np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

[Kingpoleon]

Hmmm? With Agility, nothing short of a Scarfed Pokemon should be able to revenge Mega Ampharos with Earthquake / Earth Power without taking a powerful hit first.

Also, people don't switch in walls on Thundy-T? If Thundy-T is threatening one of their Pokemon at the moment, they usually won't try to switch in an offensive Pokemon on it, instead offensive Pokemon are used to revenge kill. People scramble for bulky walls as responses to Thundy-T, but Thundy-T has the potential to hit / cripple any of them.

Charge Beam Mega Ampharos still faces issues with the Ground-types Agility Mega Ampharos has problems with, and now it faces the additional issue of being outsped by many Pokemon (Modest Mega Amph speedties with 0 Spe Nidoqueen, everything faster like Mega Blastoise outspeeds). Not to mention that not only is Charge Beam somewhat unreliable at boosting (70% chance to boost = 30% chance to not boost = 30% chance of Scald burn = happens all the freaking time apparently), but it doesn't work on Ground-types, meaning Charge Beam Mega Amph isn't that much better at plowing through walls than Agility Mega Amph.

Why are you worrying about HP Ground Florges when it can just Moonblast you?

Yeah. I played a MAerodactyl and Scarf Krookodile along with a dragon(?), maybe Flygon(?????).

No. Maybe it's just the people I play; I usually send it out after I get KO'd/lead with it(once), then they try to predict a move, go to a faster pivot, and attack from there. Another weakness the core has is Ice moves.

Charge Beam defeats all but the Ground types you don't stay in on anyway.

Idk.
Really though it is a solid core; if Mence gets unbanned, try running a DD set alongside them. Double Dragon/Electric sounds really good. Sorry if my other post sounded a little harsh. I didn't mean to be that rude. It just came out that way.
Edit @ Lochie: I am not going to argue anymore, but you are basically saying: volt urn is how you use Magnezone; since Volt Switch/U-Turn build momentum and leave you at a "worse position at the end of the turn"(basically implying no matter what), makes them broken by your logic. Please stop saying that good team builder means that you understand the meta-game. I never put words in your mouth. I simply made a guess at what I said. Also, can you please stop room banning me every time I come onto the PS! UU chatroom?

 

[Hidious]

Speaking of thundurus-t, which coverage move would be best for him on the double dance set? Hp ice gives essentially perfect neutral coverage but it is only 60 BP. Focus blast or sludge wave provide some more wall breaking coverage but your neutral coverage won't be as good so it would be harder to sweep offensive teams with.

HP ice seems like still the best option because of the coverage but I'd like more input from other players.

 

[Brammi]

Poison has always had brilliant neutral coverage. You just lose to ground types that you already lost to anyway.

 

[Punchshroom]

Speaking of thundurus-t, which coverage move would be best for him on the double dance set? Hp ice gives essentially perfect neutral coverage but it is only 60 BP. Focus blast or sludge wave provide some more wall breaking coverage but your neutral coverage won't be as good so it would be harder to sweep offensive teams with.

HP ice seems like still the best option because of the coverage but I'd like more input from other players.

Electric + Ice offers the best 2-move neutral coverage since they have the fewest resists between them. I'd say Focus Blast is your next best attack since it strikes Porygon2 and Kyurem, but notable Pokemon such as Bulletproof Chesnaught, the Nidos, and Trevenant wall it cold, while other attacks get walled by even more Pokemon. Electric + Ice gives Thundurus-T the overall least chance of getting walled.

On the other hand, 3 attacks Thundurus-T has much more freedom with its attacks since it can run lure / wallbreaking moves while still covering a wide variety of opponents.

 

[Punchshroom]

Welp, Thundy-T didn't last very long in UU :P Understandable though, since it can smash literally everything in UU with the right moveset.

Now they are suspecting Houndoomite, whose Speed is pretty damn high, its dual STABs great, and its Special Attack fearsome while also packing Nasty Plot, but it lacks Life Orb and has pretty bad defensive typing which makes setup substantially more difficult. It does have Destiny Bond though, which when combined with that speed can allow Mega Houndoom to prematurely KO one extra Pokemon. Thoughts on Mega Houndoom, and what possible cores that can be made with it?

