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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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A lot of bans this time arounf and some I agree with others I don't.
I agree with nearly every ban (especially swagger) but klefki (because come on without swagger it aint broken) and houndoomite )It was a legitimate threat but it had frail defenses poor defensive typing could be checked easily depending on the set.) All this being said I am very excited to see all this go down and to use some of my favorite UU pokes again. My opinions on thundy-t don't matter really because I had never used it. Also one last thing keep rain/sun banned pls?
I agree with nearly every ban (especially swagger) but klefki (because come on without swagger it aint broken) and houndoomite )It was a legitimate threat but it had frail defenses poor defensive typing could be checked easily depending on the set.) All this being said I am very excited to see all this go down and to use some of my favorite UU pokes again. My opinions on thundy-t don't matter really because I had never used it. Also one last thing keep rain/sun banned pls?
weavile would be much more broken than thundurus-t, i'm almost certain of it. the only counter it has is forretress, while thunds has porygon2, gardevoir, spdef hippo, etc.
also, the stuff about testing "a mon's lone capabilities in the UU tier" is not reliable because UU is a dynamic tier. for example, take hawlucha. it was A+ rank, being an acceptable sweeper. in one moment, zapdos was in the tier, and hawlucha was not broken. suddenly, zapdos goes OU and hawlucha was instantly deemed BL. see what i mean? we can't be sure if the pokemon is 100% broken or 100% not broken (except in really shit pokemon cases) in UU because the tier itself is not fix. the issue about UU can be roughly compared to heisenberg's uncertainty principle, i think.
also, the stuff about testing "a mon's lone capabilities in the UU tier" is not reliable because UU is a dynamic tier. for example, take hawlucha. it was A+ rank, being an acceptable sweeper. in one moment, zapdos was in the tier, and hawlucha was not broken. suddenly, zapdos goes OU and hawlucha was instantly deemed BL. see what i mean? we can't be sure if the pokemon is 100% broken or 100% not broken (except in really shit pokemon cases) in UU because the tier itself is not fix. the issue about UU can be roughly compared to heisenberg's uncertainty principle, i think.
It's going to be hard going Hawlucha-less ;_;
I placed him on nearly every offensive team of mine. Also, jumping on board with everyone who's surprised that Zygarde and Kyurem weren't considered at least potentially broken.
Also, koko, were any other things that didn't get banned considered? Is that disclosable?
I really want to hold off my reservations on Thundurus-T's apparent brokeneness, but I will say that I used him extensively at the beginning of the tier (back when Chansey was still with us, RIP), and his two most effective sets back then were mixed LO and Double Booster (with EVs customized to live specific hits). If you can hit, +2 FB 2HKOs Chansey, which is absolutely crazy if you ask me. 145 base sp attack makes him an electric Chandelure, but the fact he doesn't need scarf and outspeeds the incredibly common base 100 speed tier. It's hard to successfully set up, but the tier itself is pretty stally right now and Dual Screens support is still a thing. Defensive spreads + great Defensive typing = you outlive a lot of things you wouldn't have expected to live, and can therefore successfully set up an Agility/NP. I'd say he's a like M-Lucario in that sense, that his ability to live necessary hits compliments very well his ability to sweep.
Edit:
Gardevoir is a reliable counter, thanks to Trace.
Hippowdon: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 325-385 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slightly more iffy because Thundurus-T is 2HKOd by Ice Fang. Also, FB does the same as HP Ice.
I don't really know what counters Thundurus-T effectively, especially because it can run mixed. Gardevoir is a good one I hadn't though of before. Florges tends to do well, but Double Boost 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, while Florges can fail to 2HKO with Moonblast with a few HP EVs and the fact it does ~70% means you either waste turns healing or a different special attacker plows through you.
I placed him on nearly every offensive team of mine. Also, jumping on board with everyone who's surprised that Zygarde and Kyurem weren't considered at least potentially broken.
Also, koko, were any other things that didn't get banned considered? Is that disclosable?
