XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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galvantula doesn't really care about losing a moveslot because the other three moves that he's ever going to run is thunder, bug buzz and hidden power ice/grass. volt switch might be worth a mention, but galvantula works best as a suicide lead (so why would you want to use volt switch on a suicide lead is beyond me)

shuckle is pretty much there mostly because he doesn't die instantly like every other sticky web user and he can do weird stuff like encore or toxic infestation trapping.

also leavanny needs to fuck off from the list (knock off + web is illegal and ps doesn't seem to give a shit atm). yes i know its d-rank but that's just too generous when its best moveset is illegal
 

Punchshroom

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Finally, I think Liepard needs to be move to C-/D as well.

Liepard is another Pokemon who has had its role completely outclassed by a new Pokemon in the tier. With the introduction of Klefki, Liepard no longer remains the best user of SubSwagger. Klefki has a better defensive typing and better bulk, allowing her to more easily switch in, as well as live hits if the opponent is able to break through confusion. The only niche Liepard even has anymore is to be used in tandem with Klefki, which is a pretty niche and luck-based strategy. Once again, Liepard has fallen from its grace due to new additions to the tier, and as such needs to be moved far down as well.
Klefki dropping into UU has had nothing to do with Liepard at all. Liepard's actual niche is Prankster Encore + U-turn, a niche it shares with Whimsicott, except it trades Whimsicott's better defensive typing for greater offensive presence in STAB Foul Play. SwagPlay never made a Pokemon better (ex: Sableye), it was just another option it could use, but it doesn't impact its overall ranking.
 

KM

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So my plea to bring Qwilfish to the list somewhere seemed to be fruitless the first try around. Given the recent meta shift, I thought I'd try again.

I suppose the easiest way to go around this is to start at the dubious assumption that Qwilfish was so horribly affected by the generation shift that he went all the way from a B+ ranking last gen all the way down to not even deserving a place on this list. Let's just assume that his niche as a bulky water type who can set up hazards and provide a great deal of utility was completely replaced by that new sixth gen bulky water that can also set up hazards and provide a great deal of utility now what was the poke called I can't recall for the life of me OH WAIT IT DOESN'T EXIST.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system...

Whether or not Qwilfish got seriously better or worse at the generation shift is a question that could go either way. One of the physical attackers he struggled with the most (Bisharp) was promptly banned, but the general physical power spike and introduction of new physical threats that Qwilfish can check, but not counter (Hawlucha, Crawdaunt) are certainly somewhat compelling arguments as to Qwilfish becoming marginally less effective. One could also cite the introduction of a new Physically Defensive Spiker in Chesnaught, and this too is somewhat valid. However, they do fill completely different roles as far as countering pokes and Chesnaught certainly isn't removing Qwilfish of it's niche. The last valid argument to Qwilfish becoming less effective would be the widespread distribution of Defog eliminating some of his effectiveness, as well as the buffing of physical dark type attacks and their presence in the tier, making Qwilfish less of an effective blind switch-in to all physical threats, as he does take hefty damage from some of them.

At the same time though, Qwilfish hasn't lost its effectiveness. Fire and Fighting type physical attacks are still very much present in the tier, and Qwilfish is still an extremely effective check/counter to various physical threats, including but not limited to Victini, Darmanitan, Entei, Heracross, Arcanine, Mienshao, and Hawlucha. The introduction of fairy type could even be looked at as a positive, as Qwilfish has the ability to do hefty damage to threats like Florges with poison jab, and they can't do as much to him in return because of resistance.

Put simply, Qwilfish was not affected by the tier shift any significant amount more than the other presiding bulky waters - Suicune, Slowbro, Milotic, Swampert, etc. All of these pokes seemed to have at least stayed within reasonable distance of their ranking last tier, dropping at most by a full rank or so. Yet, Qwilfish is still nowhere to be seen.

Finally, I'd like to talk about the benefits Qwilfish received from yesterday's tier shift. Most notable was the banishment of Zapdos and Latias from the tier. Both of these pokes were defensive, yet had enough offensive pressure to do massive damage to Qwilfish. More importantly, they were two of the premium defoggers in the tier, leaving the much more manageable Crobat, Mew, and Empoleon behind.