 

[sickweare]

Welp, Thundy-T didn't last very long in UU :P Understandable though, since it can smash literally everything in UU with the right moveset.

Now they are suspecting Houndoomite, whose Speed is pretty damn high, its dual STABs great, and its Special Attack fearsome while also packing Nasty Plot, but it lacks Life Orb and has pretty bad defensive typing which makes setup substantially more difficult. It does have Destiny Bond though, which when combined with that speed can allow Mega Houndoom to prematurely KO one extra Pokemon. Thoughts on Mega Houndoom, and what possible cores that can be made with it?

Wow I didn't even get to use it D:

M-Houndoom is possibly the most threatening NP sweeper available and Destiny Bond lets it take on its biggest counters in Snorlax and Suicune (not even Suicune can switch into Doom tho) should worst comes to worst. I think it's good in the tier, but not over-powered. I do think that people here tend to underestimate it, however, because it is easily revenged by Scarf Mienshao. A good Houndoom user will be smart to be prepared for Mienshao and Doom won't really be wanting to set up anyway with a healthy Mienshao.

 

[kokoloko]

yeah punchshroom beat me to it, but the vote on thund went 9 BLs in a row so the result was obvious. council paragraphs are here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-uu-council-tiering-system-info-bl-retest-record.3502698/

the ones that are missing will be added later by Limitless / panamaxis / Ernesto / myself

we will be moving pretty fast with these retests btw, so expect the more obvious ones like thund-t to only last a few days. more controversial ones will obviously last longer but almost never more than two weeks.

and yes, houndoominite is next. i've already put in the request for the ladder update so that'll be live whenever Joim or Zarel get around to it.

 

[mertyville]

Well, so far Mega-Houndoom didn't look like a big problem, but now with all the Dragons gone it is difficult to see what can switch into Nasty Plot or Solarpower (and Sun) boosted moves special moves and for UU it does have a pretty good selection of special moves like Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power.
While it can't boost its speed like Thundy can (well, it does get Flame Charge), it already can outspeed almost anything unboosted.

 

[Boltaway]

kokoloko On the UU Banlist, it lists "Gothietelle / Shadow Tag" and "Wobbuffet / Shadow Tag." Does that means Shadow Tag itself is banned as well, and could Shadow Tag be banned independently from Gothitelle and Wobbuffett, since the two are clearly not broken without it?

I'm pretty excited to use M-Houndoom again. He's really underrated by UU players because he "dies to one hit," 75/90/90 defenses are a big step up from 75/50/80 and allow it to survive hits from weaker defensive Pokemon like Slowbro. Even if it can't sweep through teams (although it does 2HKO Florges without Super Effective STAB), it can still wallbreak to the point that any other sweeper on a team (I ran Keldeo) will easily clean through the rest of the opponent's team.

 

[kokoloko]

it means we might change the ban to shadow tag and unban those two

we might also test ninetales and vulpix independently, though. we'll see.

 

[Patrick1088]

Eh i sqw the thundy ban coming, but anyhoo. Mega doom is cool but it with the loss of chansey, it lost one of the best counters. But, there is a surefire counter to houndoom and that is snorlax. If youre paranoid about nasty plot, then run assault vest and boom it can take on +6 houndoom and not be 2hko (will double check). Also, since there arent too many psyshock users being used right now, barring starmie and slowbro, snorlax can take on every special attacker with ease. Then lets consider the ability to be revenge kiled by scarf shao, hera, flygon, scarf starmie (no sucker punch on doom of course).

Crawdaunt and keldeo were the most reliable checks to doom, but with them gone, well see how the tier fares...

Edit: +6 252 solar powered fire blast in sun has a 93.8% ohko 252/4 av snorlax thick fat whike a 252+ earthquake is a guaranteed ohko after sr...

