CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Fencerman]

As mentioned earlier, some of the major threats to this core are Aegislash, Landorus-T, Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Talonflame, MegaZard X, and even Mega T-tar. I feel that a fairy/electric type would be a solid choice, resisting flying, fighting, dark, and electric as well as being immune to dragons and neutral against steel. Offensively, this typing can challenge Talonflame, Mega T-tar, Azumarill, and MegaZard X, and it can be used as a pivot when correctly predicted against Aegislash and Rotom-W.

 

[shinyskarmory]

Unfortunately, my previous post was deleted, so I've lost a lot of my arguments from earlier. But I guess I'll take another look at things from an analytical point of view.

Right now, I want to create a pseudo-threat list for us to think about. I don't want to poll-jump to Checks and Counters, exactly, as that's another step entirely and our views on that will change as CAP evolves. Instead, I just want to throw together a list of mons that our core as is has trouble dealing with (fitting into jas####'s questions above) and then discuss what that means for our typing.

To start, here's a list of the top 30 or so mons in OU in the most recent available month of 1760 stats:

a list

Rotom-W (27.9%)
Aegislash (26.7%)
Heatran (18.3%)
Landorus-T (16.3%)
Conkeldurr (16.1%)
Charizard (15.6%)
Talonflame (15.3%)
Garchomp (15.1%)
Bisharp (13.6%)
Azumarill (13.3%)
Tyranitar (13.2%)
Latios (12.8%)
Thunderus (12.7%)
Scizor (12.6%)
Genesect (banned to ubers so who cares)
Venusaur (11.2%)
Pinsir (11.1%)
Excadrill (10.6%)
Mandibuzz (10.1%)
Greninja (9.5%)
Skarmory (9.3%)
Lucario (8.8%)
Gliscor (8.4%)
Ferrothorn (7.6%)
Landorus-I (7.5%)
Dragonite (7.4%)
Clefable (6.3%)
Mawile (6.3%)
Deoxys-S (6.3%)
Latias (6.2%)

Now, obviously there are some threats below #30 in 1760 usage (Keldeo and Cube are at 31 and 32), but these is just a baseline list of mons. We should aim to make our core able to handle a large majority (70-75%) of this list with only Lucario, Latias, and CAP18; only some of the pokemon on the list should be left to other members of CAP18's team to handle.

Here's the list again with the mons Lucario and Latias can handle on their own unboosted filtered out:

The list v2

Lose to both Latias and unboosted Lucario

Heatran (18.3%) (Lucario wins with Close Combat against SpD variants and has a 31.3% chance to OHKO against physically defensive tran; Latias and Heatran both bring each other to a full stop)

Lose to either Latias or unboosted Lucario, or outcome determined by coverage chosen

Rotom-W (27.9%) (Lucario scores a guaranteed 2HKO on 252 HP/0 Def variants after Leftovers with unboosted CC, but has a very high chance to be OHKOed by Hydro Pump after Life Orb recoil and the CC special defense drop; 252 SpA Latias can 3HKO any Rotom-W variant with Dragon Pulse or Psyshock depending on the enemy set while never being more then 4HKOed by any Rotom-W set)

Charizard (15.6%) (Lucario is outsped and OHKOed by both opponents, who it cannot OHKO even with Extreme Speed after Stealth Rocks; Latias has an 70% chance to OHKO uninvested MX variants with Dragon Pulse and can 2HKO uninvested MY variants without being OHKOed in return)

Talonflame (15.3%) (Lucario wins if Stealth Rocks are up but loses otherwise; Latias needs to carry Surf in order to OHKO after Brave Bird recoil)

Bisharp (13.6%) (Lucario wins easily with Close Combat, getting an Attack boost if Bisharp dares to Sucker Punch; Latias is Pursuit trapped and picked off)

Tyranitar (13.2%) (Lucario wins with Close Combat; Latias is Pursuit trapped and dies.)

Thunderus-I (12.7%) (Lucario is outsped and OHKOed by Thundurus with Focus Blast, and can only OHKO in return with Stone Edge; Latias 2HKOs, is never 2HKOed, and only fears Prankster Thunder Wave)

Scizor (12.6%) (Lucario has a 98% chance to 2HKO with Close Combat and is not 2HKOed in return even by Scizor-M; Latias is Pursuit trapped and dies)

Venusaur (11.2%) (Lucario and Venusaur-M can't really do much to each other unless Venusaur takes Earthquake, when it 2HKOs; Latias 2HKOs with Psyshock)

Pinsir (11.1%) (Lucario loses even after Pinsir-M SR recoil; Latias is outsped and OHKOed by X-Scissor and has a 37.5% chance to be OHKOed by Return)

Mandibuzz (10.1%) (Lucario 3HKO's and Mandibuzz can't use Toxic, nor its Dark type attacking move; Latias wins only if Stealth Rocks are up, when it can 2HKO, and is always 2HKOed by either Foul Play or Knock Off)

Skarmory (9.3%) (Lucario can set up one SD and then win with Close Combat if Skarmory Brave Birded or Extreme Speed->Close Combat to secure the 2HKO if it didn't. Note that if Lucario uses Close Combat at any time when Skarmory is not in kill range, then Skarmory will OHKO after LO recoil with Brave Bird because of the Close Combat defense drop; Latias wins with Thunderbolt and stalemates otherwise)

Gliscor (8.4%) (Unboosted Lucario loses even if it carries Ice Punch as it doesn't have QUITE enough to OHKO without hazards and is OHKOed by Earthquake after Life Orb recoil; Latias 2HKOs through Poison Heal with Surf and 3HKOs through Poison Heal with Dragon Pulse)

Ferrothorn (7.6%) (Lucario 2HKOs physically defensive variants with Close Combat and has nothing but Iron Barbs and Thunder Wave to fear; Latias is 2HKOed by Gyro Ball and can't do much in return)

Landorus-I (7.5%) (Lucario loses as it is outsped and always OHKOed by Sheer Force Earth Power; Latias outspeeds and 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse or Surf and can survive an HP Ice)

Dragonite (7.4%) (Lucario loses if he does not carry Ice Punch, but wins if Dragonite's Multiscale is already broken AND he carries Ice Punch; Latias wins with Stealth Rocks on the field and loses otherwise)

Clefable (6.3%) (Lucario OHKOs with Iron Tail and is 2HKOed by Moonblast otherwise; Latias loses no matter what it runs as it can never do better then a 3HKO and is 2HKOed by Moonblast)

Deoxys-S (6.3%) (Lucario wins if it carries Crunch with Crunch->Extreme Speed but loses in all other scenarios to Psycho Boost; Latias wins with Dragon Pulse when it 2HKOs with only a 10% chance of being 3HKOed by Ice Beam)

Excadrill (10.6%) (Lucario wins, unless it's a Sand Rush variant in the Sand; Latias beats Mold Breaker variants with Surf and loses if she doesn't have it)

Beat both Latias and unboosted Lucario

Aegislash (26.7%) (Can tank any of Latias' attacks in Shield Forme and OHKO in return; walls Lucario unless he takes Crunch or Earthquake)

