CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Rotosect]

Regenerator, Shed Skin or Natural Cure seem the most logical choices to me, if we plan to make this CAP a pivot.
Keep in mind that SubToxic Aegislash is a thing, so even if this CAP manages to wall the crumbler set there is still that issue.

 

[jynx KB]

Poison Heal? Really? I personally think this is outright laughable for one main reason. Lucario

The purpose of a core is to switch between right? Lucario has great typing, but stat wise is kind of frail, so why on earth would you deny an opportunity for an immune pokemon to switch in for free?

Now this depends on coverage and typing obviously as Lucario's STABs are resisted if the user is a poison type itself (or worse, Gengar) but the point still stands that we don't need a Poison status absorber, especially since CAP is also immune to burn.

 

[Imanalt]

What does sheer force do for us that higher special attack later in the process can not? I would argue that it is, much like regenerator, a general "lets make this mon better" rather than helping us against our specific threats. It would be one thing if there weren't sheer force moves for both of our stabs and basically any coverage move we want, but unfortunately there are, so it is effectively just a straight up satk boost (and lo immunity).

 

[Rotosect]

What does sheer force do for us that higher special attack later in the process can not? I would argue that it is, much like regenerator, a general "lets make this mon better" rather than helping us against our specific threats. It would be one thing if there weren't sheer force moves for both of our stabs and basically any coverage move we want, but unfortunately there are, so it is effectively just a straight up satk boost (and lo immunity).

Regenerator isn't a generic "let's make this pokemon better" ability. This CAP is meant to be used as a third member of a core, right? Since Lucario is strictly a lategame sweeper, and Latias is an offensive/support hybrid, it's reasonable to think this pokemon is going to act as a pivot. What do pivots do? They switch in and out a lot. What don't pivots like? Reisdual damage, especially if it's weak to SR and vulnerable to Spikes.
Have you noticed how any self-respecting pivot has Levitate, Natural Cure, Regenerator or resistance (or at the very least neutrality) to hazards? At this stage this CAP doesn't have any of that.
This pokemon won't be able to fulfill its role if it doesn't get an ability that lets it switch in and out reasonably often.

 

[Yoshuriken]

I think No Guard is the best option yet presented. This accomplishes a similar effect to that of Sheer Force by using stronger BP moves instead of boosting weaker ones. It also lets him keep the secondary effects of moves he may get like Scald and Inferno.
I don't like Contrary, because Competitive seems to be a better option at this point.
I also like Levitate. It would help defensively with the stuff we want to beat, especially Ground types. All he'll really need is a Steel coverage move to be, in my opinion, good enough against enough of the Threat list. I also like Regenerator, though it doesn't help specifically against any particular 'mon.
Finally, I do not like Bulletproof. It only helps against Shadow Ball from Aegislash, that's it. That is not enough to stop him adequately, especially since he can run Shadow Claw instead. Finally, that's all it really does for this core, apart from Gengar. Imo, Bulletproof is too narrow in scope.

Tl;dr: Assuming CAP18 will get a choice of two abilities, my first choice would be No Guard/Levitate.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I'm personally highly in favor of Serene Grace. The opinions on it seem to be rather mixed though, ranging from it being overpowered to allowing CAP18 to be another Entei, so I'd like to address some of these a bit.

Finally, while I can see the attractive of Serene Grace Scald / Lava Plume, it just seems to me a powerful option that...is not really linked to what we're trying to accomplish; indeed, we will be probably able to cripple things once we're in, but that doesn't stop Aegislash from coming in, throwing Shadow Balls around and fleeing at the last moment, or Earthquake-spamming mons from ripping us apart if they can hit Latias somehow. That looks something that any team could use quite well (think Entei), which isn't really our goal.

