XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

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I've never done this before, so hopefully I'm doing this right, but I'd like to nominate Lickilicky for B-/C+ rank. He's the third biggest Wish passer in the tier behind Alomomola and Wigglytuff, but unlike the two aforementioned Pokes, Lickilicky operates as a bulky mixed wall. However, the real kicker for Lickilicky this gen is the mechanic change to one of his abilities, Oblivious, which now prevents Taunt. With access to moves like Wish and Heal Bell, Lickilicky is the only healer and cleric outside the much less bulky Aromatisse who can't be deterred from supporting his team.

The strong presence of Fighting types in UU, as well as Lickilicky's low speed, work against his ranking, but I think his movepool, bulk, and ability to fit on almost any team outshine these flaws. There are numerous Pokemon Lickilicky could be partnered with (Slowbro/Slowking, Granbull, etc.) to cover the Fighting weakness, anyway.
Not a bad argument, but you are neglecting Vaporeon, who has heal bell, is the actual third largest wish passer in the tier, can combo wish + BP for more guaranteed wish passes, has scald and scald immunity, and can phaze with roar. Phys defensive vaporeon also makes a great mixed wall, as even uninvested it's sp defense is not bad. Licklicky does have taunt immunity, which is very helpful, but imo much more situational then scald immunity, which makes vap a hard counter to S mons like Suicune and Slowbro (no vap can't kill them, but free wish passes to damaged allies counts as a victory in my book. Vap also stops any attempts to setup with roar and can do so at little risk almost regardless of how much either of the two have setup). The problem with being weak to fighting is that almost all fightings carry knock off, meaning that a force out means the incoming mon loses it's item. Wish passing helps a lot with that, but it's still not fun.

Any particular area where Licklicky outshines vap? I've used lickitung a bit in LC, and I found t-wave and s-toss to be kind of useful, but besides that, I got nothing.

please ignore that... I was derping hardcore and meant knock off
 
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Not a bad argument, but you are neglecting Vaporeon, who has heal bell, is the actual third largest wish passer in the tier, can combo wish + BP for more guaranteed wish passes, has scald and scald immunity, and can phaze with roar. Phys defensive vaporeon also makes a great mixed wall, as even uninvested it's sp defense is not bad. Licklicky does have taunt immunity, which is very helpful, but imo much more situational then scald immunity, which makes vap a hard counter to S mons like Suicune and Slowbro (no vap can't kill them, but free wish passes to damaged allies counts as a victory in my book. Vap also stops any attempts to setup with roar and can do so at little risk almost regardless of how much either of the two have setup). The problem with being weak to fighting is that almost all fightings carry knock off, meaning that a force out means the incoming mon loses it's item. Wish passing helps a lot with that, but it's still not fun.

Any particular area where Licklicky outshines vap? I've used lickitung a bit in LC, and I found t-wave and s-toss to be kind of useful, but besides that, I got nothing.
Lickitung doesn't get T-Wave and Seismic Toss is a horrible move in LC. Not that I'm trying to say that you're lying about having experience with it or anything >_>

Anyways, Lickilicky can phaze effectively with Dragon Tail so that point is kinda moot. It only has one weakness unlike Vaporeon, meaning it can also come in on things like Raikou and Mega Manectric. Vaporeon can't be a phazer and Cleric at the same time either, as Protect is vital to survive. Lickitung on the other hand can be both a phazer and a cleric AND a WishPasser. Alternatively, you could just go with Body Slam over Dragon Tail to spread paralysis. I personally never found Vaporeon to be too useful, Suicune is a better bulky Water by miles despite fullfilling different roles. Lickilicky on the other hand is a very solid special wall, cleric and WishPasser. That being said I've only used it in LU on PO, I doubt it would perform as wel in UU. Umbreon does its role better generally speaking. Worth ranking? Maybe, but not too high.
 
i used to run lickilicky back when torn-t was around, since being immune to taunt and being able to spam body slam to get paralysis AND the team supporting was kinda cool, especially since it wasn't an easy pokemon to break (only one weakness that is relatively easy to cover). i'd rank it C though, since i'd still take momola or vaporeon over it for more bulk/arguably better typing.
 