"But Kitten, look at all the rapid spinners that came in ._." Yes. This is true. The difference is that rapid spin is generally much easier to deal with on stall teams, who almost always carry an effective ghost to stop them. Trevenant, for example, who dropped into the tier yesterday, works wonderfully with Qwilfish, benefitting from the passive damage of his hazards while racking up his own with burn and leech seed damage, blocking spins for him, and absorbing most of his weaknesses as well. Besides, there's a massive difference that is sort of harder to quantify. Before the tier shift, if a Zapdos switched in as you were setting up spikes, there was immediately tremendous offensive pressure, as the Zapdos could obviously do massive damage to you. Your thought was less about trying to switch into something to block the removal of the hazards (which was impossible anyway) and more about not dying in one hit. The same is not true when a Forretress, Hitmontop, or Tentacruel switches in, as they hold very little offensive pressure against Qwilfish, allowing for momentum to be built up much more easily.

In conclusion, Qwilfish deserves to at least be around C rank. He really wasn't affected too negatively by the tier shift, and so he should still be considered as effective as he was in the previous generation. In light of the recent changes yesterday, Qwilfish has become massively more effective than he was previously, and I would personally place him at a solid B Rank.

P.S. Any criticism, discussion, or arguments are absolutely welcome. It's possible that I'm completely blinded by my devotion to the spiky poison fish, but I really don't see how it could be justified that Qwilfish not be on the list whatsoever. If you think you can tell me why, I'd be happy to find out.
 
galvantula doesn't really care about losing a moveslot because the other three moves that he's ever going to run is thunder, bug buzz and hidden power ice/grass. volt switch might be worth a mention, but galvantula works best as a suicide lead (so why would you want to use volt switch on a suicide lead is beyond me)

shuckle is pretty much there mostly because he doesn't die instantly like every other sticky web user and he can do weird stuff like encore or toxic infestation trapping.

also leavanny needs to fuck off from the list (knock off + web is illegal and ps doesn't seem to give a shit atm). yes i know its d-rank but that's just too generous when its best moveset is illegal
Galvantula gets Giga Drain, just sayin'
(gdi drop to RU so I can sweep with dat coverage)

Yeah i support Qwilfish for B or B- rank. It is an excellent pokemon for offensive teams to deal with Fire types and still have a decent speed and utility with Spikes and Thunder Wave.
It also has Haze to prevent setup sweepers and its Intimidate is really useful when foddering it off. Its last tool is Taunt which is rare for a water type to prevent slower Defoggers like Empoleon and Mew if speed invested to remove hazards and slower setters like Forretress to set up alongside it. Qwilfish has a big 4MSS as it wants Waterfall, Poison Jab, Spikes, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Haze, Pain Split, Toxic Spikes, Destiny Bond and even Explosion in a suicide lead set but they are (almost) all great options and show how versatile it is. Definitely somewhere in B rank.
The thing is, Qwilfish has too many good moves and suffers from the biggest 4MSS I've ever seen.
However I support it for B- because it has a lot of options to offers (Taunt+(T)Spikes is a great combination as it is actually quite fast) and with Intimidate it can function as a quite solid Physical Wall. Thunder wave is great on more bulky teams which often appreciate Spikes as well.
It lacks recovery though, which sucks.
 
Galvantula gets Giga Drain, just sayin'
(gdi drop to RU so I can sweep with dat coverage)



The thing is, Qwilfish has too many good moves and suffers from the biggest 4MSS I've ever seen.
However I support it for B- because it has a lot of options to offers (Taunt+(T)Spikes is a great combination as it is actually quite fast) and with Intimidate it can function as a quite solid Physical Wall. Thunder wave is great on more bulky teams which often appreciate Spikes as well.
It lacks recovery though, which sucks.
fuk
given that its 1am when i wrote that i knew i'd make a mistake somehow

also qwilfish gets pain split iirc
 
Klefki dropping into UU has had nothing to do with Liepard at all. Liepard's actual niche is Prankster Encore + U-turn, a niche it shares with Whimsicott, except it trades Whimsicott's better defensive typing for greater offensive presence in STAB Foul Play. SwagPlay never made a Pokemon better (ex: Sableye), it was just another option it could use, but it doesn't impact its overall ranking.
Even this set isn't enough for Liepard to be B IMO. Liepard's terrible defenses mean it can't switch out into very many attacks, and Foul Play can be a hit-or-miss move depending on the opponents attack stat. Sure, it probably works well against physical sweepers, but Whimsicott overall plays that role much better. Liepard still seems like a C+ mon to me.
 

