np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[Metric]

Can we get some reasoning behind the bans in future? Even if it is just a simple 2-3 line paragraph it really is better than nothing.

I'm actually completely fine with this method of tiering that UU (I think it's been rather effective and efficient actually) is employing and I trust the council's decisions, but what is slightly disconcerting is the lack of transparency as to why things were banned.

I'm not saying this for myself personally as having played throughout I can discern well enough as to why each pokemon was banned, but I believe it would be beneficial for those unfamiliar with the tier, newer players, and just the community in general to have some insight into the council's thought process when deciding on bans. It's rather embarrassing that user C AllStar who is not even a council member (No disrespect to him, he did a good job), had to end up filling us in on the reasoning.

 

[baddjordan]

Good bans, might actually be able to play UU without Florges.

 

[Taehl]

I would like to see a list of the bans with an explanation why it got banned. Literally half of the comments are people wondering why something got banned, and that can easily be solved with that.

 

[Shiny Minun]

is there anything not banned?

There are currently 637 pokemon not banned from UU, a wide selection.

 

[MrCookiepants]

I say it's a gimmick because it's literally the definition of better in theory then in practice. OU also has no effect on UU.

Edit: nvm, Agility is a thing, still takes 2 turns to setup

lol, being able to spam a 130 BP STAB move that crits 100% of the time is not a gimmick.

 

[kokoloko]

klefki was banned because prankster spikes/screens/twave are all pretty ridiculous and if you can't see that you might be kind of bad at this game idk. might not be broken, we'll just have to wait and see when it gets retested just like everything else.

man you people just love to complain even when you fucking know everything will get a second and probably a third chance at being uu so can you all do me a favor and chill the fuck out?

thanks.

replying mostly to posts i deleted. the ones that stayed were not as bad.

oh and every council member will do explanations as to why the vote either way from now on. we didn't do it before because idk if you guys realize how much fucking work that is. its not that we're not willing to do it, it's that it would slow the process down dramatically and that is completely counterproductive.

but now that we're voting on only one thing at a time, everyone should be writing 2-3 sentences on their reasoning.

 

[BlazeX635]

Well,I never liked using Hydreigon on my team anyways....

I guess I could use noivern.......Specs noivern OP

 

[-Flygon-]

There is that, but Hydreigon will be dearly missed. :'(

 

[EonX]

Hm, something I don't really think is getting a lot of attention is Nidoqueen. Anyone who played BW2 RU in Nidoqueen's short stint in the tier knows how hard it is to make an effective stall team that can actually take her out. She has more bulk than Nidoking, a bit more power due to running a Modest nature, and she's immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave. She's ridiculously hard to wear down due to this and she has great 3 move coverage in Sludge Wave, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. From there, she can either set Rocks or just run a 4th coverage move to deal with certain things. While Nidoking is better overall imo since it fares better against more offensive teams while still doing work against stall teams, don't sleep on Queen. If you run a stall team, your answer to Nidoking might not be strong enough to handle Queen's added bulk and power.

Also, anyone thought of using mixed Thundurus-T? It has good attacking stats on both ends after all...

 

[-Flygon-]

Hmm... I never thought about Nidoqueen that way. Nidoking is always the first picked in my book, it never occurred to me. The problem is that there are better Pokemon for Nidoqueen's job imo, like Krookodile, which has superior bulk and access to rocks, and looks badass. XD As for mixed Thunderus-T, it would definitely be interesting...

 

[Punchshroom]

Hm, something I don't really think is getting a lot of attention is Nidoqueen. Anyone who played BW2 RU in Nidoqueen's short stint in the tier knows how hard it is to make an effective stall team that can actually take her out. She has more bulk than Nidoking, a bit more power due to running a Modest nature, and she's immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave. She's ridiculously hard to wear down due to this and she has great 3 move coverage in Sludge Wave, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. From there, she can either set Rocks or just run a 4th coverage move to deal with certain things. While Nidoking is better overall imo since it fares better against more offensive teams while still doing work against stall teams, don't sleep on Queen. If you run a stall team, your answer to Nidoking might not be strong enough to handle Queen's added bulk and power.

