CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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I think we're getting a bit off-topic here, but if Garchomp's Outrage 2HKO's Latias, but Latias' Draco Meteor 1HKO's Garchomp, then couldn't you just take the first hit from Outrage and then KO back with Draco Meteor? Job done, and neither CAP nor Lucario has to get involved.
You may have misunderstood:

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 428-506 (141.7 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latias can still come in and KO with Draco Meteor provided its a free switch and Chomp isn't scarfed. And yes, Latias will outspeed because the designated member of our core is Offensive Defog Latias, which usually is:

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpAtk/252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Defog
-Draco Meteor
-Roost/Healing Wish
-Psyshock/Thunderbolt

THAT is the Latias set we're pairing our core member with, at least to my understanding because DLC specified Offensive when he laid down what core we were to use during Concept Assessment. Now that the air has cleared here, discussion about abilities can move along.
 
Another one-paragraph post showing my undying support for Regenerator. Regenerator, while definitely a good ability, is not a generic make-CAP-good ability. Regenerator gives CAP18 semi-reliable recovery and a cushion against priority attacks. This is almost completely neutered by Stealth rock. 8% Health regeneration isn't worth two turns of switching, no matter what. 33% can be worth it. CAP18 needs Latias' defog support if it has Regenerator. The typing is giving us a way to beat threats, our ability needs to keep us alive to do it.
 

Galladium

Banned deucer.
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 428-506 (141.7 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latias can still come in and KO with Draco Meteor provided its a free switch and Chomp isn't scarfed. And yes, Latias will outspeed because the designated member of our core is Offensive Defog Latias, which usually is...
Oh, ok. Some people were saying that we were using a Defensive Defog Latias, which would be 2HKO'd by Outrage, I think. It wouldn't be hard to get in a free switch in, though.
 
This post is my mainly focusing and addressing my personal opinions of how 18's ability will relate to the established Threat List. (Including but not limited to Aegislash)
Essentially, any murmurs of discussion involving Levitate are in my opinion, void. There is no reason why we would need it, as the pokemon that 18 is set to threaten are mostly not earthquake users, and those who are are taken care of by latias, who has levitate herself (Albeit I respect that latias' defense is a tad lacking to deal with Earthquake user's alternative attacks.) Sheer force cannot do anything that higher stat's can't do better, and although Bulletproof eliminates one aegislash set, it still leaves us just as vulnerable to the plethora of other sets, and does not help at all against any of the other pokemon we are supposed to threaten, save Gengar. Regenerator seems useful to eliminate stealth rock/hazard damage (despite us having latias for defogging, it still has lots of merit for permitting multiple switch ins.) Serene grace definitely allows us to threaten Aegislash, Mawile, Scizor, and ground types with burns, but it only necessarily obliterates exclusively physical Aegi, and Scizor doesn't seem like the kind of pokemon to switch in on / stay in against a fire stab anyway. Although it does have merit in the fact that it allows us to threaten the aforementioned pokemon to a greater extent in my opinion. Therefore I would not personally rule it out. Contrary, and Defiant are both seemingly solid, as 18 is designated to partially threaten Landorus-T, and the obvious King's Shield provides an ideal setup tool for contrary and eliminates the threat of King's Shield with Defiant. Should 18 get Overheat, Contrary would be outrageous. My only issue with it is that it doesn't help against an Aegislash which has already set up, and doesn't majority help against the other mons 18 is set to threaten. Competitve seems completely useless against Aegisash, considering it's going by the assumption that 18 will be carrying one of the obscure contact making special moves, and that the opponent's aegislash would be dumb enough to King's Shield against said moves (most of which it is resistant to anyway...) The only potential for Contrary would be Knock Off, which would prove niche at best. Poison Heal seems ridiculous to me and does not directly help threaten what our core is supposed to threaten, plus will result in 'stealing' switches from Lucario. Unaware actually seems plausible to me personally, considering it allows us to take +2 attacks from Scizor, Mawile, and Aegislash with more ease. It also allows us to punch holes in Cosmic Power Clefable. No Guard is an interesting choice, however I believe people are jumping to too many conclusions. However, it is reasonable to assume that 18 would receive at the least Fire Blast or Hydro Pump, and therefore I think it is interesting to consider, if not a bit powerful for my taste. Flame Body is again, a potential choice to help against physical Aegislash, although it seems mediocre and chancy at best. Finally, Water Immunity Abilties seem completely ridiculous to me, as 18 is supposed to be threatened by bulky water types.
Sorry for the text wall, and I am aware that this discussion is mainly about Aegislash, however I think it's also important to factor in the rest of the threat list in its entirety. (Again these are just my personal opinions please don't hate me)
 