EonX

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mertyville , while I have yet to use Entei since the new tier shifts, I can say that it is a really cool threat. However, I think the primary reason it's currently B+ rank would be for this reason:

OP on B rank mons said:
Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Fact of the matter is, you've also got Victini, Darmanitan, and Chandelure all sitting here in UU. Victini has better coverage with Bolt Strike, and Darmanitan and Chandelure hit much harder. Entei's a very good mon in my experience, but it generally just gets overshadowed by its competition in UU. Otherwise, it's perfectly viable and quite dangerous with that 50% burn chance from Sacred Fire.
 
The main reason why I really don't think Entei is outclassed is because it can cripple walls for the rest of the match with Sacred Fire's burn rate. Darmanitan and Victini might hit harder/have better coverage, but Entei has that specific niche.

For example, Darmanitan can break walls left and right, but if you go for, say, a Flare Blitz on a Slowbro, it can take the hit relatively well. If Slowbro gets burnt by Sacred Fire, on the other hand, it's much more manageable ahead in the match.

I think it deserves A- at least.
 

EonX

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Yeah, I wouldn't be opposed to Entei moving up a little. In fact, I'd support it. (shoulda clarified more, but I was a bit more intent on answering the posed question) As I eluded to, I have had pretty good success with Entei. Life Orb sets hit pretty dang hard while AV sets are surprisingly bulky and can stand up to a decent amount of punishment. It's also got good Speed for an AV user and Sacred Fire can patch up Entei's physical bulk by burning incoming physical attackers. Here's some rather extreme calcs for how bulky AV Entei actually is. (this uses the same spread I have for the AV set in my discussion thread on Entei)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 242-283 (65.2 - 76.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 130-153 (35 - 41.2%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 178-210 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 202-238 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 205-244 (55.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 133-157 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And these are just against some of the strongest / most dangerous special attackers in the tier. Even Nidoking would need SR support to outright OHKO AV Entei! Just imagine how well it holds up against special attackers that actually lack a boosting item or super effective move (or both!) So, yeah, I definitely support A- for Entei, maybe even A rank for the fact that its one of the few Fire-types that can be defensive without giving up a lot of offensive presence.
 
I was actually going to mention Entei's bulk too. It's not as bulky as Victini, but

1) It's main STAB has no drawbacks and
2) The high chance on burns technically increases its bulk, as mentioned by @EonX

Not only does it increase its overall durability, but it means Entei can stay in and spam its STAB for longer (while Darmanitan has recoil on Flare Blitz and Victini has stat drops from V-Create).

It also means that Entei is a better candidate for Assault Vest (as already mentioned) and can also use choice items and lock itself into Sacred Fire (Choice Band more especifically, as it avoids the Life Orb recoil and hits like a truck).

I also support it for A- or even A, as it is partially outclassed by its fellow physical Fire-type wallbreakers at the very worst, and works better in some teams.
 

Ununhexium

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damn i was gonna mention entei's bulk too

you could run a defensive pseudo-sub will-o-wisp with sub, sacred fire, and two other moves that i cant think of right now because i havent used it much.

I support A- because while it is partially outclassed offensively (like fast), it can run a bulky offense or just a bulky set with its powerful STAB sacred fire
 
To be honest, if I want to have a physical fire type that can cripple switch ins, I would rather use Offensive Flame Plate Arcanine with Will-O-Wisp. Entei has a niche of being able to use AV to take special blows better, but it cannot take physical blows as well as Arcanine thanks to Intimidate. A major advantage or Arcanine is its access to Morning Sun, not letting it to be worn down as fast as Entei. While Entei has main STAB that cripple switch ins, it usually cannot outlast them thanks to lack of recovery and extreme hazard weakess to take advantage of checks being weakened. I don't really like its defensive set when compared with Arcanine and Offensive sets are outdone without a question. B+ Rank suits Entei.
 
mertyville , while I have yet to use Entei since the new tier shifts, I can say that it is a really cool threat. However, I think the primary reason it's currently B+ rank would be for this reason:



Fact of the matter is, you've also got Victini, Darmanitan, and Chandelure all sitting here in UU. Victini has better coverage with Bolt Strike, and Darmanitan and Chandelure hit much harder. Entei's a very good mon in my experience, but it generally just gets overshadowed by its competition in UU. Otherwise, it's perfectly viable and quite dangerous with that 50% burn chance from Sacred Fire.
It is true, that there are other more powerful hitting Fire Typs with better coverage, but non of them put as much offensive pressure to the opponent as Entei with Sacred Fire. You really don't need the coverage at all.
Add in Extreme Speed, a powerful priority only Arcanine really has and there you go.
Speaking of him, Arcanine relies more on its bulk, intiminate and Will-O-Wisp, that it can't do the damage output Entei can in addition to crippling.
 
arcanine is better than entei, but no one mentioned the real reason for that; recovery. sure, morning sun is an extremely inferior recover version, but all entei has is... rest. also, arcanine coverage is crunch, wild charge, close combat; entei has stone edge and bulldoze lol? B rank is the pokemon who are partially outclassed but still have a niche (in this case, sacred fire), entei fits in well.
 