Lickitung doesn't get T-Wave and Seismic Toss is a horrible move in LC. Not that I'm trying to say that you're lying about having experience with it or anything >_>

Anyways, Lickilicky can phaze effectively with Dragon Tail so that point is kinda moot. It only has one weakness unlike Vaporeon, meaning it can also come in on things like Raikou and Mega Manectric. Vaporeon can't be a phazer and Cleric at the same time either, as Protect is vital to survive. Lickitung on the other hand can be both a phazer and a cleric AND a WishPasser. Alternatively, you could just go with Body Slam over Dragon Tail to spread paralysis. I personally never found Vaporeon to be too useful, Suicune is a better bulky Water by miles despite fullfilling different roles. Lickilicky on the other hand is a very solid special wall, cleric and WishPasser. That being said I've only used it in LU on PO, I doubt it would perform as well in UU. Umbreon does its role better generally speaking. Worth ranking? Maybe, but not too high.
I want to hit that statement in particular, as I have ran vaporeon with fine success without wishtect.

Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
- Baton Pass
- Wish
- Roar/haze/heal bell
- Scald

While the lack of wishtect makes healing yourself difficult, it is by no means impossible. Vaporeon walls many mons quite nicely, and can set up a wish that way. Preemptive roaring helps with buying yourself the needed extra turn to receive your own wish. This vaporeon set works best on very offensive teams containing mons that tend to take recoil damage like Darm or reckless mienshao, so longevity isn't so much the point of this set as is guaranteeing that critical wish pass that allows your darm to use flare blitz a few more times without dieing. I've always found dtail to be very meh, non-perfect accuracy and not going through subs can really mess up your day, as licklicky's dtail is unlikely to be breaking subs.

*edit*

for the record, I also usually run two wish passers, so that might have something to do with my success.
 

Windsong

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I want to hit that statement in particular, as I have ran vaporeon with fine success without wishtect.
Just because your opponents are bad doesn't make a set good. If you're having success with wish + no protect vappy then that means you're playing people that don't know what they're doing.

Vaporeon and Licky are both cool mons, and even though they both kind of suck right now Licky probably deserves some merit for walling + phazing electrics and grasses that vappy can't handle and non focus blast nidos. Again, they both kind of suck right now, but Licky probably has enough niche to put it into mid C/C+.

Vappy from B+ --> B would also be cool since it's worse than all the other bulky waters and its only niche is through wishpassing + Scald immunity. Being strong enough to not be complete setup bait things that take scald neutral is kinda cool but Mew, Suicune, Kyurem, Florges, grasses, electrics, and a ton of other things all get essentially free turns against Vappy.
 
I think weavile should move to A rank. On top of the fact that weavile is frail, it's STAB's fail to OHKO or even 2HKO some pokemon on a switch, as well as the number of counters that put a complete stop to him.
 
Just because your opponents are bad doesn't make a set good. If you're having success with wish + no protect vappy then that means you're playing people that don't know what they're doing.

Vaporeon and Licky are both cool mons, and even though they both kind of suck right now Licky probably deserves some merit for walling + phazing electrics and grasses that vappy can't handle and non focus blast nidos. Again, they both kind of suck right now, but Licky probably has enough niche to put it into mid C/C+.

Vappy from B+ --> B would also be cool since it's worse than all the other bulky waters and its only niche is through wishpassing + Scald immunity. Being strong enough to not be complete setup bait things that take scald neutral is kinda cool but Mew, Suicune, Kyurem, Florges, grasses, electrics, and a ton of other things all get essentially free turns against Vappy.
You might have had a point... if it were the case that that was the only argument I put forward for vap's viability, which it's not. The only reason why vap would want wishtect is if A you were trying to stall with it (better mons for that) or B already had phazing and heal belling covered. Being able to phase out bulky mons like slowbro and suicune (the latter of whom's most popular set involves running mono-water STAB and setting up multiple calm minds) OR taking the opportunity to heal up your allies at no risk to those weakened allies is a huge niche. By running BP, you get to play mind games with your opponent whenever you use wish. Are you going to try to use it on yourself? Are you just going to BP out to a weakened mon whose now suddenly threatening? Are you going to take the opportunity to fish for a scald burn? Vaporeon's ability to provide near fail-safe wishes at least once a match (more often if you play smart) essentially gives vaporeon all the benefits of healing wish with the chance of still being useful after using it. That's big (the wishes are pretty big too, for what it's worth).