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Bulletproof covers two moves, and you're suggesting that it's better than Levitate defensively? I don't understand.
I can see that you're new here: it's helpful to actually read posts, and then realize what the points are. Otherwise people have to just repeat themselves about, say, the fact that Bulletproof lets us invest more heavily in defense at the expense of special defense because all special threats we fear are suddenly covered (I bolded it the first time and I bolded it this time). That's what my post was about, and your reading it would make this thread super less repetitive.

Moreover, Levitate doesn't help with Aegislash. Even if Bulletproof didn't help with Ground (which it can, indirectly, as our ground threats are physical and with Bulletproof we can invest in physical defense), our core is FAR more threatened by Aegislash than ground threats. We already have a pokemon on our team that's immune to ground. We do not already have a pokemon on our team that handles Aegislash.

So even if you were right about Bulletproof not helping against Ground (which you aren't), Bulletproof is still better overall for this core. And considering this is a CAP centered around a third member for this core...yeah.
 
I can see that you're new here: it's helpful to actually read posts, and then realize what the points are. Otherwise people have to just repeat themselves about, say, the fact that Bulletproof lets us invest more heavily in defense at the expense of special defense because all special threats we fear are suddenly covered (I bolded it the first time and I bolded it this time). That's what my post was about, and your reading it would make this thread super less repetitive.

Moreover, Levitate doesn't help with Aegislash. Even if Bulletproof didn't help with Ground (which it can, indirectly, as our ground threats are physical and with Bulletproof we can invest in physical defense), our core is FAR more threatened by Aegislash than ground threats. We already have a pokemon on our team that's immune to ground. We do not already have a pokemon on our team that handles Aegislash.

So even if you were right about Bulletproof not helping against Ground (which you aren't), Bulletproof is still better overall for this core. And considering this is a CAP centered around a third member for this core...yeah.
There's no need to be rude to him, he's got a point. Bulletproof allows us to put a full-stop to Aegislash and potentially force it to run Shadow Claw, but I feel we can make CAP bulky and powerful enough to handle it without Bulletproof. Levitate is a much better defensive option, because as good as countering Aegislash is, we can't forget about other threats, either, and Latias can't take care of every ground type out there. Even Regenerator, like others have said, is a better option, as it will allow CAP to switch out and switch back in much more comfortably, hazards or not. I just don't see Bulletproof being that useful in the long run. I know CAP isn't supposed to be perfect, but the more threats we can deal with the better.
 

Galladium

Banned deucer.
Levitate doesn't help with Aegislash. Even if Bulletproof didn't help with Ground (which it can, indirectly, as our ground threats are physical and with Bulletproof we can invest in physical defense), our core is FAR more threatened by Aegislash than ground threats. We already have a pokemon on our team that's immune to ground. We do not already have a pokemon on our team that handles Aegislash.

So even if you were right about Bulletproof not helping against Ground (which you aren't), Bulletproof is still better overall for this core. And considering this is a CAP centered around a third member for this core...yeah.
I get what you're saying, but if you read the post I made before, I did say that Levitate has its flaws too. I personally think the best choice for this Pokemon is Regenerator, not Levitate.
 
tl;dr
In an effort to solve the Bulletproof controversy, I did a little research, and as it turns out, while Bulletproof CAP18 solves our problems with Shadow Ball, it creates a new problem that circumvents it entirely in Thunderbolt Gengar.
/tl;dr

Currently, we're speculating that Bulletproof will cause Aegislash to start running Shadow Claw to avoid being walled by CAP18. If this core becomes metagame-warping enough that it has that effect on Aegislash, I don't feel like it's too much of a stretch to say that Thunderbolt Gengar will gain popularity as a check to our core. Thunderbolt is Gengar's most damaging option against a Water/Fire-type, 1.5 times as effective as its Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb. Gengar's Shadow Ball alone threatens Latias and Lucario, and a set of Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb/Substitute only misses resisted coverage on Krookodile and Diggersby, which lack either the usage or the movepool to threaten Gengar. This proves that Thunderbolt Gengar is completely viable and a serious concern for CAP18's core.

