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I'm sorry, but why can't we talk about solid OU pokemon like Cloyster and Klefki but we can talk about niche UU pokemon like Zapdos?
And stop crapping all over Cloyster already, there are at least 4 other threads with solid arguments that support its effectiveness in the metagame, even on the high ladder.
See that's what's wrong. You're automatically assuming Zapdos sucks just because it's labeled a UU Pokemon. Oh so that must mean Latias and Keldeo are niche too, because they're UU? No of course not. You're completely missing the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to talk about trends that have been happening in higher level play or universal trends. Cloyster using King's Rock is not a new metagame trend, because Cloyster is barely used in the higher levels up play, and even when it is used, King's Rock is not a new item. If you look at the 1760's stats, Zapdos is OU and Cloyster is UU, further proving my point.
This is not a discussion thread that's targeted towards talking about Pokemon you yourself have seen personally getting more usage. We're discussing Pokemon or strategies that are becoming more common because they have been more successful in higher levels of play or are beginning to trend because they're adapting to the metagame. If you have nothing good to say other than that King's Rock Cloyster is good, then you're missing the entire point of the thread.
End of discussion. No more arguing, please continue on with the thread.
I am actually suprised that Salamence is still in OU. How does this thing keeps its spot so long? There are a lot more viable Dragon Dancers and Scarf Moxie isn't really useful at all. Granted, he can run other sets like special or defog, but even those are pretty much done by other pokemon.
While Zapdos is most certainly not niche, I for one believe that we should err on the side of thinking things are more viable then they really are instead of the other way around. I see no reason why both zapdos and cloyster cannot exist in the same thread and tier. I will happily defend either of these pokemon from folks who say they are not viable, cloyster primarily functions as a unique wallbreaker with kings rock that is capable of setting up when the time is right, while zapdos is a wonderful defensive mon with electric STAB, a fire type coverage move, reliable recovery, and can phase, clear hazards, volt-turn, and para when needed. This puts it on roughly the same level of versatility of rotom-w, who is a top OU mon at all levels of competetiveness.
*edit*
Gary2346 It's not like zapdos is a particularly new pokemon either. Outside of the defog buff (which is considerable, don't get me wrong) and a large number of new threats that zapdos happens to do well against, zapdos didn't really get much either. Outside of most mega's, aegi, and tflame, relatively few very strong OU pokemon are serving completely different purposes then they used to. Tornado-I has not gained anything new this gen, yet I am sure that if I had made a post about how well he works with pretty much any other OU mon(lets say Keldeo), I would be perfectly fine and could do so without breaking "the point of this topic".
This is not a discussion thread that's targeted towards talking about Pokemon you yourself have seen personally getting more usage. We're discussing Pokemon or strategies that are becoming more common because they have been more successful in higher levels of play or are beginning to trend because they're adapting to the metagame.
Not that I care, but i dont see a statement like that in the opening post, it just refers to trends in the meta and atleast for me (and probably most of the people here as well) the "meta" isnt only the top 1% of players playing in the SPL. When using such a restrictive sense of the word it should be mentioned somewhere since 99% of the people posting here dont play SPL and most of them probably dont even know the trends happening there. For them the "meta" is most likely the ladder they are playing in so they will post their experiences here.
Some people here seem to forget constantly that most users here are more "competetive casuals" and not "professionals".
just my 2 cents...
/edit @ vayu
Thats right in a sense, i just wanted to point out that there seem to be 2 completely different definitions of some very relevant terms around. Its legitimate to only consider the top 1% for the meta and the usage, however i am positiv that most people here use a different notion. The consequences are many threads "going shitty" as Gary put it. When using terms like "meta" one should specify what they mean by that, especially if they use the term so restrictive. Thats all i am saying.
Regarding your SC2 example, sure nobody cares about bronze, but here we are at a point where only high master leage matters and everything below is regarded to be newb stuff. Thats far more extreme than in Sc2.
Not that I care, but i dont see a statement like that in the opening post, it just refers to trends in the meta and atleast for me (and probably most of the people here as well) the "meta" isnt only the top 1% of players playing in the SPL. When using such a restrictive sense of the word it should be mentioned somewhere since 99% of the people posting here dont play SPL and most of them probably dont even know the trends happening there. For them the "meta" is most likely the ladder they are playing in so they will post their experiences here.