I think, as an offensive ability, Serene Grace is definitely one that has high utility towards scaring Aegislash. The threat of a burn from potentially both forms of CAP18's STABs is certainly going to make any Aegislash think twice before coming in, so I really don't see how it "doesn't stop Aegislash from coming in." The main problem here, is once Aegislash himself is in, we don't want to to have CAP18 get smacked in the face with a powerful ghost move while trying to switch in ourselves. Having Aegislash "throwing Shadow Balls around and fleeing at the last moment" is much less likely to happen when against a serene grace CAP18. Let's just hypothetically say CAP18 comes in, takes a shadow ball and survives. If it has serene grace, its opponent seriously has to think twice before switching out. If it switches to a non-fire, there's a 60% chance of it getting burned. If it switches to a fire, well, then that fire type will likely be faced with super effective damage from scald (yes, we haven't decided on moves yet, but scald is fairly safely assumed since you're hard pressed to find a competitive water type without it). This in turn makes it a fairly difficult choice that the Aegislash user has to make if he wants to switch out. In a lot of cases, this will then be far from a free switch that will allow "fleeing at the last moment" for Aegislash. It's already a given that Aegislash doesn't want to switch into CAP18 due to the typing and risk of taking a super effective hit, but with serene grace it gives the opponent some doubt when thinking about switching out. If Aegislash is less likely to switch out, then there's also a better chance for CAP18 to gain some offensive pressure against this noteworthy foe.

The problem, however as I briefly mentioned, is that serene grace wouldn't provide any super solid options to switch into a shadow ball or shadow claw. Bulletproof might stop the former, but it is useless against the later. Serene Grace's chance of burn lowers the chance of taking two full powered shadow claws to the face, but doesn't stop a shadow claw + shadow sneak combo. But what abilities do we even have available that can stop shadow claw + shadow sneak? It's a very tricky dilemma. Without an extremely haxy rendition of flame body, I don't see much that can stop it. Something like poison heal might give the CAP increased survivability, but then it just encourages an Aegislash to switch out if it can't KO CAP18 first.

You know, thinking about it, I'm starting to like the idea of Serene Grace a fair bit. Both are very good for allowing the application of special effects/conditions while still maintaining offensive pressure, which is essentially what we're planning on doing if I've read the zeitgeist right. Indeed, CAP18 could, with these buffs, run pure attacking sets with Assault Vest, which would help shore up the Shadow Ball issue.

Serene Grace + assault vest could at least (sort of) help CAP18 switch into either physical or special Aegislash, assuming it has enough physical bulk for the former. We have a lot of unknown variables here, though, so relying on physical bulk that we may or may not get in later stages of discussion is always a risk.

Overall, I don't feel like Bulletproof is as good on an option as Serene Grace. Bulletproof might help switching into shadow balls, but it doesn't do much for shadow claws. Furthermore, if either variant of Aegislash is facing off against a Bulletproof CAP18, then it with have better conditions to switch, as the incoming Pokemon will have a considerably less chance of being burned. Sure, there are a few things that would actually benefit from the burn, like Conkeldur, but in my experience guts Conk will have trouble with Latias anyway.

As far as concerns that serene grace with burn chance moves will be too overpowered, look at Entei. In previous stages (such as the first two), there was a lot of hate on Entei being a bad Pokemon despite his 50% burn chance with sacred fire (though I personally disagree with the sentiment of Entei being bad). Having lower BP moves and slightly higher burn chances isn't that much different; if Entei isn't OP with his burns, I don't think CAP18 with serene grace would be particularly OP either. As far as concerns of CAP18 fulfilling Entei's role and somehow ending up in a position where it no longer does it's specialized core work anymore, I have serious doubts that serene grace would shift CAP18 to this extreme either. Entei's a bulky physical sweeper; we're not quite sure what build CAP18 will be (but there's even been a few suggestions in this very thread that allude to special over physical--certainly nothing that is finalized, but it also means being an Entei clone is far from finalized either if it were to have serene grace).

We want to counter Aegislash because Aegislash spells trouble to our other core members. Serene grace helps against physical Aegislash via the burn risks, and arguably can help prevent Aegislash from switching, or cripple another opposing team member in the event it does. Serene Grace provides a mixture of offensive and defensive support under the right conditions; it allows CAP18 to attack with moves, thus keeping an offensive presence, with the chance of lowering the opponent's attack to allow hits to be cushioned a fair bit. Of course, the trick is finding a way to deal with both special and physical Aegislash, and I must admit that is a challenge, specifically when switching in to take a hit if it becomes needed by the team.

