Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Annabeth]

Why are Kangaskhan and Aegislash only B ranked ?

Mega-Kang can either be a nice set up sweeper with Power-Up Punch (very hard to check late-game) or a great revenge killer with Fake Out+Sucker Punch (especially awesome against poisonned foes) that shine against offensive teams and with some power thanks to Return and Crunch/Earthquake. Moreover, it has enough bulk (105/100/100 with only one weakness) to take most unboosted hits.

Aegislash is one of the best check to Xerneas which is very important. It is also a nice switch in to many threats including Mewtwo, Deoxys, CM Arceus, etc... And it can survive almost any hit in the game, even super effective or very strong ones (MMX's Earthquake, MMY/Dialga/Palkia's Fire Blast, ScarfOgre's Water Spout, Zekrom's Bolt Strike) and weaken with Toxic/King's Shield/Shadow Sneak in emergency cases.

I think they are both one the best (if not the best) choice in their respective roles, and they should be A- at least.

Gliscor should be much higher than B-, being arguably the best SR setter (with Taunt), an excellent stall breaker (excellent against Klefki, Lugia and many defoggers) and a great physical wall (checking MMX, Mega Blaziken, Mega Lucario, Groudon, Zekrom, some Ho-oh) all in one Pokémon is really huge.

 

[MMII]

I agree with you on Gliscor, I've fallen behind on this thread but I plan on grouping up all the potential changes for one last comment before making them.

Aegislash shouldn't move higher, imo. It's preety much just a specialized Xern check (mind you not as bad as Gastro since it can still do a decent amount of other things) but it's not particularly good and there are other Xerneas checks out there.

Mega Kanga I don't have a strong opinion either way but I wouldn't credit the PuP set for a rise.

 

[Annabeth]

I agree with you on Gliscor, I've fallen behind on this thread but I plan on grouping up all the potential changes for one last comment before making them.

Aegislash shouldn't move higher, imo. It's preety much just a specialized Xern check (mind you not as bad as Gastro since it can still do a decent amount of other things) but it's not particularly good and there are other Xerneas checks out there.

Mega Kanga I don't have a strong opinion either way but I wouldn't credit the PuP set for a rise.

Xerneas other checks are not that great : Scizor/Mega-Scizor can't take HP fire and so shouldn't directly switch in, Ho-oh can't do the job if SR is up, Klefki can paralyze but you will have to sacrifice it or pray for para hax, Jirachi and Bronzong are even more specialized. Oh and Bronzong being B rank like Aegislash is strange : what Bronzong can do that Aegislash can't ? Aegislash has better bulk, better offense, better typing and priority.

I'm not a fan of PuP Mega-Kanga either, but used wisely and with good support, it can be deadly.
The Fake Out set is really excellent against hyper offense and is still a threat if there is none of its counters in the opposing team.

 

[MMII]

You can get away a lot easier without having a specialized GeoXern check because GeoXern is only a threat once. Worst case scenario, you sack a mon to check it. Aegislash is just overkill a lot of the times.

Zong has levitate which in a ground infested metagame is actually pretty big. It can also setup SR which every team needs.

I'll leave arguments about Kanga to others cause I don't really feel strongly about it one way or the other.

 

[orch]

Kanga should be B or B+ max. Biggest niche for it is completely screwing over offense, but it sucks vs stall and balance. Though, stoss kanga is an interesting set that fares better vs stall and balance- I think that Haruno can fill this in.

 

[Annabeth]

Kanga should be B or B+ max. Biggest niche for it is completely screwing over offense, but it sucks vs stall and balance. Though, stoss kanga is an interesting set that fares better vs stall and balance- I think that Haruno can fill this in.

Offense is really the dominant play style though so that's a big selling point.
And it's not that bad against stall and balance : most Ho-oh, Kyogre and Palkia are KOed by Fake Out+Return and Return is a 2HKO against almost anything not resisting it. Crunch can even 2HKO Giratina and Lugia. It's just that it is dead weight if something like Arceus-Rock/Ferrothorn (those two won't like Earthquake on switch in), Giratina/Arceus-Ghost (those two won't like Crunch on switch in) or Skarmory is still around.

 

[Haruno]

Offense is really the dominant play style though so that's a big selling point.
And it's not that bad against stall and balance : most Ho-oh, Kyogre and Palkia are KOed by Fake Out+Return and Return is a 2HKO against almost anything not resisting it. Crunch can even 2HKO Giratina and Lugia. It's just that it is dead weight if something like Arceus-Rock/Ferrothorn (those two won't like Earthquake on switch in), Giratina/Arceus-Ghost (those two won't like Crunch on switch in) or Skarmory is still around.