Some people here seem to forget constantly that most users here are more "competetive casuals" and not "professionals".
doesnt quite work like that, no one cares about the meta in bronze league in sc2 or LoL, same goes for the low ladder on PS. The only meta that matters is the top 1%
Lets not derail the thread please, if you want a specification here it is: Noone cares about what goes on in low ladder. We want to discuss potent threads that are used by potent players because of their potential / strengths. Cloyster is not good. Klefki is extremely niche and it is not a trend in the metagame just because people spam him for swagplay.
For good examples: See Zapdos and Bisharp + Zard Y.
I'm an average player, usually around 1450-1550 on the ladder, so these view reflect what I see on that region.
I have noticed a gradual decline in talonflame usage. I have also noticed a little more stall, and definitely more teams running no mega. In my region of the ladder, hyper offense seems to be dropping for a more bulky offense. Mega venu and AV conk are EVERYWHERE, leading to me seeing HP Flying on Thundurus every now and then.
I'm in this range too. Yeah, Conkeldurr is a plague. It's everywhere, and it's pretty annoying to fight against.
One pokemon that has been appearing A LOT is Excadrill. It seems it's become the default answer againt SR. Donphan comes second, being also fairly common. Foretress is kind of unusual and Starmie/Blastoise are pretty rare. Defoggers appear now and then, but it seems most people prefer spinners since everybody likes to use SR. Mandibuzz is becoming an endangered species.
Another thing I'm noticing is how everyone and their mother now uses Mega Pinsir. It's probably the most common set up sweeper. And usually paired with Excadrill to get rid of the rocks.
I think that the reduction of talonflame is directly related to the rise of mega pinsir. Simply put, mega pinsir is a better SD talonflame in pretty much every way imaginable. They also have similar weaknesses and strengths, meaning that it's hard to stick them in the same team.
I think that the reduction of talonflame is directly related to the rise of mega pinsir. Simply put, mega pinsir is a better SD talonflame in pretty much every way imaginable. They also have similar weaknesses and strengths, meaning that it's hard to stick them in the same team.
Not exactly.... Talonflame has the option to run items, so it doesn't even have to use SD. A CB Talonflame Brave Bird is much stronger than Mega Pinsir's unboosted Quick Attack. And it's actually quite easy to put them on the same team because they wear down each others checks and counters.
I think that the reduction of talonflame is directly related to the rise of mega pinsir. Simply put, mega pinsir is a better SD talonflame in pretty much every way imaginable. They also have similar weaknesses and strengths, meaning that it's hard to stick them in the same team.
Pinsir is probably better than SD Talon, but it's nowhere near the utility of non-boosting sets, particularly CB as Salt the Flesh said. If you want a revenge killer, than Talonflame's your bird. Talon also arguably does Double Bird better, because that instant power makes it easier for it to come in, Brave Bird a wall, and switch out again.
Running Talon also means that you can run a different excellent mega e.g Charizard. Talonflame can also have reliable recovery [Roost], act as part of a VoltTurn core [U-Turn], even make a bulky set with some combination of the aforementioned Roost, Bulk Up, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and/or Brave Bird along with Leftovers. Talonflame's actually got some pretty cool resistances that it can exploit to get the ball rolling.
Either way, you'd be hard-pressed to say that Talon and Pinsir are bad choices; they're both quite excellent in their own ways.
I certainly never said that talonflame didn't have other sets to distinguish it from pinsir, which is why I specified SD talonflame in my post as opposed to talonflame in general. It did not occur to me that mega pinsir and tflame worked well together, though it makes sense. One can only have so many flying resists on a team, and tflames secondary STAB hurts roughly half of them for quite a bit and mega pinsir's EQ covers most of the rest. Also, even resisted, BB and frustrialate hit friggen hard. Maybe not quite mega-cham HJK hard, but pretty friggen hard regardless.
I've really seen a decrease in usage of Mega Mawile. It is a really great wallbreaker, but it is too damn slow. People have caught onto this, it was really popular, and now it just isn't seen really. At least in the battles I've been playing.
I've really seen a decrease in usage of Mega Mawile. It is a really great wallbreaker, but it is too damn slow. People have caught onto this, it was really popular, and now it just isn't seen really. At least in the battles I've been playing.
Mawile still has solid usage, it hasn't gone down in my experience (and by the usage stats.)
It's slow yeah but it has Sucker Punch which, at +2, can OHKO pretty much anything that can otherwise try to revenge kill Mawile. Also, Jolly 252 speed Mawile is a really damn good lure, I've used it a ton and it can easily win games because the opponent sends out something they think will outspeed. Rotom-W is HUGE for this, they'll just try to burn it but nope. Heatran, too, you can get with Brick Break.