Licklicky cannot phaze subbed enemies, who are frequently among the most dangerous setup sweepers due to the fact that sound moves, phazing, and the relatively uncommon infiltrator are pretty much the only three counters to it.

*edit*

That being said, C/C+ seems fine for Licklicky
 
I think that you're misinterpreting the role of Protect on the standard Vaporeon set. As it were, the purpose of it is (in order of relevance):
  • to allow Vaporeon to effectively receive its own Wishes when necessary
  • to scout the opponent's move (most pertinent in regards to Choice users)
  • to accumulate chip damage on the opponent from burn / poison
'Stalling' the burn turns is more of a secondary benefit to Protect, as without it Vaporeon cannot rely upon Wish as a means of recovery on nearly as consistent a basis, and if that's the case then it begins to even more seriously narrow its niche in contrast to alternate bulky Water-types, most of whom possess more consistent means of reliable recovery (Slack Off, Recover, etc.). Furthermore, I fail to understand the rationale behind Baton Pass over Protect :/ You state that it serves as a means to play 'mind games' with the opponent in regards to who will receive the Wish, but as a generality, the same is accomplished on a more consistent basis with Protect; you as a player are capable of either assuring Vaporeon heals itself via Protecting to receive the Wish, or you choose to hard switch in order to pass it off to a partner. The primary application I see to this is allowing Vaporeon to sponge a hit, and thereafter use its slow Baton Pass to pass it to the partner without a risk on the partner's part, but in adopting such an approach you as a player really restrict how effective Vaporeon can be in its most basic role, a bulky Water-type. Without the assurance of Protect, it needs to consistently attempt to Wish a turn before it would've had to otherwise in order to maintain its own HP, which just gives the opponent loads of offensive momentum, since you're forced in cycles that leave you highly susceptible to hax of whatever kind.

That being said, I would agree that Vaporeon could probably get knocked down to B, perhaps even B-. Reliance on Wish+Protect for recovery in contrast to more immediate recovery really restricts its move-slots quite a lot (leaving only 1 slot for any of tox / heal bell / roar / whatever), giving it all sorts of 4MSS, and frankly I'd say that Alomomola generally outclasses it as a Water-type Wish passer, as Regenerator makes it far less reliant on receiving its own Wishes to remain healthy. As a cleric, Florges and Umbreon perform much more consistently, and can generally limit set-up on the part of the opponent better than Vaporeon in most cases. If anything, Vaporeon could have a niche as a 'mon that fills the roles of a cleric and bulky Water-type in a singular moveslot, but honestly that doesn't sound like a good thing in the first place :/ With both roles being quintessential to a typical defensive build, I wouldn't want them condensed into a single team-slot, since it would put far too much pressure on it to fill various significant jobs, which makes a misplay, surprise set, or instance of hax all the more damning. Given what is currently available in the tier, I would match rather build with Florges / Umbreon + an alternate bulky Water 90+% of the time, rather than freeing up a team-slot for something else.
 

Windsong

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You might have had a point... if it were the case that that was the only argument I put forward for vap's viability, which it's not. The only reason why vap would want wishtect is if A you were trying to stall with it (better mons for that) or B already had phazing and heal belling covered. Being able to phase out bulky mons like slowbro and suicune (the latter of whom's most popular set involves running mono-water STAB and setting up multiple calm minds) OR taking the opportunity to heal up your allies at no risk to those weakened allies is a huge niche. By running BP, you get to play mind games with your opponent whenever you use wish. Are you going to try to use it on yourself? Are you just going to BP out to a weakened mon whose now suddenly threatening? Are you going to take the opportunity to fish for a scald burn? Vaporeon's ability to provide near fail-safe wishes at least once a match (more often if you play smart) essentially gives vaporeon all the benefits of healing wish with the chance of still being useful after using it. That's big (the wishes are pretty big too, for what it's worth).