It doesn't matter if offense is the dominant playstyle or not, you have to take into consideration how said mon deals with other playstyles. All your claims regarding kangas power are either misinformed or straight out incorrect. Ho oh/kia/ogre will not stay in on kanga in most scenarios while failing to 2hko defensive gira/lugiass.

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so kanga can't even 2hko lugia with multiscale broken. Rest I'll adress in orch's post

Kanga should be B or B+ max. Biggest niche for it is completely screwing over offense, but it sucks vs stall and balance. Though, stoss kanga is an interesting set that fares better vs stall and balance- I think that Haruno can fill this in.

Fuck, orch is one lazy piece of shit. Making me answer for him, smfd. Anyways orch's laziness aside, support kanga fares far better against balanced/stall since one of the main checks to kanga on balanced/stall would be support arceus forms which would switch in on w/e, proceed to burn and then kanga gets neutered. However if you choose to run a set with seismic/toxic then as opposed to losing to those suppport arceus forms, you instead can overpower them thanks to toxic damage and the static damage from seismic toss. It's also worth noting that since seismic toss does a static 200 damage, anything with less than fully invested base 100's will get 2hko'd guaranteed and even then most mons that have under 120base hp or less are 2hko'd by seismic after sr damage. The problem with this support kanga is that instead of getting walled by phys walls when you're running standard, you instead get walled by ghosts in general such as gira/aegis/gengar, the later two which would normally not be a problem for kanga and instead hesitate to switch in, they are instead free to do w/e to kanga with a support set. I suppose one could run crunch > protect if they choose to defeat gengar/aegis but it's ultimately up to preference. Overall I can say that support kanga has some viable use on teams but it's far harder to put on a team as opposed to standard kanga.

ps orch likes big dicks.

 

[Shiruba]

C- for Mamoswine? I don't believe it's ranked yet, but it's used to counter Eleceus and to set up SR, but it's a pretty thin niche and it's not really good outside of it. It's getting an Ubers analysis, so I figure it should probably be mentioned somewhere on the list.

 

[Annabeth]

It doesn't matter if offense is the dominant playstyle or not, you have to take into consideration how said mon deals with other playstyles. All your claims regarding kangas power are either misinformed or straight out incorrect. Ho oh/kia/ogre will not stay in on kanga in most scenarios while failing to 2hko defensive gira/lugiass.

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 177-210 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so kanga can't even 2hko lugia with multiscale broken. Rest I'll adress in orch's post

Ho-oh, Palkia and Kyogre not staying in means that Mega-Kan can force them out, which means it's not really dead weight against balanced.
About your calcs, I said Mega-Kang CAN even 2HKO. There is a nice 36% chance of a defense drop on the first Crunch, which means a 2HKO. So even Giratina and Lugia aren't safe switch in, especially as them switching in is predictable.

 

[JSteele]

Guys seriously bump Extremekiller to S

I mean its the main win condition of the maaany teams.

 

[Jimmyftw]

For people saying that Aegislash is too specialized in countering Xerneas, if you don't have a safe switch in, you will need to have some forms of priority, usually Extremekiller, to deal with it in the worst case scenario you need to sack a mon.

Also regrading Choice Band Max atk Scizor, I don't like it too much. It is worst than having a aegislash since if your opponent has a xern, you cannot risk bringing it out and all it might do in that battle is potentially just landing one strong BP on xern. Xern on the other hand can wear it down since it cannot roost.

And yes, ExtremeKiller is S rank material.

 

[Hack]

What you are saying about Scizor is absolute bull, even it is at 1 % health it will get off that Bullet Punch. CB Scizor, or any Scizor for that matter, isn't a safe-stand alone Xerneas counter due to HP Fire, but a good check at all times.

 

[Haruno]

What exactly does aegis check well outside of xerneas? Possibly bronzong I guess. Though in exchange, it's bait for some incredibly threatening mons like yveltal, ho oh and the likes. I really don't see the point in using aegis when there are less specialized xern checks that aren't deadweight in common scenarios.

 

[Jimmyftw]

If you are bringing your Banded Scizor in on random attacks before your opponent uses Geomancy, chances are you're not going to be able to switch into Xerneas anymore. You can revenge it, yes, but your opponent can always choose to attack the Scizor and switch right back out and save Power Herb.

252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 144-170 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can't afford to lose half your health with random switch in and so you would have to preserve it if you want Banded Scizor to actually switch in on Xerneas. Of course, you can say, "well Scizor can always revenge Xerneas" but this requires a sacrifice and who says Xerneas can't switch out after it uses Geomancy. This only applies to Banded Scizor of course, and not its other sets such as mega-scizor support. All in all, scizor is a mon that is trying to be a jack of all trades but really don't shine much in any particular aspect.

