Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[RufflesPro]

Hydreigon's main issue is that it's literally countered by every single relevant Fairy-type in OU. Yes it can hurt them with Flash Cannon but it would rather use other moves to hurt other important Pokemon.

Other than that, though, Specs Hydreigon has a very spammable and strong Dark Pulse. And Specs Draco Meteor hurts shit hard. It can OHKO Heatran and Tyranitar with Earth Power and Focus Blast, respectively, and it has good coverage with Fire Blast. On top of all that, it has access to u-turn, making it a pretty neat momentum gainer since it forces lots of switches, so pairing it with a Pokemon such as Bisharp or other hard-hitting Steel types can help a lot in taking down fairies or the pink blobs. Specs Latios can also be a pretty good teammate as they both have similar counters, and Latios can hurt/cripple said counters hard with Specs Psyshock and Trick. The Hydra also has Levitate, giving it another immunity alongside Psychic. Another issue it suffers from though is its speed tier. While it's not the slowest Pokemon around, it's still not fast enough. In a metagame where 100 speed is considered average, 97 (or is it 98? i forgot) is below average. But that doesn't stop it from wallbreaking at all.

Roost + 3 Attacks can also wallbreak and hurt things, but Specs's power is just too much to ignore.

I would say B+ or B at worst would be suitable for the Hydra.

I think the scarf set is also very viable, Fire- Blast dents a lot of the steel types in the meta, U-Turn gives huge momentum, Draco Meteor hurts like a mother, and Dark Pulse is extremely strong (I think Specs is the strongest in the meta? Not sure ...) and with the steel- nerf, it is as spammable as last gen if not more (Dammit fairy types).

It has 98 speed, but what really shines for Hydriegon is his wallbreaking ability, superpower + Draco Meteor can wallbreak a lot of walls with LO, Dark Pulse + Fire Blast add to the wallbreaking ability, after having -1/-1/-2 you have to switch, but it's, sometimes, very worth losing momentum.

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 380-447 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 251-296 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 153-183 (42 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Other than Chansey (Mega Venusaur will die to Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor, Draco Meteor + Superpower has a good chance to KO Blissey) , Hydreigon can 2HKO most of the walls, and of course Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Skarmory, will get OHKO-ed by LO Fire Blast (LO doesn't even matter really)

Hydreigon does indeed have 4MSS, but it's a very good wallbreaker that is very versatile.

Agreeing on B rank for Hydreigon.

I have to agree with this. Toxic stall is an underestimated, and in the current meta, oft unprepared for strategy that can cripple whole teams at a time. Steel types are not as prevalent (aside the somewhat common excadrill, and the stall team's skarmory, and scizor) so toxic is more harmful, and with a physical leaning meta game, gliscor's physical bulk is even more appreciated.

Certainly deserves to be A or A- alongside hippowdon.


As for Zapdos, I'm interested in how viable it will be now that mega lucario is gone.

Just off the top of my head I can see it being a great counter to pinsir, talonflame, and to a certain extent, aegislash.

However it has a bit of 4MSS. It needs thunderbolt and heat wave for coverage, but appreciates status moves like Defog, roost, protect, and toxic.

I've recently started using Zapdos and have found nothing disappointing but nothing to make it stand out.

I also want to support Gliscor for at least A-.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 208+ Def Gliscor: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

First of all, I run 244 HP / 208+ Def / 56 Spe, as you only need 56 speed EVs to outspeed Adamant max speed Bisharp.

For Talonflame, first you Knock off, then you protect, that's half of the damage Talonflame inflicted is gone, then use Toxic, then protect, and Talonflame will eventually die from recoil and toxic. And that is Adamant CB talonflame gentlemen.

Gliscor also loves hitting the likes of Gengar, Rotom-W, Flying- type, Lati@s, w/ Knock off on the switch in. Knock off is GREAT utility AND decent damage from a Gliscor.

Unlike last gen, Gliscor can actually do something to Skarmory, Knock off, which is very crippling on a wall like him, same with Ferrothorn and many other steel- types.

Toxistall is very very good, I use Gliscor on ~90% of my teams and it so good.