Since we want CAP18 to be able to handle Gengar, we'd need significant special bulk to take Thunderbolts, but would that enable it to survive Aegislash's attacks without the aid of an ability? To answer that question, I ran a few calcs through PS, using Milotic as a stand-in since she's fairly specially bulky and her typing handles Electric and Ghost moves the same way CAP18's does.

252+ SpA Aegislash Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers (doesn't 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 3HKO after Leftovers (14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

If we want CAP18 to be able to convincingly handle Gengar, it will need special bulk on the scale of Milotic's. That's certainly high enough that Aegislash's Shadow Ball won't threaten it anyway. Unless we desperately want to discourage Mega Venusaur from slinging Sludge Bombs at CAP18 (which, given the special bulk to take repeated Thunderbolts, it REALLY won't care about, barring poison), a CAP18 that can answer Gengar will find Bulletproof completely unnecessary.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
If we're considering status protection then I must echo my previous post where I mentioned that Natural Cure or Shed Skin should be considered over Poison Heal.
While Regenerator is mainly aimed to offset SR's damage, Poison Heal is a ludicrously good ability and would push this CAP into the "broken" zone.

Natural Cure and Shed Skin offer protection against status, while Poison Heal is an outright immunity plus significant passive recovery and the ability to absorb Knock Off after Toxic Orb kicks in (which is a big deal in this metagame), all of which would make this pokemon used by a plethora of teams, defeating its purpose.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I want to make my post quick, but after some thought, I think the main abilities for use are Serene Grace, defensive ability, No Guard, offensive, or Regenerator, Pivot. All are viable abilities. I just want to say that Levitate IS NOT a good defensive ability in this core. Predicted EarthQuake/Powers from Landorus-T/I and Garchomp can easily switch into Latias. Latias can then wreck their face with Ice Beam or Draco Meteor. As well as Gliscor and Salamence, as they fall in the same category although not getting STAB on Earthquake for Salamence reduces its power, and Gliscor doesn't invest much attack to begin with. I believe it gets in OHKO on all of them.
 
I would like to nominate Magic Guard for discusssion.
Magic Guard is similar to Regenerator in that it allows CAP 18 to switch without worrying about damage from SR or other hazards, thus increasing general bulk and allowing us to take hits better.
However, Magic Guard also grants CAP 18 an immunity to other forms of passive damage(such as sand) and also allows CAP 18 to act as a status absorber for the core, which enables both Lucario and Latias to function better.
Magic Guard also negates LO recoil, thus allowing CAP 18 to become a good bulky pivot in the core. While Magic Guard does not tackle the issues that Aegislash and others pose to this core directly, Magic Guard helps deal with these threats by protecting CAP 18 from passive damage and hazards, which is crucial when going against HO teams(which Aegislash is a common member of)
 
I see that we have generated a list of offensive and defensive abilities for CAP18, so I'd be expressing some thoughts on them. Note that these are just my personal opinions so feel free to agree to disagree.

Defensive: For defensive abilities it is obviously best if it can switch into something that threatens other members of our core directly.
Bulletproof: While Bulletproof undoubtedly puts a stop to Aegislash, having Latias alone to handle all of Ground types is putting a little too much pressure on Latias, and makes it sort of like putting all eggs into 1 basket, which is quite risky considering Latias is easily Pursuit trapped, which may lead the core to crumble. Besides, Knock Off Landorus-T and Thunderbolt Gengar are also very threatening to our core. Imo Bulletproof is compromising too much just for Aegislash.

Levitate: While it does handle Grounds better, we will need something the bulk of Milotic to safely handle Gengar and Aegislash, which isn't too bad, so I shall not comment much here.

Non-directly defensive abilities like Regenerator/Unaware etc.: While other defensive abilities like Regenerator/Magic Guard potentially makes it easier for CAP18 to switch in and out, it still does not really solve the problems to the core. If say Aegislash/Gengar, to a less extent Grounds, comes in on Lucario/Latias, you will still be hardpressed to get a safe switch. There are other cool defensive abilities like Regenerator, Magic Guard etc, but it in no way makes CAP18 a "Major Third" for our core. In that sense, even if it turns out really good, we still have failed to achieve our target.
Offensive: Since we are using offensive abilities means we most probably have the bulk to switch in, so effective ones are those that allows switch ins.