Licklicky cannot phaze subbed enemies, who are frequently among the most dangerous setup sweepers due to the fact that sound moves, phazing, and the relatively uncommon infiltrator are pretty much the only three counters to it.

*edit*

That being said, C/C+ seems fine for Licklicky
I'm sorry but you just flat out don't know what you're talking about.

The reason for Vappy to have Protect is so it can actually get healed from its own Wishes instead of being able to set up a Wish and never receive it. Against half decent offense, Wish + no Protect Vaporeon is literally never going to be able to heal itself, since every time you bring in Vappy and go for a Wish, they'll have brought out something that forces Vaporeon out and you won't be able to Protect and heal. This basically means that you have zero ability to actually take attacks more than once and you're going to get Vappy worn down then mauled by some random fire type. Against full stall (where Vaporeon is a completely dead weight anyways in terms of doing anything and is probably just going to get taunted regardless) you MIGHT be able to heal yourself up with a wish, provided you are faster than whatever their phazer is (if it's something like Mew then no, you won't be able to receive your own Wish) or they have nothing that can force out Vaporeon (Celebi, Roserade, and Raikou are all totally viable on stall and stop Vaporeon from ever getting its own wishes).

Basically, without protect, you're not going to be receiving your own Wishes (don't kid yourself -- if you think that your Wish + no Protect Vaporeon is going to be able to heal itself, then you've been playing really bad opponents) and your comment that Vaporeon can pass near fail safe Wishes at least once per match is, quite frankly, utter bullshit. You're going to get one, maybe two switch-ins into stuff that Vaporeon should be able to repeatedly counter, and then you're not going to be able to repeatedly counter those things because you're not healing yourself. If you think that you're going to be able to effectively heal frail offensive stuff (you use Darm and Mienshao as examples), then you're also wrong, because as soon as you bring in Vaporeon to set up a Wish, your opponent's just going to bring in something strong that forces out Vappy (Raikou/Jolt/Ampharos/Shaymin/Roserade/a bazillion other things) and your chance to heal your frail offensive mon is gone, as is your chance to heal Vaporeon.

There are maybe two mons that can effectively use Wish without also using Protect/Softboiled/Recover/Roost and Vaporeon is not one of those mons. You've got some cool options for Vappy's fourth moveslot in Roar, BP, and Heal Bell, but you will never be running both of those on any good Vaporeon set and 90% of the time Vaporeon's just a worse Alomomola/Florges.
 
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there are two mons? what is the other, besides regenerator alomomola? o_O Ernesto edit: Regenerator Audino of course :o

that said, i think the best vaporeon set is wish/protect/scald/bp, it functions as an extremely good pivot for offensive teams needing a switch for powerful fire spammers, plus receiving 232 HP for free is amazing for offensive mons.
 
There is a very good post on the OU forum under Stall page 29 made by Ajwf which talks about P2 being sort of a wild card pokemon, especially for stall, with its role changing depending on the abilities it could grab, the nature of the game etc you guys should really check it out. It gives P2 a real niche that is deserving of something higher than B-
 
Trace Porygon is a mixed bag specifically because it's only as good as the ability it copies (well, not only, but you could gery well be better with Download or Analytic). Regenerator/Thick Fat/Fur Coat/*insert elemental immunity* is incredible for walling, Sheer Force is great for the tank set, but what does Guts give it? Or Victory Star?
 