In general, in using and facing Mawile, it's been really threatening and hard to play around. While you know it has Sucker Punch, your opponent knows you know. Sucker Punch IMO makes it more threatening than faster threats like Mega Gardevoir, Medicham, Y-zard or Heracross that hit hard as shit but don't have good priority. Plus it has a bunch of sets; Heatran can usually counter but SubPunch beats it. Lando-T is just about the best counter but Ice Punch can be used as a coverage specifically for it. Really, Mawile is great as a wall breaker, sweeper and can be used as a lure for a good number of things.
Now, to make my post more specific, I am talking about the use of two Bird-types to form an offensive core. (Well, at least during the first half......)
First, I will discuss the premier Bird-type -- Talonflame:
Basically, Talonflame is the best revenge killer in the tier, however, it can also sweep with the support of of Mega Pinsir after it has either eliminated Talon switch-ins, or severely hindered their ability to switch-in; like Tyranitar, Heatran, Rotom-w, or Rotom-h. Now, the latter option of hindering the ability of a pokemon to switch-in more applies to the Rotoms than it does the former two. Talonflame has also been seeing more a support pokemon, as the OP mentioned. However, I am discussing the offensive core here, so I'm going to ignore support niches. Talonflame can also severely limit its own switch-ins of Rotom-w and Tyranitar with its Choice Band set's U-turn, as it 3HKOs both of these, after Stealth Rock damage is applied, of course.
The second Bird-type is one of the best sweepers in our current metagame -- Mega Pinsir:
Mega Pinsir is extremely difficult to switch into, more-over, switch into it consistently. It even has access to Swords Dance, which allows it to steam roll unprepared teams. Mega Pinsir is probably the best partner in crime for Talonflame thanks to it OHKOing Tyranitar and Heatran, it can also OHKO Rotom-w in its base form with Earthquake after SR and some residual damage, if your ability is Mold Breaker. Though, not every team wants to give up their mega slot when we have Charizard's seducing mega evolutions, so...
we have a replacement for Mega Pinsir -- Staraptor:
Staraptor is a very terrifying bird, especially while holding a Choice Band. Nothing really wants to switch into a Reckless boosted Double-Edge or Brave Bird, or even a Close Combat from this beast. The only good switch-in there is for Staraptor is Aegislash, which doesn't want Staraptor to U-turn out. Staraptor is a great partner for Talon because it really does beat anything that could switch into our favorite bird, including Rotom-w, which Pinsir can merely severely dent. Staraptor, however, got bitch slapped this gen with the introduction of Talonflame, making it the second most viable generational bird in competitive mons.
After these 3, which form amazing offensive cores with each other, more Bird-types seeing an increase in usage include Charizard, Thundurus, Landorus, Mandibuzz, and Zapdos.
Charizard is blessed as being the only pokemon in OU to have two mega evolutions.Charizard Y is currently the most used mega in OU, and is an amazing wallbreaker. Charizard X, however, is a close second. It is also, arguably, the best Dragon Dancer we have in the tier. Both of these are incredible because of the fact you won't know which mega a team is using, X or Y. The key to using Xharizard succesfully is to keep this as ambiguous as possible.
Thundurus, our newest addition to the S-rank viability, has since seen quite a spike in usage, bouncing it from just on the edge of UU to number forty-four in usage, though not quite as big as I would have liked, personally. This is highly due to the fact that people are realizing Prankster Thunder Wave is a huge momentum gainer, and Thundurus even has U-turn to go with this this. However, that is not only one thing Thundurus does successfully, it is also a phenomenal sweeper, and an excellent Special wall lure with its mixed set.
Landorus holds the record for fastest ban to Borderline I've ever seen, it took a mere 10 HOURS. That is surely an incredible feat. Soon after this occurred, people have started to toy around with it, and then realized that Landorus+Keldeo cores, along with a Pursuit user, like Bisharp/Aegislash, which have both been seeing a spike in usage, is still a great offensive core in OU.
Mandibuzz is a great pokemon this meta. It is cited as the best counter to Aegislash in the tier, even. Last gen, Mandibuzz was down in the dumps of NU. However, thanks to a huge buff, including Knock Off, Overcoat, Defog, and the Dark-type in general, Mandibuzz is now graced with enough usage to be in the OU tier. (#blessed) Other than her ability to counter Aegislash, Mandibuzz is an excellent user of Defog and Knock Off, two of the best moves this gen. Mandibuzz is also a decently fast wall that has access to the move Taunt, which is pretty amazing, and is even immune to Spore.
