CAP 18 CAP18 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[Ununhexium]

No Guard would also work in relation with Hydro Pump, giving CAP two powerful STAB moves to take advantage of. A 100% success rate un-tauntable attack with STAB and STAB Hydro Pump would be an excellent combo. Regenerator is a good option too.

Just remember everyone, the CAP can have more than one ability.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Nobody is saying Regenerator is a bad abillity. It's a good abillity, the problem is that it is to good. CAP18 needed to be Stealth Rock weak and spikes vunerable to actually let Latias be useful in the core. If we give it Regenerator, it wont give a crap about SR or Spikes, and since Lucario only takes 3% SR damage, Latias becomes next to useless in the core, completely destroying our concept. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be good outside of the core (Infact I want it to), I'm saying it should be better in the core then when its not in it

 

[turd bunny]

no guard inferno is OP. im sorry but it is. especially with STAB and hydro pump. Regenerator does not make CAP 18 special and does not help against excadrill or gengar or fairies and only lets you take priority from aegis. also you can read the pizza man's post above mine about why it is not good in this case. i dont think its the best we can do. Multiscale on the other hand takes full advantage of hazard removal and allows CAP 18 to switch into shadow ball or earthquake or whatever. so if you want to beat down that stupid aegislash then switch from latias into CAP 18, take the shadow ball or even an attack from physical aegis easily, outspeed or take a 40 base power shadow sneak and hit back with whatever fire move. now im just scared of clefable. it can really rek this core unless CAP 18 can check it.

 

[MudcrabDL]

You know, that's an interesting point; 'should be better in the core than when it's not in it'. But I feel like Regenerator fits that bill down to a T. With Latias' support, it goes from breaking even with Stealth Rocks, to being able to take a Shadow Ball, hit back, and switch out, healing off most of the damage. I'd say that's 'better in the core'.

On No Guard, I'm concerned that we're going from a Sacred Fire comparable Serene Grace burn chance, to a move that's just as powerful as Sacred Fire, but burns all the time. I'd say that's just as, if not, more OP than a strong Contrary Overheat. I mean, look at Machamp and Golurk; while they both have Dynamicpunch, that's used primarially for shuffling the opposing team; confusion isn't persistent, which just makes it a sweet BP move with a fun secondary effect. Something that literally WILL ALWAYS BURN, seems cheap, and entirely destroys the utility of moves such as Will-o-Wisp, entirely kicks Entei's niche in the ass, AND has no synergy with Latias and Lucario that wouldn't be better spent somewhere else. Serene Grace has upsides and downsides, the upside being a de-facto Sacred Fire off two STABs, the downside being their lacklustre individual BPs.

Rattled is an interesting choice. It has great synergy with Latias, and I'd say probably plays to the concept of working better within the core than without it; as Latias is one of the only Psychics in the metagame, and the one people rely on super-effectively hitting to take down, you'd be able to grab those Rattled boosts at several times throughout the game. My issue is, it doesn't help directly with Aegislash, but more capitalizes off him, but at the same time, if CAP can threaten it into switching out immediately, you now have a fast will-o-wisp/scald/lava plume to weaken physical attackers before they can do anything. My issue with it is situationality. Sure, you get the ability to switch into Knock Offs and come out the better for it, but prediction is absolutely key, and the utility gained from it could be accomplished with Prankster, without the guesswork.

I just remembered something I was thinking of in the threat discussion page. As previously mentioned, Knock Off is absolutely ubiquitous in the metagame, and Latias hates that possibly even more than Pursuit. Lucario doesn't exactly enjoy it either; sure he gets an attack boost if Justified, but he loses his life orb, and loses that boost if he's forced to switch out. I propose Unburden as an ability for this CAP, for several reasons:

1. To counter the ubiquity of Knock Off and support Latias.
2. To provide versatility of item-based strategy, allowing the direct countering of specific threats.
3. To give CAP a one-time boost that lets it seriously put a dent in the opposition, which Lucario can clean up with Extremespeed.

Now, point 1 is self-explanatory, but for point 2, I'm going to rattle off a couple examples; please don't misconstrue this as poll jumping, I'm more just brainstorming the utility that can be provided by this set if we actually focused on building a moveset that's advantageous to this playstyle. All moves are absolutely subject to the later stages in the CAP. And some of these sets plain suck, but they do illustrate the enormous versatility of this.