Trace Porygon is a mixed bag specifically because it's only as good as the ability it copies (well, not only, but you could gery well be better with Download or Analytic). Regenerator/Thick Fat/Fur Coat/*insert elemental immunity* is incredible for walling, Sheer Force is great for the tank set, but what does Guts give it? Or Victory Star?
The thing about P2 is that you can have all of these abilities and you are not confined to a single one ability if you used trace. It is such a good general utility wall and tank due to its typing and it's role can shift depending on how you need it or whatever creative abilities you can pick up! In fact, an opponent might be pressured not to bring out pokes whose abilities P2 can trace, which can really help you throughout the course of the battle. etc you have a Nidoking problem? P2 comes in and suddenly you have a bolt beam or tribal attacker which can do good damage to the opposing team. Trace Speed boost? Suddenly you get a fast and bulky sweeper good for cleaning weakened teams. Need a status absorber? Trace natural cure from the gazillion grass types around. Or even better magic guard from reuniclus. There are so many roles P2 can fulfill depending on the outcome of the match that it is truly a Jack of all trades pokemon that is deserving of A or B+ at least
Oh and Victory Star gives it 99% accurate toxic. And most guts users are fighting types which P2 has no business dealing with
 
The thing about P2 is that you can have all of these abilities and you are not confined to a single one ability if you used trace. It is such a good general utility wall and tank due to its typing and it's role can shift depending on how you need it or whatever creative abilities you can pick up! In fact, an opponent might be pressured not to bring out pokes whose abilities P2 can trace, which can really help you throughout the course of the battle. etc you have a Nidoking problem? P2 comes in and suddenly you have a bolt beam or tribal attacker which can do good damage to the opposing team. Trace Speed boost? Suddenly you get a fast and bulky sweeper good for cleaning weakened teams. Need a status absorber? Trace natural cure from the gazillion grass types around. Or even better magic guard from reuniclus. There are so many roles P2 can fulfill depending on the outcome of the match that it is truly a Jack of all trades pokemon that is deserving of A or B+ at least
Oh and Victory Star gives it 99% accurate toxic. And most guts users are fighting types which P2 has no business dealing with
The thing is that Porygon2 cannot beat the above pokemon with great abilities. Nidoking 2HKOs it with Focus Blast and even Sludge Wave + Focus Blast will suffice with some prior damage. Speed Boost is pretty uncommon and Porygon2 needs teams to be REALLY weakened in order to possibly sweep. Natural Cure is cool ability that sort of solves P2's status vulnerability. However, it is easily beaten by Shaymin and Roserade while failing to anything to Celebi aside of being a setup bait. Porygon2 enjoys neither LO Focus Blast nor being a setup bait for CM Reuniclus so Magic Guard is quite pointless. Relying on the opponent's ability to fill in 'roles' is extremely unreliable and doesn't prove anything P2 is good at. While P2 is bulky, it is pretty easy to wear down thanks the lack of lefties, hazards vulnerability and being an ultimate toxic bait. It is also deadweight against stall teams as it can never do anything to stall mons while being pressurized easily by toxic. Knock Off buff is bad, but not even near the major issue of it. P2 doesn't even counter much relavant things in the metagame too aside from certain weaker unboosted attackers. It may be an annoyance too unprepared opponents but skilled players deal with it pretty easily. It shouldn't even be used on stall since it provides zero team support and minimal synergy to the team. Realistically, P2 only has a place in balance and bulky offense as a defensive backbone. I cannot really see it anywhere above B-.
 
Reiterating what I said on the last page; Honchkrow to at least A. After using it even more lately, it's a really really good hole puncher and win condition. It's one of Hyper Offense's best tools, as it doesn't need to waste turns setting up, it just outright blasts things with its powerful moves that almost nothing can switch into all of them (especially with hazards up), and then gets free boosts for doing so.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-211 (43.8 - 52.2%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 335-398 (82.9 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The 2 premier bulky waters are both 2HKO'd and so is max defense Umbreon, and then once a boost is obtained from the knockout, the destruction often just spirals out of control as pretty much any further walls are 1HKO'd from that point, and a lot of revenge killers are murdered by a +1 Sucker Punch.

