Other Stall

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Yeah, just playing a few games, ran into a couple of teams exactly like this. Mega Venusaur is mandatory though. Chansey is the glue that stops you from getting anywhere.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
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With Lucario banned, stall has risen in usage. But almost all stalls use the very same Pokemon:

-Mega-Venusaur/Mega-Scizor
-Heatran
-Unaware Quagsire
-Skarmory/Mandibuzz
-Chansey/Clefable (Unaware or Magic Guard)
-Gliscor/Aegislash/Hippowdown
My stall team is as follows

Mega-Venu
Quag
Clefable
Blissey
Skarmory
Landorus-T/Heatran

I thought I was being clever with this team lol. Got to 1850 odd as stall has a good match up vs most teams. Against teams with speedy taunters though - and there are a few like that - I am straight up shat on. I've also added Rocky Helmet onto Skarm to deter U-Turn.

At one point I also ran a ditto over land/heatran, because the bane of stall is stuff like Mega Mawile and Mega Pinsir that doesn't need boosts to buttfuck stuff, but I found that after playing 200+ turns against another stall team where the game was 6-5, I realised that I needed a win condition outside cm unaware Clefable.
 
^Currently working on fixing that. It's one hell of a project, though. TFL's stall team that he finally published is also become quite popular, and for good reason. The team is nigh impossible to take down if you play it right. However, I've finally got a different core working, given in part by Yuttt from the beginning of this generation and a few bulky offense players (Nysyr actually introduced a similar core when I started trying to learn bulky offense).

I have found a few reasonable other grass types to replace venu and allow another mega to run free... However I've yet to find a mega I like... I'm wondering if I should wait for mega latias, because it wouldn't do bad with the current core, certainly the best defensive defogger once it comes out.

On the topic of new toys: Diancie also seemed like a cool toy, but I tried implementing Carbink just to play with the defenses, and it is shoddy at best. Volcanion... TFL, Orda and a few others have discussed this a bit, and it seems like a passable stall pokemon, a good substitute to heatran but not quite heatran. I don't really see any cool resists the water/fire typing gives, either. A lot of overlaps: 4x steel, 4x ice, 4x fire resists are nice (well...Steel is meh). The only pokemon that takes neutral from scald that can't be burned iirc (edit: Mega ZardX[Pseudo Y]/Reshiram), and a good deal of neutral. However. It has edgequake weakness (as all fires), electric weakness (rotom-wash/Thundy-i are way too seen), and these three probably account in the top five for offensive types used. I think it currently is:

  1. Ground
  2. Ghost
  3. Electric
  4. Rock
  5. Fight/Dark (Dunno which)
I have to think this is fairly accurate just on observation. It does have a slightly useful bug resist, as well as a good fairy resist. With leftovers, this thing won't do bad. Comparing it to heatran, the noticeable differences (noticeable being non-useless attacks like normal) is the neutral water Volcanion takes, the neutral fight, Heatran's poison immunity (esp. Toxic), Heatran's flying resist [perhaps most important of all], his psychic resist, heatran's rock neutrality (very important) and Heatran's dragon resist (Questionably important). I would say, even looking here, Heatran still has an edge, though I didn't include the difference in EQ damage as neither will survive stab EQs.

Looking at the stats.
91/90/106/130/106/77 for heatran
70/109/120/121/110/70 for Volcanion.

As far as we know, Volc is in the same boat as heatran with no recovery. Now, I'm not very good at rough estimates, but if I had to guess, Volc is a bit better on the physical defensive side and obviously he's not as Specially defensive. This, however, is fine. If we look back at their resists, volc doesn't have that fight weakness, a largely physical attack. I could see him subbing in as a physical wall, though he probably wouldn't do his job quite as well as heatran all around.

Meh, I tried justifiying him a few times in different write-ups. I think two things need to happen for his viability (he is close... He does have merits, just not cause yet). If he finds a good partner to pair with (Like venutran), he'd instantly become viable in OU. Fire/Water DOES have benefits in being unique, but I'm not sure it has a unique CAUSE. Secondly, if he can find a major metagame threat that he takes better than heatran, this would be enough. I'm thinking not allowing lando-i to switch in is the start of it... Water typing would keep that off the field. However, he needs a pokemon to counter, much like heatran has talonflame.