- Simple Sitrus Berry set; can take a Shadow Ball more, proceed to 2HKO Aegislash, and be able to comfortably outspeed any possible switchin, bar priority.
- White Herb Overheat set; can threaten Aegislash with a 140BP STAB Super Effective move, and gets a speed boost AND no Sp.Att reduction, if he switches out or not, preserves offensive momentum.
- Maranga Berry set, once again focusing on taking more Shadow Balls. (i wish this berry was good)
- ChestoRest boosting set (Calm Mind or Bulk Up could work fine; Coil?)
- Fling - status spread, or high powered Dark type utility move. (Hit opposing latias?)
- SubBerry sets, to double speed and 1.5 times whichever attacking stat.
- Red Card set; can take a hit from Aegislash and switch it out for something else that you now outspeed.
- Super-effective reducing berries can allow for one-time counters of Excadrill and Lando-T, managing to OHKO in return with a fire/water move.
- Normal Gem Fake Out set.

While it doesn't directly help with countering Aegislash, there are a multitude of strategies that can be used with this ability, giving this CAP the advantage of unpredictability that Contrary or Bulletproof couldn't hope to achieve. In a metagame which is based around testing this pokemon and its teammates, the different sets CAP runs are going to be the absolute make or break for a team, and this ability facilitates this, giving CAP the tools it needs to get past whatever it wants, really.

EDIT: Just another thing I thought about: an Air Balloon set with Unburden would make CAP a pretty hard counter to Lando-T and Excadrill. Food for thought.

 

[ghana.7]

I still like Regenerator, but that last post suddenly made Unburden my next favorite ability. Knock off is probably the most common dark-type move in this generation, and suddenly switching into that gives us a way to support both Latias and Lucario, Latias by taking the hit, and Lucario by taking out faster threats so Lucario doesn't need to use ExtremeSpeed. If you succesfully Unburden consistently, Lucario might have a small possibility of running a third coverage move over ExtremeSpeed, which would be great for Lucario.

 

[akelly96]

Ok I've gone down the thread and would like to weigh in on the discussion.
It seems to me that the best option would be Compound Eyes simply because it provides the most flexibility between offense and defense. I agree that a 100% accuracy guaranteed burn move is overpowered but Compound Eyes balances that while still retaining the powerful 100% Hydro Pump and Fire Blast and Will-o-Wisp. The added benefit to compound eyes is that it doesn't give your opponent a 100% hit rate on it. It adds flexibility because with reliable high power moves it doesn't have to rely on massive offensive stays to remain offensively present and can be given more bulk to work with. This allows CAP18 to have a choice between offense or defensive means of handling threats.

To address other abilities:

Regenerator: This is a decent ability and allows CAP18 to easily tank hits and heal them off effectively. I prefer Compound Eyes to this because it gives two additional benefits
1. Added offensive pressure which is very important for a core team like this
2. 100% accuracy Will-o-Wisp allowing it to check Azumarril much easier.
This is probably the most debatable ability in my opinion

Multiscale: The problem with Multiscale is its single use. Multiscale works well on sweepers such as Dragonite because it gives them a free turn to set up even in bad odds. If you switch CAP18 into Excadrill you get your scale broken and then he's gonna switch out and now you have no way to switch into Excadrill again.

Unburden: Useless entirely. Every unburden set sounds good on paper but comes up short in actual use. It is actually quite similar to Multiscale due to the one time use thing. In addition Lucario doesn't particularly mind Knock Off either as it can give him an attack boost.

Contrary/Competitive: It seems these two abilities were thought of specifically to counter Aegislash. For the most part they seem rather situational and don't do it any favors in countering threats besides Aegislash

Top 3 Abilities
Compound Eyes
Regenerator
Levitate

 

[schlondark]

I'd Like to suggest Analytic to create damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situations involving switching with aegis, it could also have interesting synergy with a move like dragon tail.

 

[MudcrabDL]

I do agree that Compoundeyes is a solid ability, but it's really only geared at countering bullshit misses. When considering Inferno, it only brings it up to a still crappy 65 percent. It makes will o wisp better, but when CAP has probable access to Scald and Lava Plume, Serene Grace would be far more reliable in helping keep up offensive pressure.