Also, anyone thought of using mixed Thundurus-T? It has good attacking stats on both ends after all...

In B2W2 UU, Nidoqueen was considered to be superior to Nidoking, since her bulk mattered in taking hits from the likes of Raikou, Heracross, Cobalion, and Mienshao, while still packing comparable power and enough speed to outrun bulkier foes, essentially a Nidoking that can actually check stuff. The power creep in XY UU may prove to be a bit much for Queen's greater bulk to be significant this time round, but she is no less a threat than Nidoking against bulkier teams, and there are only a handful of Pokemon Queen doesn't outspeed that King does (Chandelure being the big one).

Its notable physical moves include Superpower, Knock Off, U-turn, Fly, and the gimmicky Crunch & Iron Tail. I'm not entirely sure what mixed Thundurus-T is supposed to hit that Nasty Plot Thundurus cannot. +2 LO Focus Blast already OHKOes Umbreon. Knock Off, U-turn, and Fly can hurt Celebi while Iron Tail hits Florges, but hey, Thundy-T can use Nasty Plot Sludge Wave to wreck them anyway, while also having the benefit of hitting Spiky Shield Chesnaught which Fly fails against. Fly can wreck Roserade, but Psychic does that too while flooring the Nidos as well as Chesnaught. Pretty much the only reason I can think of to run physical moves over Thundurus-T's highly expansive special movepool is for stuff like Assault Vest Snorlax, which basically translates to Superpower being the only physical move one should run. If one has Volt Switch on their Thundurus-T, they can use it to wear down the AV mons anyway.

 

[jamashawalker]

Now that we have smeargle an old strategy which was really popular back in Gen V. Smash Passing. An amazingly good strategy which has gotten alot better in UU thanks to the lack of priority users and now that klefki is gone, its really hard to stop and beyond easy to set up. Smeargle is hands down the best because of his unpredictability using the ability. Also thanks to defog its alot easier to keep hazards off the field. Some amazing pokemon to use with this strategy: M-Blastoise, Nidoking, Kingdra, and M-Ampharos. Not only are all of them bulky on their own right, but they are extremely deadly when given a +2.

here's a quick vid of M-Ampharos with one.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-99993156

 

[EonX]

Punchshroom , yeah, I wasn't suggesting a fully physical set. But, a mixed set (a la Tornadus-T) is possible since it has some neat moves like Knock Off, Superpower (no boost needed to bash special walls), and U-turn (Ground-types can't kill momentum) Obviously, Double Dance is Thundurus-T's most dangerous set, but a mixed set is nice for those just simply wanting to hit hard off the bat. Probably something like this:

Thundurus-T @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive / Hasty
- Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- U-turn / Superpower

So, yeah, basically, you come in. You spam an Electric-type move. Then you use coverage to break stuff down. Choice between TBolt and Volt Switch just depends on if you want to stay in or scout. Grass Knot kills off most Ground-types and is a good move to use against Water-types that have Ground-type teammates. Knock Off strips opponents of items. Key to breaking down stuff like Porygon2, Umbreon, and even Florges. U-turn has no immunities, so you gain easy momentum. If Volt Switch is used, Superpower smacks P2 and Umbreon around. Life Orb gives more power and EBelt gives you the ability to bluff a choice item. Keep in mind though that most people will expect Double Dance anyway, so the EBelt bluff may not work well.

 

[g]

IMHO U-Turn is almost always superior to Volt Switch on Thundurus-T. You use it for the momentum anyway and hitting Celebi hard is extremely valuable. Not to mention the fact that Swampert is becoming pretty common and most of the time Thundurus can't carry Grass Knot to deal with him as you want Thunderbolt, Focus Blast and HP Ice for general coverage and to hit common special walls like Umbreon and Porygon 2. Obviously this is not a problem for the double boosting check but with Choice or EBelt sets U-Turn should be considered.

 

[Mudkip727]

I say it's a gimmick because it's literally the definition of better in theory then in practice. OU also has no effect on UU.

Edit: nvm, Agility is a thing, still takes 2 turns to setup

And sticky web is a thing.
But if played right it can be VERY deadly.