Arcanine is better than Entei for coverage and then, in a distant second, recovery. We've got some insanely good clerics in UU at the moment, so while Morning Sun is unequivocally better than Rest it's not as bad as it usually is. Entei was even better before Chansey and Latias, probably the two best Wish passers, went to OU. Having access to Close Combat, Wild Charge, and Crunch (in that order) is what really puts Arcanine over Entei. Entei has superior stats nearly across the board (outright better HP, Attack, Defense, and Speed, and his special bulk is near if not better thanks to his much superior HP stat). Entei would be a genuine OU threat if it had Arcanine's coverage, getting walled cold by Heatran and Chandelure and Slowbro is what's doing him in, not a lack of access to Morning Sun which would pressure (heh) his already current 4MSS.
 
With the departure of Chansey and Zapdos, Mega Manectric has become even better than it already used to be. The two leaving Pokémon are its greatest counters and it can pretty much deal with every newcomer in the scene.
Thunderbolt/Volt Switch: Tentacruel, Starmie and Cloyster.
Overheat: Trevenant, Forretress, Klefki and Galvantula.
Hidden Power Ice: Trevenant and Salamence.
Sableye and Smeargle can't switch into it, especially Smeargle.

None of these Pokémon can safely switch nor stay in with this amazing coverage it harnesses, it can soften up Salamence, Cloyster and Trevenant and its best aspect - its versatility - is still second to none.
With all this having been said, I nominate Mega Manectric for A+ or even S Rank.
 
I think you mean the departure of Chansey and Latias. Zapdos never did much to Manectric, since it's hit neutrally by Manectric's STAB. That being said, yeah, it can do some nasty work to all the new Pokemon in the tier. Sableye can burn it, but that's not stopping it from getting 2HKOd by Thunderbolt after Rocks. Best it can do is Recover-stall after burning, and that's just begging for a random crit/paralysis.
 
I think you mean the departure of Chansey and Latias. Zapdos never did much to Manectric, since it's hit neutrally by Manectric's STAB. That being said, yeah, it can do some nasty work to all the new Pokemon in the tier. Sableye can burn it, but that's not stopping it from getting 2HKOd by Thunderbolt after Rocks. Best it can do is Recover-stall after burning, and that's just begging for a random crit/paralysis.
I think it was more the fact that Zapdos gave Mega Manetric competition for an Electric-type than that it checked/countered it.

Anyways, I definitely agree with Mega Manetric for A+, it's amazing speed, power, coverage, momentum-gaining abilities, and access to Intimidate make it an extremely deadly force that can do massive damage while also gaining serious momentum for the team.
 

EonX

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Not sure how Entei is walled by Chandelure (Stone Edge yo) but I can see the opposition to Entei rising up. I mean, it seems like most Fire-types outclass it in some way. However, let me raise a point here. Entei is the only Fire-type in the tier that has the ability to go for a more defensive role without losing massive amounts of power. Sure, Arcanine can definitely tank physical hits well with Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate. But to do this, it must sacrifice a lot of firepower. Victini and Darmanitan can't opt to tank hits for very obvious reasons. Chandelure has terrible HP and its defensive typing leaves a fair bit to be desired with a weakness to Dark- and Ghost-type moves added on to the typical Fire-type weaknesses. However, since Entei already has no reliable recovery, a great base 115 HP, and already being forced to use Adamant, it can use Assault Vest to go a bit more defensive without losing a lot of firepower. It can still RK shit with ESpeed. It can still deal solid damage with Sacred Fire. Even if SR is down, virtually no special attacker will OHKO Entei while it will 2HKO most in return with a combination of Sacred Fire + ExtremeSpeed.
Now, does this remind you of an argument I brought up for something else? It should. The same way that Mega Manectric has great flexibility in one set is the same thing Entei has with an Assault Vest set. It can go defensive like Arcanine without losing a ton of firepower. Arcanine is slightly better as a pure defensive Fire-type while Darmanitan, Victini, and Chandelure can hit harder overall. However, Entei blends this into one with an Assault Vest set that gives it solid power and better bulk than you would originally think. And if you still want to eshew bulk in favor of firepower, you can use Life Orb or Choice Band. Honestly, I've used AV Entei more than any other Fire-type in the tier for this reason: it can do so many things with that one set. It can tank brutal hits and retaliate. It can revenge shit with ESpeed. It can break down some walls with Sacred Fire.