More on the different stall ideas I've been looking at later. I have a piratepad going of threats/counters going that I've been working on for a while, and I'm through 27 major OU threats... Most are offensive, I have about three more of them before the support threats (I already categorized Deo-S, so I have 9 other support threats to look over) and then some defensive threats (10, but most aren't meta... and some, like Tyranitar, already have an offensive analysis). If OrdA would ever post his stall team (maybe I just missed it), I'm fairly certain his breaks the mold a bit. It'd be good to see that introduced.
 
I would no think in Volcanion until we know what ability has. Heatran is very important because Flash Absorb between other things. Maybe Volcanion has Water Absorb or something similar.

I'm interested in besting TFL's stall because Venusaur has been for 15 years my favourite Pokemon. Problem is... 3 Steel Pokemon. I don't like that. I'm thinking in Gliscor over Aegislash.

Funny thing is the consolidated core of 5 Pokemon: TWG + Skarmbliss (with Unaware Quagsire getting popular over other Pokemon like Slowbro or Rotom-W even when Mega-Lucario is banned). The sixth member is what gives ''diversity'' to stall.

Some people use Clefable over Chansey. I prefer Chansey. It performs well its role of giving me health bombs and status cure while is one of the best Mega-Zard Y counters of the game.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-83420211
That game pretty much highlights the sheer importance of having an Unaware user, which got me wondering if having 2 users would be a good idea, one to cover physical boosters (most likely Quagsire) and the other to cover special (most likely Clefable), or even both covering physical since Chansey is so damn ridiculous it can wall special boosters quite easily regardless of the boosts they have (except CM Keldeo, which is why Clefable would be great for that).

I've been using a stall team successfully in UU as well, and it plays pretty much identically to the standard OU one in most respects. Many of the pokes used there are also easily viable in OU as well: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-90105886
 
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Is Unaware Quagsire really that popular? I've tried using it a few times, but I really don't understand it's value over Unaware Clefable. There's a lot more viable ground types for a stall team than there are fairies. I currently run Hippow-Skarm-Clefable-Chansey-Tentacruel -Zygarde ( hesitant about the last one, but I've been seeking a dragon that can take physical hits, and there really doesn't seem to be one).

And also, how in God's name does stall defeat Mawile? For crying out loud, beating Mega Luke was easier.
 
A slight exert from the threat list I'm putting together had mawile-mega, here's what I had:


Mega Mawile:Bulky offense wall breaker/Trick room sweeper. Mega mawile is so slow that stall pokemon can generally outspeed it. It runs play rough, sucker punch and then Sub/FocusPunch, SwordsDance+ knockOff/IronHead/FireFang. Having the highest base attack of any pokemon in OU, it's a good thing the main stab is resisted by the best defensive type in the game as well as having a largely useless second stab. Sucker punch is probably the most dangeous move in it's arsenal. Beware of Focus punch on predicted switches.
Counters: Mega Venusaur, Nidoqueen, Heatran (Non-subpunch),
Checks: Landorus-t, Hippowdon, Skarm, Sableye
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
I think unaware quagsire is pretty much needed right now on normal full stall. There is no other way to reliably defog without losing pokemon to bisharp if you are using the normal stall defoggers of skarm and mandibuzz. Skarm/mandibuzz get crippled by +2 knock off.
 
From my experiences, Heatran suffers against Mega-Mawile after one boost.

What about Quagsire? Unaware ignores its boost and you can basically only do damage to it with Play Rough.
 
I'd like to know how fellow stall players deal with Mixed Aegislash? It hasn't always just come in and completely destroyed me, but it is a major pain in my sides. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
UA Quaggy still can't take a huge power mawile. Quaggy takes weaker set up sweepers, generally making sure they stay around 130 Att is about as high up as he deals. Mawile isn't even close to that. Stall by no means NEEDS unaware quagsire, as his weak AF defenses are a let down to a full-out bulk stall.

