Zapdos [QC: 0/3]

[Bravadorado]

Tail Wind not viable at all? I think it should deserve a mention in OO. Tail Wind is irremovable sticky web for 5 turns that doesn't boost opposing Bisharp. I feel like it has some uses?

 

[Yuri]

Zapdos' moveslots are crowded as is, it really doesn't have time for Tailwind, specially when it already gets Agility.

 

[Magnemite]

All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. forestflamerunner, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!

 

[forestflamerunner]

alright I'm working through this process making the thing look ready for on site. Please let me know if I am making any formatting/grammer mistakes as i go along so i can correct them in a timely manner

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Why exactly did you make the primary EV spread Specially Defensive? The main things that Zapdos checks, most notably Pinsir and Talonflame, are Physical attackers.

 

[alexwolf]

And Bisharp.

 

[Colonel M]

This was written in Mega Lucario / Genesect area where SpD Zapdos made a little more sense than physically defensive Zapdos.

Now, of course, that has changed with the banning of these two. Physically Defensive should be the primary spread.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Hey, I think this is overall a pretty good analysis. However, I think we need to change the spread back to the Physical Defensive spread. I understand Jukain opted for a Specially Defensive spread, but it was mainly to tank hits from Special Lucario, which is obviously banned now. Without Physical Def investment, Pinsir finds it much easier to smash past Zapdos, so it's probably best to go back to Physically Defensive.

In the team mates section, I'd mention that Chansey is one of the best partners, and in general it's better than Blissey. Keldeo is a pretty good partner for it's ability to smash through bulky Ground types that can often switch in on Zapdos, while Zapdos easily switches into Flying types that scare Keldeo. It also checks Mamoswine nicely as well. Speaking of Mamoswine, it's also a great partner for it's ability to beat the Lati twins, as well as checking Ground types.

I spoke on IRC with Colonel M and others, and we think that 32 Speed EVs should be fine to out speed Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Scizor.

Air Cutter can be put in OO for it's ability to hit Mega Venusaur for pretty solid damage, but it has little use outside of that.

Also, please make sure you remove any mention of Genesect or Lucario.

n_n

 

[Swamp Link]

I suggest an alternative EV spread. 248 HP / 64 Def / 164 SpD / 32 Spe @ Calm Nature.

This allows Zapdos to be an effective switch into Aegislash, Bisharp, Landorus, Pinsir, and Thundurus, all Pokemon that it is often used to deal with.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 131-155 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 164+ SpD Zapdos: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 164+ SpD Zapdos: 127-151 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 164+ SpD Zapdos: 135-159 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Zapdos: 234-277 (61 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The last two Zapdos outspeeds and can Roost against, so it's not an issue that it can be 2HKO'd. But the 64 Defense EVs help Zapdos never be 2HKO'd by Pinsir after Stealth Rock and to never be OHKO'd by Bisharp after Stealth Rock while not detracting from special bulk significantly so that you can still wall most Landorus, Thundurus, and Aegislash. If you don't run any Defense EVs, you run the risk of being KO'd by Pinsir and Bisharp. I would argue these are the five most prominent Pokemon that Zapdos deals with consistently, so it's important to be able to take them, and Zapdos needs the extra Defense EVs to do so. I don't really see any reason not to.

Zapdos needs a Special Defense stat of at least 275 to not be 2HKO'd by Landorus' Psychic after Rocks. It needs a Defense stat of at least 222 to not be 2HKO'd by Mega Pinsir's Return after Rocks. A Calm Nature is most efficient to achieve this, so you can run either the above spread, or you can shift an additional 28 EVs from Special Defense to Defense. If you do that, your Special Defense will still be sufficient and your Defense will be a little above necessary. But I prefer the above, and I think it's the best spread.

 

[indian]

i have been using Swamp Link's spread and i must say that it is one of the best zapdos set currently. the ability to take on both the huge physical and special threats simultaneously is huge. but why are using 32 speed evs instead of the usual 16 evs. just dump those evs in special defense.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Yeah, I agree that Zapdos should be running 16 Speed EVs, since it loses to Jolly Tyranitar anyway. It needs every point of Defense that it can get.

