What speed EVs would you recommend?
I don't use CB Talonflame, I use Sharp Beak, but they are probably the same regarding speed EVs.
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Item Choice Band and Choice Specs (Viable Users, and Current Role in the Metagame)
- Thread starter The Shellder Smuggler
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I don't use CB Talonflame, I use Sharp Beak, but they are probably the same regarding speed EVs.
I think you run 208 Speed EV's on Adamant Talonflame to outspeed Jolly max speed Pinsir. Then, the 48 HP EV's put you at a SR number, so everything works out.
Thank you, sir. And what do I miss with those? Anything I might care about?
That seals the deal, I'm changing my EVs. Thank you.
Adamant 208 leaves you outsped by Thundurus, who can then Thunder Wave before you can Brave Bird. (Or simply tank your BB and KO you). You need Jolly 136 in order to beat it 1on1 with flare blitz.
I'd say this is definitely the benchmark to hit if you're running adamant. If you want to run a faster talonflame (which I prefer), I go with jolly 224 speed evs, which puts me ahead of greninja. The reason for this is because I'm starting to see a number of things that talonflame normally preys on to run sash and go in the lead spot, as a lot of people lead with talonflame. The result of this is sash greninja and sash breloom. If you see breloom lead against your talonflame you're gonna want to u-turn out unless you want death by rock tomb. I've also seen scarfed darmanitan with rock slide.
You'll get 32 HP ev's out of this if you go 252 attack, which isn't too different from adamant. You'll hit slightly less harder but you'll outpace quite a few more things.
Pursuit is mostly for the Latis and Gengar. Most Gengar will 2hko Scizor with shadow ball now that steel doesn't resist ghost, meaning you won't be able to switch in unless you get in on a predicted poison move, while Azu's presence alone forces the Latis to avoid using draco meteor and makes them much easier to handle.
I'll give you that u-turn is awesome and Azu is dead weight against stall teams that carry mega Venu but unless you're building a team that already has trouble with mega Venu I would rather run Azu. He just has more bulk, better typing, and stronger attacks than Scizor.
Agreed, these are undoubtedly the best CB users in the current tier, and it's easy to see why-- f'ing strong priority. Oh and just being amazing pokemon in the tier in general.
CB Dragonite especially is like kryptonite to this meta-- no one is prepared for it, and the typical set of Steel/Fairies that check dragons in the meta are just really unprepared to handle it for some bizarre reason.
Scizor is a good Pokemon (and decent with CB), but Bullet Punch just isn't what it used to be-- blame this on Talonflame, Greninja, Keldeo, and Manectric being so prominent amongst the high-speed threats. Too many powerful threats that resist Steel compared to Dragonite's Ex-Speed.
Actually I'd say that Aqua Jet also has its own issues as a priority attack because of Latis, Greninja, Keldeo, and Starmie to a lesser extent-- but it makes up for it by clobbering Scarf Landorus-T and Excadrill.
WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
Yeah there are a number of extremely viable choice band users in the current OU metagame that are left out in the OP.
CB Dragonite is as amazing as ever. With stealth rock so easy being able to remove this gen, dragonite finds ample opportunities to abuse its multiscale and scare out opposing pokes. extremespeed is a godsend on a cb user, and with dragonite's naturally high attack, it can revenge numerous mons. CB outrage also really hurts a lot, and despite the existance of fairies, there are actually a shitton of teams that are surprisingly weak to outrage spam because no one expects it anymore. right now i believe that the best set is espeed/outrage/fire punch/eq just cuz it hits mega mawile hard on the switch in, but superpower can be used if you really wanna nail mega ttar or balloon exca on the switch in. another interesting option is ice punch, which can be used if you are really getting fustrated with landorus-t and shit.
CB azumarill. This thing is as amazing as ever. Its new fairy typing gives it so many new resistances so it has the ability to switch in numerous times throughout the match. its a good thing to send out against conk, ttar, mandibuzz, dragonite, charizard X, etc. nothing really likes getting hit by a play rough unless you're super bulky and you resist the move like skarm or mega venu or some shit. aqua jet/play rough/waterfall/superpower is pretty much the standard set right now, and for good reason, but since ferro is becoming extremely less common lately, another amazing option is knock off. it hits super hard and removes the foe's item which is always helpful. if you dont care about ferro, knock off is something to consider.
