I haven't had any issues with Weavile. I always assume they are SD, so I usually attack it right off the bat. Without any boosts, jolly LO doesn't do much work in the beginning stages of the game. Just keeping your Pokes healthy until late game is where Weavile shines. If you are able to weaken mons to a point were priority and Knock Off Kill, Weavile can clean up.
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Yeah, I've found Weavile's problem to be extreme frailty. Basically, as long as you can hit it neutrally, just stay in and hit it. You know it's probably going to SD when it comes in, so just punish setup with at least a remotely powerful neutral attack. However, late-game is where Weavile can truly become scary. With that incredible Speed, powerful STAB Knock Off, and priority in Ice Shard, it can be a bit challenging to keep Weavile from a sweep if your walls are weakened into Knock Off KO range and your Scarf users can't handle a +2 Ice Shard.
From what i have noticed, people tend to setup too early with weavile. I know knock off has good neutral coverage and is spammable and ice shard is scary for scarfers at 2. But, even then it can be checked by strong defensive walls or scarfers who survive a 2 ice shard. Mega manectric can also check it with intimidate. But, once its checks are sufficiently weakened it is frightening as hell.
For an offensive mon, defenses should not be considered a huge viability factor. For example, Deoxys-A and S are locked away in higher tiers, and they are far less bulky than Weavile. Weavile doesn't give a shit about taking hits, it's about dishing out hits, and that's the issue. Weavile is simply not strong enough to dent teams like Crawdaunt or Bisharp.
First off, Weavile is forced to run LO or an SD set to do damage. Its STABS are not that powerful when considered Close Combats, V-Create's, HJK, and Flare Blitzs are being used everywhere. To put it in perspective, Ice Punch is still weaker than Scald. Knock off is very strong initially, and can potentially ruin a Mon (Such as Gligar); however, after that first initial knock off, Weavile becomes very weak. In order to get consistent kills, Weavile needs to be at +2. +2 is already hard to get to see as how fast paced the UU Meta is at this point in time, with bulky Modest MegaToise being used, Scarf Darm and Victini being widely used, and things of that nature.
Weavile is rather one dimensional. The only viable sets are physical ones, which makes Weavile less dangerous than Victini who can go special, physical, or mixed. Weavile does not perform its one set amazingly well. For a late game sweeper, Bulky Metagross would do just fine with BP, and it has the bulk to take hits. Metagross can actually use Agility to neuter most teams late game. CS Reckless Mienshao could do the same. Weavile has stiff competition in terms of late game cleaning, especially with CroCune running around.
Overall, I would say Weavile is one of the best Pokemon in UU; however, it is right where it should be. I often find myself focusing on how to take down a Mega Blastoise without taking too much damage rather than Weavile.
Just my $.02
First off, Weavile is forced to run LO or an SD set to do damage. Its STABS are not that powerful when considered Close Combats, V-Create's, HJK, and Flare Blitzs are being used everywhere. To put it in perspective, Ice Punch is still weaker than Scald. Knock off is very strong initially, and can potentially ruin a Mon (Such as Gligar); however, after that first initial knock off, Weavile becomes very weak. In order to get consistent kills, Weavile needs to be at +2. +2 is already hard to get to see as how fast paced the UU Meta is at this point in time, with bulky Modest MegaToise being used, Scarf Darm and Victini being widely used, and things of that nature.
Weavile is rather one dimensional. The only viable sets are physical ones, which makes Weavile less dangerous than Victini who can go special, physical, or mixed. Weavile does not perform its one set amazingly well. For a late game sweeper, Bulky Metagross would do just fine with BP, and it has the bulk to take hits. Metagross can actually use Agility to neuter most teams late game. CS Reckless Mienshao could do the same. Weavile has stiff competition in terms of late game cleaning, especially with CroCune running around.
Overall, I would say Weavile is one of the best Pokemon in UU; however, it is right where it should be. I often find myself focusing on how to take down a Mega Blastoise without taking too much damage rather than Weavile.
Just my $.02
I thought the best set was a LO all out attacker with knock off ice shard low kick and either ice punch or pursuit. Am I using it wrong??
Nah I think what he was referring is the way people use Weavile to play matches, not necessarily the set itself, as that seems to be the standard for Weavile. I can't speak for koko obviously, but I am pretty sure that the LO set is standard and very dangerous in this meta.