 

[Starfall11]

Why does Zapdos run any speed EVs to begin with? Are there any significant threats it needs to outspeed? It isn't OHKOing Tyranitar anytime soon...

 

[forestflamerunner]

I have a big test coming up so I wont be able to update this until monday. Once i get a chance I will revamp the analysis in response to the recent bans

EDIT: Im going to need a couple more days to get some things in order. Sorry for the delay

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Why does Zapdos run any speed EVs to begin with? Are there any significant threats it needs to outspeed? It isn't OHKOing Tyranitar anytime soon...

Bisharp

 

[CyclicCompound]

We were talking about this on IRC today with a few others (including Jukain and AccidentalGreed), and we came to the conclusion that Zapdos shouldn't really be used unless it's for Defog. Otherwise, there are better Pokemon that for the most part perform the same duties that Zapdos does; at any rate, should Zapdos be a perfect fit, it is a great user of Defog that would otherwise relieve another Pokemon of its duties. In other words, Defog should be slashed on its own.
In fact, it's even in the OP's overview:

Unfortunately, Zapdos is held back by a nasty SR weakness which basically means if you are not running Defog you might as well run Rotom-W.

After going over it, we decided this is what the set should look like:

Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Roost
move 3: Defog
move 4: Heat Wave / Toxic / U-turn
ability: Pressure
item:Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
nature: Bold

Thunderbolt over Volt Switch and Discharge because you OHKO Mega Pinsir, which is invaluable. Heat Wave is now slashed with Toxic and U-turn; it's the main slash because it's still really good, but Zapdos is still decent at Toxic stalling a lot of Pokemon, and U-turn allows it to grab momentum on a predicted switch (U-turn over Volt Switch because you can switch out of Ground-types that way). We dropped HP Ice because hitting Garchomp and Landorus can be cool, but there are usually better things Zapdos can be doing with its time, especially when Garchomp/Landorus/Landorus-T can't even be OHKO'd by the move.

EDIT: Made the spread physically defensive.

 

[Fuzznip]

Physically defensive Zap is more useful, though. Doesn't matter if it can take better hits against Landorus since you're not using HP Ice.

 

[Colonel M]

With shit like Mega Pinsir running rampant I have to agree with Fuzznip. The optional spread seems good to mention in the Set Details but I think max Def is the way to go at the moment.

 

[alexwolf]

You need too much SpD investment to avoid the 2HKO from Landorus, and as Fuzznip said you can't really do anything back to it. The main set should be:

Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Thunderbolt / Discharge
move 2: Roost
move 3: Defog
move 4: Heat Wave
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
nature: Bold

I wouldn't slash Heat Wave with anything, as it is a must in order to counter Bisharp, and is also useful to beat SD Scizor, SR Ferrothorn (which can otherwise outstall you), Excadrill, and do more damage to Aegislash. Toxic and HP Ice are ok alternatives though, which can be mentioned in 'Moves'.

I don't know if specially defensive should have its own set or just get a Set Details mention, but i am fine with both options.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Just a quick nitpick, but I'd just run a full 252 HP on Zapdos. 248 HP does cause you to lose 1 less HP in Stealth Rock damage, but it also causes you to recover 1 less HP in Leftovers recovery. That extra point of Leftovers recovery will quickly make up for the extra point in Stealth Rock damage plus some, so it's the most optimal.

 

[Yuri]

Discharge shouldn't be an option with zero SpA EVs as it cannot OHKO Mega Pinsir at 100% HP:
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 228-270 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 258-306 (94.8 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

A small SpA investiments allows for a much better chance at an OHKO:
40 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 266-314 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

But Discharge still sucks:
40 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-282 (86.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Irrelevant for Bisharp:
40 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 230-272 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Mega Pinsir still can't touch you if you borrow those EVs from Defense:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Zapdos: 102-121 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- 55.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Bisharp still puts you on a tight spot if Zapdos switches into Knock Off. Gind Mames with Roost/Swords Dance.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 175-208 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 146-173 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anywhere from 83.7% to 99.4%.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Zapdos: 183-216 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Zapdos: 152-179 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anywhere from 87.3% to 103%.