Of the other abilities, Unaware is perhaps the most notable to me. It helps lighten the blows from swords dance Aegislash, and I suppose assault vest could help on the special side. Of course (even with serene grace) deciding on items so early isn't the point of the ability discussion either.

 

[FMD]

Regenerator is far from a generic ability to improve the CAP. It is easily one of the best choices if we want this Pokemon to both fit as a pivot and consistently help the core. Regenerator is what has given Slowbro its niche and given Amoongus its consistently replenishing bulk. In the presence of hazards with a Stealth Rock weakness, this ability would be lessened or even entirely overpowered. Without Latias's Defog support, this Pokemon could be effectively without an ability. I can scarcely think of a better defensive ability that wouldn't defeat the purpose of this core, as would happen with an ability such as Magic Guard.
I feel that Regenerator would provide a solution to the steady wear that would otherwise come from a core constantly switching places, allowing this CAP to act as a very effective pivot between the other two core members. The ability to repeatedly get them (mainly Lucario) in safely will be invaluable to the success of the core in a way not much else can. This also reduces the threat of switching in on attacks from our major threats, such as a Shadow Ball from Aegislash.

 

[Ununhexium]

The only issue I have with some of these abilities is that they are just good abilities in general other than ones that contribute especially to this core, mainly Serene Grace and Regenerator. Maybe these could be a secondary ability but as a primary I am not sure how directly relevant they are to this core. Simplified, they are good abilities but I don't know how this will makes it a good core member and not just a good pokemon in general.

EDIT: I'm not saying being a good core member and a good (standalone) pokemon are mutually exclusive, I just want to say that it shouldn't have an ability that makes it too powerful as a standalone pokemon as it is supposed to be supported by Latias/Lucario

 

[Rotosect]

The only issue I have with some of these abilities is that they are just good abilities in general other than ones that contribute especially to this core, mainly Serene Grace and Regenerator. Maybe these could be a secondary ability but as a primary I am not sure how directly relevant they are to this core. Simplified, they are good abilities but I don't know how this will makes it a good core member and not just a good pokemon in general.

Being a good core member and a good pokemon in general aren't mutually exclusive things, quite the opposite in fact.
This CAP is meant to take two low-OU pokemon to mid- or possibly high-OU, so by extension this pokemon needs to be mid-to-high OU material in itself.
Also don't forget there are still the stats and movepool stages ahead, so if an ability ends up being useful for something outside its intended purpose, there is still the chance to fix it later.

 

[Scoopapa]

And if Sheer Force makes this mon able to fit into this core the best it can, then does it really matter if it sees usage outside the core? After all, Lucario and Latias are already used oust side of cores, why shouldn't CAP be too?

So in the OP of every thread posted since the concept was chosen has appeared the original "Questions to be answered" part of the concept submission. This will continue to appear in the OP of every thread on this project because it's very important. Look at the bolded part:

Questions to Be Answered:

• How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
• Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
• What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
• How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
• Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
• Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
• Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?

So the answer is yes, whether or not this pokemon is good outside of the core does matter because the difference between "good in general" and "good because of synergy" is one of the concepts we are exploring with this project.

 

[jas61292]

So, while there definitely are a few options here that I like, I'd like to instead start off talking about one that I think would be a very bad choice for this project: Bulletproof.

We have our list of threats, and one of the things on it is Aegislash. However, it is important to remember that this list is of things we want to threaten either offensively or defensively. People arguing for Bulletproof clearly want to look at this from a defensive perspective, but in reality, it fails to even successfully do that much at all. The fact is Bulletproof is ridiculously specific. It is using an entire ability to beat one single set on one single Pokemon, and honestly, it only does a mediocre job at that. We don't resist Aegislash's coverage moves meaning immunity to shadow ball is far from meaning it is a safe switch in. And, beyond that set, Aegislash has 2 offensive stats of base 150. Being immune to one attack on one side doesn't mean much when it can just run an attack on the other side that does almost as well. Simply put, Bulletproof is super Aegislash specific, but doesn't even stop Aegislash.