Direct damage boosting abilities like Sheer Force/Adaptability:
There is no point because we can just give CAP18 higher offensive stats.

Defiant: While Defiant potentially cancels the effect of King's Shield, we do not have any strong viable physical move at this point to KO Aegislash because we end up with a nett Atk change of 0, which means we need something with the Atk of Tyranitar if we want to reliably KO it.

Contrary: An more offensive approach to Defiant, and lets us switch into Shadow Ball easier. That would mean having to drop out on Overheat because it's way too abusive. But well, it works.

No Guard: 100% accurate Inferno and Hydro Pump will be absolutely fabulous on CAP18, notably since it make CAP18 the only effective user of Inferno. Not sure if it will make CAP18 too good outside the core, but it works.

Competitive: Imo still one of the better offensive abilities if taking down Aegislash is concerned, since Foul Play and Competitive puts a lot of pressure whether or not King's Shield is used. Specially based priority is few as well, so it limits its primary function to the core itself.

Serene Grace: Tbh I'd think No Guard would be more effective than Serene Grace, just saying.
After all that, I'm just gonna throw in 1 more offensive and 1 more defensive ability to consider.

Multiscale: With no 4x weakness, Multiscale seems effective in allowing CAP18 to switch into about any major threat. Defog support is obviously good to have, and with Latias being one of the better users of the move, it would bring those 2 Pokemons together, and Lucario fits the bill since CAP18 solves its main problems as well, so it is one of the ability which works specifically for "Major Third".

Infiltrator: I just happened to notice that Aegislash/Trevenant/Gliscor/Gengar and other stuff that threatens our core REALLY likes the use of Substitute, which makes it hard to play around for both Lucario and Latias. If CAP18 has Infiltrator, it is capable of OHKO-ing each of these Pokemons through the Sub which is very useful to have.
 
The idea behind Bulletproof isn't that this mon would force Aegislash to run Shadow Claw. The idea is that, if CAP's immunity to Shadow Ball shores up its special threats (barring the far less common Earth Power Tran and, as has been mentioned, Thunderbolt Gengar) then it can go hogwild on physical defense and that it wouldn't matter if Aegislash had Shadow Claw.

I'm truly baffled by how little people seem to think of Aegislash here, because it doesn't just murder the Lucario/Latias core, but unlike any of the other threats to it, it's everywhere. There seems to be a gut negative reaction throughout this CAP by certain folks whenever a suggestion is made to handle Aegislash specifically. And I'd get that, if Bulletproof only meant no more Aegislash. But as has been pointed out more times than I'd like to count, it means that we can be physically bulky in exchange. Earth Power Heatran and Thunderbolt Gengar suck for it, sure, but without some serious investment in the physical department (or Levitate, which does nothing for our most prevelant threat) Earthquake sucks a lot harder and a lot more commonly.

The most important thing that folks seem to be forgetting is that we're not trying to make a perfect pokemon here. If we make this CAP with high physical defenses and low special defense bolstered by Bulletproof, it's still weak to Rotom-W, bulky waters in general, and special-based Dragons, which a specially-bulky Regenerator mon doesn't mind nearly as much. And, if we look at the OP's list of things this mon should be threatened by...

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.

Regenerator with special bulk is fantastic for a pokemon. Just not this CAP. We want a mon that not only helps Lucario and Latias, but is helped by Lucario and Latias, and what better way than to make it physically bulky and let Latias handle pressure from the special side? While also neutering this core's biggest threat?
 
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I've got a question with regards to regenerator. I was under the impression that one of the selling points of the fire typing was that it would rely on defensive Latias's defogging capabilities to get rid of it's SR weakness, which would aid in making it less viable outside of the core. Wouldn't regenerator nullify that, and make it a lot more usable in general? I'm just trying to figure out what's changed in the goals here.
 
The idea behind Bulletproof isn't that this mon would force Aegislash to run Shadow Claw. The idea is that, if CAP's immunity to Shadow Ball shores up its special threats (barring the far less common Earth Power Tran and, as has been mentioned, Thunderbolt Gengar) then it can go hogwild on physical defense and that it wouldn't matter if Aegislash had Shadow Claw.