Even max defense Porygon2 is guaranteed 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock, thanks to a combination of Brave Bird + Superpower:

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Aggron isn't safe either, since Honchkrow always has moveslot #4 to deal with miscellaneous stuff like him;

0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 166-197 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And against some of the leading offensive threats (without boosts btw, which most of the time he'll have against these things):

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 367-432 (107.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 294-347 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 220-259 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-106006219 (many more where that came from)
 
The thing is that Porygon2 cannot beat the above pokemon with great abilities. Nidoking 2HKOs it with Focus Blast and even Sludge Wave + Focus Blast will suffice with some prior damage. Speed Boost is pretty uncommon and Porygon2 needs teams to be REALLY weakened in order to possibly sweep. Natural Cure is cool ability that sort of solves P2's status vulnerability. However, it is easily beaten by Shaymin and Roserade while failing to anything to Celebi aside of being a setup bait. Porygon2 enjoys neither LO Focus Blast nor being a setup bait for CM Reuniclus so Magic Guard is quite pointless. Relying on the opponent's ability to fill in 'roles' is extremely unreliable and doesn't prove anything P2 is good at. While P2 is bulky, it is pretty easy to wear down thanks the lack of lefties, hazards vulnerability and being an ultimate toxic bait. It is also deadweight against stall teams as it can never do anything to stall mons while being pressurized easily by toxic. Knock Off buff is bad, but not even near the major issue of it. P2 doesn't even counter much relavant things in the metagame too aside from certain weaker unboosted attackers. It may be an annoyance too unprepared opponents but skilled players deal with it pretty easily. It shouldn't even be used on stall since it provides zero team support and minimal synergy to the team. Realistically, P2 only has a place in balance and bulky offense as a defensive backbone. I cannot really see it anywhere above B-.
I agree that Reuniclus was a bad example. I think if you want a good detailed analysis of P2 look at the post I mentioned it is really in depth and after using porygon2 I agree with the jack of all trades notion. I am indeed not the most experienced player regarding Porygon2 so please check out that post.
Oh and how does Shaymin and Roserade beat it I fail to see. And in fact, Porygon2s general typing makes it actually a good addition to stall teams being able to patch up holes and checking the sweepers that often rely on super effective coverage to take down foes
 
The thing is that Porygon2 cannot beat the above pokemon with great abilities. Nidoking 2HKOs it with Focus Blast and even Sludge Wave + Focus Blast will suffice with some prior damage. Speed Boost is pretty uncommon and Porygon2 needs teams to be REALLY weakened in order to possibly sweep. Natural Cure is cool ability that sort of solves P2's status vulnerability. However, it is easily beaten by Shaymin and Roserade while failing to anything to Celebi aside of being a setup bait. Porygon2 enjoys neither LO Focus Blast nor being a setup bait for CM Reuniclus so Magic Guard is quite pointless. Relying on the opponent's ability to fill in 'roles' is extremely unreliable and doesn't prove anything P2 is good at. While P2 is bulky, it is pretty easy to wear down thanks the lack of lefties, hazards vulnerability and being an ultimate toxic bait. It is also deadweight against stall teams as it can never do anything to stall mons while being pressurized easily by toxic. Knock Off buff is bad, but not even near the major issue of it. P2 doesn't even counter much relavant things in the metagame too aside from certain weaker unboosted attackers. It may be an annoyance too unprepared opponents but skilled players deal with it pretty easily. It shouldn't even be used on stall since it provides zero team support and minimal synergy to the team. Realistically, P2 only has a place in balance and bulky offense as a defensive backbone. I cannot really see it anywhere above B-.
The thing is that Porygon2 does not rely on its ability to be effective. It still has the great bulk with Eviolite, reliable recovery and near-perfect BoltBeam coverage. In fact, it doesn't even have to use Trace when it can have Download or Analytic. Trace, however can lead to awesome outcomes like switching into Water Absorb Jellicent, getting Adaptablity/Download from Porygon-Z, getting Flash Fire from Chandelure, Levitate from Flygon, Lightningrod from Manectric and the like.

Porygon2 has been extremely underrated in both the OU and UU viability threads. It is a great tank with decent power at 105 Sp. Attack with excellent coverage and versatility. As long as it is kept away from Knock Off and strong Fighting attacks, it is gold. It's not even death fodder after Eviolite as it still has that solid 85/90/95 bulk. Definitely A- rank at least. B- is FAR too low.
 