What are you going to pursuit anyway?
On another note, can we all acknowledge how anti-meta Rain Offense is right now? Tornadus + 2 Swift Swim can basically destroy the whole meta right now.
bro kingdra/tornadus/kabutops plus rain setter sounds like a dangerous fucking core
Kingdra and Tornadus often set their own rain, though Specs Tornadus and Kingdra are extremely dangerous.
Drizzle is gonna have absolutely one of the shortest retest periods. You've got Pokes like Tornadus, Kingdra, but also overlooked stuff like Omastar, who hits a cool 916 with a Timid nature under rain at +2 while flattening Florges (on my phone, can someone check the veracity of that claim?), or Cloyster, who crushes Mega Aggron with Naive Hydro Pump now.
Got ya covered, brother:
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Rain: 262-310 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thanks. I did get a chance to look it up, and that just solidifies my claim that Drizzle will be gone extremely quickly. What does Cloyster do to Mega Aggron under rain? Hydro Pump or Razor Shell.
I haven't seen Whimsicott in its entirety in a long time.
In short, no, it's not remotely overpowered. There's a lot of excellent Grass-types in the tier, including Roserade who I think always OHKOs with Sludge Bomb and Trevenant who is infinitely better as a SubSeeder, that automatically wall SubSeed. Hell, I almost lost to a SubSeed Trevenant earlier today.
In short, no, it's not remotely overpowered. There's a lot of excellent Grass-types in the tier, including Roserade who I think always OHKOs with Sludge Bomb and Trevenant who is infinitely better as a SubSeeder, that automatically wall SubSeed. Hell, I almost lost to a SubSeed Trevenant earlier today.
My turn to cover you:
+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron in Rain: 259-306 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. this is for King's Rock variants. Life Orb variants OHKO 100% of the time after Rocks. (still OHKOes 87.5% of the time without Rocks)
Christ. Do we even want Drizzle back? Shell Smashers just shit on everything.
Yeah, rain teams are really strong in both OU and UU (even without Drizzle.) I don't play UU a lot but in OU, against offensive teams, some of my matches only last like eight turns: suicide lead uses rain dance and then Kingdra and Kabutops shred them to pieces without response. If they have a full stop like Ferrothorn, it's really not too much of an issue to wear it down to the point where it's 2HKOed by specs Surf. Right now, the team I commonly use in OU is entirely legal in UU with the exception of Mega Mawile and Drizzle Politoed, pretty much anything a rain team could want is available in UU.
It's kind of hard to exaggerate how much ass swift swimmers can kick in rain, so:
Kingdra OHKOs or 2HKOs almost the entire game with its specs, rain boosted Hydro Pumps and Dragon STAB (Ice Beam is also an option,) which wouldn't be that amazing if it wasn't so disgustingly fast (effective 220 base speed in rain!) Not only that, it's decently bulky at 75/95/95 and has a decent typing with only two weakness.
Of course it can be countered. Max SDef Gastrodon and Jellicent can do it. Empoleon is okay but can't recover: that's another thing about offensive rain teams. Every swift swimmer has the coverage (e.g. Ludicolo's Grass STAB) and raw power to severely damage pretty much any given swift swimmer road block that they probably set up a win condition for the next swift swimmer, unless you're running multiple bulky waters/water immune stuff or some extremely specific bullshit like Assault Vest Toxicroak or Life Orb Gardevoir.
It's kind of hard to exaggerate how much ass swift swimmers can kick in rain, so:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Rain: 190-225 (52.7 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Rain: 156-184 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^154 special defense isn't enough to save you if you don't resist.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise in Rain: 158-186 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
^79/115 with resistance isn't enough either.
Kingdra Surf vs. Water Absorb Vaporeon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
^There we go.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 193-228 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^Fuck.
Not even going to bother posting calcs for Kabutops. If if gets a swords dance off you're pretty much finished, if you don't resist water you need the bulk of Mega Aggron to survive a +2 Waterfall, and need to be pretty damn bulky (think Slowbro) or resist it to survive a +2 Stone Edge.
Ludicolo I've not used a lot, but Grass STAB is so good for a Swift Swimmer and lets it beat bulky waters.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Rain: 156-184 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^154 special defense isn't enough to save you if you don't resist.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise in Rain: 158-186 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
^79/115 with resistance isn't enough either.