Landorus-T (16.3%) (Unboosted Lucario loses even if it carries Ice Punch and Landorus is running 252/0 because of Intimidate; Latias can 2HKO if it carries Surf or 3HKO if it doesn't but takes massive damage from U-Turn)

Conkeldurr (16.1%) (Lucario loses if unboosted, Latias wins only if it's AV/Leftovers Conkeldurr, who fails to secure the 31% chance to OHKO with Knock Off)

Garchomp (15.1%) (Lucario is outsped and OHKOed and can't OHKO Garchomp without Ice Punch; Latias can never OHKO and is OHKOed by Garchomp who outspeeds with Choice Scarf)

Azumarill (13.3%) (Lucario can't OHKO unboosted even with Iron Tail and Azumarill OHKOs guaranteed with Superpower; Latias loses even if it carries Tbolt)

Latios (12.8%) (Lucario is outsped and OHKOed; Latias speed ties and can only OHKO if she carries Draco Meteor)

Greninja (9.5%) (Lucario is outsped and OHKOed by Hydro Pump, losing even though it can OHKO Greninja with CC if its type does not resist Fighting; Latias and Greninja both 2HKO each other but Greninja outspeeds our dragon)

Mawile (6.3%) (Lucario can't OHKO even with Earthquake and is OHKOed by Play Rough; Latias doesn't even put up a fight, never dealing more then 35% and being OHKOed by either Play Rough or Sucker Punch)

Mirror:

Lucario (8.8%) (Lucario wins 100% of the time; Latias 2HKOs enemy Lucarios with Psyshock)

Latias (6.2%) (Lucario wins with Crunch->Extreme Speed and loses otherwise; Latias wins 100% of the time)

Genesect:

Genesect (Grants an automatic win to both Lucario and Latias for being Uber in an OU match)

This analysis creates a threat list, which needs to be reanalyzed to see if it holds with +2 Lucario:

The List V3

Mons that already lost to Lucario unboosted are omitted as they do not need rediscussion. Latias is not considered here as all of her matchups were already discussed and giving Lucario +2 doesn't change that.

Mons that lose to +2 Lucario that didn't also lose to unboosted Lucario

Rotom-W (Lucario outspeeds non-scarfed variants and OHKOs with Close Combat)

Venusaur (Lucario 2HKOs Venusaur-M with Close Combat)

Skarmory (Lucario wins, but you have to be careful because Close Combat is still not a OHKO with one boost. If you are only at +2, you have to Extremespeed first so that Skarmory can't secure a mutual kill with Brave Bird, which has a chance to OHKO you after CC defense drop and Life Orb recoil)

Deoxys-S (Lucario wins, although now he doesn't need Crunch to do it-he can use CC)

Mawile-M (Lucario outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake, and takes less then 50% against Sucker Punch.

Landorus-T (Lucario outspeeds and OHKOs with Ice Punch even after Intimidate)

Mons that lose to +2 Lucario if he carries the right coverage OR has entry hazards OR gets lucky

Charizard (Lucario wins with Extreme Speed if Stealth Rocks are on the field, but loses otherwise against both Mega formes)

Talonflame (Lucario wins if he gets lucky with Extreme Speed and secures the 37.5% chance to OHKO. Otherwise, he needs Stealth Rocks in order to win.)

Thundurus-I (Lucario wins with Extreme Speed guaranteed with Stealth Rocks or prior damage but has a 37.5% chance to OHKO with Espeed if Thundurus starts at full HP and will at least trade kills if it fails)

Pinsir (Lucario wins if Stealth Rocks are up, loses otherwise)

Gliscor (Lucario wins if he carries Ice Punch, loses otherwise)

Dragonite (Lucario wins with Ice Punch even if Multiscale is up)

Azumarill (If Lucario gets a high dice roll he can OHKO with +2 Iron Tail, if not he is OHKOed by Superpower, and if he's below 45% Azumarill can just Aqua Jet anyways)

Mons that beat +2 Lucario

Landorus-I (Lucario is still too slow and still cannot OHKO with Extreme Speed, even with Stealth Rocks. You could catch him with an Ice Punch on the switch I guess?)

Conkeldurr (Lucario has a chance to OHKO with Close Combat, but has to take a Mach Punch first. If Conkeldurr is offensive with 252+ Atk and a damage boosting item, he OHKOs Lucario guaranteed with Mach Punch; if Conkeldurr is Assault Vest or bulky Leftovers he will not OHKO, but instead will force a trade where Lucario either kills with Close Combat and leaves him 1 more attacking turn before he faints from LO recoil, or kills himself with LO recoil after finishing Conk with ExtremeSpeed).

Garchomp (Lucario is still too slow and only does a maximum of 53% with +2 Extreme Speed, and he gets OHKOed by Earthquake)

Latios (Lucario, again, is too slow, although he does alright with +2 ES hitting for 72%)

Greninja (Lucario deals 88% with Extreme Speed, but that's just not going to get the job done when Hydro Pump OHKOs after LO recoil)

Aegislash (Lucario's almost there. He really is. But Aegislash can take a +2 Earthquake in Shield form and has a 75% chance to OHKO back with Sacred Sword. Even if Lucario survives, Aegislash can finish the job with Shadow Sneak since Lucario can't Extremespeed)

That was a full day's work, running all those calcs...

Ok, time to wrap things up and answer the questions:

Which Pokemon pose significant threats to Lucario and Latias?

Assuming that Lucario has a Swords Dance, the biggest threats to the core are Aegislash, Conkeldurr, Garchomp, Landorus-I, and Latios, with Azumarill, Gliscor, Dragonite, and Landorus-T becoming options if Lucario does not carry the appropriate coverage move, and Greninja being a problem if he gets a free switch. If Lucario does NOT have a Swords Dance, Greninja, Azumarill, Gliscor, Dragonite, Landorus-T, and Greninja all become excellent checks to the core, in addition to the aforementioned counters.

Honorable mentions go to Gengar, who Lucario is helpless against if he takes Earthquake in an attempt to beat Aegislash, and who can beat Latias 1v1 if he gets a free switch; Togekiss, who is specially bulky, immune to Latias' Dragon STAB and 4x resistant to Lucario's Fighting STAB, and OHKOs Lucario guaranteed with Fire Blast with 156 SpA EVs without having to carry a damage boosting item; and Zapdos, who resists Lucario's STAB, can carry HP Ice to deal with Latias, and who can dish out the pain to Lucario with Heat Wave.

Which Pokemon do Lucario and Latias not provide offensive Pressure against?

Aegislash, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Latios are the biggest ones, really. Aegislash is immune to Lucario's two best attacking moves and forces him to take Earthquake (even EQ doesn't kill at +2-there has to be residual damage for you to have a chance), and takes a pittance in damage from all of Latias' options. Scarf Garchomp outspeeds and OHKOs Latias with Dragon Claw, and he doesn't even need Scarf to outspeed and OHKO Lucario. Landorus-T Intimidates Lucario and OHKOs him with an Earthquake (Lucario can only win with Ice Punch if he's already set up), and takes less then 50% from both of Latias' STABs while dealing 75% to Latias with U-Turn (or can stay in and 2HKO with Stone Edge). Latios speed ties Latias and is better offensively, allowing it to effortlessly eliminate Lucario with Psyshock and hit Latias with Draco Meteor off the speed tie.