Cb Terrakion is good at all, although it really lost a lot of its effectiveness this gen. Its still super good tho. With its great typing and decent bulk, if you have ok prediction, you can basically make it a liability for your opponent to have heatran/ttar/chansey or something by switching to it every time they switch to that. they wont like having something on their team getting hit by a hard CC/stone edge. earthquake is pretty much non negotiable on the third moveslot just cuz Aegi is super common and is such a huge bitch. The fourth move is usually the most replacable; prolly the most common move is quick attack to revenge kill really weakened stuff, but ive seen players use stuff like sacred sword and rock slide as well. I personally really like using facade for that slot, this way, if you accidentally get burned by a rotom-w or something, its still bad, but its not the end of the world.
Moving on to some rather uncommon (and BL!) pokes, we have staraptor and diggersby, and crawdaunt. ive used all of them and they're pretty solid. for staraptor the best moveset would definitely have to be double edge/brave bird/close combat/u turn. it hits so freaking hard and its biggest perk is doing a shitload of damage to rotom-w, or outright KOing it if its even slightly weakened. stall will also have some trouble tanking hits from this thing unless they have a skarm. its so easy to pair this thing up with talonflame and just let the birds wreak havoc.
diggersby also hits quite hard, EQ and return can do massive damage to most threats. it gets wild charge which really helps it since now skarm doesnt wall you to hell and back anymore. oh and it also gets quick attack, if you really, really need something to be revenged.
And then crawdaunt, holy shit. with a CB, its knock off is sooo strong. if venusaur hasn't mega evolved yet, you can potentially 2HKO it with a cb knock off if its not physically bulky, which is insane. crabhammer does a shitload of damage too. Adaptability just makes this thing sooo strong and its really underrated imo. Aqua jet is self explanatory, and its a really good poke to switch in on stuff like chansey and hippo or something because then, its almost guaranteed that something on the opposing team will go down, or at least be 2hkoed. oh btw, with max speed and an adamant nature, you can outspeed minimum speed rotom-w and 2hko the fucker with knock off before you get burned or volt switched or whatever.
and thats all i have. im prolly missing some other good ones, like CB garchomp or CB ttar or something, but i havent used those yet to write enough about them. ill let somebody else do that, but im sure there are definitely some other really good ones ^.^
CB Dragonite is as amazing as ever. With stealth rock so easy being able to remove this gen, dragonite finds ample opportunities to abuse its multiscale and scare out opposing pokes. extremespeed is a godsend on a cb user, and with dragonite's naturally high attack, it can revenge numerous mons. CB outrage also really hurts a lot, and despite the existance of fairies, there are actually a shitton of teams that are surprisingly weak to outrage spam because no one expects it anymore. right now i believe that the best set is espeed/outrage/fire punch/eq just cuz it hits mega mawile hard on the switch in, but superpower can be used if you really wanna nail mega ttar or balloon exca on the switch in. another interesting option is ice punch, which can be used if you are really getting fustrated with landorus-t and shit.
CB azumarill. This thing is as amazing as ever. Its new fairy typing gives it so many new resistances so it has the ability to switch in numerous times throughout the match. its a good thing to send out against conk, ttar, mandibuzz, dragonite, charizard X, etc. nothing really likes getting hit by a play rough unless you're super bulky and you resist the move like skarm or mega venu or some shit. aqua jet/play rough/waterfall/superpower is pretty much the standard set right now, and for good reason, but since ferro is becoming extremely less common lately, another amazing option is knock off. it hits super hard and removes the foe's item which is always helpful. if you dont care about ferro, knock off is something to consider.
