Aegislash

[Jukain]

i agree with crumbler first. can you slash ks first, and slash in air balloon as well? yes, it does not...crumble as much w/o life orb, but it's the best ho spinblocker because it can switch into exca safely. this set has seen particular use on the upper ladder as of late, and i think it should be slashed in.

i also am 100% positive toxic needs a slash on the tank set. sneak is bad. it's just so weak, it's kinda funny. iron head is ok, but toxic has wider applications. toxic still cripples unaware clefable more than enough whilst seriously harming things like hippowdon, quagsire, rotom-w, lando-t, and such that love switching into tank aegi. i honestly think toxic is the best choice for the third slot on that set. it has seen significant use in spl as well.

also concurring with ultimario on the sub slash for sdef.

 

[Magcargo]

Remove Chansey from the checks and counters section. It can't do jackshit to Aegislash.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Maybe it's not cause I'm QC or on IRC as much as I ought to be yet, but that SubToxic set kinda of came out of nowhere with little explanation, and was suddenly listed first. Is it the most influential set Aegislash now runs in the metagame? And what happened to the Crumbler being first?

 

[Colonel M]

The SubToxic set really needs an IV of 0 for Attack. A demonstration:

0 Atk IV - 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 60-72 (18.5 - 22.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
31 Atk IV - 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 74-90 (22.9 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I feel this is pretty important because it prevents Mandibuzz and Umbreon from breaking your Substitute with STAB Foul Play. Knock Off can be played around with King's Shield, though Whirlwind and Taunt suck to face against.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Maybe it's not cause I'm QC or on IRC as much as I ought to be yet, but that SubToxic set kinda of came out of nowhere with little explanation, and was suddenly listed first. Is it the most influential set Aegislash now runs in the metagame? And what happened to the Crumbler being first?

SubToxic allows Aegislash to cripple it's main counters - Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, and Hippowdown. It sets up a Substitute on a predicted switch into one of these Pokemon, then Toxic's them, permanently crippling the for the rest of the match. Outside of that, Sub can be a very useful move to use on a predicted switch into a faster Pokemon, as it allows Aegislash to hit the opposing Pokemon with a powerful attack. If you're wondering about it's viability (Which I don't blame you - it does sound quite weird!) I'd recommend testing it out; it's a very useful and fun set! :)

 

[Seth Vilo]

SubToxic allows Aegislash to cripple it's main counters - Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, and Hippowdown. It sets up a Substitute on a predicted switch into one of these Pokemon, then Toxic's them, permanently crippling the for the rest of the match. Outside of that, Sub can be a very useful move to use on a predicted switch into a faster Pokemon, as it allows Aegislash to hit the opposing Pokemon with a powerful attack. If you're wondering about it's viability (Which I don't blame you - it does sound quite weird!) I'd recommend testing it out; it's a very useful and fun set! :)

Don't get me wrong. I know what it's good for and I'm not doubting its viability at all; I've been experimenting with SubToxic for a while now with great results. I'm merely commenting on how it just popped up as the first set - and thereby most metagame influential as far as analysis writing goes - in the analysis kind of over night with no discussion here, outside of whispers during SPL and in the OU Aegislash thread by two people. Again, I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere like IRC, but nothing here was said.

Personally, I don't think SubToxic should be listed first over things more well known like the common Tank and Crumbler sets because it's less metagame defining than those two (currently anyway). There is a reason its counters are counters. They stop those two sets because that's what Aegis most often and effectively runs right now. It's the same things as what is happening in the Charizard X thread; many people after SPL think that the Bulky WoW set is the BEST set. However, as discussed there, Dragon Dance defines and has more influence on the metagame than said WoW set, and is therefore listed first. Maybe not the best set, per say, but most defining and overall metagame-shaping.

If I'm completely wrong and SubToxic is actually more defining than Crumbler or Tank and should be first, then convince me (and the others I'm sure share my opinion). That's what this thread is for, after all. I'm pretty open to it. But the magical, discussion-less appearance is confusing and slightly irksome.