While some will disagree with this, Gliscor is versatile, Ice fang and Fire Fang will surprise the likes of Ferrothorn, Scizor, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, etc. As the latter 4 like to come in on Gliscor (especially Mega Scizor w/ Roost, because it can tank EQ like it's nothing), and SD Garchomp will come a LOT of times on Gliscor.

I'm very experienced with Gliscor, definitely A-.

Ferrothorn in A-. The loss of the ghost and dark resistances dont affect him that much. He gained a resistance to fairy and still has premier resistances to water,electric and rock mooves. Also he is a spore absorber very usefull for the team overall. I think he isnt a or a+ because the rain nerf and that loss of resistances. Anyway its the second option for a wall (rotom-w is first sure) and a force which every team should consider using it. EDIT: lol rotom-w is a tank or a wall? I am new here in smogon sorri for the mistakes.

Let me rephrase this:

Ferrothron did lose the resistance to Dark- and Ghost-, but the very useful new resistance of Fairy- is very good, alongside the resistance of Water-, Steel-, Dragon-, and Rock-, is even more amazing, not to mention the resistance of electric which means it's tanking Volt switches, and Rotom-W specifically.

All Rotom-W can do to a ferrothorn is burn, while you can Leech Seed, set up rocks, and even Spikes.
Becoming the 2nd best spore/Sleep powder-abosrber pokemon in the metagame, not to mention the 2nd best wall immune to that, and one of the most amazing stall pokemons.

Ferrothorn also blocks Mega Venusaurs that do not carry HP Fire (or EQ to an extenet) since it is immune to Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed, plus 4 times resistant to Giga Drain. Even though it can do nothing back to Mega Venusaur.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 94-112 (26.7 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 91-109 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-121 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 117-138 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 84-99 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B: Ice Beam 25.5 - 30.1%

Fire Blast / Flamethrower -lacking Garchomp/Mega Garchomp also get walled.

Ferrothorn checks so many things, and while counters fewer things, it still counters a lot.

Definitely A-

 

[Colonial]

I think the scarf set is also very viable, Fire- Blast dents a lot of the steel types in the meta, U-Turn gives huge momentum, Draco Meteor hurts like a mother, and Dark Pulse is extremely strong (I think Specs is the strongest in the meta? Not sure ...) and with the steel- nerf, it is as spammable as last gen if not more (Dammit fairy types).

It has 98 speed, but what really shines for Hydriegon is his wallbreaking ability, superpower + Draco Meteor can wallbreak a lot of walls with LO, Dark Pulse + Fire Blast add to the wallbreaking ability, after having -1/-1/-2 you have to switch, but it's, sometimes, very worth losing momentum.

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 380-447 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 187-221 (61.5 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 251-296 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 153-183 (42 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Other than Chansey (Mega Venusaur will die to Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor, Draco Meteor + Superpower has a good chance to KO Blissey) , Hydreigon can 2HKO most of the walls, and of course Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Skarmory, will get OHKO-ed by LO Fire Blast (LO doesn't even matter really)

Hydreigon does indeed have 4MSS, but it's a very good wallbreaker that is very versatile.

Agreeing on B rank for Hydreigon.



I also want to support Gliscor for at least A-.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 208+ Def Gliscor: 150-177 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

First of all, I run 244 HP / 208+ Def / 56 Spe, as you only need 56 speed EVs to outspeed Adamant max speed Bisharp.

For Talonflame, first you Knock off, then you protect, that's half of the damage Talonflame inflicted is gone, then use Toxic, then protect, and Talonflame will eventually die from recoil and toxic. And that is Adamant CB talonflame gentlemen.

Gliscor also loves hitting the likes of Gengar, Rotom-W, Flying- type, Lati@s, w/ Knock off on the switch in. Knock off is GREAT utility AND decent damage from a Gliscor.

Unlike last gen, Gliscor can actually do something to Skarmory, Knock off, which is very crippling on a wall like him, same with Ferrothorn and many other steel- types.

Toxistall is very very good, I use Gliscor on ~90% of my teams and it so good.

While some will disagree with this, Gliscor is versatile, Ice fang and Fire Fang will surprise the likes of Ferrothorn, Scizor, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, etc. As the latter 4 like to come in on Gliscor (especially Mega Scizor w/ Roost, because it can tank EQ like it's nothing), and SD Garchomp will come a LOT of times on Gliscor.

I'm very experienced with Gliscor, definitely A-.