I'm truly baffled by how little people seem to think of Aegislash here, because it doesn't just murder the Lucario/Latias core, but unlike any of the other threats to it, it's everywhere. There seems to be a gut negative reaction throughout this CAP by certain folks whenever a suggestion is made to handle Aegislash specifically. And I'd get that, if Bulletproof only meant no more Aegislash. But as has been pointed out more times than I'd like to count, it means that we can be physically bulky in exchange. Earth Power Heatran and Thunderbolt Gengar suck for it, sure, but without some serious investment in the physical department (or Levitate, which does nothing for our most prevelant threat) Earthquake sucks a lot harder and a lot more commonly.

The most important thing that folks seem to be forgetting is that we're not trying to make a perfect pokemon here. If we make this CAP with high physical defenses and low special defense bolstered by Bulletproof, it's still weak to Rotom-W, bulky waters in general, and special-based Dragons, which a specially-bulky Regenerator mon doesn't mind nearly as much. And, if we look at the OP's list of things this mon should be threatened by...

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.

Regenerator with special bulk is fantastic for a pokemon. Just not this CAP. We want a mon that not only helps Lucario and Latias, but is helped by Lucario and Latias, and what better way than to make it physically bulky and let Latias handle pressure from the special side? While also neutering this core's biggest threat?
My point, though, is we don't NEED Bulletproof to deal with Aegislash. Like Mewtwo15026 said, if we can stop Gengar we don't need to worry about Shadow Ball, because with Bulletproof it'll just run Thunderbolt, and that's VERY viable. If we can make Shadowball a 3hko, Aegislash is as good as dead against CAP. Chances are this pokemon is going to end up as a wall, and that means it will probably have pretty good defense anyways.

You make the best argument for Bulletproof though. I wouldn't complain if it was picked.
 

alexwolf

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Intimidate and Bulletproof are the best abilities so far. Bulletproof helps us check Aegislash and with good physical bulk we can deal even with physical sets, as we can immediately threaten it with Fire STABs or WoW. It is also great vs Gengar.

Intimidate helps us switch into a lot of Pokemon we want to check, such as Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Charizard X, all significant threats to our core. Also, Intimidate hels a bit even against STAB EQ users, such as Garchomp, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Sand Rush Excadrill, as we can pivot between Latias and the CAP to gradually weaken them to a point where Latias is able to take them on by herself. Of course that is not the best solution, but it's still better than nothing, and the fact that our core already has a Ground immunity definitely helps there. In general, Intimidate adds a lot of flexiblity to the core, allowing the CAP to give easier switch-in chances to both Latias and Lucario, and allowing the core, especially Latias and CAP, to take advantage of its good defensive synergy with smart double switching.

Other than those two, here are some other interesting ones:

Poison Heal

While with this ability we would have to forfeit offensive items such as Life Orb, the extra recovery makes it much easier for the CAP to handle the threats it wants to, especially Aegislash, which is very durable. Poison Heal also fits very well on a bulky sweeper, assuming we want to go this route, and makes sure that the CAP is not easy to wear down, despite the SR weakness. With Poison Heal we also shield the CAP from Toxic Aegislash and Toxic Heatran, both common sets that would otherwise cripple the CAP and trouble the rest of the core.

Prankster

Prankster WoW cripples a lot of possibly faster Pokemon that we want to, such as Choice Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill, +1 Mega Ttar, +1 Mega Gyarados, +6 Azumarill using Aqua Jet, +2 Aegislash using Shadow Sneak, and Garchomp. And while it doesn't help in the switch in department, it helps a lot in the 1 on 1 department, which is still good. Prankster Encore is another wonderful tool that could be used to deal with set up sweepers and create set up opportunities for both the CAP and its teammates. Of course there are a million more ways to take advantage of this ability, and most of them don't seem too fitting for an offensive Pokemon, but as long as we are carefull in the movepool stage, the CAP will stick to a mainly offensive role, or an offensive support role. It's not like we have to give to the CAP reliable recovery and other moves that are needed to take a more defensive role.
 
My point, though, is we don't NEED Bulletproof to deal with Aegislash. Like Mewtwo15026 said, if we can stop Gengar we don't need to worry about Shadow Ball, because with Bulletproof it'll just run Thunderbolt, and that's VERY viable. If we can make Shadowball a 3hko, Aegislash is as good as dead against CAP. Chances are this pokemon is going to end up as a wall, and that means it will probably have pretty good defense anyways.
The question, for me, is whether we wanna counter Thunderbolt Gengar and Earth Power Heatran, whether we wanna be able to reasonably come on in on our physical threatlist (which are much more common than either of those mons; beyond Ground, we're not even mentioning LukeLati threats like Conkeldurr), or making an OP pokemon that can deal with both and doesn't need to have the rest of the core.