Regarding Aegislash, it can check and semicheck quite the amount of uber threats such as mewtwo forms, deoxy forms, palkia, Arceus forms, lugia, zekrom (with predict), among others. Yes it is Ho-oh bait and such and such, but guess what? Ferrothorn last gen was Ho-oh bait and look how good it was. Pokemon like blissely/chansey are bait to many more mons. All in all, Aegis is a good toxic spreader/staller and have nice resistances.

 

[Haruno]

Regarding Aegislash, it can check and semicheck quite the amount of uber threats such as mewtwo forms, deoxy forms, palkia, Arceus forms, lugia, zekrom (with predict), among others. Yes it is Ho-oh bait and such and such, but guess what? Ferrothorn last gen was Ho-oh bait and look how good it was. Pokemon like blissely/chansey are bait to many more mons. All in all, Aegis is a good toxic spreader/staller and have nice resistances.

I would bash your point about scizor but I feel hack could do it better than I can, so I'll leave it to him.

As for your point about aegis............................... wut? Half of those don't even make sense. The only mewtwo variant that aegis can somewhat beat are stall variants and even then since the most common set is 252/252+ SpD, your shadow ball will still be piss weak and aegis absolutely hates being taunted. Offensive mewtwo variants will carry a fire move (in mewtwo/Y's case) or earthquake in mmx's case so no way is it considered a reliable check to either of those. Don't see how it checks deoxys at all. It doesn't stop deoxys from doing its job of laying sr + 1 layer of spikes unless you run some suboptimal set like shadow sneak, so that's moot. Palkia has fire blast to roast aegis. Arceus forms is very broad, mind listing any proper examples? The only ones that come to mind are some fairyceus sets and grasseus I suppose. Fucking any steel beats lugia and lugia isn't exactly a common threat that teams that aegis are on should worry about in team building. Zekrom beats you one way or another. Blobs suck. So your whole list is brought to er....... fairyceus/blobs/lugiass, all of which are walled by any remotely bulky steel type that isn't restrictive to just aegis though it doesn't really check them bar toxic'ing them which I feel there are better options for.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Stall Mewtwo loses to Aegis when it has access to taunt, while Aegis loses to offensive Mewtwo when it beats it one on one with a combination of Gyro Ball and Shadow Sneak or just toxic stall it. Yeah... your logic is off. You clearly don't understand the concept of indirect checking which is too complicate for me to explain to a simpleton. By your logic, last gen, Ferrothorn cannot check Palkia since it has Fire Blast or it can never pressure mons like mewtwo since they carry fire moves. And how is SS a suboptimal set when it enables you to check 2/3 more mons and offer utility beyond Shadow Ball which is weak without investment anyway.

 

[Blue Jay]

Aegislash suffers from an awfully barren movepool which significantly compromises its utility in all respects, when it might otherwise have good offensive, defensive or support potential. It has excellent bulk when fully invested, and good defensive typing, but it can do little with this. It cannot act as an effective wall because of its meagre recovery and inability to effectively use Rest + Sleep Talk (Groudon at least has substantially more bulk on one end of the spectrum and access to phazing moves). Its support movepool is completely barren; no entry hazards, no phazing, little in the way of status and certainly no prized gems such as Defog, Wish, Aromatherapy, etc. Its viable offensive movepool is constituted almost entirely of moves with <100 Base Power (the exception being Head Smash, which has enormous recoil and relatively poor accuracy), with especially its STAB moves generally being rather weak, severely limiting its offensive potential.

Essentially, it finds enough free turns, but can do little with them, because it has no support moves, lacks the power to truly punish switch ins and cannot use them to heal sufficiently to wall threats consistently. Every Pokemon with good bulk, no weakness to its attacking moves and immunity to Toxic or the ability to heal status prevents Aegislash from accomplishing anything at all (except for occasionally forcing out a Fairy), while most offensive Pokemon beat it one on one, or at least if it switches into a super effective coverage move (which much of the metagame has access to and uses). What Aegislash can actually accomplish against the vast majority of the metagame is quite underwhelming. It is totally unrivalled in its ability to check Geomancy Xerneas, but relatively mediocre in every other role, especially as it cannot sustain significant damage in order to perform its primary role.

A comparison to Ferrothorn in the past generation actually beautifully exemplifies what Aegislash wishes it had in utility. It had a fair number of things in common with Aegislash; good bulk, superb defensive typing, limited offensive capability and no real recovery. It had all the bulk and typing to switch into a lot of things, but struggled to really check too much because it could 2HKO very little and could be worn down. However, in a metagame where hazard removal was incredibly difficult and prevention was almost impossible, Spikes were incredibly powerful. While it provided rain teams with valuable resistances and had amazing synergy with Giratina formes, Ferrothorn's foremost role was to use the free turns its bulk and typing created to lay Spikes and provide a powerful hazard advantage for its team, using status and Leech Seed to harrass switchins and sustain itself. This way it could provide significant support to its team with the free turns it created, something Aegislash cannot do, which is why its utility is so limited. Neither is particularly effective at checking many threats (Ferrothorn was actually an awful Palkia check), but Ferrothorn had the support capability to be an effective teammate, which Aegislash completely lacks.