Let me rephrase this:

Ferrothron did lose the resistance to Dark- and Ghost-, but the very useful new resistance of Fairy- is very good, alongside the resistance of Water-, Steel-, Dragon-, and Rock-, is even more amazing, not to mention the resistance of electric which means it's tanking Volt switches, and Rotom-W specifically.

All Rotom-W can do to a ferrothorn is burn, while you can Leech Seed, set up rocks, and even Spikes.
Becoming the 2nd best spore/Sleep powder-abosrber pokemon in the metagame, not to mention the 2nd best wall immune to that, and one of the most amazing stall pokemons.

Ferrothorn also blocks Mega Venusaurs that do not carry HP Fire (or EQ to an extenet) since it is immune to Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed, plus 4 times resistant to Giga Drain. Even though it can do nothing back to Mega Venusaur.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 94-112 (26.7 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Shield Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 91-109 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 102-121 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 117-138 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-172 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 84-99 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B: Ice Beam 25.5 - 30.1%

Fire Blast / Flamethrower -lacking Garchomp/Mega Garchomp also get walled.

Ferrothorn checks so many things, and while counters fewer things, it still counters a lot.

Definitely A-

You calc'd Aegislash-Shield, not Blade.


252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 169-200 (48 - 56.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[RufflesPro]

That's my bad.

 

[Baharoth]

Ferrothorn checks so many things, and while counters fewer things, it still counters a lot.

Definitely A-

I dont know. He has no recovery at all and has to worry alot about random fire coverage on things he is supposed to wall. Against Rotom-w its not as easy as u make it look, ferro hates burn even more than mega venu, yes he has leech seed but when the opponent switches u have to use it again and again, that limits the things u can do severly just to keep it alive.

In a world where stuff like Chansey and Hippowdon are only A- i dont think that ferro deserves the same rank. If the 2 end up in A maybe but even then... having no recovery is realy a let down.

 

[RufflesPro]

I dont know. He has no recovery at all and has to worry alot about random fire coverage on things he is supposed to wall. Against Rotom-w its not as easy as u make it look, ferro hates burn even more than mega venu, yes he has leech seed but when the opponent switches u have to use it again and again, that limits the things u can do severly just to keep it alive.

In a world where stuff like Chansey and Hippowdon are only A- i dont think that ferro deserves the same rank. If the 2 end up in A maybe but even then... having no recovery is realy a let down.

Unlike Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn can really afford to run Protect, Leech Seed for 2 turns is really amazing, and it's one of the few walls that can take care of Kyurem-B,

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 296-350 (70.4 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (95 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 198-234 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

Leech Seed --> Protect --> Gyro Ball ---> Protect ---> Gyro Ball

It is true that Ferrothorn hates to be burn, but Rotom-W will 99% of the times use Volt Switch and not just hard switch, so Leech Seed --> Protect ---> Leech Seed --> Protect.

While you are getting what you are losing (not always, but sometimes you get more) and you will be forced to do a lot of mind games, and while defog hates it, it still walls a good amount of the metagame, Ferrothorn has a better typing than Hippowdon and Chansey, it resists SO many common stuff, and will easily come on switch-ins because of immunity to spore, resistances, immunity to poison, and amazing bulk.

Ferrothorn has slightly less Defense than Hippowdon, but much more SpD (without investment on SpD on both sides), and while Chansey is an amazing mixed wall, it suffers from 4MSS, Chansey has different niche than Ferro though, basically because Ferrothorn can hit very hard with -0 Speed 0 Atk Gyro Ball, and Chansey is set-up bait/is forced to switch against the likes of Kyurem-B (42 investment in HP makes your sub unbreakable by Seismic toss)

While it does get pooped on by Talonflame, Heatran, Char Y, and Char X, coming on a Leech Seed + protect is really annoying no matter what.

I'm one of the people who believed that the aforementioned pokemon + Genesect and Mega Luc were holding it in B+

 

[Max Carvalho]

Yeah but ferrothorn has some things over chansey and hippowdon: huge defenses in both sides, better defensive typing, comparing with chansey, much more offensive presence. Of course chansey can use wish and even sr to support the team while hippowdon have sr, whirlwind and slack off. Ferro is in the same level with them because of the reasons mentioned above. See hippo and pink bloobs type. They suck too much. Sure, no recovery is bad, but rotom-w isnt the best switch to ferro. It can take power whip in the switch and after the burn easily set up sr/spikes. The burn will criple with ferrothorn till the end, but he will set up hazards in rotom-w with zero difficulty. Ferrothorn has his flaws but he really needs to be in A-.