Kingdra Surf vs. Water Absorb Vaporeon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
^There we go.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 193-228 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
^Fuck.
Not even going to bother posting calcs for Kabutops. If if gets a swords dance off you're pretty much finished, if you don't resist water you need the bulk of Mega Aggron to survive a +2 Waterfall, and need to be pretty damn bulky (think Slowbro) or resist it to survive a +2 Stone Edge.
Ludicolo I've not used a lot, but Grass STAB is so good for a Swift Swimmer and lets it beat bulky waters.
Kingdra OHKOs or 2HKOs almost the entire game with its specs, rain boosted Hydro Pumps and Dragon STAB (Ice Beam is also an option,) which wouldn't be that amazing if it wasn't so disgustingly fast (effective 220 base speed in rain!) Not only that, it's decently bulky at 75/95/95 and has a decent typing with only two weakness.
Of course it can be countered. Max SDef Gastrodon and Jellicent can do it. Empoleon is okay but can't recover: that's another thing about offensive rain teams. Every swift swimmer has the coverage (e.g. Ludicolo's Grass STAB) and raw power to severely damage pretty much any given swift swimmer road block that they probably set up a win condition for the next swift swimmer, unless you're running multiple bulky waters/water immune stuff or some extremely specific bullshit like Assault Vest Toxicroak or Life Orb Gardevoir.
oh please don't bring weathers back it will be gen 5 OU all over again.
Expect some ridiculous calcs for weather threats tomorrow from me if nobody else does it, but let's just say that some of the threats in weather are totally insane. I'll just list off some abusers for each weather and how they use it (if needed; some are obvious)
Rain: Kingdra, Omastar, Cloyster, Tornadus, Moltres (Hurricane and shits on Grass-types) Mega-Ampharos, Mega-Blastoise, Kabutops, Raikou, Toxicroak (Dry Skin) and even Vivillon (Hurricane)
Sun: Mega-Houndoom, Entei, Victini, Victreebel, Shiftry, Chandelure (dear god...) Darmanitan (if you thought it hit hard before...) Heliolisk (Solar Power bitchez) Moltres, and Mega-Manectric (juiced up Overheat / Flamethrower)
kokoloko , I don't use Weavile simply because I normally fall flat on my face when I use HO; I can't stand not being able to use defensive switches in a pinch, so I know I'd use Weavile wrong lol...
Rain: Kingdra, Omastar, Cloyster, Tornadus, Moltres (Hurricane and shits on Grass-types) Mega-Ampharos, Mega-Blastoise, Kabutops, Raikou, Toxicroak (Dry Skin) and even Vivillon (Hurricane)
Sun: Mega-Houndoom, Entei, Victini, Victreebel, Shiftry, Chandelure (dear god...) Darmanitan (if you thought it hit hard before...) Heliolisk (Solar Power bitchez) Moltres, and Mega-Manectric (juiced up Overheat / Flamethrower)
kokoloko , I don't use Weavile simply because I normally fall flat on my face when I use HO; I can't stand not being able to use defensive switches in a pinch, so I know I'd use Weavile wrong lol...
EDIT: Didn't actually edit this in, but fuck yeah for my 1000th post, time to get crunk.
I'm surprised you listed Mega Manectric for Sun but not Rain. Thunder? Hello? Vivillon already has an absurdly accurate Hurricane, not to mention Heliolisk is arguably better under Rain as well, since you get Dry Skin recovery plus Thunder.
That being said, I think Mega Houndoom is the hardest hitting Pokemon in UU if it's under sun, and maybe in the game, barring boosting items (which it physically cannot carry). Let's check!
From some calcs I ran last gen, I know that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the second hardest hitting move in the game, after Kyogre's Water Spout.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 217-256 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 214-253 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 207-244 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 195-231 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 192-226 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Prior to Gen VI, the five hardest hitting attacks in the game. Let's see Mega Houndoom:
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 153-180 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not terribly impressive, it can't even land an OHKO after Rocks! Now let's simulate Solar Power, a +1 boost, but not calculate the weather boost.
+1 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 228-268 (103.1 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not even Kyogre's Water Spout can match that power. How about we pit sun-boosted Solar Power Fire Blast against the hardiest special wall in the game?