Cb Terrakion is good at all, although it really lost a lot of its effectiveness this gen. Its still super good tho. With its great typing and decent bulk, if you have ok prediction, you can basically make it a liability for your opponent to have heatran/ttar/chansey or something by switching to it every time they switch to that. they wont like having something on their team getting hit by a hard CC/stone edge. earthquake is pretty much non negotiable on the third moveslot just cuz Aegi is super common and is such a huge bitch. The fourth move is usually the most replacable; prolly the most common move is quick attack to revenge kill really weakened stuff, but ive seen players use stuff like sacred sword and rock slide as well. I personally really like using facade for that slot, this way, if you accidentally get burned by a rotom-w or something, its still bad, but its not the end of the world.
Moving on to some rather uncommon (and BL!) pokes, we have staraptor and diggersby, and crawdaunt. ive used all of them and they're pretty solid. for staraptor the best moveset would definitely have to be double edge/brave bird/close combat/u turn. it hits so freaking hard and its biggest perk is doing a shitload of damage to rotom-w, or outright KOing it if its even slightly weakened. stall will also have some trouble tanking hits from this thing unless they have a skarm. its so easy to pair this thing up with talonflame and just let the birds wreak havoc.
diggersby also hits quite hard, EQ and return can do massive damage to most threats. it gets wild charge which really helps it since now skarm doesnt wall you to hell and back anymore. oh and it also gets quick attack, if you really, really need something to be revenged.
And then crawdaunt, holy shit. with a CB, its knock off is sooo strong. if venusaur hasn't mega evolved yet, you can potentially 2HKO it with a cb knock off if its not physically bulky, which is insane. crabhammer does a shitload of damage too. Adaptability just makes this thing sooo strong and its really underrated imo. Aqua jet is self explanatory, and its a really good poke to switch in on stuff like chansey and hippo or something because then, its almost guaranteed that something on the opposing team will go down, or at least be 2hkoed. oh btw, with max speed and an adamant nature, you can outspeed minimum speed rotom-w and 2hko the fucker with knock off before you get burned or volt switched or whatever.
and thats all i have. im prolly missing some other good ones, like CB garchomp or CB ttar or something, but i havent used those yet to write enough about them. ill let somebody else do that, but im sure there are definitely some other really good ones ^.^
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
I have currently read all answers. I will be adding: Staraptor, Azumarill, Infernape, and Dragonite.
The Choice Specs section will be added. I will add it under the CB section, it'll be pretty much the same format.
The Choice Specs section will be added. I will add it under the CB section, it'll be pretty much the same format.
Terrakion is one of the best band users in the entire game, how is it not bolded? Terrakion can 2HKO Aegislash with earthquake, so its not like Aegislash made band terrakion that much worse. The only sets that were really hurt were its scarf set, and set up sets.
Machamp and Sharpedo are both generally subpar pokemon in OU (though slightly viable), and Sharpedo shouldn't be holding a band. Also have no idea how dragonite didn't make it onto this list.
Machamp and Sharpedo are both generally subpar pokemon in OU (though slightly viable), and Sharpedo shouldn't be holding a band. Also have no idea how dragonite didn't make it onto this list.
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The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Dragonite is on the list.
Choice Band is probably one of my favourite items, and I just love having a choice band user in any team I make. Here are my takes on the good CB users:
Tyranitar: In short, Banded Tyranitar wrecks absolute shit. Gonna leave some calcs before discussing what it can do:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 132-156 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Those are the damage calcs vs. the most relevant OU physical walls, obviously there are Slowbro and Mandibuzz, but you should know how well Tyranitar fares well against them.
Only missing the 2HKO on physically defensive Ferrothorn (and Hippowdon), Tyranitar can potentially 2HKO the majority of the relevant metagame. It's Stone Edge hits ridiculously hard, 2HKOing common Tyranitar switch-ins like Skarmory, while Crunch is another great STAB that got buffed with the fact that Steel types no longer resist it.
Other than 2HKOing the majority of the metagame, Tyranitar is one of the best pursuit trappers in the game and CB Tyranitar is the best set that utilizes this fact. It can easily switch into things like Lati@s and Espeon and ruthlessly murder them with Pursuit.