I really want to hold off my reservations on Thundurus-T's apparent brokeneness, but I will say that I used him extensively at the beginning of the tier (back when Chansey was still with us, RIP), and his two most effective sets back then were mixed LO and Double Booster (with EVs customized to live specific hits). If you can hit, +2 FB 2HKOs Chansey, which is absolutely crazy if you ask me. 145 base sp attack makes him an electric Chandelure, but the fact he doesn't need scarf and outspeeds the incredibly common base 100 speed tier. It's hard to successfully set up, but the tier itself is pretty stally right now and Dual Screens support is still a thing. Defensive spreads + great Defensive typing = you outlive a lot of things you wouldn't have expected to live, and can therefore successfully set up an Agility/NP. I'd say he's a like M-Lucario in that sense, that his ability to live necessary hits compliments very well his ability to sweep.
Edit:
Porygon2: 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 185-218 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Gardevoir is a reliable counter, thanks to Trace.
Hippowdon: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 325-385 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slightly more iffy because Thundurus-T is 2HKOd by Ice Fang. Also, FB does the same as HP Ice.
I don't really know what counters Thundurus-T effectively, especially because it can run mixed. Gardevoir is a good one I hadn't though of before. Florges tends to do well, but Double Boost 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, while Florges can fail to 2HKO with Moonblast with a few HP EVs and the fact it does ~70% means you either waste turns healing or a different special attacker plows through you.
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I often run Grass Knot on Thundurus-T to handle these. Salamence can also switch in on any move except HP Ice and destroy Thundurus-T with Outrage.
Oh boy crawdaunts gone, that's sweet.
Was klefki without swagger considered with this ban? what really threat does it hold without swagger? I see just see it being the best spiker and/or screener in the tier. But with no recovery and pour offensive presence I don't think it's all that broken.
seeing hydreigon and houndoomite go is a big shocker, as well as haxorus, which has not caused too much fuss in a while. But I guess the special attackers are the result of chansey being OU.
I see a lot of mentions about zygarde but I really don't see him as a threat. With such common HARD counters as slowbro, whom also has recovery, and can switch into as many dragon tails as he want, zygarde is left shaking. Not to mention such checks as infiltrator crobat toxic whom does not care about zygardes substitutes. And then you compare that to something crawdaunt like whos only counters depend on him not running certain moves, otherwise, he obliterates them.
Was klefki without swagger considered with this ban? what really threat does it hold without swagger? I see just see it being the best spiker and/or screener in the tier. But with no recovery and pour offensive presence I don't think it's all that broken.
seeing hydreigon and houndoomite go is a big shocker, as well as haxorus, which has not caused too much fuss in a while. But I guess the special attackers are the result of chansey being OU.
I see a lot of mentions about zygarde but I really don't see him as a threat. With such common HARD counters as slowbro, whom also has recovery, and can switch into as many dragon tails as he want, zygarde is left shaking. Not to mention such checks as infiltrator crobat toxic whom does not care about zygardes substitutes. And then you compare that to something crawdaunt like whos only counters depend on him not running certain moves, otherwise, he obliterates them.
Man, this basically makes UU an entirely different tier than what it was pre-ban.
Comments on each ban:
Hawlucha--this thing was OP but I didn't see it often enough to reflect that. The Mega-Aggron set I run could check it to some extent but a boosted HJK still destroy it pretty quickly. Maybe if it had a different STAB combination….alright, start giving Hitmonlee a chance. Umbreon should also see a slight rise in usage.
Houndoominite- I don't understand why this was banned. If Drought was still here, then Houndoom-M would be too strong. Back to LO I guess.
Salamence- I only used the CS set, which still decimated everything not named a faster Scarfer with an Ice move, Weaville, or Mega-Aggron with defense investment.
Magnezone- this thing kind of broke stall since a lot of defensive cores rely on Mega Aggron as a physical wall.
Haxorus- same as Salamence, basically.
Hydreigon- This one had too few checks/counters. I even started running a Choice Band set with U-turn, Dragon Rush, Crunch, and Iron Tail to nail Florges, a.k.a. the one "counter" to Hydreigon, on the switch-in.
Crawdaunt- Adaptability made it a bit too strong, but it was too slow to destroy most things. Chesnaught is probably the best non-banned Pokemon to handle it, but Hydreigon could switch in on a STAB move and destroy it with Draco Meteor.
Klefki + Swagger- yuck. It had to go. Bye bye.