The last bird I want to talk about is Zapdos, which is the only pokemon in this list that is currently UU. However, this does not mean Zapdos cannot hold its own in OU, as it is one of the best Defoggers I can think of in the tier. However, a large reason for it being UU is due to the huge competition it faces from Mandibuzz, Latias, and Latios. Zapdos holds niche over all three of these pokemon in its ability to beat Bisharp, however, as it lives a Swords Dance boosted Sucker Punch, and then KOs back with Heat Wave.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 290-343 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ------- 4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 224-264 (82.6 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think that the reduction of talonflame is directly related to the rise of mega pinsir. Simply put, mega pinsir is a better SD talonflame in pretty much every way imaginable. They also have similar weaknesses and strengths, meaning that it's hard to stick them in the same team.
I'd like to argue this post, due to the fact that Talonflame and Mega Pinsir form an incredible offensive core with one another, and I'd even argue that these two's offensive core is one of the best in the metagame. Talon and MPinsir cover each others checks/counters beautifully, though not as beautifully as it could be thanks to Smogon-Laundromat, allowing for one to clear the way while the other finishes the team off, and thanks to Talon's much stronger priority in Brave Bird, Talon is usally the cleaner. Sure, mega Pinsir is a better Swords Dancer; however, Talon is seeing less usage as being a Swords Dancer, and more usage as a revenge killer or support mon. I don't think this is as direct a correlation as you're making it out to be.
I'm not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed in SPL matches and higher ladder ones too. Heatran is a really good Pokemon (has been since it came out), and it happens to check some of the best Pokemon in the tier, namely bulky DD Zard X (and to a lesser extent, Talonflame. I say lesser extent because I feel like the meta has shifted away from Flying types for the most part due to them being largely prepared for). However, I've seen many people run Earthquake Latios which can be a very effective lure for Heatran and can also weaken Pokemon like Tyranitar for Charizard Y. I mention the Charizards specifically because I think that currently, this is their meta. Latios also makes a naturally good offensive partner to them. It offers Defog support mainly, can take down threats to both Zards (Clefable and such for Zard X, Blissey/Chansey for Zard Y), and further lures in the every popular Heatran and Tyranitar, paving the way for them to sweep.
Definitely noting the Deoxys-D everywhere, but one thing I'm observing is that it seems that every special Pokemon out there runs Calm Mind these days to fight the pink blobs. I saw a Calm Mind Slowbro just the other day, never mind Espeon, Suicune, Clefable, Reun, and so on.
I mainly play UU and RU, but i have been playing ou a lot for a week now, and i have noticed some interesting things (i am not too high on the ladder around 1600). First of all the Aegislash is everywhere and strangely the most common one is the sword dance set, which isnt that great in my opinnion. Most common megas by far are Charizard and pinsir. I have also seen a lot of ferrothorns, mainly with leech seed and protect. Some great pokes like Thundurus, Landorus, Manaphy and Terrakion are completely absent, i have seen 3 thundurus in around 150 matches. Landorus and Manaphy are even more rare, i havent seen a single Lando.
I'm not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed in SPL matches and higher ladder ones too. Heatran is a really good Pokemon (has been since it came out), and it happens to check some of the best Pokemon in the tier, namely bulky DD Zard X (and to a lesser extent, Talonflame. I say lesser extent because I feel like the meta has shifted away from Flying types for the most part due to them being largely prepared for). However, I've seen many people run Earthquake Latios which can be a very effective lure for Heatran and can also weaken Pokemon like Tyranitar for Charizard Y. I mention the Charizards specifically because I think that currently, this is their meta. Latios also makes a naturally good offensive partner to them. It offers Defog support mainly, can take down threats to both Zards (Clefable and such for Zard X, Blissey/Chansey for Zard Y), and further lures in the every popular Heatran and Tyranitar, paving the way for them to sweep.