Which is more important when choosing a typing: Having a defensive typing that matches up well against members of the first group, or having offensive STABs that put pressure on the latter group?

Honestly, I'd say the optimum combination is a 50% offensive, 50% defensive typing (if that's even possible with 2 types). With stuff like Aegislash, trying to stop that Ghost/Fighting coverage defensively just ties us in knots and compromises our core against the other troublesome mons; on the other hand, CAP18 also can't afford to be directly weak to Aegislash. The other threats are much more stoppable defensively and really only beat our core by being incredibly fast, not by catching us with their STABs. Offensively, the only mons we really can't break through are Landorus-T, Aegislash, and Gliscor; instead we lose out offensively by being slow without Extreme Speed, allowing any fast pokemon that can take an Extreme Speed to blow up Lucario.

 

[FierceDeity1]

Looking at shinyskarmory's "biggest threats" its seems best for Lucario to run Ice Punch over Earthquake for better sweeping potential. That leaves us without super effective coverage against Aegis, Conk, and Azu. These three share no weaknesses, so leaving all three to our CAP would be tough. I agree that it should take a more offensive approach to dealing with these three, so it seems it may be best if its STABs help it take on two of the three, without sacrificing defensive synergy with the rest of the core.

 

[jas61292]

Reading through the posts so far, I think it is pretty clear that it is Aegislash, Fairies, and some other things, such as some Ground types that give our existing core members trouble. Now, obviously we probably will not be able to beat every Pokemon that gives the others trouble, and nor should we. But the exact specifics regarding that are for another discussion. Here, we want to choose a typing that will put us in position to mold our Pokemon into something that can beat those things that we want it to beat, and judging by people's answers to the first few questions I asked, those things will likely come from the general groups listed above.

As for the other question, I think it would seem that the general consensus would be to try and approach typing from an offensive oriented mindset. While obviously it would be wonderful to have both a great offensive and defensive typing, that may not be possible while still covering what we want to cover with our typing. So, when bringing up actual typing, it will be most important to justify how said typing helps the CAP support Latias and Lucario through the addition of offensive pressure. While I believe there will likely be typings that can do more than just that, this should be at the forefront of discussion for the rest of the thread.

And with that said, I'd like to see people start bringing up actual typings from here on in. Have at it people. Oh, and please respond to one another's suggestions. Type suggestions are great, but I can get a much better grasp of community consensus when there is a constant flow of discussion, pro and con, about any given typing.

 

[FMD]

Poison/Electric: I believe that it would be a great typing for this. It has 8 resistances (including Flying, Bug, Steel and Fairy, which the core has issues with) and two weaknesses. The Ground weakness is shared by Lucario while Latias is immune. This weakness can be mitigated or removed through various items, moves and abilities, so I see this as not being much of an issue. The Psychic weakness is shared by neither teammate, Lucario being neutrally affected and Latias resisting it.
On the offensive side, this gives us access to STAB Poison to deal with Fairies, STAB Electric attacks for great coverage and reasonable access to many moves to help patch the coverage of the others (Many Poison types have access to Water moves such as Surf and Aqua Tail while a several Electric types can use moves like Flamethrower and Fire Punch). Despite a major weakness to Ground, this Pokemon could very easily have access to many moves to overcome this, regardless of its Physical-Special Bias.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Oh dang I missed the first part discussion. Since we're going off offensive pressure, I think it's best to go for offensive types.

Fire/Electric is the way to go.

Offensively many Pokemon don't want to be anywhere near a Pokemon of this type. Talonflame in particular finds both its STABs resisted and is KO'd with an electric move, Aegislash is just melted. Most Fairies don't want to stay in either, as it resists their STAB. Defensively it provides useful resistances to Fire, Flying, Bug, and Fairy. Azumarill I admit is troublesome, but Azumarill doesn't want to be hit by Electric moves wither, and Latias resists Water, so Azumarill can't switch in safely and has to risk one of it's attacks just being resisted.

Granted, this typing does have its issues. It's weak to Ground and Stealth Rock. But this Pokemon is meant to work with Latias, who can switch in, Defog, take Ground attacks due to Levitate, and so on.

 

[FierceDeity1]

So my original thought on typing was Water/Ground, and I remember someonesuggesting that in the beginning of the thread. However, I like the Electric suggestions going around, so how about Ground/Electric?
Flying-types that are immune to Ground are hit by Electric, and Ground is useful against Aegislash and frees up Lucario from running EQ. Plus SR resistance, but Defog Latias makes that a little useless.

I also like the Fire/Electric suggestion for similatr reasons as my own . I'm not sure which has better defensive synergy, though, because that is still a factor even though we are focusing on Offense.

 

[Mova]

As I've mentioned before, a primary Fire typing could easily work, due to Fire/Electric and Fire/Normal resisting Steel and Fairy, while the latter is immune to Ghost. Fire/Fairy, on the other hand, still resists Fairy, but is neutral to Steel, which might be a problem. However, Lucario's frailty is all more the reason to support this typing, due to a Dragon immunity with Fire/Fairy.

All three of these Fire combinations allow Latias's Defog to actually have purpose, since they are all weak to Stealth Rock.

My summary: A half Fire typing should be the way to go

Also, DarkSlay makes a good point below about the Fire/Water combination.

 

[Mektar]

After a very very very long hiatus, I have returned to participate in CAP. While lurking during the first stages of the project, I've put a lot of thought into determining this Pokémon's ideal typing, and have come to this conclusion. CAP 18 should be Normal / Fire for the reasons that follow.

Normal / Fire
4x: None
2x: Fighting, Water, Ground, Rock
1x: Normal, Flying, Poison, Electric, Psychic, Dragon, Dark
0.5x: Bug, Steel, Fire, Grass, Ice, Fairy
0.25x: None
0x: Ghost

Blatantly Counters Aegislash
One thing made abundantly clear in the second Concept Assessment thread is that the core we have chosen gets wrecked by Aegislash. However, a Normal / Fire 'mon would solve this problem, switching in for free against its main offensive moves and setting up. This plan would work regardless of the eventual stat distribution; even with Sacred Sword, Aegislash isn't going to want to stay in on this thing (assuming we build it bulky/fast enough). Fire STAB also deals with Mega Pinser and Mega Mawile quite nicely, among other threats.

Relies on Lucario and Latias for survival
As you all can see, Normal / Fire is a poor defensive typing, taking SE damage from four of the most commonly used attacking types in the current metagame. This ensures that the CAP won't be too usable outside of the core for which it is designed. However, said core covers these weaknesses perfectly. Latias is immune to Ground, and resists Water and Fighting, while Lucario boasts a 4x Rock resist. Being weak to rock further cements the need for a way of clearing hazards in Latias. So, while not ideal, at CAP with this typing can certainly function in tandem with its partners. In a sense, Voodoom's biggest failing was in this regard. Its typing was too good, making it not only usable, but ideal, when paired with Zapdos, rather than Togekiss. Being based on a similar concept, we must look to the past lest we repeat our mistakes. And I should know, I was there when we built him.