 

[EonX]

Thundy-T was stupid. I didn't even try any boosting set and went with what was probably its least useful set, a mixed set. Yeah, totally wrecked. One battle stood out where a Celebi came in (expecting Agility or an Electric-type STAB I guess) and I just proceeded to kill it with Knock Off (great move to spam when you're in doubt) and U-turn (guess he expected Volt Switch)

As for Houndoominite, I think this one has the potential to be one of those suspect tests that lasts for a week or two, like kokoloko mentioned in his post. On the one hand, it has great STABs, a good Speed tier, and two ways of boosting its power; Nasty Plot and Sunny Day (via Solar Power) Without Chansey in the tier, there's no question that Mega Houndoom is harder to deal with, but as good as that base 115 Speed is, there are still notable things ahead of it, ready to waste it due to its lackluster defenses. Tornadus-T, M-Manectric, M-Aerodactyl, Crobat, and the odd Jolteon. Not to mention the many Scarf users that UU has (Heracross, Krookodile, Darmanitan, etc.) Very interested to see how this one goes as I believe it can go either way.
Basically, what I'm saying (and warning everyone) is that there's not going to be an answer that everyone will be happy with at the end of this, unlike with Thundurus-T where I think everyone agreed that it was too strong for UU. Don't be surprised if Houndoominite gets retested again in the future, regardless of the result of this test. That's how borderline I think it is right now and hopefully this test will give me (and everyone else) a solid opinion on it one way or the other.

 

[jamashawalker]

Idk about ya'll but im finding the real culprit to be Smash Passing. This needs to be looked at and addressed.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Not gonna lie, pretty happy to see Thundy-T go. For me, there was basically no reason not to run it on a balanced/offensive team.

 

[Shiny Minun]

Idk about ya'll but im finding the real culprit to be Smash Passing. This needs to be looked at and addressed.

I kind of have to agree with this, with screens up, gorebyss has absolutely no challenge breaking its invisible shell and passing the bonus onto a friend.

all I need is a free turn to pass +2 sp.atk and speed to nidoking and barely anything can survive but there are plenty of other notable pass receivers, my current team has Chandelure, Nidoking for this reason. Heck even Galvantula can grab a pass and start to break stuff with thunder and bug buzz, on top of its normal role in the sticky web distribution and perfect accuracy toxic.

The only baside I'd give this as appose to quiver passing is the boost in attack makes you more susceptible to foul play, so be careful, not that there are many things fast enough to jump in and foul play you over your smash speed.

 

[Ununhexium]

tbh i didnt find thundy t to be way too broken but i digress.

im happy to see houndoomite back on the chopping block. it definitely made houndoom into a powerful pokemon, but i didnt find it broken. which is good. i found mega houndoom healthy for the metagame and it made nice partners with celebi (and keldeo when it was UU in a FWG Dark/Fighting/Psychic core). their STABs together could nail most threats for a significant amount of damage.

i hope to see houndoomite back in UU soon.

 

[Jvasss]

this wil be interesting as the main thing that i used to check mega doom was hydreigon or keldeo, this is obviously not an option anymore, suppose ill have to use lax florges etcetra. or just revenge kill with scarfer.

 

[Boltaway]

this wil be interesting as the main thing that i used to check mega doom was hydreigon or keldeo, this is obviously not an option anymore, suppose ill have to use lax florges etcetra. or just revenge kill with scarfer.

How is Lax Florges a counter? It gets 2HKOd by +2 Fire Blast.

A Houndoom / Chesnaught / Starmie core is possible, although it has less offensive synergy. However, Chesnaught does a great job of taking down Houndoom's counters, mainly Snorlax and bulky waters (if it lacks HP Grass).

 

[kokoloko]

he means lax, florges

as in snorlax

 

[hobo bob]

I kept running into a common defensive core of Slowbro + Umbreon/Florges. I was getting tired of being walled to death so I decided to try out one of my favorite UU wallbreakers: SD guts Heracross. He can easily come in on Something like Umbreon, scare it out and grab an SD. From there you proceed to wreck everything with +2 guts boosted attacks. I use the following set:

Heracross @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Dark/Normal/Fighting gets surprisingly good coverage, with Facade being able to take out Fairies like Florges who would normally sponge Hera's attacks, while hitting flying and poison types hard as well. Knock off has great utility for taking off items as well as hitting psychics and ghosts. Here are a few calcs versus popular walls at the moment.

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 407-479 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 416-490 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 524-620 (132.9 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Surprisingly I don't find myself missing Megahorn, since it often offered redundant coverage with CC (except versus Psychics of course). Facade is worth it for being able to take out Florges, while also serving as a powerful nuke without the defensive drops of CC. I highly reccomend you give this set a try if you are having troubles with stall/bulky offense. I'm sure this set would work even better with para/web support.