Now, I have heard people on IRC talk about how getting Aegislash to run Shadow Claw > Shadow Ball is a victory in and of itself, but I don't see it that way. Maybe it is a victory, but for who? Our core? Certainly not. Shadow Claw hurts Latias MORE than Shadow Ball, and Luke is screwed against it either way. The only way it is helping is that it might allow a 4th Pokemon to do better against it, but how does that help the core? It doesn't. At least not more than every single other OU team.


Now, as for abilities that I do like, Regenerator is probably my favorite. If you want something that actually lets us better deal with Aegislash, this is it. We have SE STAB on it. We are likely going to be able to hit it hard. However, we can't switch in as easily. Since trapping is pretty much out of the question at this point, if we want to beat it, we want something that can switch into it multiple times and KO it or force it out multiple times. While other methods of recovery are plausible, with a hazard weakness, none will help us fill this role, as well as a pivot role in the core as a whole, better than Regenerator.

 

[Nyktos]

I want to address the claims that Bulletproof will make CAP 18 too good outside of our core. That's just not a good argument. While we don't want to encourage its use in other places, it is nearly unheard of (outside the likes of weather teams) to see a Pokémon that can be legitimately called good that is completely worthless except when used alongside not one but two specific other Pokémon. CAP 18 will be viable outside the core, or it will be bad, core or no core. Certainly, any choice made anywhere in the CAP that doesn't help the core is bad choice, but Bulletproof clearly does help the core. The argument that Bulletproof is "too specific" is also absurd. Our threatlist requires us to be able to take strong STAB Shadow Balls but lose to strong STAB Water attacks. Given that we're neutral to both, Bulletproof is literally the only way to do that. Furthermore, when Shadow Ball is set aside, our threatlist translates quite nicely to stats while taking it into account we're going to have nothing but bad-or-worse choices to make at that stage. Yes, Bulletproof is seemingly fairly niche, but taking into account the threatlist it does pretty much everything we'd want.

 

[jas61292]

I want to address the claims that Bulletproof will make CAP 18 too good outside of our core. That's just not a good argument. While we don't want to encourage its use in other places, it is nearly unheard of (outside the likes of weather teams) to see a Pokémon that can be legitimately called good that is completely worthless except when used alongside not one but two specific other Pokémon. CAP 18 will be viable outside the core, or it will be bad, core or no core. Certainly, any choice made anywhere in the CAP that doesn't help the core is bad choice, but Bulletproof clearly does help the core. The argument that Bulletproof is "too specific" is also absurd. Our threatlist requires us to be able to take strong STAB Shadow Balls but lose to strong STAB Water attacks. Given that we're neutral to both, Bulletproof is literally the only way to do that. Furthermore, when Shadow Ball is set aside, our threatlist translates quite nicely to stats while taking it into account we're going to have nothing but bad-or-worse choices to make at that stage. Yes, Bulletproof is seemingly fairly niche, but taking into account the threatlist it does pretty much everything we'd want.

Its too specific, not because it is just focused on Aegislash. It is too specific because it is focused on just one set on Aegislash, when that one set is no more or less threatening to our core than any other set it can run. If for some reason its other sets failed to beat our core that would be one thing, but they don't. Simply forcing it to run different moves to beat us is not a victory for our core at all.

 

[Imanalt]

So, while there definitely are a few options here that I like, I'd like to instead start off talking about one that I think would be a very bad choice for this project: Bulletproof.