Also, being weak to Thunderbolt Gengar sucks, but if we can handle that, we can handle Rotom-W. And we shouldn't be handling Rotom-W with this mon.

Also also, if opponents are forced to use things like Thunderbolt Gengar just for CAP/Luke/Lati, this is a pretty good core. If this core changes usage stats, and is weak to a mon that can easily be checked by another team member (remember, we're constructing half a team, not the whole thing), then we've done good work.
 
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Nyktos

Custom Loser Title
Thunderbolt Gengar is a red herring. The idea does, I suppose, make some degree of sense: if we pick Bulletproof, we need to take Thunderbolts, and if we can take Thunderbolts we don't need Bulletproof. I get it. The problem is that we can't take Thunderbolts, whether we "need" to or not. We are not building a wall here; tanking repeated super effective hits from a base 130 offensive stat is simply not happening. Nor does it even matter all that much: Gengar is extremely uncommon compared to Aegislash. It's reasonable to imagine that Thunderbolt will become standard on Gengar in a metagame where an Electric-weak Bulletproof poke is popular, but nobody has suggested any reason why Gengar itself should rise so much in popularity that we need to warp reality in order to beat it. Obviously Gengar is on our list of targets and we don't want to lose to it, but we should be quite comfortable with Thunderbolt variants being something we beat 1v1 but can't reliably switch in on. (It's also worth noting that Latias resists Thunderbolt. The situation where Gengar is in against Latias and we're considering switching in the CAP is a 50-50 if we have Bulletproof, whereas if we don't it can use Shadow Ball safely. Bulletproof still improves the core's overall matchup against Gengar if it carries Thunderbolt.)

I'd also like to talk for a moment about Regenerator. This is a really solid pivot ability in general and I'm willing to believe there is a solid argument in favour of it. That said, that argument almost certainly is not Stealth Rock. Yes, the CAP is Rock weak. However, we've already decided that it should be best used alongside a Defogger, so while hazards are certainly not something we should ignore, devoting an entire ability slot to them is a poor idea. Regenerator is clearly more than just an anti-hazard ability, but you'd never get that idea from the posts in favour.
 
Bulletproof CAP18 does not allow for defensive builds that can handle the threats that we want it to. Intimidate CAP18 does.

Making a CAP with high physical bulk and patching its lesser special bulk with Bulletproof solves the Aegislash problem and will allow CAP18 to be threatened by Rotom-W, Thunderbolt Gengar, bulky Dragons, and...oh, wait, aren't we supposed to answer Gengar? Uh-oh. (Also, dodging the 2HKO from Lando-T's Earthquake requires physical bulk better than Regirock's.) I don't care how popular Gengar is/isn't in response to CAP18; we still want to check it, don't we?

Making a CAP with high special bulk and bolstering its physical bulk with Intimidate initially sounds much more appealing (to me, anyway). The high special bulk allows CAP18 to suck up anything on par with or weaker than Gengar's Thunderbolts (this includes Quiet Aegislash's Shadow Ball, as I've noted before) and enable it to respond, and movepool limitations can prevent it from threatening Rotom-W and the bulky Dragons. So what do we do about physical attacks, then? The best CAP18 will have to do is survive Landorus-T's Earthquakes somehow - a tall order, considering the following calculation with a well-known, fairly bulky, and grounded Fire-type:

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reshiram: 186-222 (46 - 54.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given that Reshiram has 100/100 defenses, this calculation's daunting, but we're not too far from avoiding a 2HKO. I've mentioned before that Milotic-like defenses allow us to solve the Gengar problem, and it is possible to run enough physical bulk to tank Earthquakes (we'd need something a little bit bulkier than Slowbro). A defensive set with Intimidate is completely possible.

(As always, let me know if I'm overlooking something. There might be something that hits us harder than Lando-T Earthquake.)
 
Well, time to throw in my two cents.