 

[Baharoth]

Unlike Mega venusaur, Ferrothorn can really afford to run Protect, Leech Seed for 2 turns is really amazing,

Thats assuming that ur opponent stays in. If he switches out u wasted a turn, gave him a free switch and took extra burn dmg so no, thats realy not a situation u wanna be in. And why would Rotom-w voltswitch if it has a chance of severly crippling ferro without much risk?

Ofc ferro has amazing typing and def stats, they make him viable. But a wall without reliable recovery is always limited to how many times it can switch in and will be worn down eventually. I am not saying that its outclassed by hippo or chansey because it surely isnt, its just that those 2 are overall better pokes so they should have a higher ranking imo.

And while i am at it, imo Chansey and Hippo both deserve A rank or at least A-. I cant even begin to understand why Skarmory is A- and those 2 are not.
Both of them are amazing mixed walls. Chansey can wall half the meta to hell and back and Hippo is an awesome SR setter, can take hits on both sides of the spectrum extremly well and has a decent offensive presence.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Walling half the metagame isn't that great when the other half can set up on you at will. Chansey gives up way too many free turns for it to be A.

 

[RufflesPro]

Thats assuming that ur opponent stays in. If he switches out u wasted a turn, gave him a free switch and took extra burn dmg so no, thats realy not a situation u wanna be in. And why would Rotom-w voltswitch if it has a chance of severly crippling ferro without much risk?

Ofc ferro has amazing typing and def stats, they make him viable. But a wall without reliable recovery is always limited to how many times it can switch in and will be worn down eventually. I am not saying that its outclassed by hippo or chansey because it surely isnt, its just that those 2 are overall better pokes so they should have a higher ranking imo.

And while i am at it, imo Chansey and Hippo both deserve A rank or at least A-. I cant even begin to understand why Skarmory is A- and those 2 are not.
Both of them are amazing mixed walls. Chansey can wall half the meta to hell and back and Hippo is an awesome SR setter, can take hits on both sides of the spectrum extremly well and has a decent offensive presence.

while that's true, if it's something like Garchomp, it will most likely stay in, also the same can be said to Chansey, on the turn she uses Protect to stall out Toxic and/or for Wish recovery, the opponent can switch and gain possible momentum, while if you don't have protect, you aren't reliably recovering and can potentially be KO-ed, at least Ferrothorn doesn't give up free turns/set-up bait as much as much as Chansey, as everything will fear either Leech Seed or Gyro ball if not both. Gyro Ball does a good amount on a lot of the metagame

 

[Max Carvalho]

I agree with hippowdon being in A- too. He has high hp and defense stats and better ofensive presence. While gyro ball is awesome, earthquake is more reliable and has better coverage. Skarmory being A- and hippowdon not is a bit weird, but this is not a valid argument anyway.

 

[alexwolf]

As many others said to you Mitchell Greer, wait until we discuss C rank Pokemon to talk about Jolteon.

Time to justify some of the changes i suggested a few pages ago:

Hippowdon : B+ ---> A-
Heracross (Mega): B ---> B+
Scolipede: B ---> B+
Slowbro: B ---> B+
Sylveon: B ---> B+
Suicune: B ---> B+
Zapdos: B+ ---> A-
Togekiss: B+ ---> B

Hippowdon: Hippowdon is pretty obvious. One of the best physical and mixed walls and an amazing supporter with Sand Stream, Stealth Rock, and Whirlwind, all of which are more than enough to justify putting it in A- rank, if not higher.