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 271-321 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
God forbid it gets a Nasty Plot off (especially considering he'd be losing a lot of HP), but even at +1 he 2HKOs Chansey. That's absurd, and actually pretty fucking easy to do considering we've got some bitchin' Quiver/Calm Mind/Smash Passers. Now, I could run calcs factoring in weather boosts and all that, but it's safe to say that, thanks to Solar Power, Mega Houndoom is the deadliest son of a bitch in space. Or UU. So no weather, plox.
Clear Skies UU 2014. Except sand and hail, I guess.
I'm surprised you listed Mega Manectric for Sun but not Rain. Thunder? Hello? Vivillon already has an absurdly accurate Hurricane, not to mention Heliolisk is arguably better under Rain as well, since you get Dry Skin recovery plus Thunder.
That being said, I think Mega Houndoom is the hardest hitting Pokemon in UU if it's under sun, and maybe in the game, barring boosting items (which it physically cannot carry). Let's check!
From some calcs I ran last gen, I know that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the second hardest hitting move in the game, after Kyogre's Water Spout.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 217-256 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 214-253 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 207-244 (93.6 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 195-231 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 192-226 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Prior to Gen VI, the five hardest hitting attacks in the game. Let's see Mega Houndoom:
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 153-180 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not terribly impressive, it can't even land an OHKO after Rocks! Now let's simulate Solar Power, a +1 boost, but not calculate the weather boost.
+1 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dusclops: 228-268 (103.1 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not even Kyogre's Water Spout can match that power. How about we pit sun-boosted Solar Power Fire Blast against the hardiest special wall in the game?
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 271-321 (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
God forbid it gets a Nasty Plot off (especially considering he'd be losing a lot of HP), but even at +1 he 2HKOs Chansey. That's absurd, and actually pretty fucking easy to do considering we've got some bitchin' Quiver/Calm Mind/Smash Passers. Now, I could run calcs factoring in weather boosts and all that, but it's safe to say that, thanks to Solar Power, Mega Houndoom is the deadliest son of a bitch in space. Or UU. So no weather, plox.
Clear Skies UU 2014. Except sand and hail, I guess.
I also want to add :
Rain : Noivern(Hurricane), Heliolisk(Thunder,Dry Skin,Surf), Ludicolo.
Sun : Sawsbuck.
Heliolisk under Sun is a tad bit disapointing. It doesn't learn Fire moves nor Solar Beam so it can't abuse the sun to its fullest... Its damage output is almost the same as under Rain with LO except our lizard friend here now have Rain boosted Surfs, no-miss Thunder and instead of taking 10% damage it actually heals back the recoil.
It is amazing in Rain teams however, as besides the qualities mentioned in the above, it also has Grass Knot and STAB Thunder to take care of opposing Water types that might try to take advantage of your Rain. A fast Volt Switch is also amazing for momentum grabbing and can allow other teammates to make use of the Rain without giving a free turn. Its typing is also quite a blessing as it discourages opposing Chandelure to lock itself in Shadow Ball while the rain neuters its other STAB.
Another aspect of the weather I wanna talk about is Weather Ball. Under Rain/Sun it becomes a whooping 150 BP attack with 100% accuracy... Sweet. Raikou, Victreebel and Roserade are the most notable users, spamming high BP STABs like Thunder and Solar Beam all the while having a 150BP coverage move to boot. "Hi Escavalier who tries to switch in my Solar Beam.... Try taking this Weather Ball instead... lol u mad?"
It is amazing in Rain teams however, as besides the qualities mentioned in the above, it also has Grass Knot and STAB Thunder to take care of opposing Water types that might try to take advantage of your Rain. A fast Volt Switch is also amazing for momentum grabbing and can allow other teammates to make use of the Rain without giving a free turn. Its typing is also quite a blessing as it discourages opposing Chandelure to lock itself in Shadow Ball while the rain neuters its other STAB.
Another aspect of the weather I wanna talk about is Weather Ball. Under Rain/Sun it becomes a whooping 150 BP attack with 100% accuracy... Sweet. Raikou, Victreebel and Roserade are the most notable users, spamming high BP STABs like Thunder and Solar Beam all the while having a 150BP coverage move to boot. "Hi Escavalier who tries to switch in my Solar Beam.... Try taking this Weather Ball instead... lol u mad?"
weather ball becomes 100 bp under weather
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