Bisharp Counters: Cobalion, Chesnaught, Hawlucha, Mandibuzz, Scizor-mega (to an extent), Umbreon, Gyardos Mega (Should he get mega before Bisharp is in), Scrafty, Emboar (Last two slightly unviable for stall, but are hard counters... can serve as setup sweepers, and shedskin rest could work)

Puma Italia I only run my Dreadnought team for the majority of the time, but SpDef Venu of anything around 180 takes approx 30% (+7?), Hippo can avoid 2hko and threaten EQ, Chansey can avoid 2hko from SS (bar SD) and stall it with wish/softboil combo if absolutely needed, Chesnaught hard counters, PhyDef Umbreon, Mandi and Spdef Glisc all work.

Edit: also heatran, given a good recovery wish passer to assist. I run Tornadus-T w/AV and generally knock off Aegi's item before switching, making him far more manageable.
 
From my experiences, Heatran suffers against Mega-Mawile after one boost.

What about Quagsire? Unaware ignores its boost and you can basically only do damage to it with Play Rough.
Play Rough is a solid 2HKO against Quagsire lol, no chance. Heatran takes 80% from +2 Sucker Punch so keep that in mind, but Lava Plume does at least 70% and has a good burn chance. Worst case scenario you just phaze it out and try to not let it setup again. Even a x4 resisted Play Rough does at least 34% after an SD, but Heatran can shrug it off with Lefties and Protect.
 
Ajwf, what do you mean with ''AF defenses? BTW Quagsire is great countering Bisharp and making Defog even surer.

Let's apply this post from page 24 to current stall:

I know I have mentioned this a few times before in this thread in some way or another, but this is how I feel that most good stall teams end up looking like. I have looked through some other stall teams mentioned around and in the RMT forum, and the good one's follow this formula.

1. Primary Special Wall: All the teams I have seen have this feature, whether it be Blissey and Chansey or Clefable. It just seems necessary for the team's defensive backbone. I know that one can run a stall team without this kind of Pokemon in theory, checking special attackers through other Pokemon throughout the team, but I haven't seen that this generation yet.
2. Genesect Counter: As I just noted, most teams have a special wall like Blissey / Chansey or Clefable, while they are great walls, they fail to wall the special attacking monster that is Genesect. Most of the time this leads something like Heatran an automatic choice, however as Ajwf as demonstrated, other Genesect checks like Charizard-X are also viable in this slot.
3. Grass-type: Between their ability to check Pokemon like Breloom, Azumarill, Keldeo, a variety of Fighting-types, and ability to take on Rotom-W over and over again, Grass-types like Venusaur and Amoonguss pretty much always find their way onto stall teams this generation. Celebi and Roserade work similarly, but I haven't seen them used effectively yet. Gougeist, Trevant, and Ferrothorn all fill this niche but have a weakness to some of the Pokemon mentioned initially. I have seen a few stall teams without a Grass-type, but honestly they seem to be the exception rather than the norm.
4. Pinsir / Mamoswine counter: These 2 Pokemon have the smallest gap of counters as far as common physical threats go. The most common go to answer is Skarmory, but Rotom-W can work to similar effect. This Pokemon does not have to cover both of them at once, something that only checks one like Zapdos or Slowbro are fine, however they will have a weakness to one of these which will need to be covered in the next Pokemon.
5. A physical wall or check of some sort: Pretty much whatever you are not covering in the last Pokemon physical, should be covered here. It isn't going to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be, you have 1 more slot, but they should in a way complement each other and the Grass-type, covering most physical Pokemon at this stage. This Pokemon will vary depending on the team and what is needed, however Pokemon like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Landorus-T are decent options.
6. Miscellaneous: Check / Glue / Spinner / Ect: This will usually the most varying Pokemon. It is basically what your team needs, whatever it is, it will usually tie up any lose Pokemon you have as threats, and make the team function better as a whole.
1. Chansey monopolizes this role completely. Other option is Unaware or Magic Guard Clefable.
2. Genesect is already banned so point 4 can be divided in 2. Still, Heatran is the most used Pokemon in stall, even when it doesn't have any recovery means.
3. Mega-Venusaur. Also, Mega-slot.
4. With 2. banned. Best Pinsir counter is Skarmory which also is the Defoger. Surprisingly no current stall has a sure counter against Mamoswine. Maybe Quagsire.
5. Gliscor or Landorus-T.
6. Heatran as explained in point 2. It doesn't have any recovery means but is serves as the glue of the team completing the FWG combo and checking tons of threats.
 