In defense of Unburden, A: if Lucario switches into a Knock Off, he trades his reliable item for a one time boost, which isn't ideal at all. And B: Unburden has been proven to be very successful in the UU metagame, where Hawlucha's Power Herb set was deemed to be far too powerful, pushing him up into the no man's land of BL, due to being hard countered by several significant OU threats, namely Aegislash and Talonflame. CAP would not share this problem, landing super effective hits on both of them.

 

[Galladium]

I do agree that Compoundeyes is a solid ability, but it's really only geared at countering bullshit misses. When considering Inferno, it only brings it up to a still crappy 65 percent. It makes will o wisp better, but when CAP has probable access to Scald and Lava Plume, Serene Grace would be far more reliable in helping keep up offensive pressure.

I would still say that Compound Eyes is better than Serene Grace because it means that we don't need to run Scald and Lava Plume, as we have a 100% accurate Will O Wisp. Instead, we can use Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, two moves which take advantage of the increased accuracy.

 

[MudcrabDL]

Yeah actually, I've been thinking about it more and I have exactly no complaints. That extra firepower would go a long way.

 

[mewtwo15026]

Serene Grace would be far more reliable in helping keep up offensive pressure.

Despite the chief argument for Compoundeyes being a status attack, it's not as though the ability's unreliable at providing offensive pressure. A >95% accurate Will-O-Wisp prevents basically any physical attacker from switching into CAP18, and no-miss Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts can punish just about any specially offensive switch-ins. Compoundeyes doesn't blend burn rate and damage like Serene Grace does, but it gives a better burn rate and more damage.

 

[EternalSnowman]

Despite the chief argument for Compoundeyes being a status attack, it's not as though the ability's unreliable at providing offensive pressure. A >95% accurate Will-O-Wisp prevents basically any physical attacker from switching into CAP18, and no-miss Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts can punish just about any specially offensive switch-ins. Compoundeyes doesn't blend burn rate and damage like Serene Grace does, but it gives a better burn rate and more damage.

This is true... However Serene Grace has other uses outside of this such as perhaps giving Stat Drops/Boosts from coverage moves, such as Shadow Ball, Focus Miss or whatever else CAP18 is given. Also having a 60% burn rate on Scald makes it a ridiculously good move, limiting any need from prediction as it would cripple a good portion of the metagame that is switching in, bar specially oriented walls/tanks that resist the move and have reliable recovery, or pokemon that just don't care due to their ability, Guts or Magic Guard. It also lets us bypass Taunt and Magic Bounce, which are still common in the current metagame in the forms of Espeon for Magic Guard, and Infernape, Mandibuzz to name a few common Taunt users. Although both are viable, I would prefer Serene Grace. Accuracy is not all that much of an issue, since with 85% accuracy on WoW, that is still higher than the Serene Grace percentage on Scald/Lava Plume.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

There's one Ability that's gaining traction that makes very little sense to me, and that's Competitive. Competitive might make CAP18 pressure Aegislash better, but it's also ridiculously easy to play around and doesn't really let us do very much better against Aegislash itself. There are two consistent stat-lowering presences in OU right now: Intimidate and King's Shield.

CAP18 isn't likely to see many Intimidates, as Landorus-Therian and Mawile aren't smart switch-ins to CAP18 and Gyarados only has Intimidate before it Mega Evolves. The only Intimidate users CAP18 might struggle with are Mega Manectric and potentially Staraptor, which aren't OU anyway. King's Shield, on the other hand, is still not enough to justify Competitive. If we're trying to boost our Special Attack with Competitive, it's fair to assume we'll be either a Special or Specially-based mixed attacker. The only Special attack that is affected by King's Shield is Grass Knot, a move that's barely relevant in OU. Although using Pursuit to boost our Special Attack against King's Shield sounds nice, it doesn't actually let CAP18 beat Aegislash because CAP18 will still suffer the Attack drop from King's Shield and Aegislash will still be able to switch out of us. Although this does make CAP18 much more threatening to Aegislash's teammates, we are still in big trouble against Aegislash, especially because Pursuit without STAB is very weak. Aegislash still has a free switch against us, and our core itself is no better off against the sword.

If we're going to take advantage of King's Shield or Shadow Ball, Contrary is a good choice for that. It can turn Shadow Ball's Special Defense drops into boosts and let us grab two attack boosts off of King's Shield, making killing Aegislash with Pursuit that much more possible.