Resists Fairy-Type Attacks
Fairy types also break our Lucario / Latias core wide open, dealing SE damage to Latias and hitting Lucario neutrally. Conveniently, Fire types plug this hole by resisting Fairy type moves.

Normal typing usually comes with Coverage Moves
The key point here is that no two types can check all Pokémon that break the core, but a movepool probably can if it contains all attack types. Said moves would be very helpful in terms of checking other miscellaneous problems this core has. I won't go into specifics, but having access to a strong Ice move in particular would be a huge bonus, as that would let CAP 18 check errant Flying and Ground types, which would otherwise be hazardous. This is the primary reason we need a Normal type. I am well aware that the three posters above me recommend Electric for its Flying resistance, but without coverage, we would be destroyed by Landorus-I and Gliscor, two of the aforementioned Grounds. This forces Lucario to run Ice Punch, limiting our options. Boom.

(note to self: avoid bandwagons and don't be hasty)

 

[DarkSlay]

Now that we've established that CAP 18 should be more offensively-minded and should have good synergy with both Latias and Lucario in regards to specific threats, we need to establish typings that both provide offensive support for the core and encourages the use of Latias and Lucario as partners. The following should be accomplished as a result:

• CAP 18 needs to be weak to Stealth Rock and susceptible to Spikes. With the current way this project is going, considering that we're designing a Pokemon that can take on Aegislash AND Fairies at the same time (a rare feat), we need to make sure that CAP 18 is heavily reliant on support from Lucario and (more importantly) Defog Latias. Otherwise, there will be little incentive to use Defog Latias as a partner for CAP 18, and players would easily be able to use CAP 18 outside of the core (what team wouldn't want a decent Aegislash check?). A Stealth Rock weakness combined with a hazards weakness ensures that Defog will be the optimal choice in the teambuilding stage, and its typing ensures that Latias is the best defensive compliment for CAP 18.
• CAP 18 should not be weak to Steel, Ghost or Fighting. Resistances to all three of these typings at the same time is impossible, but ensuring that CAP 18 will not take extra damage from these types by Aegislash still allows it to be a good answer to our number one threat to the core. There are other ways of dealing with weaknesses outside of typing, including stats and abilities.
  
• CAP 18 should resist Fairy. This is pretty much a given and has been established pretty early on.
• CAP 18 should be able to offensively tackle Ground-types. A weakness to Ground is actually okay for CAP 18, considering it's a free switch-in for Latias. However, where CAP 18 can really shine is by nailing Ground types for good STAB damage (preferably Super Effective). Offensive CAP 18 should make a great offensive check against bulky Grounds.
• CAP 18 should have good offensive STABs. A pairing of two good offensive STAB options provides much needed offensive pressure for the core, and tackling opposing Steel, Ground, Fairy and other relevant typings should be at the forefront of this discussion.

With that being established, there's definitely one paired typing that meets pretty much all of the listed criteria: Fire / Water.

Fire / Water has a 4x Steel resist, a 4x Fire resist, a 4x Ice resist (nice against Mamoswine), a Fairy resist, and a Bug resist. It is 2x weak to Rock (that is good), Ground (that is also good) and Electric (that is okay). Fire / Water is an excellent offensive typing combination, allowing it to hit a ton of threats for Super Effective damage, making it extremely hard to switch into. Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Gliscor, Landorus, Scizor, Heatran, Skarmory and even Garchomp will think twice about directly switching into CAP 18 with this offensive typing combination. It's weak to both SR and Spikes, making Defog support an extremely likely scenario, and its defensive weaknesses are dealt with very well by the rest of the core. A great majority of Fairy-types are hit for big damage by this typing, particularly Mega Mawile. Fire / Water is immune to Will-O-Wisp, which is a decent benefit for Latias and a great benefit for Lucario. Furthermore, Fire (especially) and Water moves in general have a penchant for causing Burn status naturally, which is great against some of the more physical threats that threaten the core. Azumarill may resist both STAB options, but having a chance to cause Burn status doesn't exactly make it the safest switch-in.

To address Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, I personally don't see a Flying resist as nearly as mandatory as choosing a type that makes it offensively better against Ground-types. Steel-type moves are very predictable, and Electric moves are easy to wall. Giving Garchomp a free switch-in will give this core nightmares, for example. I'd much rather have the firepower to take on all of our proposed threats offensively than worry about tanking hits from priority users. If we're going to worry about assigning CAP 18 a defensive role (something we've established that we don't want), we can designate that role to a fourth member of the team. Focusing too much of CAP 18's weaknesses and resistances loses focus on the offensive nature of the project, which isn't really wanted. Keep that in mind!

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I was gonna suggest Fire/Water myself, but since I got beaten to the punch, I'll use this post as more support instead:

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Fire/Water

Pros:
STABs are strong against Aegislash and Bulky Grounds
Resists Fairy STABs, whilst similarly not being to weak against Azumarril
x4 resist Fire attacks aimed at Lucario and Ice attacks aimed at Latias

Cons:
Weak against faster Grounds; Garchomp especially comes to mind for being part Dragon as well
Misses out on important resists, and requires to bulk to make up for that

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As you can see, I've made somewhat of a compromise with the three big threat groups I mentioned in my last post: Steel, Fairy and Ground. To be honest, though, I wouldn't recommend any other Fire-type combination, as Fire is weak against both Ground and Rock, which means there's no point trying to use Levitate to try and patch up the weakness to bulky Grounds since every single one of them has access to Stone Edge. But pairing it with Water gives it a chance to break through those bulky Grounds with STAB Surf or Hydro Pump, which can OHKO if we pump up the Special Attack stat. Other Fire-types are also not recommended because out of all the Fairy types they're supposed to resist, Azumarril is not one of them, which is especially worrisome cause it destroys Latias and can defeat Lucario with STAB Aqua Jet. True, you can also patch this weakness to Water with Fire/Grass and Fire/Dragon, but the latter removes the Fairy resist, which is mostly the whole reason Fire is attractive in the first place, and the former opens up a Flying weakness that must be avoided at all costs, considering Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are Pokemon.

The only weakness Fire/Water has over other Fire-types is against Electric, but that can be passed on to Latias no problem, with what most of them being Special attackers that she can tank. On top of that, the Stealth Rock weakness is admittedly handy to have as it gives Latias a reason to run Defog. This isn't the perfect type all-round by any means, but it's the best Fire-type combination out there in my opinion because of its capability of fighting back against bulky Grounds, which is important because Latias can't do it alone despite having Surf and Levitate to use them.

 

[Stratos]

Oh dang I missed the first part discussion. Since we're going off offensive pressure, I think it's best to go for offensive types.

Fire/Electric is the way to go.

Offensively many Pokemon want to be anywhere near a Pokemon of this type. Talonflame in particular finds both its STABs resisted and is KO'd with an electric move, Aegislash is just melted. Most Fairies don't want to stay in either, as it resists their STAB. Defensively it provides useful resistances to Fire, Flying, Bug, and Fairy. Azumarill I admit is troublesome, but Azumarill doesn't want to be hit by Electric moves wither, and Latias resists Water, so Azumarill can't switch in safely and has to risk one of it's attacks just being resisted.