Entei: One move, that's all it took. One move made Entei so much better than it used to be, and that move is of course Sacred Fire. It's honestly the best move Entei could ever ask for, and it undoubtedly makes him a huge threat with a Choice Band. Nothing is safe from this thing with a 50% chance to burn- things like Landorus, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, who would normally switch into Entei to tank a hit would fear a burn resulting in their 2HKO, and it would cripple them for the rest of the match. Not only that, but it's base 115 attack and access to one of the strongest priorities in the game -ExtremeSpeed- makes him a pretty strong revenge-killer, and it has Stone Edge to use for coverage, and Bulldoze to OHKO Heatran who can absorb Sacred Fire.
Talonflame: The known smogon burd. Talonflame is one of the Pokemon that seriously shocked me, I never thought it would be that good just because of a single ability. Choice Band an Gale Wings EASILY make Talonflame one of the best revenge-killers in the entire game, and priority Brave Bird is so good it made certain Pokemon drop in usage just because of Talonflame's existence, most notable is Volcarona, and other frail set-up sweepers that depend on speed boosts to sweep teams, such as Dragon Dance Haxorus. It has U-turn to gain momentum and a load of damage to one of it's checks, Tyranitar.
Terrakion: I haven't used it much in 6th gen to be honest, but its power on paper sounds amazing. It could easily 2HKO Mandibuzz, Skarmory, (physically defensive) Hippowdon, Slowbro, Suicune and Rotom-W, even though some of them require SR for the 2HKO (Mandi is OHKO'd with SR), but it's still amazing. Its STABs are so good, even if there are Pokemon like Aegislash who shut it down completely. And it can even easily 2HKO Aegislash with Earthquake:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 228-270 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Since Azumarill and Scizor are already mentioned, I won't bother talking about them.
There are other Band users, but I never had the chance to use them. Those include Dragonite, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, and Crawdaunt. All of them seem to have incredible power (and especially Kyu-B and Crawdaunt), but for some reason they're so rarely seen. Choice Band is a seriously threatening item on the right Pokemon, but it has a serious flaw in that scouting with Protect can easily ruin it.
Tyranitar: In short, Banded Tyranitar wrecks absolute shit. Gonna leave some calcs before discussing what it can do:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 132-156 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Those are the damage calcs vs. the most relevant OU physical walls, obviously there are Slowbro and Mandibuzz, but you should know how well Tyranitar fares well against them.
Only missing the 2HKO on physically defensive Ferrothorn (and Hippowdon), Tyranitar can potentially 2HKO the majority of the relevant metagame. It's Stone Edge hits ridiculously hard, 2HKOing common Tyranitar switch-ins like Skarmory, while Crunch is another great STAB that got buffed with the fact that Steel types no longer resist it.
Other than 2HKOing the majority of the metagame, Tyranitar is one of the best pursuit trappers in the game and CB Tyranitar is the best set that utilizes this fact. It can easily switch into things like Lati@s and Espeon and ruthlessly murder them with Pursuit.
Entei: One move, that's all it took. One move made Entei so much better than it used to be, and that move is of course Sacred Fire. It's honestly the best move Entei could ever ask for, and it undoubtedly makes him a huge threat with a Choice Band. Nothing is safe from this thing with a 50% chance to burn- things like Landorus, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Mandibuzz, who would normally switch into Entei to tank a hit would fear a burn resulting in their 2HKO, and it would cripple them for the rest of the match. Not only that, but it's base 115 attack and access to one of the strongest priorities in the game -ExtremeSpeed- makes him a pretty strong revenge-killer, and it has Stone Edge to use for coverage, and Bulldoze to OHKO Heatran who can absorb Sacred Fire.
Talonflame: The known smogon burd. Talonflame is one of the Pokemon that seriously shocked me, I never thought it would be that good just because of a single ability. Choice Band an Gale Wings EASILY make Talonflame one of the best revenge-killers in the entire game, and priority Brave Bird is so good it made certain Pokemon drop in usage just because of Talonflame's existence, most notable is Volcarona, and other frail set-up sweepers that depend on speed boosts to sweep teams, such as Dragon Dance Haxorus. It has U-turn to gain momentum and a load of damage to one of it's checks, Tyranitar.