I'm not sure what you're trying to show in that post, but the post's outline was completely wrong for what makes a stall team good. What makes a stall team good is it's ability to wall off the metagame threats. Simple as that. Quaggy's defenses are below mediocre. Outside of unaware, he'd never be considered with 95/85 PDef.

A stall team's own model shouldn't be contained in an algorithm so much as ideas of what can help. What it contains makes the team unique, so following a formula is rather sad. That's the main reason I want to break the mold of what stall has slowly fallen into. It's not fun to see all the lack of creativity/diversity. I still run my switch stall team on occasion because people don't know how to react. The over-exposure to the general stall only makes people prepare for it more. And stall as it is should be the most consistent anti-meta playstyle. Our job is to have a counter/soultion to every threat in the meta. Other Anti-meta styles (trick room, gravity) seek to abuse parts of the meta lesser prepared for and is a large part of the reason for their success. Stall is prepared for and still can be successful consistently on the high levels. Giving a formula for what stall should be isn't a good idea due to that becoming 'meta' for a style that needs to counter the rest of the meta.
 
What would the recommended Quagsire set be anyway? (mainly wondering about the moveset, I can't decide between Ice Beam/EQ or Toxic) The extra coverage is nice, but Toxic is just as good.

I'm giving Quagsire a try and have liked using it. I lacked an Unaware Pokemon on my team, so it was a welcome addition. I do agree that it can have a hard time staying alive though.
 
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The combinations of pokemon that work succesfully together to accomplish that goal is a small one, so no matter what you're not going to get really creative teams. I also found Quagsire pretty meh in testing.

ATM my team is ResTalk MVenu / SubToxic Zapdos / SpD Heatran / Chesnaught / Alomomola / Haze Xatu

The only really different thing is Xatu, which I haven't seen many teams utilize. We talked about momentum a while ago, and Xatu is the best there is when it comes to keeping momentum and keeping away hazards. It also makes dealing with Deo-D/S teams a lot easier, and with Haze can stop BP shenanigans. A lot of stall teams also have trouble dealing with common stall breakers like Mew and Sableye, and with good prediction, Xatu can come in and bounce it back. Stopping Klefki shenanigans is cool, too. My team still has issues, though. I have trouble dealing with Alakazam and Sub+3 attacks Gengar with Sludge Wave.

I've also learned that Chesnaught is really great, and Alomomola is really, really great.

And never use Synthesis Venusaur cause it is shit.
 
So I wanted to go over a few things as I continued to piece together a team, mostly for my own reference, but maybe something good will come of this. Specifically, I want to dedicated this post a bit to clerics and theory to cleric roles and synergy with the team. This is specifically because of my own struggles to find clerics as good, original entities serving a constructive purpose on a stall team.

A cleric is a pretty necessary role to a stall team. At the very minimum, it clears statuses and performs minor support tasts (threatens destiny bonds? Has healing wish? Perhaps it is a screen setter... clerics generally have some offhand niche outside of the first). So, my basic definition overriding any cleric is a support mon with the intent and purpose of healing members of a team. BUT in modern stall, I'd like to coin a phrase: Full clerics. This is only for their distinction of being able to pass wishes along side of curing status conditions. Every stall has a cleric, and most generally have a full cleric right now.

"Full Clerics" and their benefits.
But, in OU, there are probably three usable full clerics. Chansey(Or Blissey if your knock off prediction is inferior/really get double switched on), Sylveon and Togekiss are really the only three pokemon with both a healing move and status remover VIABLE in OU. Last generation, Vaporeon was in this discussion as well, and Umbreon can still have a spot here if need be. There are definitely some positive sides to this. Having experimented with both, the ability to have a full cleric on one pokemon makes finding your roles in battle a little easier. It comes out, doesn't take as many switches, and leaves only one pokemon on your team dedicated to it.