 

[Galladium]

This is true... However Serene Grace has other uses outside of this such as perhaps giving Stat Drops/Boosts from coverage moves, such as Shadow Ball, Focus Miss or whatever else CAP18 is given. Also having a 60% burn rate on Scald makes it a ridiculously good move, limiting any need from prediction as it would cripple a good portion of the metagame that is switching in, bar specially oriented walls/tanks that resist the move and have reliable recovery, or pokemon that just don't care due to their ability, Guts or Magic Guard. It also lets us bypass Taunt and Magic Bounce, which are still common in the current metagame in the forms of Espeon for Magic Guard, and Infernape, Mandibuzz to name a few common Taunt users. Although both are viable, I would prefer Serene Grace. Accuracy is not all that much of an issue, since with 85% accuracy on WoW, that is still higher than the Serene Grace percentage on Scald/Lava Plume.

It's not just for Will-O-Wisp though. Compound Eyes allows us to run powerful moves with not so good accuracy, such Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. If you're purely looking at the burn, then yes, Serene Grace is a better option, but Compound Eyes allows us to have more firepower.

 

[escarlata]

There's one Ability that's gaining traction that makes very little sense to me, and that's Competitive. Competitive might make CAP18 pressure Aegislash better, but it's also ridiculously easy to play around and doesn't really let us do very much better against Aegislash itself. There are two consistent stat-lowering presences in OU right now: Intimidate and King's Shield.

CAP18 isn't likely to see many Intimidates, as Landorus-Therian and Mawile aren't smart switch-ins to CAP18 and Gyarados only has Intimidate before it Mega Evolves. The only Intimidate users CAP18 might struggle with are Mega Manectric and potentially Staraptor, which aren't OU anyway. King's Shield, on the other hand, is still not enough to justify Competitive. If we're trying to boost our Special Attack with Competitive, it's fair to assume we'll be either a Special or Specially-based mixed attacker. The only Special attack that is affected by King's Shield is Grass Knot, a move that's barely relevant in OU. Although using Pursuit to boost our Special Attack against King's Shield sounds nice, it doesn't actually let CAP18 beat Aegislash because CAP18 will still suffer the Attack drop from King's Shield and Aegislash will still be able to switch out of us. Although this does make CAP18 much more threatening to Aegislash's teammates, we are still in big trouble against Aegislash, especially because Pursuit without STAB is very weak. Aegislash still has a free switch against us, and our core itself is no better off against the sword.

If we're going to take advantage of King's Shield or Shadow Ball, Contrary is a good choice for that. It can turn Shadow Ball's Special Defense drops into boosts and let us grab two attack boosts off of King's Shield, making killing Aegislash with Pursuit that much more possible.

I figured that Competitive will receive remarks by a lot of members that there are not enough moves that can trigger it and get the boost effectively, but there is Foul Play, where whether or not King's Shield is used, it still puts the user at the advantage against Aegislash, either letting Aegislash eat a Foul Play in attack stance, or giving CAP18 a +2 SAtk. Before immediately brushing off Competitive as an options, note how well it pairs with Foul Play, and let us put the pressure on Aegislash. Sure it might restrict the movepool selection phase a bit, but it is one of the better options we have to beat Aegislash at its own game. Since we already are using a typing that does not get STAB on Pursuit, we need a fully invested 104 Atk stat, with a Life Orb, to even have a chance at OHKO-ing Aegislash at +2 with 80 BP Pursuit, so that might not be that viable an options since that would almost guarantee a mix attacker considering our typing is predominantly specially based, and it's hard to invest into effectively invest into both offenses. Since Pursuit trapping Aegislash is a no-no, the next best solution is to turn every match up against Aegislash a win-win situation for CAP18. Competitive Foul Play does just that imo, no matter how I look at it.

As for some calculations:

If Aegislash does not go King's Shield this happens:
Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 440-518 (135.8 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If he does, this happens:
+2 252+ SpA Flareon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Note how Competitive CAP18 only needs 95 SAtk to get the OHKO on Aegislash after the Competitive boost from King's Shield, which means it has aplenty to invest into bulk, to tank Shadow Balls and Sacred Sword, which means the need of Bulletproof is no more a concern.

 

[Yayz]

I really like Compoundeyes, actually. It allows for a good blend of reliable firepower (no pun intended) to roast Aegislash and discourage other switches, for example Heatran wouldn't like taking a STAB SE Hydro Pump. It also allows for reliable status to burn Aegislash on the KS, and (again!) discourage switches to physical attackers. I like it a lot.