On Vaporeon: Ok, I was wrong about vaporeon's reliance on wishtect, vap needs it or else will require a significant amount of team support (such as a second wish passer) to fulfill its role as a bulky water (and that's bad). That being said, even with reliance on wishtect, vap is still one of the only bulky water type phasers in the tier, with it's competition being milotic, empoleon, and swampert. Milotic relies on dragon tail, which I believe to be inferior to roar due to non-perfect accuracy and being blocked by subs, which is one of the main uses of phasing in the first place. Empoleon and swampert don't even have wishtect for recovery, which hampers their ability to phase multiple times throughout a match. There is still haze and clear smog, both of which have numerous viable water type users, but since haze does not cause a switch, the hazer needs to be able to threaten out the setup sweeper or else the sweeper just sets right back up or just smacks the hazer, and while haze's effectiveness is not affected by subs, it doesn't really do anything about it either, making it worthless against the likes of sub kyum and sub punchers.

TL;DR: vap is still one of the only viable water types with phasing capabilities and recovery of some form beyond lefties, which is a significant and valuable niche. Fat wish passes are a bonus. As a cleric (cleric = heal beller right?) it's definitely outclassed.

On Duck-2: The prevalence of manectric alone on volt-turn teams I think is enough to justify trace, let alone all the water absorbers, regenerator slowbros, intimidate mons and quite a few others running around in UU.
 
I really think Alomomola and Cresselia could move up from B- to B. Momo is very bulky:

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 141-166 (26.4 - 31%) -- 9.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- 51.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's also the best WishPasser in the game. Its excellent pivoting abilities thanks to Regenerator and its huge HP stat allow for this. He got a nifty tool this gen with a buffed Knock Off meaning stuff like Crocune/Virizion can't come in to set up without being crippled, so they become easier to deal with for Momo's teammates. Even with Spikes and Stealth Rocks up it's very difficult to wear it down because of Regenerator. It can also use Rocky Helmet effectively to punish U-turn spammers because it does little to no damage to Momo, also it can recover any chip damage with Regenerator.

As for Cresselia, it's a full counter to Nidoking. That alone is a pretty big deal. Also, like Alomomola, it's very bulky:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 250-296 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 222-263 (50 - 59.2%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't really want to switch in, but 1 vs 1 it wins with Thunder Wave, LO/Recoil stalling and Moonblast/Psychic to finish them off. Those are about the toughest hits Cress is ever gonna have to take in UU as well. Everything else it pretty much takes with impunity. It forms a pretty decent core with Florges as well, who can help Cress out with Aromatherapy and those Ghost/Dark/Bug hits as well as special attackers in general (Cress still handles most of them really well with a physically defensive spread).
 
Liarliarpantsonfire

Unlike many other abusers of knock off, mola doesn't really benefit from the buff. Even at 65/95 BP, it's not threatening out anything not named shedninja with this newfound "power". That being said, it has always loved access to knock off and still does simply to annoy walls. Agreed with pretty much everything else you have said though.

As for cress, your post is kinda confusing. You may want to clarify who cress is recoil or LO stalling, who it's trying to twave and who it's trying to finish off, because it really isn't clear. Also, in Darm's case, darm can easily u-turn out on a predicted cress swap in (or if it's LO darm Flare blitz then u-turn out, as LO darm outspeeds easily), which will badly weaken cress for whoever comes in to finish her off. That being said, the weather nerf helped her a lot, as moonlight is now much more reliable then before, but I feel like she'll still struggle with other stallers, esp hippo who doesn't really care about anything cress can do except toxic and sand stream still makes her recovery almost useless, just not for the entire fight (ymmv depending on how good you are with magic coat).

It's restalk set got a nice buff in moonblast though (no immunities, few resists), so there's that.
 
I would have no problems with Cress moving up, it is probably the best dual screener in the Tier due to its sheer natural bulk, decent speed and access to Lunar Dance in an effort to give a sweeper a second life.

MoonBlast was a godsend as well, it makes things like Weavile think twice before switching in while retaining its super effective coverage against fighting types.