I think Florges will be a key way to handle Thundurus-T, since unlike Umbreon it's not weak to Focus Blast. However, Terrakion and Weaville were banned. Plus Chaney moved up to OU so that's not helping matters. The best bet might be Assault Vest Hitmochan/Machamp/Hariyama/Hitmonlee with Stone Edge, as they can switch in on Thundurus and blast it on its poor physical defense.
hawlucha was broken even with Zapdos in the tier lol
besides, idk how many times I'm going to have to repeat this, but we are NOT concerned with getting everything that could possibly be UU into the tier, so it doesn't matter if BL mons cancel out other BL mons brokenness or whatever.
so basically your concerns are valid only if we are concerned with never having any nonbroken pokemon banned. but we are not. we are concerned with never having any broken pokemon not banned, however.
besides, idk how many times I'm going to have to repeat this, but we are NOT concerned with getting everything that could possibly be UU into the tier, so it doesn't matter if BL mons cancel out other BL mons brokenness or whatever.
so basically your concerns are valid only if we are concerned with never having any nonbroken pokemon banned. but we are not. we are concerned with never having any broken pokemon not banned, however.
Swagger is actually mostly because it's been suspected in OU right now. Even though it's fucking Swagger (yes, bolded because it's fucking Swagger), I think if something is suspected in OU right now it would be kind of weird to let it roam free in UU atm. Eh, i dont really know though. Klefki by itself is a fucking ridiculous piece of shit because of prankster Dual screens, TWave and the like. He's a Spiker, Screener and annoyer all combined into one annoying ass package.
Z's threat mostly comes from him being able to run two equally viable boosting sets: DD and Coil. DD itself is pretty ridiculous since it has stupidly delicious bulk, and on top of that it also gets Extremespeed, meaning that it's impossible to out-prioritise Zygarde. Coil is well, self-explanatory, and even so there are different variations (Coil + 3 atks, Sub Coil, heck probably in the future someone might make fucking Crogarde)
TM13IceBeam , there's also ChestoRest DD and ChestoRest Coil for those wanting to go a bit out on a limb.
Anyway, kind of excited to test out some things against Thundurus-T. The Double Dance set is going to be fairly difficult to handle (no shock there) As for the bans, I'm a bit surprised M-Houndoom got the boot, but since the council was trying to get rid of anything potentially broken, I can see why they did it since M-Doom was one of the scariest special sweepers to stop. Glad Klefki got the boot. That thing was ridiculous. P. much fully relied on luck and even without Swagger, it reminds me of a defensive version of Thundurus-I from early BW; a failsafe way to stop any non-Electric or Ground-type sweeper with Thunder Wave. Yeah, kinda ridiculous. Not to mention everything else it had (Screens, Spikes, etc.) with Prankster. Everything else that got the boot is rather self-explanatory.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Well, SpDef Mega Ampharos just got a new use.
Anyway, kind of excited to test out some things against Thundurus-T. The Double Dance set is going to be fairly difficult to handle (no shock there) As for the bans, I'm a bit surprised M-Houndoom got the boot, but since the council was trying to get rid of anything potentially broken, I can see why they did it since M-Doom was one of the scariest special sweepers to stop. Glad Klefki got the boot. That thing was ridiculous. P. much fully relied on luck and even without Swagger, it reminds me of a defensive version of Thundurus-I from early BW; a failsafe way to stop any non-Electric or Ground-type sweeper with Thunder Wave. Yeah, kinda ridiculous. Not to mention everything else it had (Screens, Spikes, etc.) with Prankster. Everything else that got the boot is rather self-explanatory.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Well, SpDef Mega Ampharos just got a new use.
I see what you did there.
On top of most peoples concerns out of the current ban list the things I think will stay are
Haxorus-ridiculously powerful but too slow.
Houndoom-already covered this
Crawdaunt-powerful but sslow and frail
Klefki-no swagger not overpowered
Scolipede-speed boost+good offensive stats=good but with new threats not broken good.