Granted, this typing does have its issues. It's weak to Ground and Stealth Rock. But this Pokemon is meant to work with Latias, who can switch in, Defog, take Ground attacks due to Levitate, and so on.

damn, i got beaten to it.

There are a number of reasons we want fire/elec if we look at the goals our cap needs to accomplish. I suggest you read my first post to see where I'm going with my goals. Namely, since Lucario and Latias can beat fast Pokemon but not slow ones, why not make a Pokemon that slaughters walls but can't beat fast things?

1) Punish Pursuit. I'm talking really fuckin punish the use of pursuit. Short of having your own contrary pursuit, the best way to do this is to be able to hit it through king's shield for a KO. Fire is easily the best choice for doing this since it gets a 110 bp stab and doesn't get affected by King's Shield. In addition, Fire/Elec has good offensive coverage, meaning that very few Pokemon are safe switch-ins to the combo. In addition, unlike Dark, Fire actually hits the other main Pursuit user in the tier, Bisharp.

2) Pivot. Fire/Electric gets a STAB Volt Switch. The pokemon it will lure to try and wall it include: dragon types; tell me if i'm missing any? Latios can threaten dragons not named lati@s with its DM, and Lucario can set up on those named lati@s.

3) Synergy. Fire/Electric has holes, yes, but exactly the holes the other pokemon succeed in patching. It's weak to many fast Pokemon—terrakion, keldeo, greninja, ground types, etc. This is exactly the set of Pokemon that +2 Lucario or Latias excel in shitting on. It's also SR weak—need i explain further? In return, its STABs are unresisted by the bulky Pokemon in ou that the other two cannot beat. It resists Flying, Fire, and Fairy, so Talonflame and Fairy-types are fairly handled.

Remember: we need to make a CAP that not only patches the holes in the other pokemon, but needs them to patch its holes. Fire/Electric accomplishes this better than most because of its weakness to so many faster Pokemon and SR and Ground types; Fire/Water does it too but doesn't get Volt Switch sadly unless we really shit on gamefreak, and can't help patch our Flyspam weak. Most other typing ideas i've seen don't really help much at all here.


I'll admit this typing has some weaknesses. The most notable are Azumarill and scarf Excadrill, which would be a huge threat to this core each. Additionally, the CAP is neutral to shadow ball, so it would need decent to good bulk to switch in on Aegislash. I can't think of a good way to fix these problems except more teammates, sadly v_v so i'm not at all militant about this typing, but it's the best i could come up with after hours of thought

 

[topher4167]

So some people already posted about the type i had in mind (you'll see what it is later), so I'm going to use this post to give some feedback on types that have been submitted thus far.

Poison/Electric: This type doesn't seem very well thought out. I don't want to be mean, but it really ends up hurting our core here. It has nothing to handle Aegislash, and will be demolished by Ground types (with a 4x weakness!). The only threat that we need handled that it can handle is Fairies. Although it does have a few key resistances, its cons really outweigh its pros.

Fire/Electric: This type seems similar to the one above, with a 4x weakness to ground, but is a lot more useful. It can defeat Aegislash and Fairies, as well as Talonflame. It is troubled by Azumarill, but what I like about it is that it has a weakness to Stealth Rocks, giving Defog Latias a niche. I don't really have much wrong with this typing, but I think there are better ones out there.

Ground/Electric: This typing is good, I think, but not great. It can take out Aegislash and Flying types, but is defeated by Ground types and Azumarill. While it isn't weak to other Fairies, it doesn't have any supereffective STAB either. I think we could come up with a better type.

Fire/Fairy: I personally really like this type, because it makes me picture some badass fairy with flaming wings, XD. And it does deal with Aegislash and Fairies pretty well, and a Dragon immunity is very helpful. I don't have anything at all wrong with this type.

Normal / Fire: I'm actually pretty excited about this type, not gonna lie. It provides some key resistances AND key weaknesses that are covered by other members of the core. Normal does provide a variety of possible moves we could decide on in the later stages, and Fire is just really helpful to this CAP. I don't want to go on about everything Fire offers, however, because i list those below, with my preferred type...

Fire/Water: So this is the type I wanted to submit and is my favorite so far. It provides very useful 4x resistances to Ice and Fire, which Latias and Lucario are weak to, respectively. It has two good STABs that can be used to counter many of the threats to our LaLu core. It can use powerful Fire type attacks to defeat Aegislash and burn physical pokemon. It can use strong Water type attacks to beat Ground and Rock types. While it has no supereffective STAb against Fairies, it does resist them, and, with the exception of Azumarill, can hit them all for STAB neutral damage, and it can burn Azumarill to scare it out. It is also weak to Stealth Rocks, which gives Defog Latias an important role. This is why I think Fire/Water is the best type for CAP 18.

So with that, I believe CAP 18 should be Fire/Water.

 

[shinyskarmory]

So, following up on my previous post today, I'd like to talk a little bit about specific types right now.

At the moment, defensive synergy with the core in our typing is more important then offensive synergy. This is because if our pokemon's STABs don't align well with what help Lucario needs to clear the way, we can always fill the gap with additional coverage. If we make a pokemon with poor defensive typing, there's no way we can fix it in the ability or movepool stages.

Specifically, we want the following out of any individual type we choose with defenses in mind (there are certainly other types we'd choose with offense in mind):

• Should not be weak to Fairy type, Fighting type, or Ghost type. These are the primary weaknesses our core has at the moment. Fairy and Ghost both hit Lucario neutrally and Latias super effectively, and Fighting type is the primary coverage chosen by our sworn enemy Aegislash. It's alright to go neutral with one or two of them, but we should really aim to resist 1 if not 2 of them if possible.
• Should have some resistances to other types that are not our primary defensive focus. This is why I don't like Normal/Ghost, for example. Sure, it stops Fighting and Ghost cold, so it must be good! Except it has no resistances at all, so anything that attacks us other then Aegislash will be able to rip CAP18 a new one. Not good.
  
• Should not create too many additional weaknesses for us to worry about. There's a difference between creating a type with a Bug weakness (which is shared by Latias but 4x resisted by Lucario) and creating a type with a Psychic weakness, where we have pretty much no resists and have to rely entirely on pure bulk to stop attacks of that type.
  
• Should do something for us, defensively speaking. Sure, we could make an Ice/Electric mon to spam BoltBeam coverage. But that combo is useless to us defensively. Any type we consider with defenses in mind needs to actually resist the things we need it to resist.

In my opinion, the individual types (not doing any combinations until tomorrow) that best fit our defensive needs are Fairy, Poison, and Normal. Fairy brings key resistances to Fighting type attacks, as well as Latias' Dark and Dragon weaknesses. Additionally, it doesn't have much defensive baggage, as the only types it's weak to are Steel and Poison, which are both types that are weak offensively except for hitting Fairies. Poison resists Fairy and Fighting and absorbs Toxic Spikes, while having numerous good pairing options in the other types. Normal type's key property is that it's immune to Aegislash's Shadow Ball and only requires a Fighting resisting type to patch it up; however, I would only pair it with another defensive-focused typing, because it brings no resistances to the table and is horrible on offense.