Obviously Psychic typing for something with such awesome defensive stats is a bit of a kick in the teeth but if it had a better typing I severely doubt it would be in UU. Still, weaknesses to Dark, Ghost and Bug is especially horrible in this tier with things like Chandelure, Weavile and Heracross. Weakness to U-turn also sucks.

Another thing to note is that like Mew, it is one of the if not the best switch ins to the Nidos who are a massive threat in the metagame. Actually, it probably is better than Mew considering it is immune to Ground thus can switch in a lot easier.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 157-187 (35.3 - 42.1%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That is with a neutral nature and no special defense investment as well.
 
Ok, so I guess I'll throw out this concept, since I feel as though it should really be addressed at some point: I feel strongly that Doublade is undeserving of such a high rank, and while I myself don't have much of a knack for slapping letter grades or whatever on such things, I'm quite certain that it should be significantly lower than it currently is, given what else is surrounding it.

I have at almost no point in my experience in this tier (except sorta-ish during the Hawlucha meta, but barely) felt the inclusion of a Doublade would be of benefit to any given team in proportion to the associative risk, and it has in turn under-performed in essentially every match I've seen it utilized in. I'll reference the Knock Off buff only once, since I can only imagine that must've been spammed beyond belief as an argument against it at one point or another, but it does play a significant role in the tier, given a significant sum of Pokemon it would theoretically seek to check carry it as coverage nowadays (Fighting-types, Escavalier, Weavile if you're that desperate, etc.). A further restriction on its defensive capabilities set by the consequential lack of Leftovers recovery, or reliable recovery on any level aside from Rest, is also highly offsetting for a defensively-oriented 'mon such as Doublade, though its good synergy with most clerics and / or wish passers does offset this issue somewhat.

However, one of the biggest complaints I've had with Doublade as a whole is it's inability to yield proportionate return value for the free turns it obtains on the merit of its defensive capabilities, or if I'm not trying to sound smarter than I actually am, the fact that it's passive af. At least to me, a good defensive Pokemon is defined not only by its ability to take on various and / or relevant threats in their given metagame, but also what utilities they are capable of providing in the free turns gained on the merit of their immediate defensive prowess: Florges / Umbreon can provide support w/aromatherapy or wish, Hippowdon can pHaze or set up SR, Forretress can spin or set up hazards, etc. Even with the most basic bulky Water-type, throwing around Scald can be interpreted as a solid use of free turns, since it can yield solid secondary benefits on a fairly consistent basis, and many, such as Suicune or Slowbro, can extend themselves beyond this by doubling as a CM cleaner. Doublade, on the other hand, does not offer any such option, with the closest thing to it being either Swords Dance or Toxic, neither of which being all that effective, given how poor of a sweeper it is. Even as a spin-blocker, it comes across as highly sub-par, as it ineffectively switches in on almost every relevant one barring Forretress, who isn't even threatened by Doublade, and in turn concedes multiples layers of entry hazards to it in what one might consider its 'best match-up' as a spin-blocker. Furthermore, due to its largely passive nature, it very often can concede a free switch to all too many Pokemon, having to go out on a limb if it aims to catch dangerous 'mons like M-Doomer on the switch, and even then being unable to significantly pressure 'mons like Suicune, M-Blastoise, Hippo, Forretress, M-Manectric, Shaymin, Arcanine, Nidoqueen, etc. etc. to the extent that they can't almost always switch into it comfortably and proceed to do with the match-up as they see fit.

All things considered, I struggle to find a reasonable niche for Doublade, let alone one that sets him as high as A- worthy. The only conceivable one I can make of it is perhaps on a defensive team whose Mega slot has already been occupied (thereby disallowing the option of M-Aggron, who I feel fills many of Doublade's intended roles in an outright superior fashion) that supports not only cleric / wish support, but a very strong defensive core to mitigate Doublade's passive nature (so, like, M-Ampharos stall or something?). Regardless, I'd like to get some input on the matter, if it's all the same.
 
I definitely agree with you. I feel like Doublade is one of those Pokemon that no one wants to say anything about because no one has very much experience with it, allowing Doublade to just hang around in A- tier when it probably deserves less. I would suggest moving it down to B, or even B-.
 
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