Speaking of which, there hasn't been any big mention about stocky web. It's pretty powerful now that spin-blocking is back in the tier, and there's many good abusers of sticky web like chalendure, keldeo and all the others that appreciate the foe's speed tier being lowered. As for the setters, that's the better part, we now got smeargle, galavantula and smeargle. I think shuckle is the best setter for now, as there are many rapid spinners and shuckie can come back and set up sticky web again. But smeargle and galvantula are good choices too.

On the topic of thundurus-t, the biggest downfall is that it has 4MSS. Without grass knock u get
Beaten by swamp, quag and other water/ground types, without focus blast u can't beat porygon-2 and umbreon, without sludge wave, florges is out to get u, and without hidden power ice, the foe's thundurus-t will wall u(but u can't live at all without Tbolt LOL)

Anyway, after thundurus-t who should be tested next? Is diggersby or mega heracross too powerfull to even consider? Is it going to be the forever victim of the ban hammer or not?

 

[rainbowumbreon]

ohh the shock of finding half my team banned i do agree with most of the bans in this beta and i think that some of the pokes will not need to be tested and will find there ou home terrakion for example

I think there have been a lot of broken crap come through uu through-out the beginning of the beta and i really hope the raw power of thunderous therian is not to snuffed at it is basically RAW Power the double dance set is great for a versatile sweeper (Agility for offensive team and NP for defensive team) .The choiced sets are amazing for revenging

i also think that some of these bans are dependent on other thunderous may not be broken until rain is reintroduced klefki isn't broken without swagger how are the council dealing with these cases

 

[Taehl]

and there's many good abusers of sticky web like chalendure, keldeo

Just a nitpick, but Keldeo is banned.

 

[EonX]

Sticky Web is something I have honestly never used. Although I feel like it does have potential, it's a real shame that there's virtually no bulky user of the move (there's Shuckle, but yeah...) My problem with it is that you have to make sure spinners can't come in easily. And with bulky spinners like Donphan, M-Blastoise, and Tentacruel in the tier, that isn't an easy task. There's also the fact that one of the better Defog users in the tier, Empoleon, doesn't really care about its Speed in the first place.

That being said, there are plenty of Pokemon that can easily utilize Sticky Web support. This includes, but isn't limited to: Chandelure, Heracross, Metagross, Nidoqueen, M-Ampharos, M-Blastoise, and Nidoking. All are really solid attackers already, but the Sticky Web support makes them all the more difficult to manage if you don't have a defensive check or counter to them and Nidoking/Queen are already hard enough to deal with.

 

[Hulg Bears]

But why Houndoom? Let's completely dismiss the fact that it can't touch Chansey and that it has no priority. This one was the biggest surprise of them all.

 

[EonX]

But why Houndoom? Let's completely dismiss the fact that it can't touch Chansey and that it has no priority. This one was the biggest surprise of them all.

Well, Chansey did leave UU when we switched to using 1760 stats for tiering. Not many other special walls are able to reliably take it on. And base 115 Speed is really good. Only stuff like Tornadus-T, M-Manectric, and Scarfers could outspeed it. I do think it is able to be handled, but considering that the UU Council is simply trying get rid of everything that has a chance to be broken, I can see why they chose to get rid of M-Houndoom. Remember, everything will get a retest to see if it should remain in BL or if it is ok to stay in UU.

 

[asgdf]

and that it has no priority

Note that, while it isn't boosted by NP or Solar power, Sucker punch is still an option, and even off uninvested base 90 Atk it can be useful to chip off the last third off scarfers or fast frail things that would stop a sweep otherwise.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Just a nitpick, but Keldeo is banned.

Just a nitpick but Keldeo was moved up to OU by usage not because of any ban. Which means if OU players tire of him we will get Keldeo back.

I find Thundurus-T underwhelming but that's probably because I use Kyurem and Mega Ampharos and all 6 of my guys can KO him after SR...which now that I think about it doesn't say that much for Thundurus-T.

ALSO WHY WAS HOUNDOOM (well Mega Houndoom I guess I'm playing a regular Houndoom on the ladder now that has Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball...) BANNED while we're on that topic because kokoloko said it would only be banned if it got more than 6 votes and it only got 6 votes according to the UU np thread although I guess that could be a typo. I'm just sort of hoping it was accidentally banned and I can get to use him in UU now since I never did...