Edit: I also forgot to say this set also has extra utility in being able to absorb Knock Offs once Toxic Orb has kicked in. Hera resists the move and obviously won't mind losing his orb after status.

 

[Boltaway]

I kept running into a common defensive core of Slowbro + Umbreon/Florges. I was getting tired of being walled to death so I decided to try out one of my favorite UU wallbreakers: SD guts Heracross. He can easily come in on Something like Umbreon, scare it out and grab an SD. From there you proceed to wreck everything with +2 guts boosted attacks. I use the following set:

Heracross @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Dark/Normal/Fighting gets surprisingly good coverage, with Facade being able to take out Fairies like Florges who would normally sponge Hera's attacks, while hitting flying and poison types hard as well. Knock off has great utility for taking off items as well as hitting psychics and ghosts. Here are a few calcs versus popular walls at the moment.

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 407-479 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 416-490 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 524-620 (132.9 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Surprisingly I don't find myself missing Megahorn, since it often offered redundant coverage with CC (except versus Psychics of course). Facade is worth it for being able to take out Florges, while also serving as a powerful nuke without the defensive drops of CC. I highly reccomend you give this set a try if you are having troubles with stall/bulky offense. I'm sure this set would work even better with para/web support.

Edit: I also forgot to say this set also has extra utility in being able to absorb Knock Offs once Toxic Orb has kicked in. Hera resists the move and obviously won't mind losing his orb after status.

I absolutely hate this Heracross set, and I feel as if I've battled you on the ladder a couple of times. The only thing that really deal with it is Gligar, who sucks, and even Unaware Quagsire gets 2HKOd easily. Generally, the only good options are to stall it until it dies to Toxic damage (takes forever and often wipes your whole team) or a fast Perish Song/Haze user. Special shoutout to Eviolite Doublade for being able to tank a +2 Guts Knock Off and take it down with the combination of Gyro Ball + Shadow Sneak + 2 rounds of Toxic. Otherwise, the only way to handle this monstrosity is to play with smart switches, haze it if possible, and outspeed and OHKO if possible (generally not true on stall). Generally, the most reliable way to beat this set is to know what it is, which is generally most evident on teams composed of wallbreakers and stallbreaker Mew.

It does do a good job of breaking through that core. AV Escavalier is another Pokemon that does very well in that role, being able to nearly OHKO Umbreon/Slowbro with Megahorn and Florges with Iron Head. Swords Dance Escavalier can of course accomplish this as well, but only on dedicated Trick Room teams.

Oh, and don't forget M-Aggron, who is often seen in that core as well. CC obviously OHKOs, but a tactical player can keep Aggron un-mega-evolved for Sturdy as a panic button (okay, that'd be me).

 

[termi]

I kept running into a common defensive core of Slowbro + Umbreon/Florges. I was getting tired of being walled to death so I decided to try out one of my favorite UU wallbreakers: SD guts Heracross. He can easily come in on Something like Umbreon, scare it out and grab an SD. From there you proceed to wreck everything with +2 guts boosted attacks. I use the following set:

Heracross @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Dark/Normal/Fighting gets surprisingly good coverage, with Facade being able to take out Fairies like Florges who would normally sponge Hera's attacks, while hitting flying and poison types hard as well. Knock off has great utility for taking off items as well as hitting psychics and ghosts. Here are a few calcs versus popular walls at the moment.

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 407-479 (113 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 416-490 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 352-415 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 524-620 (132.9 - 157.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Surprisingly I don't find myself missing Megahorn, since it often offered redundant coverage with CC (except versus Psychics of course). Facade is worth it for being able to take out Florges, while also serving as a powerful nuke without the defensive drops of CC. I highly reccomend you give this set a try if you are having troubles with stall/bulky offense. I'm sure this set would work even better with para/web support.

Edit: I also forgot to say this set also has extra utility in being able to absorb Knock Offs once Toxic Orb has kicked in. Hera resists the move and obviously won't mind losing his orb after status.