We have our list of threats, and one of the things on it is Aegislash. However, it is important to remember that this list is of things we want to threaten either offensively or defensively. People arguing for Bulletproof clearly want to look at this from a defensive perspective, but in reality, it fails to even successfully do that much at all. The fact is Bulletproof is ridiculously specific. It is using an entire ability to beat one single set on one single Pokemon, and honestly, it only does a mediocre job at that. We don't resist Aegislash's coverage moves meaning immunity to shadow ball is far from meaning it is a safe switch in. And, beyond that set, Aegislash has 2 offensive stats of base 150. Being immune to one attack on one side doesn't mean much when it can just run an attack on the other side that does almost as well. Simply put, Bulletproof is super Aegislash specific, but doesn't even stop Aegislash.

Now, I have heard people on IRC talk about how getting Aegislash to run Shadow Claw > Shadow Ball is a victory in and of itself, but I don't see it that way. Maybe it is a victory, but for who? Our core? Certainly not. Shadow Claw hurts Latias MORE than Shadow Ball, and Luke is screwed against it either way. The only way it is helping is that it might allow a 4th Pokemon to do better against it, but how does that help the core? It doesn't. At least not more than every single other OU team.


Now, as for abilities that I do like, Regenerator is probably my favorite. If you want something that actually lets us better deal with Aegislash, this is it. We have SE STAB on it. We are likely going to be able to hit it hard. However, we can't switch in as easily. Since trapping is pretty much out of the question at this point, if we want to beat it, we want something that can switch into it multiple times and KO it or force it out multiple times. While other methods of recovery are plausible, with a hazard weakness, none will help us fill this role, as well as a pivot role in the core as a whole, better than Regenerator.

two things i want to say in response to this post. First in reply to the bolded section, a core is inherently the best if it puts as little strain on the rest of the team as possible. As such beating special aegislash and only making the rest of the team beat physical aegislash inherently makes it a better core. Secondly, i would argue that due to the fact almost nothing currently beats mixed aegislash defensively with any reliability, and we offer it two very easy switchins with latias and lucario, any team utilizing our core will have to switch into it frequently, and with currently existing pokemon almost no teams can viably switch into mixed aegislash frequently. This is why bulletproof is needed, it lowers the stress running this core puts on the remainder of the team.

 

[Impy]

I know bulletproof was talked about, but I think with enough bulk and sheer power, we can counter Aegislash without it. I think Levitate is much more important, if we want to be able to beat Landorus and Garchomp. Otherwise they take massive dumps on this core. I just don't know how it will fit into the flavor of our critter. Maybe it shoots into the air with steam or something? I dunno. But Levitate gives CAP a much needed advantage over ground STAB. I know Latias has levitate, but it's on the specially defensive side, and I'm thinking ahead to CAP's probably inevitable physical bulk. Lucario wants as many friends who can take a fighting or ground attack as possible. This way every member of Luke's core can handle all of his weaknesses, making him that much more likely to set up and sweep the way we want him to.

 

[JEFLIV]

I agree with Impy, Levitate gives us a very helpful boost to deal with Ground-type STAB. It's fairly necessary to have some kind of answer to Earthquake. Can we also talk about Serene Grace some more? This thing's STAB types both have plenty of moves with added effects, especially burn (Scald and many Fire-type attacks) and the ability would be an excellent way to counteract common threats.

 

[Galladium]

I don't think Bulletproof is such a good idea. It counters Shadow ball Aegislash and Gengar, but not much else. Levitate allows us to counter most Ground types (providing they don't have Stone Edge), but is destroyed by Mold Breaker Excadrill. I think Regenerator is probably the best option, CAP 18 can 1v1 destroy Ground types with STAB Hydro pump / Scald and then pivot out if one of its counters is sent in.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I agree with Impy, Levitate gives us a very helpful boost to deal with Ground-type STAB. It's fairly necessary to have some kind of answer to Earthquake. Can we also talk about Serene Grace some more? This thing's STAB types both have plenty of moves with added effects, especially burn (Scald and many Fire-type attacks) and the ability would be an excellent way to counteract common threats.