As a long time fan of UU (since gen 4) this round of bans and this gen of UU as a whole is really frustrating to me. It seems as though the council is way too ban-happy this time around, banning pokemon that imho were perfectly fine such as Mega Houndoom and Swagerless Klefki. It really feels like the council is determined to keep the power of UU the same as last gen, instead of allowing it to adjust and develop a new power level based on the changes to OU. We now have a massive BL list, which defeats the purpose of the lower tiers, letting every pokemon have a tier to shine in.
The purpose of these bans is that we can create a healthy and stable metagame from early on and retest all BL Pokemon one by one to see if they're truly broken.
That being said, even with the current banning mindset I think there are a couple of mons this round that are, without a single doubt to me, not broken in the slightest. Crawdaunt, for example, is a Pokemon that gets very little switchin opportunity due to its bad bulk and mediocre defensive typing. Yes, once it manages to switch in it can do serious damage, but considering its typing and bulk there barely are any mons in the meta that Crawdaunt can switch in on without fear of being hit really hard. On top of that, it relies on Aqua Jet in order to kill faster mons (of which there are a damn lot), so while it can be devastating, it's not even borderline broken imo.
The ban on Klefki is another thing that baffles me. With Swagger being banned, the luck aspect that makes Klefki uncompetitive is gone, so what it has left are priority Spikes and priority Screens. Now, the thing is, with the large amount of spinners we have recently received, Spikes aren't hard to remove and considering Klefki's got neither stellar bulk nor any form of recovery outside of Leftovers (lol Draining Kiss), it's not some "guaranteed Spikes"-Pokemon à la Deoxys-D. Regarding the Screens set: It's really good, but considering the meta just got way more defensive, I don't see priority screens as something that wrecks the tier either. Priority Twave does stop certain setup sweepers in their tracks, yes, but I'd much rather call that a safety net than something that's legitimately uncompetitive. Nobody's ever looked cross at Murkrow for being able to launch priority Twaves.
Hydreigon didn't have the speed to be overpowered. Also, it's hardwalled by the most common Pokemon in the tier
Xam you're forgetting the reason they're doing retests.
These bans are not permanant, just a seal on any potential threats, which is why people are confused about why things like zygarde or kyurem were not mentioned.
Although I'm assuming they voted on klefki before they voted on swagger. Why they wouldn't do a revote is a bit of a confusion but I'm not 100% on how they do their voting.
The main goal is a healthy metagame, we can't have a healthy metagame with things like chansey around, but we CAN have a healthy metagame without klefki, but personally I don't see the problem with it without swagger, if this is the case, he'll be unbanned and reintroduced and we'll still have a healthy metagame.
All mons can and will be retested multiple times so saying "swagger isn't broken without klefki", that will be retested as well, if klefki retains his boot from the game (hypothetically)
These bans are not permanant, just a seal on any potential threats, which is why people are confused about why things like zygarde or kyurem were not mentioned.
Although I'm assuming they voted on klefki before they voted on swagger. Why they wouldn't do a revote is a bit of a confusion but I'm not 100% on how they do their voting.
The main goal is a healthy metagame, we can't have a healthy metagame with things like chansey around, but we CAN have a healthy metagame without klefki, but personally I don't see the problem with it without swagger, if this is the case, he'll be unbanned and reintroduced and we'll still have a healthy metagame.
All mons can and will be retested multiple times so saying "swagger isn't broken without klefki", that will be retested as well, if klefki retains his boot from the game (hypothetically)
If I'm not mistaken, the point of banning so many things off the top is to identify potentially broken threats. If I understand it correctly (if I'm wrong, you can call me out kokoloko lol) everything is going to get retested over the coming weeks and months to determine if the ban is justified or if certain threats are simply powerful, but not broken. Stuff like M-Houndoom and Weavile may not remain in BL after retesting, but others like Diggersby and Salamence may be deemed broken after a retest and remain in BL for the forseeable future.
@ everyone on Klefki: none of you are remembering it also has access to Prankster TWave. That is a fullproof stop to any sweeper that isn't an Electric- or Ground-type provided they don't carry a Lum Berry. Even without Swagger, Klefki makes it very difficult to effectively set up and sweep without a Lum Berry or the use of Substitute.
so liepard or ditto with better typing? I guess murkrow can do that too.
Oh and pretty much every pokemon with focus sash and thunder wave, but I'll admit that is a bit stretching, I'll also admit klefki is the best at doing this with also being able to bring other things to the table but does that necessary make it broken?