Upon first sight, I'm not a huge fan of this set. For starters, you're much better off using Flame Orb, as this Heracross seemingly wants to stay in for a longer time and run through stall teams. However, I don't think you really want to use Heracross as a sweeper, since the meta atm is full of things that outspeed it and OHKO it, no questions asked. Fire types like Victini, Arcanine and Darmanitan eat it for breakfast, fast flying types like Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl and Crobat bone it, and then there's plenty of Pokemon that have some coverage to take care of it (Mega Manectric, Mega Absol w/ Fire Blast), so if you ask me it's complete deadweight vs offensive teams. Even stall/BO teams can take care of it if they run smth like Tornadus-T (who is surprisingly useful on stall, really). I see this as a less successful version of CritDra, who can at least use Agility to pose a threat to offensive teams and doesn't slowly kill itself due to residual damage.

 

[hobo bob]

Upon first sight, I'm not a huge fan of this set. For starters, you're much better off using Flame Orb, as this Heracross seemingly wants to stay in for a longer time and run through stall teams. However, I don't think you really want to use Heracross as a sweeper, since the meta atm is full of things that outspeed it and OHKO it, no questions asked. Fire types like Victini, Arcanine and Darmanitan eat it for breakfast, fast flying types like Tornadus-T, Mega Aerodactyl and Crobat bone it, and then there's plenty of Pokemon that have some coverage to take care of it (Mega Manectric, Mega Absol w/ Fire Blast), so if you ask me it's complete deadweight vs offensive teams. Even stall/BO teams can take care of it if they run smth like Tornadus-T (who is surprisingly useful on stall, really). I see this as a less successful version of CritDra, who can at least use Agility to pose a threat to offensive teams and doesn't slowly kill itself due to residual damage.

Yes, faster threats are certainly a problem, there is no denying that. That is why this set works the best if you can pair it with some para support, but it can still function without it. Hera certainly won't be sweeping HO teams, but can still come in a resisted move (which is not hard given his nice typing), fire off a Close Combat/Knock off, then switch out. Likewise, I don't think he will sweep stall 6-0, since they often have a faster revenge killer waiting in the wings. Instead, I use this set as a wallbreaker to take out a problem wall or two, which paves the way for other teammates to clean up. It is to this end that I use Toxic Orb, since the first two turns deal less damage than Toxic Orb (and he is usually switching out after turn 2). Swords Dance is there in case you need to boost to kill something like Slowbro, or if your opponent lacks a faster threat then you can SD and demolish the opposition. But you don't always have to boost since many things are 2hko'd by Close Combat/Facade.

But yea, if you wanted to try to focus the set as more of a late game SD-cleaner, then I suppose Flame Orb would be a better choice. This set might not excel versus faster offensive teams, but it is great at breaking down defensive cores, and can take a hit or two if necessary. CritDra sounds nice, but wouldn't special variants have trouble with the big two special walls currently running around: Florges and Umbreon? Just checked the calcs for CritDra, damn it hits hard.

 

[newfren]

To be honest SD hera is never going to get to stay in for more than 2 turns because as soon as it kills something they get to force it out with something faster, so I don't much see the point of flame orb. Unless your opponent is running really heavy stall (in which case killing a couple mons with heracross will probably break it apart anyway) or if you're styling in as a late game cleaner, in which case there are better options - like scarf heracross, who can actually outspeed things, and by late game everything is probably weak enough for it to be cleaning anyway. SD Hera is a wall breaker, so it won't be staying in for long. Keep toxic orb.

 

[kokoloko]

LOL why are you using Orb at all? Just use a bulkier spread and Leftovers. You'll beat Florges anyway with +2 Megahorn (doing 59-70) while it does 64-78 with Moonblast without even running bulk. This is assuming the standard 248 / 236 Def / 24 SpD Calm spread on Florges.

The Heracross spread I'm talking about is 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe Adamant, so Moonblast should be doing even less. Speed's enough to beat Adamant Honchkrow cause I like to pretend that's still relevant.

Ernesto edit: Honchkrow is only not relevant until it is :o And you're suddenly thinking why the hell didn't you invest 8 more EVs into Speed. Also you can always run the old spread of 208 HP / 136 Atk / 20 Def / 144 Spe Adamant for better results.