Bulletproof- Open your eyes, people. So much discussion has been just on countering Aegislash that this ability, one of the abilities gaining the most support here, counters only Aegislash (and possibly Gengar). On top of that, it's only countering ONE move that these Pokemon use, and Aegislash isn't even guaranteed to always have Shadow Ball. Out.

Drought- The sun may help the Fire part of this Pokemon, yet harms its water side. Also, the boost to other Fire types, like Mega-Houndoom, would ruin the remainder of this core. (The first part also goes in reverse for Drizzle and the second could also apply to Hurricane or Thunder users, if anybody uses those moves, to an extent). Out (and Out).

Contrary- I liked this idea at first, but then I realized that Overheat (this would obviously end up on the Pokemon if it got Contrary) boosting this Pokemon's stats (which are no doubt going to be good, seeing as this is a CAP) with its great dual-STAB could make this Pokemon overpowered. Maybe there's a reason it's only on Serperior, Shuckle, and Malamar... Out.

Filter- I actually like this idea, but can't think of enough practical uses for it other than making switch-ins to this Pokemon slightly easier occasionally. Also, I don' see a lot of conversation on it. Can anyone present some Pros and Cons to this one? Limbo.

Levitate- This would help the Pokemon defensively, no doubt, but I'm apprehensive to the idea because there could be potential for this Pokemon and Latias to take on a very similar job, which would mean we didn't accomplish very much here. Out.

Regenerator- I like how this ability makes our Pokemon better at Pivoting, and I think it's a good ability. Still In.

Volt Absorb- I don't think I've seen a lot of conversation on this one, although it could have its uses on a water type. Limbo.

Intimidate- I agree that this would be helpful on offensive threats, but the foe could always switch out after taking an Intimidate or simply take this Pokemon out with a specially offensive Pokemon. Can anyone present some more arguments for this? Limbo.

Ok, from here on out I'm just listing abilities which I strongly believe shouldn't exist on this CAP or are still good to use.

Mold Breaker- This helps the Pokemon to get through pesky abilities like Flash Fire, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain, preventing annoying switch outs to such Pokemon. Still In.

Adaptability- Too overpowered (why else would Mega-Lucario get banned?). Out.

Sheer Force- This puts too much emphasis on this Pokemon being an all-out attacker rather than supporting the core. Also, a lot of Water and Fire moves are used simply because of their effects. Out.

Multiscale- I can definitely see this working (assuming Stealth Rocks aren't up). Still In.

Unaware- I can see this working against Pokemon like Swords Dance Aegislash or Belly Drum Azumarill which can dismantle our core without much resistance. Still In.

Serene Grace- This really helps the Pokemon to support the core through Burns and other probable side-effects (to be determined when we choose the movepool), as well as crippling common threats like Physical Aegislash and Azumarill. Still In.

Clear Body/White Smoke- I like this idea, as it allows the Pokemon not to be hindered by Sticky Web (if Latias can't remove it for whatever reason) as well as King's Shield (if this becomes physically offensive). Still In.

Well, that's it. Sorry for the length of this post.
 
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The Intimidate discussion is interesting, except that Landorus is already beaten by Latias 1-1. Unless you predict a U-Turn, which CAP and Lucario both resist. Moreover, Intimidate is great when you switch in, but that's it. Anything can switch into an Intimidate user and threaten it out if it's physical and you're relying on the Attack loss.
 
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Rotosect

Banned deucer.
I'd also like to talk for a moment about Regenerator. This is a really solid pivot ability in general and I'm willing to believe there is a solid argument in favour of it. That said, that argument almost certainly is not Stealth Rock. Yes, the CAP is Rock weak. However, we've already decided that it should be best used alongside a Defogger, so while hazards are certainly not something we should ignore, devoting an entire ability slot to them is a poor idea. Regenerator is clearly more than just an anti-hazard ability, but you'd never get that idea from the posts in favour.
Except for the fact said defogger isn't exactly one of the best in OU, as she's extremely vulnerable to Deoxys, Tyranitar and Bisharp, i.e. pokemon that dominate the entry hazards game in this tier. That, and the fact Latias faces huge competition from Latios for that role. Besides it isn't mandatory for Latias to be played as a defogger, since she can run other sets like Healing Wish and Calm Mind. We're all aware that Regenerator is more than a cushion against SR, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not the main reason it's being considered here.
 