 

[Edgar]

tl;dr: Aegislash lacks leech seed and spikes and that's why it's not good enough.

 

[Jimmyftw]

tl;dr

Aegislash has nice resistances which it can use to be an effective toxic spreader/staller and check some threats. Furthermore, it is the only solid counter to Xerneas which gives it merits for a teamslot in some cases.

Bottom line is: is it a top-tier threat? No. Is it viable in uber? Yes.

 

[Haruno]

It takes some talent to completely ignore other users points and then restate a point that has already been refuted .-.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

You're seriously underestimating xern's bulk LOL. Also, it's incredibly easy to get SR up and keep it on field. If you actually think that you can easily use Ho-Oh to check xern, then you're just delusional.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. +2 200 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 218-260 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 338-398 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you don't need 200hp for anything

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 440-518 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Xerneas: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (mild mixed set)

 

[skies]

you don't need 200hp for anything

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 440-518 (111.6 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Xerneas: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (mild mixed set)

Yes, it is best, as you waste Speed EVs, so it usually runs 200 HP. And who the fuck even uses - Xerneas?
EDIT: Got the EVs wrong, the standard is
108 HP / 28 Def / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
but still,
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 108 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 326-386 (77.6 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[orch]

are you shitting me?

 

[Disaster Area]

This thread is getting a bit odd...
Either way, with Aegislash, it is very effective at the role it does (downright stopping geomancy xerneas) and it earns its role for reliability too (I've found rachi/zong etc. forcing me to run a ho-oh too to limit my weakness when running stall teams). The only other things it can do is anti-lead the deoxys-forms from getting more than SR up (useful for stall) or if you don't carry shadow sneak then it spreads toxic reasonably effectively.
So basically:
Pro's
-Most reliable Xerneas counter
-Able to anti-lead OR spread toxic reasonably successfully
Con's
-Cannot compress roles as well as pokemon such as bronzong or jirachi
-Barren support movepool
-Few alternative options
-Other stuff like being ho-oh bait

I think B rank is where it deserves; It has considerable utility but the lack of ability to compress roles for a team sucks very hard for any team it's likely to find itself on.

 

[Kyuzeth]

After a friend and I have discussed this Pokémon for a long time, we have come to the conclusion that Mega Blaziken is suitable for S-Rank.
For starters, Adamant Mega Blaziken always has more power than Jolly LO regular Blaziken, as well as slightly more bulk (which actually helps) and 100 Speed, which is what allows it to run Adamant in the first place. Secondly, Mega Blaziken has near-flawless coverage in Ubers with its STABs and Knock Off, the latter of which can dispatch of its greatest nemesis, Giratina-A:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 344-406 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Another great thing about Knock Off is that it can remove Choice Scarves from stuff like Palkia and Kyogre, while raiding Xerneas of its coveted Power Herb. It not only provides coverage, but utility as well.
Alternatively, we could take a look at how Groudon, another Pokémon known for being a fantastic physical wall, fares against the rooster:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon in Sun: 427-504 (105.6 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These calcs perfectly illustrate how incredibly powerful Mega Blaziken is after just a single Swords Dance.

Now, Mega Blaziken may be held back by its frailty, but it forces so many switches on which it can pull off a Swords Dance and continue to sweep entire teams at its leisure. Unboosted Rayquaza's Extreme Speed cannot OHKO and it does the following in return:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 274-323 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Rayquaza cannot touch Mega Blaziken unless it has a Swords Dance of its own under its belt, so it's only a risky check at best.

Now let's take a look at Mega Blaziken's flaws. First of all, it despises hazards, as with the little HP it has, it does NOT like to lose more health than necessary, so it's really heavily reliant on team support. To counter this, Mega Blaziken is very easily placed on teams that need a fast sweeper. Its second flaw, as hinted in the previous sentence, is the massive recoil that its moves inflict. Flare Blitz damage and missing HJKs really suck for the blazing rooster and really wear it down in the long run. However, this can be solved by having a Wishpasser for Mega Blaziken, notably Sylveon.

All in all, Mega Blaziken is a seriously powerful threat in the Ubers metagame that may have flaws, but those are flaws that are very easily patched up. Therefore, we support Mega Blaziken for S-Rank.