One of the things that Klefki has is that it happens to possess one of the best defensive typings in the game. Steel/Fairy may have common weaknesses in Fire and Ground, but it also happens to be resistant to stuff like Dragon, Fairy and Poison. It can come in on stuff like say, Roserade, and start tossing Spikes around. The thing about Klefki is that after Thunder Wave, its utility extends further with Dual Screens and Spiking: something which Murkrow and Liepard cannot replicate. There is also more room for hax, so to speak, with Klefki, as it possesses actual bulk compared to Liepard, and gets to hold Leftovers or Light Clay compared to Murkrow (although priority Roost might offset this). I've used Klefki (without Swagger, mind you, people seem to think Swagger is the only way to fucking play Klefki) and basically, he's the ultimate support mon for stuff like Salamence, Haxorus, Zygarde, Crawdaunt etc.
Basically, Klefki does things other than prankster TWave. It can be a spiker, screener and annoyer at the same time with just one moveset, and at most you can drop a move for Draining Kiss/Dazzling Gleam/Foul Play depending on what your team needs. Klefki is far more versatile than Murkrow/Liepard can ever dream to be lol
Basically, Klefki does things other than prankster TWave. It can be a spiker, screener and annoyer at the same time with just one moveset, and at most you can drop a move for Draining Kiss/Dazzling Gleam/Foul Play depending on what your team needs. Klefki is far more versatile than Murkrow/Liepard can ever dream to be lol
I'll honestly admit I'm surprised to see Crawdaunt go. He's enormously difficult to switch into but laughably easy to revenge kill. The DD set was always scary, mostly because taking a +1 LO Aqua Jet was difficult as all hell for the Pokemon that can outspeed him, but I've always felt he was good, not broken. I've been away from the tier for a little bit since the tier shift, so I never actually saw Klefki, but seeing it go to BL along with Swagger (I'll accept everyone's hate and admit I used SwaggerPlay Liepard early in UU) puts me at ease a little.
I'll be around more today and playing to test the waters, but I can already tell Nidoking is already one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier for his ability to dismantle a lot of popular stall cores and now that he's officially the most difficult Pokemon in the tier to switch in to. Hell, he's gonna be nearly required for a lot of offensive teams with the enormous boost stall got in this round of bans.
I'll be around more today and playing to test the waters, but I can already tell Nidoking is already one of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier for his ability to dismantle a lot of popular stall cores and now that he's officially the most difficult Pokemon in the tier to switch in to. Hell, he's gonna be nearly required for a lot of offensive teams with the enormous boost stall got in this round of bans.
Shiny Minun , I wasn't trying to say that Klefki is the only thing that can Prankster TWave shit. (shoulda elaborated, so that one's on me) But it reminds me a lot of Thundurus-I in early BW, only in a defensive fashion. Thundy-I could sweep, wallbreak, AND stop sweeps depending on how it was used. Klefki is very similar, but in a more defensive manner. It can set Screens, lay Spikes, AND stop sweeps. The fact it has what is statistically the best defensive typing in the game gives it multiple opportunities to support its team in different fashions, depending on what is needed at that time. I'm not fully sure that this makes Klefki broken as I didn't use it once before it got the boot, but it does make it damn hard to deal with. Fire-types can't reliably switch-in; all are crippled by T-Wave. Ground-types are a bit safer since they're immune to T-Wave, but outside of Nidoking/Queen, not many can go on the offensive very easily.
Hmm crawdaunt is gone.. i guess slowbro is back as a premier physical wall!
The problem with thundy is that it has the tools to just tear theough teams. Nasty plot wall breaks. Agility makes it nigh impossible to revenge kill. It has grass knot for swampy quagsire and rhyperior. It even gets superpower which allows it to beat special walls not named florges. To make things worse, there arent even that many ice and rock types that can beat it reliaby. Cloyster is maimed by tbolt but it has priority. Kyurem is a pretty safe bet, but has to beware of focus blast especially on the np set.
The only thing working against it is that it can be checked by strong moves from mienshao, hera (stone edge) and florges checks it pretty well. Well see wbat happens, but i think it may get the boot...