Sylveon: While Sylveon's standard Wish passing physically defensive set is a good wall that can check or counter a plethora of Pokemon from S and A rank, such as Thundurus, Deoxys-S, Kyurem-B, Latios, Latias, Greninja, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Mandibuzz, and Terrakion, and provide excellent support with Wish and Heal Bell, many people overlook the Choice Specs set. To give you an example of Choice Specs Hyper Voice's power, it 2HKOes 252 HP Mega Scizor after SR 60% of the time and always 2HKOes physically defensive Skarmory. Heatran is 2HKOed at worst by Hidden Power Ground, Mega Venusaur is 2HKOed by Psyshock (even 252 HP / 252 Def+ sets with SR up), and Aegislash is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball (even 252 HP variants), so other than Chansey and Blissey, you can't wall this thing. It is basically a stronger, bulkier, but slower Mega Gardevoir, that doesn't occupy your Mega Slot, which means that unlike Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon can still act as a good check to Pokemon such as Kyurem-B (Hyper Voice bypassed Sub so there is that too), Mandibuzz (Gardy takes too much from Foul Play), Dragonite, and Conkeldurr. Sylveon has two great sets, three if you take into account her immense usefulness on Baton Pass teams, which make it 100% deserving of the B+ rank status.

Suicune: Once this thing's checks have been weakened or gone, prepare for a world of pain. And it's not like this is hard, as if you take a look to S and A ranks, only Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy, Keldeo, and Unaware Clefable can switch into Scald without fearing a burn and beat Suicune even after a Calm Mind. Thundurus and Mega Charizard Y are weak to Stealth Rock, and all those Pokemon except from Keldeo are in general countered by Chansey, which can also cure Suicunde from sleep with Aromatherapy. Anyway, you really have to use and face Suicune to appreciate its sweeping potential, the decline of its best counters (Perish Song Celebi, Perish Song Politoed, Taunt Jellicent, BU Breloom, and Toxicroak) and the improved sleep mechanics made it a whole lot better than it was in 5th gen.

Slowbro: Slowbro deserves to be in B+ because it walls so many stuff and it just never dies, while also being quite hard to shut down, thanks to Scald and Thunder Wave. Having a single Pokemon able to check so many physical attackers, all at the same time not just a single one of them in each game, is something that almost no other defensive Pokemon in OU can do, at least not as good as Slowbro. And we all know how important such a role is in a metagame with a heavy physical bias, right? Let's check which Pokemon it checks or counters from S and A rank: Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Heatran, Mega Garchomp, Deoxys-S, Landorus-T, Talonflame, Azumarill, Dragonite, Excadrill, Mega Gyarados, Gyarados, Keldeo, Conkeldurr, Mamoswine, Terrakion. That's more than half of the physical attackers in those ranks. And if you equip it with Assault Vest, it can also check Latios, Latias, Greninja, and Landorus. And on top of this, it can also use an offensive Trick Room set to act as a decent late-game cleaner or assist slow teammates such as Mega Mawile or Mega Heracross. Also, thanks to Regenerator and its lack of completely safe switch-ins due to access to double status, it makes for an excellent option on not only balanced or defensive teams, but on offensive teams too, where Slowbro can act as a pivot by switching in and then immediately switch out to bring a teammate in without losing any health thanks to Regenerator.

 

[jbtc10]

Walling half the metagame isn't that great when the other half can set up on you at will. Chansey gives up way too many free turns for it to be A.

Thunder Waving or using Toxic on an obvious incoming set-up sweeper is hardly giving up a free turn. If anything, it's pretty much crippling something for free. So many people think they can mindlessly switch in their stuff like Mega Pinsir on Chansey to get a free Swords Dance, only to have it rendered near useless by Thunder Wave. Chansey only gives up as many free turns as you allow it to, both through the set you you give it, and the way you use her in battle. It's also quite easy to double switch with Chansey because not many Special Attackers will bother staying in on it, lest they want to get toxic stalled to death. She's definitely A level material.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Chansey is taunt bait 100% of the times. With you use thunder wave ground mon set up on her. If you use toxic steel mon set up on her. Also is the easiest thing set up substitute on chansey. She is a very bulky wall, but its set up fodder a lot of times. She can criple any pokemon in the switch with toxic and thunder wave, but, while I dont think the half of the tier can really set up on her safely, a lot of them can with ease.

 

[jbtc10]

Chansey is not taunt bait 100% of the time, as most carry Seismic Toss, which also breaks substitutes provided they aren't 101 HP ones. Things like Thundurus still easily lose to Chansey even if it carries Taunt, since it only has to Toss 3 times to bring him down and chiseling away 100 health every time something switches in certainly adds up, especially if what took it has no reliable recovery. And, a decent user of Chansey isn't going to be stupid and waste a turn T-Waving if they think a Garchomp or Excadrill is going to come in. Those are not good reasons why Chansey shouldn't be A.