Zapdos is fucked anyway if either Bisharp or Pinsir Swords Dances while you switch into rocks:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 198-233 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 352-415 (91.9 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Jukain]

alexwolf, while I appreciate your input, I think your set is just wrong. First of all, you totally ignore alternatives to Heat Wave (how the hell is Zapdos countering Bisharp???) that have been used by players involved with making CC's set and in SPL. HP Ice is silly too, there's literally 0 reason to run it -- it's just way too weak and has little relevant threat coverage. Yuri is 100% right about Discharge -- this is why we chose not to slash it in that set. Toxic cripples so many defensive and offensive answers to Zapdos, and U-turn lets it pivot about very well, making it much more difficult to take advantage of and fit better onto balanced teams with more of an offensive bite, that don't want to keep losing momentum with Zapdos. Both are very good, slash-worthy options. Go with CC's set and a physically defensive spread (which we agreed upon but wasn't included fsr).

 

[Fuzznip]

Definitely no Discharge slash. I lost my flippin' OST game because I was 20% short of OHKOing Mega Pinsir, who then proceeded to sweep me. I also wouldn't consider Heat Wave to be absolutely mandatory, but I feel as though it's the best option in any case. It provides valuable coverage on too many threats, such as Bisharp, Aegislash, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Breloom, Shaymin, and even Mega Abomasnow no matter how relevant or not it is nowadays.

I don't really think U-turn is that good on Zapdos, though. It's typically going to want to use its free turns to either Defog, Roost, or hit stuff pretty hard with Tbolt. You don't really lose momentum with Zapdos because of Defog and how it still hits stuff hard with good coverage. I can't see it being any better than Heat Wave or Toxic.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Definitely no Discharge slash. I lost my flippin' OST game because I was 20% short of OHKOing Mega Pinsir, who then proceeded to sweep me.

For what it's worth, these calculations may be something to think about if one of Zapdos' primary roles would be to counter Pinsir:

0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 258-306 (94.8 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 272-324 (100.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As Yuri suggested, displacing some bulk for power in order to guarantee the OHKO may be worth it, as long as doing that would not interfere with any specific attack that Zapdos needs to live.

 

[alexwolf]

alexwolf, while I appreciate your input, I think your set is just wrong. First of all, you totally ignore alternatives to Heat Wave (how the hell is Zapdos countering Bisharp???) that have been used by players involved with making CC's set and in SPL. HP Ice is silly too, there's literally 0 reason to run it -- it's just way too weak and has little relevant threat coverage. Yuri is 100% right about Discharge -- this is why we chose not to slash it in that set. Toxic cripples so many defensive and offensive answers to Zapdos, and U-turn lets it pivot about very well, making it much more difficult to take advantage of and fit better onto balanced teams with more of an offensive bite, that don't want to keep losing momentum with Zapdos. Both are very good, slash-worthy options. Go with CC's set and a physically defensive spread (which we agreed upon but wasn't included fsr).

Heat Wave does 82% damage minimum to 4 HP Bisharp, a big chance to OHKO after SR and 1 LO round, while Zapdos outspeeds and takes 76 - 89.5% from Adamant +2 LO Sucker Punch. In general, Heat Wave is what prevents Bisharp from easily switching into Defog, as even if it does switch into Defog, you can then hit it for 82% damage minimum.

I am ok with Toxic getting slashed after Heat Wave, i just think that Heat Wave is by far the superior option.

As for Hidden Power Ice, it's nice with a specially defensive spread to immediately threaten Landorus, prevent Garchomp from setting up on you, and 2HKO Landorus-T and Dragonite, which you can check with a physically defensive spread. Not main set-worthy of course, but good enough for 'Moves' imo.

U-turn is ok to pivot through Ground-types, but i would rather cripple them with Toxic. I am ok with it getting a 'Moves' mention though.

As for Discharge, i forgot it can't OHKO Mega Pinsir, so sorry about that guys, definitely not main set material.

Finally, both me and CC have the same spread btw.

 

[Ash Borer]

I agree with Alex that Heat Wave is excellent for Stopping Bisharp from walking all over you, and with a just slightly bit of residual damage (considering Bisharp runs LO more often that anything else) you can OHKO it, and tank its sucker punch. Even if you dont techinically counter it, it does work.