 

[ReddyGo]

I'm hoping to bring Prankster back up because I think it's a really viable ability. People are really excited about the chance to spread burn with Serene Grace Lava Plume, but I think Prankster is the better way of accomplishing that goal. For starters, one cool effect is that (assuming we outspeed Aegislash) we could beat the Shadow Sneak after taking a Shadow Ball, which will really help CAP handle Aegislash that much better. We'd also be able to beat Azumaril's Aqua Jet and Scizor's Bullet Punch later on in the match when CAP might be in that KO range, making CAP a really hard check to those two. Plus, this somewhat patches the Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill weakness our core currently suffers from(though CAP probably still can't really switch in that well).

Furthermore, a lot of people don't seem to realize that in order to OHKO Aegislash-Shield, something I think most people have tossed around as something that is desired, we're going to need more firepower than Lava Plume. Just as a comparison,

248+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

And Chandelure has a base 145 Special Attack, which is pretty frickin high (I seriously doubt CAP will get a Special Attack that high). Running around with Lava Plume will probably allow Aegislash to King's Shield on CAP, revert to Shield mode so that it can tank the Lava Plume and then finish the Shadow Ball 2HKO. If we choose Serene Grace as our ability, we will invariably have to make Lava Plume able to hit that OHKO mark in order for CAP to function as a check. This will end us up with an unreal Special Attack, which let's CAP still access to the other more powerful Fire moves with that crazy Special Attack. I think, instead, we shouldn't shoehorn ourselves into that move and should instead just embrace Will-O-Wisp. With that in mind, Prankster seems like the best ability to utilize Will-o-Wisp to its full potential. This will obviously require us to be careful with what other Support moves we give CAP down the line, but I think that's a challenge we can definitely succeed at.

 

[JEFLIV]

Serene Grace is a useful way to spread burn around with Lava Plume and Scald, but the real reason it is viable is for the chance to land other status effects- if CAP 18 gets anything that can spread other status conditions besides burn (even flinch and the like), Serene Grace will help it do that. Prankster seems a bit overpowered and turns the CAP into a status spreader exclusively- and will have it seeing use outside of the core, which we don't want.

 

[mewtwo15026]

ReddyGo I don't think a Water/Fire CAP18 should worry about being in the KO range of Bullet Punch, but what you're saying makes sense - switch into scary thing, beat its priority with Will-O-Wisp, and burn it before it KO's you. Unless we get some other good passive moves, I'd personally pick Compoundeyes over Prankster for the increased accuracy of not only Will-O-Wisp but also things like Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, and Overheat.

JEFLIV What other status effects are we going to land? I suppose paralysis with Discharge or something, but boosting freeze rates to 20% still doesn't do all that much, regular poison is undesirable, and flinching isn't helpful without paralysis and extremely irritating alongside it. Major status conditions tend get in the way of spreading burns, which appears to be our focus at the moment. As for the potential for Prankster to turn CAP18 into a status slinger, it's very possible to make a Prankster Pokemon that doesn't exclusively sling status (see Thundurus). Finally, as has been pointed out to me numerous times: we don't care if CAP18 sees use outside the core as long as it sees success inside the core.

 

[alexwolf]

Regenerator is a good ability to deal with our threats sure, but Regenerator is a great ability for basically everything, so i am afraid it will make us a lose a lot of focus and make us unable to control the CAP's role to a big degree, which is very important when you want to make sure that this Pokemon will be often used with Lucario, a Pokemon that is not such a great choice in this metagame. The less we can control the CAP's role the less we can control and predict the CAP's teammates, which is not a good thing.

On the other hand, abilities such as Bulletproof, Contrary, and Intimidate give more concrete results with which you can accurately predict what the CAP will be able to fare well against, making them all better choices than Regenerator.

We all know what Bulletproof does so i will focus on the two other abilities. Intimidate gives us a specific buff in physical bulk which can also help teammates, especially Latias, but Lucario too in certain cases, while also helping against many of the Pokemon we are supposed to check, which is any physical attacker.