 

[Baharoth]

while that's true, if it's something like Garchomp, it will most likely stay in, also the same can be said to Chansey, on the turn she uses Protect to stall out Toxic and/or for Wish recovery, the opponent can switch and gain possible momentum, while if you don't have protect, you aren't reliably recovering and can potentially be KO-ed, at least Ferrothorn doesn't give up free turns/set-up bait as much as much as Chansey, as everything will fear either Leech Seed or Gyro ball if not both. Gyro Ball does a good amount on a lot of the metagame

Thats exactly why one shouldnt use Protect to Toxic stall with Chansey. If the opponent cant harm her its better to use Seismic Toss and if he can its better to switch out. Using Protect to make sure u can heal up isnt exactly a free turn because ur doing something usefull with it. Chansey isnt giving any free turns if used correctly, same for Ferro. However, Protect stalling to get Leechseed heal while ur burned means ur not using it correctly hence ur giving free turns. Fact remains that Ferro suffers alot from burn and has no recovery.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Chansey and Blissey need to be in the same rank. (Leaning toward B+ or A-)
The fact that Chansey is higher ranked than Blissey baffles me. I know Chansey has higher physical defense, but Knock Off is everywhere, and Chansey is crippled without Eviolite whereas Blissey can function without Leftovers.

 

[Magcargo]

Chansey and Blissey need to be in the same rank. (Leaning toward B+ or A-)
The fact that Chansey is higher ranked than Blissey baffles me. I know Chansey has higher physical defense, but Knock Off is everywhere, and Chansey is crippled without Eviolite whereas Blissey can function without Leftovers.

Chansey's greater bulk is more useful then Blissey's leftovers recovery, not to mention that Chansey should not even be taking Knock offs in the first place. Besides that, chansey is only a slightly worse Blissey if it loses its eviolite. Chansey also receives greater usage is the SPL than Blissey, which shows how much more viable it is as a cleric and Wall.

 

[RufflesPro]

Chansey is not taunt bait 100% of the time, as most carry Seismic Toss, which also breaks substitutes provided they aren't 101 HP ones. Things like Thundurus still easily lose to Chansey even if it carries Taunt, since it only has to Toss 3 times to bring him down and chiseling away 100 health every time something switches in certainly adds up, especially if what took it has no reliable recovery. And, a decent user of Chansey isn't going to be stupid and waste a turn T-Waving if they think a Garchomp or Excadrill is going to come in. Those are not good reasons why Chansey shouldn't be A.

Thats exactly why one shouldnt use Protect to Toxic stall with Chansey. If the opponent cant harm her its better to use Seismic Toss and if he can its better to switch out. Using Protect to make sure u can heal up isnt exactly a free turn because ur doing something usefull with it. Chansey isnt giving any free turns if used correctly, same for Ferro. However, Protect stalling to get Leechseed heal while ur burned means ur not using it correctly hence ur giving free turns. Fact remains that Ferro suffers alot from burn and has no recovery.

Chansey suffers from 4MSS greatly, T-wave/Toxic/Wish/Seismic Toss/Protect/SR/Counter/Heal Bell

Heal Bell and Wish are almost mandatory, T-wave or toxic is also mandatory, Protect gives you momentum, counter nails you easy KOs, Seismic toss prevents taunt bait and prevents set-up bait, and SR for support.

Ferro doesn't give free turn around, because Gyro Ball doesn't mess around, with incredible bulk too. And while yes ferro doesn't like burn, since when being crippled by burn an argument for a pokemon not to move up? really?

Ferro doesn't have any meaning of recovery, but it wears down other pokemons much faster than any Chansey, between Leech Seed, Gyro Ball, Protect and a possibly Toxic or T-Wave, Ferro will not give any chance of pokemons setting up on him (Unless slow Magic Guard pokemons, but that goes for Chansey too)

I'm not saying Ferro > Chansey, but I'm definitely saying that Ferro = Chansey even though they do not have the same niche, I'm also saying Ferro = Hippo and Ferro = Skarmory, while they do have similar niches, it's the same, Ferro may only be taking ~12% off from Leech Seed, but it's getting 12% of the opposing pokemon + attack w/ Gyro Ball.