The problem with thundy is that it has the tools to just tear theough teams. Nasty plot wall breaks. Agility makes it nigh impossible to revenge kill. It has grass knot for swampy quagsire and rhyperior. It even gets superpower which allows it to beat special walls not named florges. To make things worse, there arent even that many ice and rock types that can beat it reliaby. Cloyster is maimed by tbolt but it has priority. Kyurem is a pretty safe bet, but has to beware of focus blast especially on the np set.
The only thing working against it is that it can be checked by strong moves from mienshao, hera (stone edge) and florges checks it pretty well. Well see wbat happens, but i think it may get the boot...
I actually agree with all of the UU Council's ban, including some of the more borderline ones.
Hawlucha : Forcing offense to run strong priority or get wrecked since it is insanely easy to get the unburden boost. Even without SD boost, there aren't many offensive mons that can take its powerful dual STABs, especially late game. Consider the tier doesn't have many priority users, this thing is too dangerous for offensive teams. Stallier teams have a better time, but still doesn't enjoy facing it without Doublade.
Houndoomite : Have too many tools to wreck stall teams. Simply nothing in stall can beat its Nasty Plot set as even Suicune's Scald is not a OHKO while boosted Dark Pulse 2HKOs back. It is really great against balance and offense too, sitting in a great speed tier and 2HKOs any offensive mons at least. However it is how easy it breaks stall cores which pushes it over the edge.
Weavile : With the buff of Knock Off, it really hits to hard for offensive teams to handle. Stall may have some things to deal with it, including staples like Mega Aggron, Florges, Gastrodon etc. However, offensive teams could only count on scarfers or priority users to beat it. To add in that, Weavile has a powerful Ice Shard, forcing the opposition to play their scarfers/priority users extremely carefully to avoid being taken out by Ice Shard.
Klefki : Prankster Dual Screens are godly and basically makes Klefki having double its original defense stat. It also stack spikes far too easily like how Deoxys work though lacking Taunt is quite bad. However, with ths best defoggers gone, Klefki can now pair with ghosts to spinblock the common spinblockers. Prankster T-wave is pretty cheap and fucks up set up sweepers far too easily and skillessly. Its defensive typing is awesome too even with fire and ground too an extent being somewhat common. While any one of the factors doesn't make Klefki broken, a combination of them does.
Crawdaunt : Not as good when facing offense (still really good), but it completely fucks up stall. Stall is forced to run either Chesnaught or Poliwrath or Crawdaunt just runs through it (things like Mega Blastoise, Virizion doesn't have the bulk to take on Crawdaunt more than once). With Swords Dance, Crawdaunt can simply OHKO everything after the boost. With the rise of Aerial Ace, even so called counters face a 2HKO. Too dangerous for stall to handle and should definitely be banned.
Haxorus : DD is insanely hard to stop without a faster scarfer or strong priority, which most likely won't OHKO sans Reckless Mienshao's High Jump Kick. It actually has reasonable bulk to set up and basically OHKOs things after a boost. While not common at all, SD Haxorus kills any form of stall. Even traditional counters like Slowbro, Doublade, Granbull are either outright OHKOed or OHKOed after a bit prior damage.
Scolipede : Basically SD sets and Iron Defense sets have different counters. SD LO can OHKO nearly every single offensive threat after a boost and is only threatened by priority. Even most walls in the tier are 2HKOed after a boost. It can even baton pass out when needed, complerely wrecking any counter measurwes. With Iron Defence, however, priority attackers switched in are fucked as they cannot do much to a boosted Scolipede, allowing it to pass rediculous boosts out.
Hydreigon : It has one single viable counter called Florges and thats all. Almost every stall team carries Florges for this reason. Too centralizing.
Thundurus-T : Not quite sure about it to be honest. On one hand, it can run moves to beat any of its counters (U-turn/hp flying/Knock Off for Celebi, Grass Knot for Hippo and Water/Grounds, Knock Off/hp flying for Trevenant, Knock Off/Superpower/Focus Blast for Porygon2). However, it cannot run all those moves on the same time and physical, special and mixed sets all have respective counters. Nasty Plot and Agility may prove to much for stall and offensive respectively but there isn't enough tests done on it.
p.s. 100th post
Hawlucha : Forcing offense to run strong priority or get wrecked since it is insanely easy to get the unburden boost. Even without SD boost, there aren't many offensive mons that can take its powerful dual STABs, especially late game. Consider the tier doesn't have many priority users, this thing is too dangerous for offensive teams. Stallier teams have a better time, but still doesn't enjoy facing it without Doublade.