Contrary is another great ability for two reasons. The first is the ability to Pursuit trap Aegislash in Sword Forme or with a +2 boost in Shield Forme, which is going to leave a big dent in the very least. The second is because Overheat + Contrary is a wonderful combo that can make the CAP able to apply the necessary offensive presence while still having room to spare for other needed moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Pursuit, giving to the CAP a great blend of offensive, defensive, and supportive abilities all in one set. Also, this ability can easily be controlled by us in the movepool stage, so we can make sure it doesn't get out of control and doesn't lead to the CAP taking roles other than those we expected.

Also, Contrary is the only one of the good abilities that doesn't deal with Aegislash in a passive manner, and for this reason it's the best one proposed so far. No matter how hard the CAP walls Aegislash with Bulletproof or Intimidate (physical sets with Intimidate and special ones with good special bulk), if the CAP is not exceptionally hard to wall or check, the Aegislash user can just switch out and annoy our core throughout the whole game. Even worse, Aegislash has Pursuit to trap Latias, while without Contrary Pursuit the CAP can't do the same. So, Contrary solves our Aegislash problems in the best possible way, gives to the CAP some much needed offensive presence, and combines a great STAB with a set up move (Overheat), allowing the CAP to use all the necessary moves to deal with the threats we want it to (we need either WoW or an Electric or Grass move to deal with Azumarill for example, and we need Pursuit for Aegislash).

So, Contrary, Bulletproof, and Intimidate are the best abilities for the CAP, mentioned in order of preference.

 

[Scoopapa]

A lot of people seem to be assuming that Lava Plume/Scald is going to be the STAB combo of choice. Especially in arguing for Serence Grace, they are not accounting for the fact that other abilities might favor dual 110 BP STAB.

If you look at the threat list, though, there are a lot pokemon we should threaten that for a plausible range of special attack stats can simply be OHKOed by Fire Blast/Hydro Pump but not with Lava Plume/Scald. There are also a lot of pokemon on that list who are immune to burn or have other ways of dealing with it. The pokemon who are supposed to threaten us would also much rather switch in on Fire Blast/Hydro Pump than Scald/Lava Plume, although they also don't care too much more about Scald/Lava Plume than they do Will-o-Wisp. I should point out that I am not talking about which moves the CAP should or should not get. I'm assuming that all four will be available to us to work with, and saying that we need to consider the implications of all four moves when judging an ability.

I'm also not saying that Lava Plume and Scald are bad, of course. They do make us very hard to switch in on, and I see how that fits our goal of "offensive pressure". The problem is that with Serene Grace they are also a recipe for mindless spam. Again, things that can be spammed mindlessly are good, history has shown this. It is the fact that they are so safe against any switch-in that makes them suck for this concept, though, because pokemon with extremely spammable moves don't require much team support. We chose a typing that was mostly meant to put offensive pressure on the pokemon who give our core problems. Fire Blast and Hydro Pump are superior choices against the majority of these pokemon, while Lava Plume and Scald are safer choices in general. In other words, our threat list gets much less sharp and lot more fuzzy. I think it is healthy for the CAP's best move against its best switchins not to be the same as its best move against the pokemon it threatens. As such I think Serene Grace is promoting a strategy that may make for a good Fire/Water type but doesn't make us fit Latias and Lucario any better than any other ability.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The problem is that with Serene Grace they are also a recipe for mindless spam...It is the fact that they are so safe against any switch-in that makes them suck for this concept, though, because pokemon with extremely spammable moves don't require much team support... Fire Blast and Hydro Pump are superior choices against the majority of these pokemon, while Lava Plume and Scald are safer choices in general. In other words, our threat list gets much less sharp and lot more fuzzy. I think it is healthy for the CAP's best move against its best switchins not to be the same as its best move against the pokemon it threatens. As such I think Serene Grace is promoting a strategy that may make for a good Fire/Water type but doesn't make us fit Latias and Lucario any better than any other ability.