If we choose a type with offenses in mind, here's what we want:

• Should be able to hit Aegislash, Landorus, Fairies, or Flying types for STAB super-effective damage. We need to punch through these mons to allow Lucario to sweep, and in lieu of stalling them out (unlikely given Aegislash's 150/150 offenses and Landorus-I's incredible damage with Sheer Force) we will have to hit them hard. Flying types are lower priority because we don't have a direct problem with them, but they are EXTREMELY popular in OU at the moment.
  
• Should not share types with Lucario or Latias. An offensive typing will need to be different from LaLu, or we're just going to hit the same counters over and over again.
• Other then for the purposes of targeting our counters, Neutral coverage is more important then super effective coverage. We can always take super effective coverage in the Movepool stage. It's essential that we give CAP18 the tools to succeed offensively or at least pose a legitimate offensive threat, and the STAB bonus is more importantly used to gain a type of move that hits most typing pretty hard then one that hits a lot super effectively but also has too many resistances and defensive weaknesses to use effectively.

Under those criteria, I believe the best offensive single types we have available are Fire and Water. Fire hits Aegislash, Skarmory, and ice types for super effective damage, and benefits from leftover Drought turns from a fainted or switched out Charizard-MY. It also takes Fairy attacks for NVE damage, which is a great plus. Water hits both Landorus formes for super effective damage and is wonderfully anti-metagame, hitting Charizard formes, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Talonflame for super effective damage. Its neutral coverage isn't half bad either, requiring only a little help to get around grass types, steel types, and other water types.

I'm going to play around with dual typings centered around Fairy, Poison, Normal, Fire, and Water, and get back to you tomorrow.

 

[Agile Turtle]

Why hasn't steel/flying even been mentioned yet?

Why Steel/Flying?

Reading through the posts so far, I think it is pretty clear that it is Aegislash, Fairies, and some other things, such as some Ground types that give our existing core members trouble.

• not weak to any of aegislash's common moves
• resists fairy
• super effective STAB on fairy types
• immune to ground moves
• also its stuf like lando-t and none of lando-t's common moves hit super effectively

 

[Ununhexium]

Throwing support behind Water / Fire

Like what darkslay said, it fits all of the criteria needed for this cap to function. It is susceptible to SR and Spikes. This makes it good to use in this core and not just a pokemon that offers good offensive synergy with anything because it can work nicely with Latias' Defogging

It has a nice set of resistances, and is not weak to steel, ghost, or fighting so that makes it a pokemon that works beautifully with given core (Latias and *sigh* Lucario). It can neutrally switch into Lucario's fighting weakness, Latias' ghost weakness, and 4x resists the STABs of steel types that hurt this core.

Can offensively tackle ground types. It has a water typing that smacks most ground types upside the head and a fire type which can damage Mamoswine rather nicely.

Resists Fairy. Given

Has a good offensive typing. Water / Fire is pretty awesome. It is only resisted by 17 relevant OU pokemon (give or take depending what you call "relevant"), can smack ground types in the face with Water, and melts Steel types with Fire moves. Its fire STAB also beats the crap out of Jirachi and Celebi (and others with similar typing) that can wall this core into oblivion.

Ive also been hoping for a Water / Fire for a long time so it could fulfill my childhood dreams :)

 

[Jewvia]

I think that to keep other sweepers from taking priority over Lucario, we would need two very specific weaknesses that Lucario has a 4x resistance against. Rock and Steel. Rock is not exactly a common sight in OU, however Steel is far from uncommon, with Aggron, Ferrothorn, and the ever fearsome Scizor leading the charge. Unfortunately, if we try and give ourselves a weakness to Steel, that will leave us threatened by Aegislash, who is immune to Lucario's STAB. If we were to take a weakness to Steel, we would have to give CAP 18 more speed than Aegislash, as well as a second typing that will discourage Shadow Sneak, such as Dark or Normal. Once again, this gives us more problems, as Dark leaves us weak against Fairies with 2 of our 3 members, and both typings make physical Fighting types a destructive force, with only Latias to defend against them. If we make our Pokemon a Fire type, he will gain a resistance against Fairy, and a weakness to Rock, two important things, however, we resist both Steel and Bug, which are both typings that Lucario can block, and Dragon resists us, leaving Latias as our only effective source of power against them.

So what would be our best option for CAP 18? Ice/Fire. As stated earlier, it resists Fairy and gives us a weakness to Rock, which are both needed to make this core effective. Ice cancels out our resistance against Steel, making Lucario's steel busting powers more prevalent, while also giving us an offensive choice against Dragons who hurt Latias and Flying types who hurt Lucario without running the risk of sacrificing Latias to do so. Additionally, this will free up one of Latias' moveslots, allowing it to take something like Surf to fend off off Fire and Ground types who threaten Lucario.

In conclusion, I feel that an option worth considering is Ice/Fire. It provides weakness to help promote Lucario over other sweepers while also covering up some of our chosen duo's greatest threats.

 

[Ununhexium]

I think that to keep other sweepers from taking priority over Lucario, we would need two very specific weaknesses that Lucario has a 4x resistance against. Rock and Steel. Rock is not exactly a common sight in OU, however Steel is far from uncommon, with Aggron, Ferrothorn, and the ever fearsome Scizor leading the charge. Unfortunately, if we try and give ourselves a weakness to Steel, that will leave us threatened by Aegislash, who is immune to Lucario's STAB. If we were to take a weakness to Steel, we would have to give CAP 18 more speed than Aegislash, as well as a second typing that will discourage Shadow Sneak, such as Dark or Normal. Once again, this gives us more problems, as Dark leaves us weak against Fairies with 2 of our 3 members, and both typings make physical Fighting types a destructive force, with only Latias to defend against them. If we make our Pokemon a Fire type, he will gain a resistance against Fairy, and a weakness to Rock, two important things, however, we resist both Steel and Bug, which are both typings that Lucario can block, and Dragon resists us, leaving Latias as our only effective source of power against them.

So what would be our best option for CAP 18? Ice/Fire. As stated earlier, it resists Fairy and gives us a weakness to Rock, which are both needed to make this core effective. Ice cancels out our resistance against Steel, making Lucario's steel busting powers more prevalent, while also giving us an offensive choice against Dragons who hurt Latias and Flying types who hurt Lucario without running the risk of sacrificing Latias to do so. Additionally, this will free up one of Latias' moveslots, allowing it to take something like Surf to fend off off Fire and Ground types who threaten Lucario.

In conclusion, I feel that an option worth considering is Ice/Fire. It provides weakness to help promote Lucario over other sweepers while also covering up some of our chosen duo's greatest threats.

lucario actually doesnt 4x resist steel. Rock is actually extremely common in OU, but Lucario has really bad defenses and it is often run alongside earthquake so thats a problem.

Also, it needs to be weak to SR. not completely crippled into oblivion by it. with SR and 3 spikes it loses 75% just by switching in! mach punch, aqua jet, extremespeed, vacuum wave, and even bullet punch all say hi.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I'd like to take a closer look at Poison/Electric, Fire/Electric, Fire/Fairy, and Ground/Electric, so I'm going to make a comparison between the four. Fire/Water has already been thoroughly covered. Let's begin by examining the typings defensively.

