hit stuff like Empoleon. U-turn also comes in handy for a Specs user, but that crippling 4x weakness to SR though ;-;. Also it's not that fast, but 90 Base Speed is good enough I think. If you want him to be faster you can always run the Agility set. And there also exists the Sunny Day + Solar Beam set.
Surprisingly, I have found ways to make it work on a Rain team last gen in RU, because, unlike Zapdos, it learns Hurricane.
Defensively it has decent bulk in 90/90/85, but with it's slew of resistances it can make it to work, especially when invested. Defensively it has 2 options (I think): SubRoost+2 attacks or WoW and Roost+2 attacks. I haven't really used these sets as much, but I've seen them work sometimes. And it has a very good Stalling Ability in Pressure to go along with it.
Also if you're going to use it, I would advise you to run Defog or Rapid Spin (Hey, FWG Core with Blastoise, Roserade and Moltres?)
Some calcs for funsies
Offensive
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 148-177 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 121-144 (33.6 - 40%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 312-368 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 330-393 (90.6 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Meh, offensively it isnt that strong, But it can put some damage against teams because Fire is pretty good Offensively. Also you can run specs.
Defensive
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 104-122 (27 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 104-123 (27 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Moltres: 348-412 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(idk if this is the set Scar'd Darmanitan usually runs)
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Moltres: 181-214 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Moltres: 186-220 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Neh, not that good defensively but it can take a hit and shrug it off with roost however.
Tl Dr; Moltres is a pretty cool 'mon and can run a slew of different sets, but it isnt impressively strong , both defensively and offensively. It is good enough for B imo
Nominating Hitmonlee to C+ or even B (but C+ is more realistic)-. Yes he is outclassed by Hawlucha as a Unburden sweeper, but he offers a safer way of triggering it with Fake Out + Normal Gem. And like Hawlucha, he can afford to run Adamant due to his ability. His movepool may also be a bit shallow, but when all those that can get in his way while sweeping are gone, he can outright punch holes in a lot of teams.
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