Terrakion: I haven't used it much in 6th gen to be honest, but its power on paper sounds amazing. It could easily 2HKO Mandibuzz, Skarmory, (physically defensive) Hippowdon, Slowbro, Suicune and Rotom-W, even though some of them require SR for the 2HKO (Mandi is OHKO'd with SR), but it's still amazing. Its STABs are so good, even if there are Pokemon like Aegislash who shut it down completely. And it can even easily 2HKO Aegislash with Earthquake:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 228-270 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
Since Azumarill and Scizor are already mentioned, I won't bother talking about them.
There are other Band users, but I never had the chance to use them. Those include Dragonite, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, and Crawdaunt. All of them seem to have incredible power (and especially Kyu-B and Crawdaunt), but for some reason they're so rarely seen. Choice Band is a seriously threatening item on the right Pokemon, but it has a serious flaw in that scouting with Protect can easily ruin it.
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The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Just a quick disclaimer - choice specs will be mentioned in another thread, since I can't change this threads title.
Like what Arikado said, Talonflame is an extremely threatening Pokemon in the OU metagame, being able to smash through things with Gale Wings BB and Flare Blitz.
Why isn't it on the list?
And the thing about CB Terrakion is that it just is so goddamn predictable and with the introduction of Fairy-Types, it just isn't as amazing as it used to be. However, it still is capable of destruction and still shouldn't be underestimated.
Why isn't it on the list?
And the thing about CB Terrakion is that it just is so goddamn predictable and with the introduction of Fairy-Types, it just isn't as amazing as it used to be. However, it still is capable of destruction and still shouldn't be underestimated.
I feel that in this fast paced metagame, it caused a very major difference in choices users. While I mentioned in the other thread thatthe best scarf users this Gen are those you don't see coming, the best band/specs users are quite the opposite, in that they are those you see coming, but can do nothing about it, those that will heavily dent whatever you switch in, regardless of switch. In such a regard, I find staraptor and crawdaunt 2 of the most effective band users, for both are capable of 2HKoing even Tyrannitar with a resisted move. That is what I mean by those you see coming, but can do nothing about it. On the special side, the best spec user is undoubtedly politoed and keldeo, or worse still, both. Notice the common thing between these few which I listed, in that neither uses a move which carry an immunity, all all have a massively powerful attack to abuse. last of all, note all these have the power to 2hko even resists, so they are able to keep up momentum even when choiced.
I've seen people suggest Dragonite as a good choice band user. I think however, The best item for it would be weakness policy. Dragonite isn't fast enough to be able to afford to run a banded set. It does have multiscale bulk but it can still get 2HKO'd easily by faster Pokemon that can take one of its attacks. Additionally, with weakness policy you can use dragon dance to boost its speed.
You can change the title by clicking on thread options which is on the left side on the top of the thread.
Also, just put 252atk/ 252spe adamant on talonflame as that is the spread on the analysis page and has been qc approved. You can talk about alternative spreads in its description.
I wouldn't go with Choice Band Mamoswine at all. Life Orb already gives good boost in power, while being choice locked on Earthquake (LOTS of immunities) or on priority like Ice Shard (Mamo isn't fast, so he uses Ice Shard alot) doesn't sound good for you. I wouldn't go with CB Mamoswine myself.
Not really, its main niche is being an effective SR lead with sash + endeavor and choice band doesn't help it get past its most common counter, rotom-wash. Plus, being locked into quake isn't good. Life orb already gives it enough power.
In fact, it actually make you weaker than Life Orb to Rotom-W, since you are unable to effectively use Freeze Dry.
A decent number of strong band users have been mentioned. I feel that band users have slightly fallen off due to the advent of megamons who often have all the power of a band/specs with the liberty of swapping moves. There are still some good ones like bulky banded entei and TFlame, but overall, I'd almost would rather have megapinsir, megazard-X or even megamaw due to their just as good up front damage with none of the drawbacks of band.
obligatory CB Ninjask plug
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Thats Dragonite the sweeper you are talking about. We are discussing Dragonite the Wallbreaker and Revenge killer rolled into one. Band gives it immediate power and you can, with Outrage immediately 2HKO stuff like Heatran and Bisharp, which paves the way for another sweeper to sweep better. Weaknite is the sweeper. Bandnite is the wallsmasher
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