Poison/Electric
*0: None
*0.25: None
*0.5: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Poison, Steel
*1: Dark, Dragon, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Normal, Rock, Water
*2: Psychic
*4: Ground

Fire/Electric
*0: None
*0.25: Steel
*0.5: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ice
*1: Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Ghost, Normal, Poison, Psychic
*2: Water, Rock
*4: Ground

Fire/Fairy
*0: Dragon
*0.25: Bug
*0.5: Dark, Fairy, Fire, Fighting, Grass, Ice
*1: Electric, Flying, Ghost, Normal, Psychic, Steel
*2: Ground, Poison, Rock, Water
*4: None

Ground/Electric
*0: Electric
*0.25: None
*0.5: Flying, Rock, Poison, Steel
*1: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Fairy, Fire, Fighting, Ghost, Normal, Psychic
*2: Grass, Ground, Ice, Water
*4: None

I think that Poison/Electric might be too much for what we're trying to accomplish here, resisting nearly everything that would give Lucario and Latias trouble. However, I think it would also function too well outside of the core with the that typing. Ground/Electric doesn't resist Dragon, Fairy, Dark, or Ghost while being weak to Ground. It also resists Stealth Rock, so Latias' Defog utility is lessened as well. As such, I don't think either of these typings are defensively appropriate for CAP 18.

That leaves Fire/Fairy and Fire/Electric. The former has a useful immunity to Dragon, to which Latias is weak and Lucario is too frail to normally handle all that well, as well as resistances to the Dark/Fighting combo and Fairy attacks that give the core so much trouble. However, the latter resists Steel and Flying, which makes it a better answer to Flying types and Aegislash.

So, we should move on to offensive presence to best determine which of these typings is ideal. I'll be using shinyskarmory's list from earlier in the thread for this part of the comparison.

Poison/Electric
Resisted: Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gliscor, Landorus-I, Landorus-T
Neutral: Aegislash, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Heatran, Latios, Latias, Lucario, Mega Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Scizor, Thundurus-I, Tyranitar
Super effective: Azumarill, Clefable, Greninja, Mandibuzz, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Skarmory, Talonflame

Fire/Electric
Resisted: Garchomp, Latias, Latios, Mega Charizard X
Neutral: Clefable, Conkeldurr, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Gliscor, Heatran, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Thundurus-I, Tyranitar
Super effective: Aegislash, Azumarill, Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Greninja, Lucario, Mandibuzz, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Scizor, Skarmory, Talonflame

Fire/Fairy
Resisted: Heatran, Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame
Neutral: Azumarill, Clefable, Deoxys-S, Gliscor, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Thundurus-I
Super effective: Aegislash, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Greninja, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Mandibuzz, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Scizor, Skarmory, Tyranitar

Ground/Electric
Resisted: Gliscor, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias
Neutral: Clefable, Conkeldurr, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Scizor, Thundurus-I
Super effective: Aegislash, Azumarill, Bisharp, Excadrill, Greninja, Heatran, Lucario, Mandibuzz, Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Skarmory, Talonflame, Tyranitar

Both Ground/Electric and Poison/Electric are ineffective against Ground-types that can give the core trouble, particularly both forms of Landorus. If we were to go with one of these two typings, Ice type moves would be the best way to patch up the holes in coverage. Fire/Electric struggles with two major threats in Garchomp and Latios; Ice is the single best type to deal with this typing's shortcomings. Fire/Fairy gets neutral coverage on nearly everything; Electric or Rock would deal with the few that resist this typing.

In conclusion, Fire/Fairy is the best option out of these four choices. Defensively, it can take the Dark, Dragon, and Bug type attacks that Latias dislikes while also resisting the Fire and Fighting attacks that Lucario can't handle. It's weak to Water, Ground, and Rock; Latias can sponge the first two types, while Lucario laughs at Rock type attacks. Its susceptibility to entry hazards also encourages the use of Defog by Latias, and Lucario appreciates having a teammate that can absorb incoming burns. Offensively, Fire/Fairy hits the majority of threats to the core for at least neutral damage. Aegislash and other Steel types get roasted by STAB Fire attacks, while Conkeldurr, Garchomp, and Latios are hit super effectively by Fairy STAB. The bulky Grounds and other Fairies that may give this typing issues can be dealt with appropriate coverage moves.

 

[Deck Knight]

A few bits here, now that we're at the type proposal stage:

There are a number of Pokemon Lucario needs rocks (or Spikes) down to beat. I really think pidgeonholing Latias into Offensive Defog is the worst possible way to combine it with Lucario. It doesn't utilize Latias' bulk effectively, and it undermines entirely Lucario's ability to nab KOs. It also nullifies any Screens Latias puts up beforehand. Basically it kills anything Latias might do to support Lucario other than eating Fighting, Fire, and Ground type attacks. Limiting it to this specific set seems like a fool's errand, so while I'm not ignoring it entirely, my suggestion will assume we're using the Lati with 90/130 Defenses instead of 80/110 Defenses for, you know, tanking hits Lucario wants to avoid.

I also think requiring a Stealth Rock weakness is foolish when your proposed Defogger is Pursuit weak in general and Bisharp food specifically. Lucario beats Bisharp, but Bisharp neutralizes Latias.

I propose Poison/Dark.

W/R:
Weak: Ground
Neutral: Normal, Bug, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fire, Fighting, Flying, Ice, Rock, Water, Steel
Resist: Grass, Ghost, Poison, Dark
Immune: Psychic

SE Against: Fairy, Grass, Ghost, Psychic

Pros:
Offensive: Threatens Fairy and Ghost types. Provides STAB on Foul Play and Pursuit, both moves that can be used to punish Aegislash or the High-Atk, middling Def ground sweepers. Especially the Attack boosting ones. Poison and Dark STABS threaten things that Lucario and Latias presently can't, specifically by targeting Fairies and provide enough oomph behind Dark-type attacks to not simply be coverage. It can free up Lucario from using Crunch, because Lucario still resists Pursuit and Aegislash which would otherwise force it out without Crunch don't have STAB on it.

Defensive: Is neutral to Fairy, is neutral to Fighting (so no Sacred Sword problems), and resists both Dark and Ghost, allowing it to take attacks meant for Latias. Immunity to Psychic prevents it from dealing with Pokemon that can resist Lucario and Latias well.

Cons: Weak to Ground-type attacks, which means most bulky grounds will force a Latias switch. This weakness can also be addressed with Ability, Movepool, or even Item. Many of these Ground-types are also in a Speed tier where a realistic spread for this CAP's role will allow a first strike with Foul Play, which will be especially effective against Attack-boosting ground-type variants.

The typing is also neutral to FlySPAM, but uh.. .*we're using Lucario.* Our core can out-prioritize it, and Latias can run Reflect. Nothing in our core is even weak to it, and it seems like it's just being thrown in because "FLySPAM be powerful" not because FlySPAM is remotely relevant to this particular core. It resists Luc's Close Combat, yes, but it's weak to Ice Punch, and Latias can run Thunderbolt, and honestly, if we wanted to build a FlySPAM countering core we wouldn't have picked this frail + mediocre physical defense one.

What role does this typing have?