Houndoomite : Have too many tools to wreck stall teams. Simply nothing in stall can beat its Nasty Plot set as even Suicune's Scald is not a OHKO while boosted Dark Pulse 2HKOs back. It is really great against balance and offense too, sitting in a great speed tier and 2HKOs any offensive mons at least. However it is how easy it breaks stall cores which pushes it over the edge.
Weavile : With the buff of Knock Off, it really hits to hard for offensive teams to handle. Stall may have some things to deal with it, including staples like Mega Aggron, Florges, Gastrodon etc. However, offensive teams could only count on scarfers or priority users to beat it. To add in that, Weavile has a powerful Ice Shard, forcing the opposition to play their scarfers/priority users extremely carefully to avoid being taken out by Ice Shard.
Klefki : Prankster Dual Screens are godly and basically makes Klefki having double its original defense stat. It also stack spikes far too easily like how Deoxys work though lacking Taunt is quite bad. However, with ths best defoggers gone, Klefki can now pair with ghosts to spinblock the common spinblockers. Prankster T-wave is pretty cheap and fucks up set up sweepers far too easily and skillessly. Its defensive typing is awesome too even with fire and ground too an extent being somewhat common. While any one of the factors doesn't make Klefki broken, a combination of them does.
Crawdaunt : Not as good when facing offense (still really good), but it completely fucks up stall. Stall is forced to run either Chesnaught or Poliwrath or Crawdaunt just runs through it (things like Mega Blastoise, Virizion doesn't have the bulk to take on Crawdaunt more than once). With Swords Dance, Crawdaunt can simply OHKO everything after the boost. With the rise of Aerial Ace, even so called counters face a 2HKO. Too dangerous for stall to handle and should definitely be banned.
Haxorus : DD is insanely hard to stop without a faster scarfer or strong priority, which most likely won't OHKO sans Reckless Mienshao's High Jump Kick. It actually has reasonable bulk to set up and basically OHKOs things after a boost. While not common at all, SD Haxorus kills any form of stall. Even traditional counters like Slowbro, Doublade, Granbull are either outright OHKOed or OHKOed after a bit prior damage.
Scolipede : Basically SD sets and Iron Defense sets have different counters. SD LO can OHKO nearly every single offensive threat after a boost and is only threatened by priority. Even most walls in the tier are 2HKOed after a boost. It can even baton pass out when needed, complerely wrecking any counter measurwes. With Iron Defence, however, priority attackers switched in are fucked as they cannot do much to a boosted Scolipede, allowing it to pass rediculous boosts out.
Hydreigon : It has one single viable counter called Florges and thats all. Almost every stall team carries Florges for this reason. Too centralizing.
Thundurus-T : Not quite sure about it to be honest. On one hand, it can run moves to beat any of its counters (U-turn/hp flying/Knock Off for Celebi, Grass Knot for Hippo and Water/Grounds, Knock Off/hp flying for Trevenant, Knock Off/Superpower/Focus Blast for Porygon2). However, it cannot run all those moves on the same time and physical, special and mixed sets all have respective counters. Nasty Plot and Agility may prove to much for stall and offensive respectively but there isn't enough tests done on it.
p.s. 100th post
LO with Agility/Nasty Plot/Thunderbolt/HP Ice
Basically, the idea is to set up with either Agility or Nasty Plot, depending on whether you're facing an offensive or defensive team respectively. Of all the UU-viable mons there are maybe 4 or 5 that can wall this set to some success. Checks don't exist after an Agility. This is the set that got it banned and this is the set that will keep it banned (at least before it got banned Chansey was there to deal with it). Also, sets that forgo one of these boosting moves free up a moveslot to deal with things that can otherwise come in on it without any trouble.
Thats funny, I've been using a NP + Agility Porygon-Z a lot lately with quite a lot of success. I'll be sure to try that one out
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