Ferro easily succeeds against most of the pokemon without fire coverage, slow, or w/ powerful fighting type.

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 338-398 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It doesn't even lose to all powerful fighting- type pokemon.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Chansey and Blissey need to be in the same rank. (Leaning toward B+ or A-)
The fact that Chansey is higher ranked than Blissey baffles me. I know Chansey has higher physical defense, but Knock Off is everywhere, and Chansey is crippled without Eviolite whereas Blissey can function without Leftovers.

There really needs to be a chansey > blissey post in the op lol.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Chansey doesnt have 4MSS. She can run wish/softboiled+ aromatheraphy+ seismic toss+ toxic/ thunder wave. The choice between those status will depends on your team and I dont feel she misses anything running this. Protect is usually a poor moove.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Chansey doesnt have 4MSS. She can run wish/softboiled+ aromatheraphy+ seismic toss+ toxic/ thunder wave. The choice between those status will depends on your team and I dont feel she misses anything running this. Protect is usually a poor moove.

Protect is only used to make recovery from Wish more reliable. Otherwise, your post is correct. Chansey doesn't have 4MSS as it can funtion just fine with Softboiled / Heal Bell / Seismic Toss / Status, but it has a lot of other good options that it COULD use at the expense of some other ability. 4MSS implies that it hates losing a move, which is not true, as Chansey doesn't mind not having Stealth Rock or Thunder Wave, they're just nice options.

 

[RufflesPro]

I would not say all of those moves listed are absolutely mandatory as you use what you want based on what your team needs more. Since when does protect give you momentum lol? It's just there to scout your opponents next move, but I think it's a terrible move to run on Chansey since it's set up bait as it is for a lot of top-tier threats and running it with Wish is inferior to Wish+Softboiled. Thunder wave and toxic should be chosen based on your team's needs running both is not mandatory. Heck there are times where I feel like both status moves aren't really needed if I have other status users already. Also counter is so niche that there has never been time where I wish really wanted it. It's like saying Mega Charizard X has 4MSS since it cannot run Fire Punch, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Will-O-Wisp, DD, SD, and Roost on the same set even though it covers a lot with the 4 moves slots given. Sure it would be nice to have all of those moves, but is it absolutely necessary? Chansey is more or less a pokemon that is used as Glue for teams that may be missing out on some sort of support.

Protect is only used to make recovery from Wish more reliable. Otherwise, your post is correct. Chansey doesn't have 4MSS as it can funtion just fine with Softboiled / Heal Bell / Seismic Toss / Status, but it has a lot of other good options that it COULD use at the expense of some other ability. 4MSS implies that it hates losing a move, which is not true, as Chansey doesn't mind not having Stealth Rock or Thunder Wave, they're just nice options.

Just 2 seconds ago your friend's argument was T-wave and Seismic toss being mandatory on Chansey, and I never said they are mandatory, I just said that they are the most viable moves, and if you are missing both T-Wave and Seismic toss you will give free turns/be set-up bait. Even though amazing cleric.

As for Protect, yes it does give momentum, to scout your opponent's move, wish more reliable, toxi-stall, mind games such as switching and HJK and so on.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

I find it really weird that Weavile isn't ranked yet. Seems like a solid B (or maybe even B+) tiered Pokemon in my eyes. Though my eyes don't account for much.

And since we're currently talking about B+/B ranks, I wonder if Smogon believes my views in that Weavile is a B ranked Pokemon?

 

[Max Carvalho]

If I am not mistaken weavile is UU but he is very strong and it can spam night slash with ease this gens since only a few mons resists to his STABS (especially klefki). Anyway, sadly, since its not in OU we cant talking about him here.

 

[Aragorn the King]

If I am not mistaken weavile is UU but he is very strong and it can spam night slash with ease this gens since only a few mons resists to his STABS (especially klefki). Anyway, sadly, since its not in OU we cant talking about him here.

No, this is viability in OU, not being OU. Manaphy is a BL pokemon, and yet is ranked A+. Weavile is also BL and is effective in OU, but just isn't as effective. It should be ranked.

Also, use Knock Off instead of Night Slash. It's so much better.