 

[Punchshroom]

I find Thundurus-T underwhelming but that's probably because I use Kyurem and Mega Ampharos and all 6 of my guys can KO him after SR...which now that I think about it doesn't say that much for Thundurus-T.

Well yeah, Mega Amph is one of the best (only) Thundurus-T responses we have in the tier, but Kyurem cannot beat Thundurus-T if it is not Scarfed or hopes to dodge Focus Blast. You miss the fact that not only does Thundurus-T have some great stat boosting moves, but its movepool allows it to threaten damn near everything.

- Thunderbolt is STAB, and has no trouble dispatching of the bulky Waters in UU, such as Suicune, Vaporeon, Slowbro, etc...
- Focus Blast strikes Kyurem, Umbreon, and Porygon2, OHKOing the latter two after just a Nasty Plot + LO boost, and is its strongest option for Rotom-H. It also pressures Snorlax as well, though Superpower is admittedly better for Assault Vest variants.
- Grass Knot trips up bulky Grounds like Hippowdon, Swampert, Donphan, and Gastrodon, while being more accurate against Krookodile than Focus Blast.
- Sludge Wave lays waste to Celebi, AV Tangrowth, Shaymin, Rotom-C, and Florges, while also smashing Chesnaught.
- Hidden Power Ice takes out Flygon and Zygarde.
- Psychic takes out Roserade, Amoonguss, and the Nidos. Also strikes Chesnaught.
- At this point it is very gimmicky, but Dark Pulse has its perks in hitting the likes of Trevenant, AV Metagross, and Reuniclus the hardest. Just a thought.

When an Electric-type does not need Hidden Power Ice (or any Hidden Power at all really) to break open half the tier, you can tell said Electric-type has a pretty killer movepool, or at least one that fits the meta (would you have seriously considered Sludge Wave on Thundy-T otherwise?). You said all your dudes can KO Thundy-T after SR, but I'm pretty sure the vice versa is true as well (bar Mega Amph).

ALSO WHY WAS HOUNDOOM (well Mega Houndoom I guess I'm playing a regular Houndoom on the ladder now that has Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball...) BANNED while we're on that topic because kokoloko said it would only be banned if it got more than 6 votes and it only got 6 votes according to the UU np thread although I guess that could be a typo. I'm just sort of hoping it was accidentally banned and I can get to use him in UU now since I never did...

It's probably the killer offensive stats, dual STABs, Nasty Plot, and Destiny Bond that may have nudged it a bit far, but that's just me. Its typing is pretty bad defensively, but it's no longer that frail as a Mega since its defenses took a leap significant enough to actually allow setup, plus it can find switch-in opportunities since it manhandles nearly every Ghost in the tier. It is about as centralizing as the Dragons and Crawdaunt are.

 

[elite4]

Wow I can't believe my whole team isn't banned ! I even got to 1500-something using this team lol

ok earlier I built a test team with hawlucha, salamence, etc just to try them out and see how broken they are, and not having much chance to test it out they already got banned, for good.

Hawlucha, crawdaunt and swagger are obviously broken so I am really happy they got banned.
Nothing popular in the tier can take CB Crawdaunt's Knock Off at ease except Chesnaught and Hitmontop. Even 252/252+ Tangrowth is 2HKOed by it after SR. It is really stupid to say it can be easily revenge killed because it can always switch back and come in this time with CB Aqua Jet which destroys so many 'revenge-killers' of it.

Salamence should be gone too as there just isn't any good walls to block it except perhaps M Aggron?

Haxorus can be taken care of by Slowbro though as there aren't any DD Crawdaunts around to use it as setup fodder anymore. I am neutral on whether Haxorus should be banned tbh. Its SubSD set can cause some real trouble if I am outpredicted but it doesn't get the bulk and priority like Zygarde does. If Haxorus is banned then Zygarde should also be, imo.