P.S., very much seconding the 0 Atk IV for SubToxic.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Don't get me wrong. I know what it's good for and I'm not doubting its viability at all; I've been experimenting with SubToxic for a while now with great results. I'm merely commenting on how it just popped up as the first set - and thereby most metagame influential as far as analysis writing goes - in the analysis kind of over night with no discussion here, outside of whispers during SPL and in the OU Aegislash thread by two people. Again, I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere like IRC, but nothing here was said.

Personally, I don't think SubToxic should be listed first over things more well known like the common Tank and Crumbler sets because it's less metagame defining than those two (currently anyway). There is a reason its counters are counters. They stop those two sets because that's what Aegis most often and effectively runs right now. It's the same things as what is happening in the Charizard X thread; many people after SPL think that the Bulky WoW set is the BEST set. However, as discussed there, Dragon Dance defines and has more influence on the metagame than said WoW set, and is therefore listed first. Maybe not the best set, per say, but most defining and overall metagame-shaping.

If I'm completely wrong and SubToxic is actually more defining than Crumbler or Tank and should be first, then convince me (and the others I'm sure share my opinion). That's what this thread is for, after all. I'm pretty open to it. But the magical, discussion-less appearance is confusing and slightly irksome.

P.S., very much seconding the 0 Atk IV for SubToxic.

Wow, your points actually make a ton of sense. I could definitely see SubToxic becoming the third analysis, though I wouldn't like it to go any lower than that.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Yeah, Colonel M was exactly right to suggest the 0 Atk IV, it's pretty important. Taking so little damage from Foul Play (in fact, failing to break your Sub) is one of the benefits of using the SubToxic set, as it allows Aegis to reliably beat Mandi 1-on-1 without resorting to Head Smash. That's pretty huge considering many players will automatically switch Mandi into Aegis!

I still like a 252 Spe spread more on Aegis for subbing on Rotom-W, getting in a quick Toxic on things like Mandi/Lando-T, etc. I guess the mention in details is fine though.

Also as much as I love it, I agree that SubToxic should probably be listed after Crumbler(and/or Tank) because those are Aegis' most defining sets.

 

[Jukain]

No, the Life Orb set is bad. It's very likely to get removed. Leftovers has way too much utility to pass up -- LO dies way too fast, and it doesn't beat much that it didn't already beat.

SubToxic and Tank are by far Aegislash's best sets. Most Aegi in SPL are running SubToxic, and SubToxic is very popular among high-level ladder players. We've had a discussion as a QC team, and decided to put SubToxic as the first set.

 

[Hibiki]

Is the crumbler really not worth it? It's damn strong. It's the Aegislash I always start with ("I'll use this, and if I feel like I want more bulk I'll switch it up") and I never find it disappointing. Then again, I tend to play really aggressively.

 

[Colonel M]

SubToxic is really good because the combination of its typing and immunity to Toxic allow it to switch in a lot. I usually take advantage of Chansey this way because, eventually, they have to switch into something else. If they arent carrying Aromatherapy and you put enough pressure on the opponent the SubToxic set can really muscle through.

Crumbler is nice but it is really fragile and Aegislash has a harder time playing to its strengths with Life Orb - mainly tanking a hit or two and smashing switch-ins with something. Being able to take out non-Taunt / Knock Off / Whirlwind Mandibuzz is also cool and let us face it - Mandibuzz hates Toxic anyway.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

So it appears that specially defensive Aegislash was moved from Other Options to its own set, sort of got replaced by the SubToxic set, and then disappeared altogether. Since it doesn't have its own set anymore, is there a chance that a specially defensive spread can get a Set Details mention on the SubToxic set? The set that I ran a little while back is pretty much identical to the SubToxic set listed here, just with maximum special bulk, so I think it'd make a good fit.

Also, Genesect and Mega Lucario still have a couple of mentions.

 

[legs]

why is the SubToxic set running 12 spe when it is neutral nature?

I understand that reducing natures run 12 spe to outspeed uninvested Tyranitar, but why would neutral Aegislash need the speed?

 

[CyclicCompound]

why is the SubToxic set running 12 spe when it is neutral nature?

I understand that reducing natures run 12 spe to outspeed uninvested Tyranitar, but why would neutral Aegislash need the speed?

12 Speed on Quiet Aegislash outspeeds 0 Speed Sassy Tyranitar. Likewise, 12 Speed on Modest Aegislash outspeeds 0 Speed Careful Tyranitar.