I'd just like to discuss this because Choice Specs Latios doesn't need Earthquake:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Earthquake still doesn't dent Tyranitar:
4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Because then you can either die to Pursuit or Crunch. And Heatran of course is killed by it. I think it is ok, but I still prefer Draco Meteor / Psyshock / Defog / Surf with a Life Orb, as Surf has a 95% chance to 2HKO Heatran after SR, but it can only Roar you away, it can't hurt you. Unless it is Toxic + Protect stalling. And I feel like Tyranitar is only beat by Choice Specs sets, which are very powerful, yet not the best. I just feel like Earthquake Latios is a niche move and only really useful for Heatran, it still doesn't aid beat Skarmory or Ferrothorn. I think dealing with Tyranitar is better left for teammates, but it is a great lure.
I mainly play UU and RU, but i have been playing ou a lot for a week now, and i have noticed some interesting things (i am not too high on the ladder around 1600). First of all the Aegislash is everywhere and strangely the most common one is the sword dance set, which isnt that great in my opinnion. Most common megas by far are Charizard and pinsir. I have also seen a lot of ferrothorns, mainly with leech seed and protect. Some great pokes like Thundurus, Landorus, Manaphy and Terrakion are completely absent, i have seen 3 thundurus in around 150 matches. Landorus and Manaphy are even more rare, i havent seen a single Lando.
I've been playing at the 1500s (current 1599) and I'm seeing A LOT of Thundurus and Landorus (the incarnate thundurus and both forms of Landorus). It's not uncommon to see both in the same team. Terrakion is less common but it's not that rare. Manaphy is kind of rare. I've used it for some time but didn't like it very much, seems too fragile and slow for something that wants to sweep, and I'd probably have to build my entire team around it, so I ditched it for Greninja.
What's going on with the overall high usage of deo-s in spl vs deo-d? IIRC deo-d has only been used twice while deo-s is in the double digits14 times (on the phone can't really check). Deo-S can't run an item outside of Focus Sash lest it wants to be OHKO'ed by some of the heavier hitters in the tier, thus setting up only SR. Deo-D can run Red Card to force out anything that tries to KO it or setting up on it. The force out gives it another free turn to set up Spikes. That is really the only disconnect I see from the upper ladder vs SPL, where Deo-D is used just as much as Deo-S. So I guess the usage is from the Life Orb set? It's a decent RK'er, but can't "clean up" late game compared to some scarfers because it relies upon two moves that drops its attack.
What's going on with the overall high usage of deo-s in spl vs deo-d? IIRC deo-d has only been used twice while deo-s is in the [sdouble digits[/s]14 times (on the phone can't really check). Deo-S can't run an item outside of Focus Sash lest it wants to be OHKO'ed by some of the heavier hitters in the tier, thus setting up only SR. Deo-D can run Red Card to force out anything that tries to KO it or setting up on it. The force out gives it another free turn to set up Spikes. That is really the only disconnect I see from the upper ladder vs SPL, where Deo-D is used just as much as Deo-S. So I guess the usage is from the Life Orb set? It's a decent RK'er, but can't "clean up" late game compared to some scarfers because it relies upon two moves that drops its attack.
It's a great revenge killer and general speedy attacker, and I've also been hearing good things about an offensive set with Stealth Rock (I've yet to try this one out though). Offensive Deoxys-S is also a lot easier to fit on teams than a hazard lead, because it can function on playstyles other than hyper offense, which might explain the higher usage (also iirc HO is less common in SPL so that might be part of it).
What's going on with the overall high usage of deo-s in spl vs deo-d? IIRC deo-d has only been used twice while deo-s is in the [sdouble digits[/s]14 times (on the phone can't really check). Deo-S can't run an item outside of Focus Sash lest it wants to be OHKO'ed by some of the heavier hitters in the tier, thus setting up only SR. Deo-D can run Red Card to force out anything that tries to KO it or setting up on it. The force out gives it another free turn to set up Spikes. That is really the only disconnect I see from the upper ladder vs SPL, where Deo-D is used just as much as Deo-S. So I guess the usage is from the Life Orb set? It's a decent RK'er, but can't "clean up" late game compared to some scarfers because it relies upon two moves that drops its attack.
Perhaps the best Deo-S set in this metagame is SR / Psycho Boost / Ice Beam / Superpower, which is a combo of the hazard-setting and revenge-kiilling capabilities that Deo-S can perform with its sets. This set has offensive and supporting utility, thus fulfilling a multi-faceted role on the team. Deo-D's role is hazard stacking. Hazard-stacking HO is much less common in SPL for various reasons (most notably the prevalence of Defog stall), so Deo-D is less-used.
Why is Mandibuzz getting so rare? I ask because mine isn't as useful as it used to be, but I can't think of anything that can take its place due to its typing.