We already have Latias in the core for that. I honestly don't understand the point of giving CAP18 Levitate, Latias already has it and if CAP18 fears hazards we can just give it Regenerator, which also nullifies Stealth Rock. But Serene Grace definitely seems interesting, if CAP18 gets Lava Plume that 60% burn chance is very good, its even better if we give it Sacred Fire (Entei gets it now, so its no longer a legendary exclusive), where its a 100% chance of burn, but that might be a bit to broken.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Its too specific, not because it is just focused on Aegislash. It is too specific because it is focused on just one set on Aegislash, when that one set is no more or less threatening to our core than any other set it can run. If for some reason its other sets failed to beat our core that would be one thing, but they don't. Simply forcing it to run different moves to beat us is not a victory for our core at all.

The argument is that we can afford to invest more in physical bulk if we have an ability that takes care of Aegislash's special side. This is INCREDIBLY useful to this mon, because, well, look at the rest of the threats we should respond to:

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

Our typing helps us resist all the non-Ghost specially-based mons we wanna cover (Clefable, Zard, Heatran without Earth Power, Volcarona) naturally. Bulletproof stops the only common special attacks we wanna counter that give us trouble: Gengar and Aegislash's Shadow Balls.

Finally, as I mentioned before, a focus on physical defense is especially nice for a Fire/Water type as it will very, very likely have a way to induce somewhat reliable burn, which, when combined with the bulk we can afford by going lighter on Special Defense, means we actually have a chance of neutering incoming Earthquakes!

Obviously this is looking at it defensively (which is how I prefer to look at it); if you want offense, there are other fun abilities to think about. But Bulletproof most definitely is the best defensive option.

 

[Impy]

We already have Latias in the core for that. I honestly don't understand the point of giving CAP18 Levitate, Latias already has it and if CAP18 fears hazards we can just give it Regenerator, which also nullifies Stealth Rock. But Serene Grace definitely seems interesting, if CAP18 gets Lava Plume that 60% burn chance is very good, its even better if we give it Sacred Fire (Entei gets it now, so its no longer a legendary exclusive), where its a 100% chance of burn, but that might be a bit to broken.

Levitate stops Garchomp's Earthquake. Latias's dragon typing and passable physical bulk don't stop its Outrage. Lucario is 2hko'd and CAP is pending.

I know this belongs back in the threat discussion, but this is something that needs to be considered. Garchomp didn't just magically go away.

 

[Galladium]

Obviously this is looking at it defensively (which is how I prefer to look at it); if you want offense, there are other fun abilities to think about. But Bulletproof most definitely is the best defensive option.

Bulletproof covers two moves, and you're suggesting that it's better than Levitate defensively? I don't understand.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Bulletproof covers two moves, and you're suggesting that it's better than Levitate defensively? I don't understand.

Yeah, I dont understand the hype over Bulletproof. It's only purpose is to counter Aegislash and Gengar, and both of their movepools can find a way around bulletproof

Levitate stops Garchomp's Earthquake. Latias's dragon typing and passable physical bulk don't stop its Outrage. Lucario is 2hko'd and CAP is pending.

I know this belongs back in the threat discussion, but this is something that needs to be considered. Garchomp didn't just magically go away.

Unless Garchomp is scarfed, (In that case it will force them to switch if you bring Latias in on an Earthquake) a Timid Latias can outspeed a Jolly Garchomp and OHKO it with Draco Meteor

 

[Impy]

Yeah, I dont understand the hype over Bulletproof. It's only purpose is to counter Aegislash and Gengar, and both of their movepools can find a way around bulletproof


Unless Garchomp is scarfed, (In that case it will force them to switch if you bring Latias in on an Earthquake) a Timid Latias can outspeed a Jolly Garchomp and OHKO it with Draco Meteor

I know that, but it was explicitly stated that the Latias in our core is the defensive defogger. And that will die. Good point about forcing it out, but it's still a massive threat. A core is useless if one pokemon tramples it, especially one enjoying a fair bit of usage.

 

[Galladium]

I think we're getting a bit off-topic here, but surely if Garchomp's Outrage 2HKO's Latias, but Latias' Draco Meteor 1HKO's Garchomp, then couldn't you just take the first hit from Outrage and then KO back with Draco Meteor? Job done, and neither CAP nor Lucario has to get involved.