This Pokemon offensively threatens fairies, and the two Fairies with Poison Immunity, Mega Mawile and Klefki, cannot switch in effectively to Lucario. These two Pokemon also have one frail defense and mediocre HP, meaning Special Fire or Special Ground coverage will dispatch them, as, again, neither of their STABs are better than neutral and Poison/Dark also resists Mawile-M's Sucker Punch priority. Poison can also threaten a select few other Pokemon like Celebi, and now that Steel no longer resists Dark, Dark is a much, much more effective combination STAB with Poison.

As Latias is being using in a support role primarily and not attacking unless it needs to break something, most often the only interaction problems with this typing is that CAP 18 could Pursuit Latias. There are creative ways around this if we still want to pursue Pursuit, but either way I do not think it undermines the core, especially if Reflect is run on Latias in order to ease such a theoretical matchup.

Poison/Dark provides unique offensive presence that benefits primarily this core and few others, as few other cores need a Pokemon that can specifically threaten Fairy-types while providing a Dark and Ghost resist. While resistances are always favorable to neutralities, this particular core, with Latias' versatility and broad support, best utilizes an offensive Pokemon that will make bulk and Reflect support necessary to survive this core's onslaught.

 

[Korski]

The interesting thing about Lucario and Latias is that they already mesh well typing-wise and can resist almost any kind of attack, which is the stuff good cores are made of (between the two of them they resist every attacking type except Fairy, Flying, and Ghost). The big problem, however, is that Lucario's statistical frailness and reliance on Life Orb means it can't reasonably participate in tanking hits that force Latias out, specifically Dragon and Ice attacks, unlike Latias, who can take Fighting, Ground, and Fire attacks very well and Recover off the damage. What I am proposing is, instead of interweaving a brand new set of weaknesses and resistances into this already decently stable core, we give the CAP a typing that shares many of Lucario's resistances, or in other words create a "secondary Lucario" via typing that can actually perform the duties of covering Latias's weaknesses. Having Latias and CAP switch around into attacks while softening up the opponent is going to make Lucario's sweeping job much easier. Don't say you didn't see this coming, but I am proposing Poison/Steel as the typing for this CAP. Here's the breakdown:

4x: Ground
2x: Fire
1x: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Psychic, Water
1/2x: Dragon, Flying, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel
1/4x: Bug, Fairy, Grass
0x: Poison

Between only Latias and CAP, every type is resisted except Dark and Ghost. CAP would not only resist Bug, Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks, it would even resist every attack that hits Latias neutrally. With the exception of Dark and Ghost, Latias would be able to do the same for CAP. Lucario resists Dark and gets an Attack boost from it, so that's his end of the deal. Ghost is the only unresisted type, but that's a tough type to resist these days (and at the very least this typing isn't weak to it). Crucially, a Poison/Steel CAP can not only take the lead in soaking up Ice and Dragon attacks aimed at Latias, it can also take Fairy and Flying attacks, which Lucario can't do. It can take the chip damage from U-turn for Lucario as the opponent switches in a check or counter, removing Luke from a vulnerable position. It can relieve Lucario of Scizor-tanking duties as well. Yes, this typing doubles up on Ground and Fire weaknesses, but between Levitate and special bulk, Latias can take just about any of these attacks in stride (Mold Breaker Excadrill is a notable exception).

Offensively (and defensively, for that matter), this typing fills the Fairy-crushing role this core desperately needs. CAP can run the Steel-STAB Lucario has no room for and keep 3 whole moveslots open for potential coverage or support moves (you don't need both STABs with this typing). I mention coverage especially because Poison/Steel is sadly neutral to both of Aegislash's typical attacks and can't touch it back with STAB alone. Fortunately there are lots of steps left to better deal with the undead sword monster. Obviously, no single typing combination can do everything we need this CAP to do for the core, but I think Poison/Steel gets us off to a solid start when considering what sort of backbone we need to support this core.

 

[MudcrabDL]

I have two points to make before I continue:

1. I don't think hitting Fairies super effectively is nearly as important as resisting them. Many are frail, particularly on the physical side.
2. In addition, as an offensive STAB, poison is not effective against Mawile and Klefki, with Mawile in particular being a huge threat to this core. As such, hitting Mega Mawile super effectively is much more important than hitting say, Sylveon. The two types that do this are Fire and Ground, which are also two of the best types to deal with Aegislash.

I already made a case for the Fire/Fairy typing at the start of this topic, and I absolutely stand by it as the most effective way to go from here. However, I'd also like to voice my support for the Poison/Steel type, because of its godly defensive synergy with Latias. My issue with it is the absence of what is traditionally considered to be a good offensive STAB, but with a fortuitous typing like that, I'm not even sure if it is necessary. It could also function fantastically as a hazard setter, which Lucario would appreciate immensely. It doesn't really solve our Aegislash problem, however.

 

[Deck Knight]

"1. I don't think hitting Fairies super effectively is nearly as important as resisting them. Many are frail, particularly on the physical side."

Azumarill has equal bulk at 100/80/80.
Togekiss is biased to SpD but not particularly frail physically. Mediocre is closer to the mark.
Sylveon does qualify, yes.
Mega-Mawile is 50/125/95 and comes with Mawile's Intimidate.
Klefki isn't used for tanking, but its physical bulk is actually higher than its special bulk.
Clefable runs both Physical and Special defensive spreads, but you can bet on Physical for the playtest.
Gardevoir also qualifies.

I suppose we probably have different definitions of "frail," but the idea Fairies are physically frail doesn't appear to pass muster. Granted that Meteor Mash beats Flash Cannon and, conversely, Sludge Wave beats Poison Jab.

Either way, Earthquake or Fire Blast are better bets against Mawile-M, although its defensive increase on both sides is quite credible.

 

[FireArrow]

damn, i got beaten to it.
1) Punish Pursuit. I'm talking really fuckin punish the use of pursuit. Short of having your own contrary pursuit, the best way to do this is to be able to hit it through king's shield for a KO. Fire is easily the best choice for doing this since it gets a 110 bp stab and doesn't get affected by King's Shield. In addition, Fire/Elec has good offensive coverage, meaning that very few Pokemon are safe switch-ins to the combo. In addition, unlike Dark, Fire actually hits the other main Pursuit user in the tier, Bisharp.

I don't think punishing pursuit is much of a priority - Lucario can come in afterwards with a shit ton of momentum.

Bisharp is dealt with easily.
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bisharp: 552-652 (165.2 - 195.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 121-144 (43 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO (also gives luc +1.)

Lucario leaves with half health and +1, if you can predict the SP/Switch, you get a free SD.


Meag-T-tar as well
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Tyranitar: 412-492 (101.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Similar to Bisharp, +2 if you predict a switch.


Scizor is a bit more difficult...
252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 192-226 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...but if you consider what Latias can do first.
252 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 280-332 (81.6 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 158-186 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[MudcrabDL]

That's a fair point: I suppose I should say frailER physically. I just can't see any use in pushing for a STAB to kill fairies, as both Poison and Steel are by no means surefire bets, with Azumarill, Mawile and Klefki neutral to Steel, and the latter two being immune to poison, not to mention Neither help with our Aegislash problem, and Steel being actively disadvantageous with Sacred Sword going around. Better to hit them hard neutrally and have more versatility, than dedicate one or both typings to countering SOME of them.