 

[alexwolf]

So it appears that specially defensive Aegislash was moved from Other Options to its own set, sort of got replaced by the SubToxic set, and then disappeared altogether. Since it doesn't have its own set anymore, is there a chance that a specially defensive spread can get a Set Details mention on the SubToxic set? The set that I ran a little while back is pretty much identical to the SubToxic set listed here, just with maximum special bulk, so I think it'd make a good fit.

Also, Genesect and Mega Lucario still have a couple of mentions.

The thing is, Aegislash doesn't really benefit with more Special Defense with Mega Lucario and Genesect gone. The extra special bulk does help against Thundurus (without Knock Off) and Keldeo, but that's it. All the other special attackers either beat you anyway, or you hard wall them regardless of Special Defense investment.

Actually, going max HP / max Def+ could be a better option, as then Aegislash becomes able to take one hit from +2 Mega Pinsir, and handles way better Pokemon such as Choice Band Azumarill, Dragon Dance Dragonite, Choice Band Dragonite, Earthquake Latios, Earthquake Terrakion, and Mega Medicham, while also taking stray STAB Earthquakes way better.

 

[Jack Meister]

12 Speed on Quiet Aegislash outspeeds 0 Speed Sassy Tyranitar. Likewise, 12 Speed on Modest Aegislash outspeeds 0 Speed Careful Tyranitar.

Why would you want to outspeed Tyranitar? You can't even OHKO Ttar with Shadow Ball, the only attacking move on Sub Toxic set.

 

[alexwolf]

Why would you want to outspeed Tyranitar? You can't even OHKO Ttar with Shadow Ball, the only attacking move on Sub Toxic set.

To be able to set up a Sub before it has a chance to hit you, in order to slowly kill it with Toxic.

 

[Jack Meister]

To be able to set up a Sub before it has a chance to hit you, in order to slowly kill it with Toxic.

Wouldn't it be better if you got your sub up after it hits you? It's gonna get broken anyway, subbing and then having it broken by TTar is a waste of your turn.

 

[alexwolf]

Wouldn't it be better if you got your sub up after it hits you? It's gonna get broken anyway, subbing and then having it broken by TTar is a waste of your turn.

Not having to take damage from Tyranitar means that you are able to Toxic stall it better, as Fire Blast will do more than 25% anyway, and you are going to lose the Sub you set up later, even if you are slower.

 

[Colonel M]

I feel the only issue with max Def instead of max SpA is that you can lose offensive presence. Maybe an optional spread or put Modest as the optional?

 

[LeoLancaster]

I noticed something odd about the Tank and SubToxic sets. The Sub set mentions Sacred Sword and Iron Head as viable alternatives to Substitute, and the Tank set mentions Toxic as a viable alternative for one of the coverage slots. This results in the analysis having two sets which are potentially the same, Shadow Ball/King's Shield/Toxic/(Sacred Sword or Iron Head). This just seems really odd. It also seems odd to suggest not using Sub on a set named SubToxic. I think it would be a good idea to remove mentions of replacing Sub from the Sub set, since it 1) preserves the consistency of the set name and 2) the same set is suggested elsewhere in the analysis.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Just a note on the swords dance set it says "4 Sdef for Genesect"

 

[Soul Fly]

Please make a mention of Flash Cannon on Crumbler and Tank sets due to it's sheer value of getting past mandibuzz (2hko after rocks) and hitting offensive shit like Azu harder. Excellent lure for two of it very common switch-ins

 

[PurpleCordial]

Please make a mention of Flash Cannon on Crumbler and Tank sets due to it's sheer value of getting past mandibuzz (2hko after rocks) and hitting offensive shit like Azu harder. Excellent lure for two of it very common switch-ins

Shadow Ball does the same damage to Azumarill (I'm assuming that's who you meant) and Azumarill doesn't even check it that great let alone be a common switch in. And it has to play around Kings Shield
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And honestly Head Smash is way better at getting rid of Mandi

 

[BurningMan]

Why is there absolutly no mention of Pursuit on the Tank set? Aegi is propably one of the best Pursuit users in the game and even though not every team needs pursuit support it is a lot better than iron head.