Negatives of "Full Clerics"
However, this style of clerics is not without its downfall. The main issue comes from the amount of moveslots used. Chansey actually uses three moveslots (Softboil/Wish/HealBell) for this job (to stop it from losing momentum) and Sylveon is best off using three (Protect>Softboil in this case). This, of course, severly limits coverage and can give these pokemon switch-in problems (Sylveon) or allow the opponent free turns (Chansey). Togekiss is an odd niche of being scary enough that it might only carry 1,2 or 3 support moves and any number of attacks due to the sets it runs, allowing it to circumvent this issue. The second issue is the "Eggs in one basket" deal. You lose your cleric, you've lost most of your healing capacities besides self help, which can be shaky given that not all stall members have their own form of reliable recovery. Having one cleric means you have only a few pokemon on the opposing team you can come in on to begin with as well as meaning the opponent only has to single out one pokemon to target.

The usage of "partial" clerics
The other cleric style is less used, almost unused. Pokemon like Latias, Gardevoir, Jirachi, Lanturn, Togekiss (The multi set thing), Vaporeon, Celebi and others all have parts of the whole of a cleric's responsibility. Pokemon like Latias, along with passing wishes, can defog and serve as a healing wish candidate (or just nuke). Gardevoir has destiny bond, Healing wish, Heal bell, wish and some other support moves along with the Hyper Voice spam. It has all the options, but never runs full cleric (or shouldn't... really isn't it's best set). Even Vaporeon can phaze while wishing and celebi sets rocks. These versatile pokemon are important to note for a few reasons. First, they have upside not provided by the full clerics. They are harder to nail down and eliminate, they only run what the team needs, and they make it harder for the enemy to come in on them.

The benefits of these partial clerics
There are other benefits to this. Even the fact that two semi-cleric pokemon may be run can be beneficial, though it does certainly have drawbacks. The first major benefit is that two clerics such as Lanturn/Latias, when paired, work incredibly well covering each other's weaknesses. This means that they have more switches and one can produce a switch for the other to work with. The second benefit is the element of surprise. Most people don't expect these styles of clerics because they aren't really seen. Lastly, the value of not losing a full cleric ability after losing one cleric cannot be overlooked. The longevity of a cleric and it's sheer responsibility to a team cannot be underestimated.

The drawbacks of partial clerics
The drawbacks, of course, are able to be seen. First, this means you have TWO slots reserved for some cleric duties. This isn't terribly bad because they have space to do other things, but it can still be a role strain on teambuilding. Secondly, the more obvious issue. It can take twice as long for two clerics to do the job of one, given the extra switch. However, if you don't need both wish/healBell/Support moves all at the same time, these do have benefits in keeping some targets out.

Some theory on clerics: Bulk vs Pressure
So now that we've briefly described the two broad cleric archetypes, let's talk about how this means anything. For a while, chansey was accepted as a great/best cleric because it caught tons of special attacks and healed off with ease. However, it allowed many threats in. Sylveon could stop many threats from coming in, but is far more frail than chansey and can struggle to get in. This has been an issue in teambuilding. The issue with chansey is it's lack of outside PRESSURE where Sylveon lacks BULK.

Both are key aspects of a game in general, but it should be noted that lacking pressure on stall is much more forgivable. You generally are a bit behind and rely on predictions if you are in a bit of a pinch to catch up. But in all honesty, Chansey has become so expected on stall and conkeldurr so common, even it's own bulk can be questioned by a fight type which chansey can't poison and whom can threaten most switch ins.

Bulk, however, is needed for all but the most synergistic stall teams. So lacking this is an issue, for sure. Sylveon's lack of bulk is damning, generally, but it has something only achievable otherwise by the half-clerics: Offensive presence/utility. Since the cleric has to take Kyurem generally, remember that Sylveon's hyper voice hits through subs and does this quite well. It also deters dragon spam.

Semi-clerics and their own set usages
For a true idea of the capacity of the semi-clerics, let's look at Latias, who is the most common of that group used as a cleric/support mon. Generally, a set with Psyshock, Wish, surf and defog is not only dangerous to in the ability to pressure and clear hazards, it also serves as a pokemon that both comes in easily and pressures easily to get wishes off to key allies, generally forcing a switch as it wishes, at least for the first time. Latias doesn't lack bulk or power, it lacks the movepool (Heal bell) and HP stat that prevent it from becoming a more premier offensive cleric.