I see our critter's abilities ending up as Regenerator and Bulletproof (Something I'm becoming more receptive of) at this point. Regenerator helps our pivoting game, something our core needs, but Bulletproof does put a full stop to one of the most common pokemon in OU. Not just the core, but the entire team enjoys this. I still think Levitate's ground immunity is incredibly helpful, though.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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I support Bulletproof, but it can only work if we remember to give our CAP great physical bulk and poor special bulk. Likewise, Intimidate is a good choice, but, on the contrary, we need to give our CAP a lot of special bulk. Otherwise, the CAP will fall apart by either not helping our core or being too good. For that reason, although they are both good abilities, they cannot be combined, since both conflict with each other when it comes to choosing the CAP's base stats. I still think Bulletproof + Physical Defense is best for it, since the majority of the Pokemon we want to threaten are Fairies (which we already deal well with), Aegislash and Gengar (which Bulletproof deals with unless Gengar has Thunderbolt, but we should make our CAP weak to Thunderbolt as has already been stated), and Physical threats.

So, basically, I support Bulletproof and I support Intimidate, but I do not support Bulletproof + Intimidate.

Ground types are still a big problem though, which is why Levitate is a good option. It doesn't help against Aegislash, but if we make it into our secondary ability and make Bulletproof into our first, it will potentially scare both Aegislash and Grounds, which I don't think is possible with only one ability.
Serene Grace could also a decent option for Grounds, this one more offensive than defensive. Unfortunately, Serene Grace Scald might just be too good, and not only against Ground-types. And besides, I don't think most Ground-types will want to switch in on the CAP in the first place.
The strongest argument for Serene Grace, in my opinion, is Azumarill, who will not want to swich into Scald or Lava Plume, earing the 60% Burn chance. But then again, Will-O-Wisp already threatens Azumarill, so Serene Grace ultimately doesn't seem that necessary.

I also don't think Regenerator is a good idea at all, since Latias is supposed to be an offensive Defogger, and Luacrio also deals with Stealth Rock very well. The fact that our Cap is weak to Rocks is a feature, not a flaw. Regenerator just doesn't give Latias a strong reason to run Defog like we want it to.

For that same reason, I really like the idea of Multiscale, since it forces hazards to be down to work, but if they are, out CAP can deal with Aegislash and Bulky Grounds in one fell swoop. However, Multiscale may be a little overpowered, and if we do give it to our CAP, we need to refrain from giving it any reliable recovery.

In any case, I think we can all agree that a defensive ability is best for taking on Aegislash and Landorus-T and the like. I'm not really convinced on any offensive ability so far.
Except for the fact said defogger isn't exactly one of the best in OU, as she's extremely vulnerable to Deoxys, Tyranitar and Bisharp, i.e. pokemon that dominate the entry hazards game in this tier. That, and the fact Latias faces huge competition from Latios for that role. Besides it isn't mandatory for Latias to be played as a defogger, since she can run other sets like Healing Wish and Calm Mind. We're all aware that Regenerator is more than a cushion against SR, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not the main reason it's being considered here.
No, Latias is one of the best defoggers in OU. Of the two Pokemon you listed, Bisharp is mostly countered by Lucario, Tyranitar hates Lucario unless it's scarfed, and Latias is not "extremely vulnerable" to either Deoxys formes, only really fearing Knock Off. Sure, Latias doesn't necessarily deal well with Deoxys-S, but it's much less a threat to our core than to, say, a Terrakion / Latios core.

And it actually is mandatory for Latias to be a defogger, since this CAP was explicitly supposed to support the offensive defogger version of Latias.
 
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Birkal

We have the technology.
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MODPOST

Just a friendly reminder that as of Generation VI, Ghost-type Pokemon cannot be trapped. Please stop suggesting Shadow Tag / Arena Trap unless you have another angle with which to present those abilities (e.g. trapping Fairy-types, Ground-types, whatever). If I see one more post about either of these abilities in relation to Aegislash, may the Lord have mercy on your soul as I come at you with all I've got. Stop suggesting it and stop responding to it, please.

And while I'm at it, there have been very few posters who have addressed the questions posed by PttP at the start of this thread. While it's fun to throw every ability up against a wall to see what sticks, it's not conducive to actual conversation. It might be worth your time to consider how our CAP should handle Aegislash (offensively vs defensively) before posting. Remember, just because this is an Ability Discussion thread does not mean that every post needs to be about an ability.
 
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