Also, I haven't had a chance to use Mega Manectric since the tier shift as the team I use it on also had Latias. That being said, it lost Zapdos as competition and trashes most of the newcomers in some way. Idk about S rank as I don't have much experience with it since the tier shifts, but I believed it to be A+ rank BEFORE the tier shifts, and I definitely believe that after the tier shifts since it mostly benefited from them..
 
even with chansey gone, manectric should remain where it is. it's deceptively weak, having the equivalent special attack of life orb rotom, which is simply not strong enough. mega manectric fails to:
-2HKO celebi with overheat (2 overheats are stronger than 2 flamethrowers)
-3HKO physically defensive florges
-2HKO a +1 0 spdef suicune
-OHKO mega blastoise
-OHKO a -1 victini
-OHKO a nidoking
-OHKO an assault vest tornadus-t
-etc

mega manectric is fast, but it simply lacks power. it's more of a fast scout, and just that. people mistake it for a pivot, but that's a misconcept of the definition of pivot; it's a pokemon that can check something absorb hits from that thing, and give back momentum to your team; that means it needs a slow volt switch/u-turn, not a fast one. magnezone/mega ampharos are pivots, manectric isn't; it's more of a scout. you can argue it's a cleaner, but even then it's kinda outclassed by scarf heracross, scarf salamence, mega houndoom, etc
 
even with chansey gone, manectric should remain where it is. it's deceptively weak, having the equivalent special attack of life orb rotom, which is simply not strong enough. mega manectric fails to:
-2HKO celebi with overheat (2 overheats are stronger than 2 flamethrowers)
-3HKO physically defensive florges
-2HKO a +1 0 spdef suicune
-OHKO mega blastoise
-OHKO a -1 victini
-OHKO a nidoking
-OHKO an assault vest tornadus-t
-etc

mega manectric is fast, but it simply lacks power. it's more of a fast scout, and just that. people mistake it for a pivot, but that's a misconcept of the definition of pivot; it's a pokemon that can check something absorb hits from that thing, and give back momentum to your team; that means it needs a slow volt switch/u-turn, not a fast one. magnezone/mega ampharos are pivots, manectric isn't; it's more of a scout. you can argue it's a cleaner, but even then it's kinda outclassed by scarf heracross, scarf salamence, mega houndoom, etc
Honestly, if you're trying to OHKO a lot of these Pokemon at full health, you're using Manetric wrong. Mega Manetric is a Pokemon who comes out to revenge kill weakened Pokemon. This is especially effective late-game, as most of the team is weakened to the point where Mega Manetric CAN OHKO the threats you mentioned. I also don't understand why you brought up Specially Defensive Celebi and Florges, two Pokemon who have some of the best special bulk in the tier. Mega Manetric isn't a wallbreaker, and I'm honestly not surprised he's only doing that much to these Pokemon. Mega Manetric does also have a high chance of OHKOing max Speed max Special Attack Celebi after Stealth Rocks, and any non-max Spdef max HP Celebi is 2HKO'd by Overheat.

Anyways, my point is that Mega Manetric still deserves A+, even if it isn't the strongest Pokemon in the world.
 
Sorry if I'm intruding on the discussion, but I haven't seen anyone even mention Braviary, as far as I remember. Why's he ranked? Defog + Defiant? I mean, I personally don't find it unwelcome or anything; Braviary's a really cool 'mon design-wise, but I'm just curious as to the justification.
 
My main problem with Mega-manetric is that It has major problems with jolteon, another common volt switcher (despite being pretty shitty)
Sorry if I'm intruding on the discussion, but I haven't seen anyone even mention Braviary, as far as I remember. Why's he ranked? Defog + Defiant? I mean, I personally don't find it unwelcome or anything; Braviary's a really cool 'mon design-wise, but I'm just curious as to the justification.
Braviary can hit suprisingly hard at +2 (from NU experience) and is a fantastic Bulk up user, But seeing it on B- is suprising, I was thinking more about C or C- for it. I think it might be the Scarf + defiant boost which takes it so high on the ranking, since it OHKO/2HKOs a good amount of the tier with its STABs alone, along with outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame barring Timid Accelgor (which is not that viable), Jolly Mega-Aerodactyl (Adamant works better to me) and jolly Ninjask.
 
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