Similarly, Jirachi is in an even cooler position. It's best set I've seen is Wish, U-turn, stealth rocks, Iron head. After wishing, it can slow turn out into another opponent, easing prediction and possibly gaining momentum back. This is also cool because you get to know ahead of time if you can pass a wish to a weakened pokemon safely. It does have healing wish and some psychic stabs to threaten if needed, but Jirachi's own typing is a personal favorite as it lessens the pressure on other users to use Heal bell. Jirachi's issue is generally consider its added weaknesses this generation, as well as the limits of 100/100/100 bulk as a stall mon. That, as well as a slightly limiting cleric movepool, may have made people overlook jirachi.

Cleric Synergy
Lastly, Cleric synergy. While Synergy on any part of the team is important, synergy with the cleric is the most important synergy. Why do you think the best clerics have been incredibly bulky or possessing a really fantastic defensive typing? It allows them to better pass if the opponent can't safely bring in something to hit the pokemon you want to wish pass to.

Basically, the whole key is to point out on the stall team who will need the cleric the most and then make sure their weaknesses do not overlap much. Pokemon such as heatran, Blastoise, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Aggron and others all lack reliable recovery and either rely on resttalk or wish for their HP. This means that if you have a heatran, Sylveon is technically a fantastic partner given Heatran covering Sylveon's weaknesses perfectly and Sylveon resisting fighting easily. It is more important for the cleric to have a resist to the target's typing than the target have a resist to Sylveon's typing as not allowing the target that can finish off your poke in the first place is huge. People play against the pokemon on the field for the most part. A Cleric's dedicated counters/checks are the best ones to play off of to get a wish passed. Unfortunately, with pokemon like chansey, who just has sheer bulk, this can be difficult. In Chansey's case, it is best to make sure the target and chansey simply do not overlap weaknesses given that the opponent can bring in any pokemon he needs vs chansey.

Right now, I'm looking into a few clerics in the full-cleric section, but I think that once mega latias arrives, the half clerics could really work, as a healbeller is always nice and Latias could wish pass as it will probably draw many specific threats in. Any opinions on some underrated clerics/Cleric ideas? I'm wondering if anyone runs healing wish on stall as a legitimate way to replenish something like Mega Venusaur and how it works if someone has been doing so.
 
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There is none. The first paragraph summarizes what I wanted to talk about. From there, I just went over the role of cleric. I wrote it while I was exhausted so I didn't keep much track of the size, I was just trying to get the thoughts down before I fell asleep. I have, however, labeled the general sections just for quicker scrolling.
 
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Is Unaware Quagsire really that popular? I've tried using it a few times, but I really don't understand it's value over Unaware Clefable. There's a lot more viable ground types for a stall team than there are fairies. I currently run Hippow-Skarm-Clefable-Chansey-Tentacruel -Zygarde ( hesitant about the last one, but I've been seeking a dragon that can take physical hits, and there really doesn't seem to be one).

And also, how in God's name does stall defeat Mawile? For crying out loud, beating Mega Luke was easier.
Quagsire handles the majority of set-up sweepers better than Clefable does. Clefable can be 2HKO'd by Mega Tyranitar's Stone Edge, Mega Charizard-X's Flare Blitz, SD Aegislash & Bisharp's Iron Head, Scizor's Bullet Punch. All very common and better dealt with by Quag. There are very few common set up sweepers better dealt with by Clefable.
 
Clefable is an odd sort of case. It generally runs cleric on the unaware set, but it runs it more for itself than its teammates. It only runs wish/protect as that is the only way of recovering on an unaware set, and sometimes it won't even run heal bell. To be honest, I've yet to see Clefable as an effective cleric to a team, but more often I've seen it act as an unaware quagsire for manaphy.

Realistically, i found the magic guard tank set (Flame thrower[or was it fire blast]/MoonBlast/Knock off/Softboil) much more useful on clefable. I guess a cleric set could be used, but Sylveon is the better monotype fairy cleric.
 
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