[Threats we should counter]
Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

I think there are a lot of things on this list that we would much rather have burned as they switch in. The benefits of Serene Grace is that both scald and lave plume can burn, so even if you mispredict who is going to switch in, as long as it's not a fire type there is still the risk of burn. Unaware Clefable doesn't like the burn, Mawile certainly doesn't like it, Togekiss probably can shake off hydros/blasts with proper investment, and thus dislikes the burn more; same with Sylveon. Azumarill certainly dislikes the burn more. The fire types, however, definitely would rather take a scald than a hydro pump, I'll admit (though not a lot of them will be able to deal high damage back to CAP18 anyway). Scizor and Forretress both could take hydro pumps, but would not like the burn chance of scalds; either flave plume or fire blast would decimate them, in all likelihood, however. The ground types, however, are a bit tricky. They are all crippled by the burn, but realistically would fall to hydro pumps sooner than scalds. However, it's not like they will be switching into predicted water moves anyway. Hippo and Lando would probably fear lava plume moreso than fire blast. Throughout the entire list, it is a very tricky balance. Moreso, since we don't know stats, we can't run definitive calculations on how the different damage outputs would effect things. I think it is undeniable that Serene Grace burns are better counter the fairies, and that Hydro Pump better counters the fires, but both with the Bugs and Grounds things get harder to split.

Moreover, I think it's unfair to necessarily conclude that Serene Grace doesn't offer team support. The burns help Latias and Lucario take hits better, and the extra damage from scald/lava plume helps Lucario get closer to cleaning up with extreme speed.


Regarding Prankster, the use of a priority-burns might be useful against some threats, particularly Mawile and Landorus-T. I don't think it's a bad ability, but I think Lucario appreciates the extra damage that scald and lava plume provide even more so.

Compound Eyes seems like a less overpowered version of No Guard, and overall I wouldn't mind it too much either. It would allow for both burn spreading and high base power moves, that's for sure, and it's a bit worrisome to me, but a lot less broken option than no guard infernos. Perhaps it would let the opponent more reliably switch into STAB attack moves without the risk of burn though, which might force a few switches in which Latias can't capitalize on a weakened (burned) foe to help cushion blows.

 

[mewtwo15026]

I don't actually think that any of those special attackers with 50% recovery moves particularly mind burns. Granted, burns do add incentive to spend a turn Roosting or Softboileding or what have you, and smart play can take advantage of that, but it's still better for them than toxic or paralysis. Besides, if your logic is true, Rotom-W and Lati@s can't reliably check it because burn. I still prefer Compoundeyes for those matchups because the higher-powered STAB deals as much damage to Clefable, Togekiss, etc. as Scald/Plume + burn and allows something else to come in and Toxic or Thunder Wave them.

 

[PttP]

Seeing as how this has gone on for quite a while, it's about time to wrap this up. This is the 10 Hour Warning, so get your final arguments in before it's too late!

 

[Draco Blue]

I'd like to throw some support behind Regenerator and No Guard.

To those claiming that Regenerator would hurt our synergy with Latias' Defog, it would actually have much the opposite effect. If Latias can remove the hazards to which this CAP is susceptible, the CAP finds more safe opportunities to switch in throughout the match, ideally spreading burns that help Latias have an easier time. As someone mentioned before, Latias may not always be able to Defog, and so being able to get in and heal off the hazard damage alone is quite useful; Latias' Defog becomes much more of an aid than a necessity. Not only this, but should our Latias be carrying Wish, we're looking at the potential to keep the CAP alive for a very long time. If we want to take more of a defensive approach to the CAP, I definitely think it's our best bet.

On the other hand, No Guard is a fantastic offensive blessing. I believe that it outclasses Serene Grace, simply because the main draw of Serene Grace is the boosted burn chance, which we can achieve more reliably through Inferno (supposing we decide to give it to the CAP) while also doing damage, or even just Will-o-Wisp. Meanwhile, it broadens our offensive options, whereas Serene Grace somewhat limits them since if you aren't using something with a secondary effect you're really just wasting the ability. No Guard is definitely a solid choice.

All of this said... the idea of giving the CAP Rattled has grown progressively more viable in my mind. With Rattled, this CAP would essentialy turn using U-turn into a liability, as not only does it resist it, but the switch-in now has to deal with an opponent that's had its speed boosted, and if our CAP has any sort of respectable Speed, this means it will more than likely be faster than its opponent, reducing our reliance on prediction (whether to burn or attack seems like the most likely dilemma). It also allows us to stay in on Pursuiters, and with prediction, the ability to punish Pokemon using Knock Off as well. Aegislash of course doesn't want to boost our Speed, and if we can handle a Shadow Ball/Claw + Shadow Sneak combination and 2HKO in return, we will always win the matchup, as its other moves will do a pittance, especially if it's burned. Rattled also happens to have flawless defensive type synergy with Latias, helping us pivot between the two more effectively. I think it's worth considering.