With Salamence and Hawlucha gone, Hydreigon may just become the new standard of the slowest 'fast' pokemon. So I suppose its ban is reasonable. But after its ban the same goes for Kyurem which has similar typing resistances as Hyderigon, but with greater power and bulk. Kyurem sets with Sub are sure going to give people a hard time.

Magnezone shouldn't go though. It isn't anything near 'broken' and isn't even a threat at all. First it really doesn't serve the purpose of Steel-trapper anymore since every Steel type carries something to KO it (bar maybe Forre). Also it has countless checks, and many counters too. (Rotom-H, Mega Man, Swampert, Quag, Gastro(against HP Ice), Nidos, Celebi with EP, etc). Also without Mag the meta loses many decent cores and is definitely not good for stall. Florges needs Mag as a teammate more than hates it as a threat.

I know nothing about M Houndoom so I can't say anything about it. I don't care about Klefki too (I don't think it influences the meta as much as how everyone says it does).

I see that Darma and M Blastoise isn't banned, alone or together. Hmm...

 

[mertyville]

Darmanitan has solid checks and counters and Mega-Blastoise is easy to wear down because it has no reliable recovery nor even passive recovery.

I am uneasy about Thunderus-T:

What can switch into its great NP-Boosted Coverage moves containing: Thunderbolt, HP Ice, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast?

What can revenge kill an Agility-Boosted Thunderus?

If anything somehow can take one +2 special move from Thundurus, what can take one of its great physical coverage containing: Superpower, Knock Off, Crunch, Wild Charge, U-Turn?

 

[Calloflochie]

Magnezone shouldn't go though. It isn't anything near 'broken' and isn't even a threat at all. First it really doesn't serve the purpose of Steel-trapper anymore since every Steel type carries something to KO it (bar maybe Forre). Also it has countless checks, and many counters too. (Rotom-H, Mega Man, Swampert, Quag, Gastro(against HP Ice), Nidos, Celebi with EP, etc). Also without Mag the meta loses many decent cores and is definitely not good for stall. Florges needs Mag as a teammate more than hates it as a threat.

not a counter

Rotom-H - Volt switches out on it
Mega-Manectric- Only a check/counter if it remains in regular form (which is complete ass) otherwise
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Swampert- I'm pretty sure all Magnezone's carry HP grass but maybe you're a prediction god idk

Quagsire- See Swampert

Gastro- No point running HP ice on Salamence hits dragons for the same damage as HP ice (besides Zygarde which still can't switch safely into a Flash Cannon)

Nidoking/Queen-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 355-418 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 126 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 319-376 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'd hate to see an unsafe switch in.

Celebi- Easy volt switch into appropriate check/counter

What you seem to assume is that because Magnezone doesn't beat a mon 1v1 if you are both in at the same time e.g. coming in on a double down, that it is getting countered. The whole point of Magnezone is to come in on the useful resists it has or on walls that can't really damage it and to hit back the other team with extremely powerful analytic specs attacks (as analytic boosts the power of moves when the opponent switches). However, there are Pokemon that can come in on Magnezone such as Celebi, Porygon2, Umbreon. But what happens when the opponent volt switches into say, Mienshao. Then all of a sudden, your 'counter' to Magnezone has turned you into a sitting duck to Mienshao. This is why Magnezone was broken, not only could it kill things but it could also leave you in an extremely advantageous position against so called 'counters' to Magnezone. With the few mons that did counter it, a simple volt switch could cause almost force another mon to die without Magnezone even having to kill it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94224182

Here is an example of a game my friend was playing with a team I made. The idea of the team was to exploit the few switch ins Magnezone had and punish said switch ins. This type of strategy is known to most as 'Volturn'. Here the opponent had two pretty solid answers to Magnezone in Celebi and Chansey, however, what he didn't have a solid answer for, was the imminent Volt Switch. From this, you can see just how easily Magnezone was able to bait him into mons that Mienshao could destroy and at one stage, he was in a cycle of around 5-6 turns with Magnezone and Mienshao gaining free momentum for each other.

So yeah I hope that kind of explained a bit better why Magnezone was considered broken by the UU Council :]

Edit: And if you say 'oh but if he had a Ground Type'

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-94229585

Believe me, the Ground Type didn't help :]