Other Stall

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Theorymoning counters rarely work in practice, and application is where it counts, and I also feel that lacking a failsafe (can be a win condition, but mainly just a back up plan) can be detrimental to the success of a team.
I think the key part of theorymoning is to develop a stall team that can cover all your key bases. Unlike other teams which can sometimes afford to lose one or two Pokemon, a stall team needs outs and changes that it can use. Is there a mathematical solution where it is inherently possible to cover all situations? Probably not. Deriving a team which covers every and all possibilities seems a bit extreme. But I suspect the emphasis on playing the theory card initially is to ensure that a key threat won't punch 2+ KOs every game.

That's where practice (and as I put it, putting mileage on your team) comes into play. There's legitimately no way in my mind that you will have accounted for everything and anything against your team. The next step is to figure out what unknowns you missed by practice. Theorymon relies heavily on assuming something in an inherently semi-structured environment. This fine tuning will come through practice. Maybe (for example) Venusaur isn't the best option for your team. Maybe [xyz] comes up more often than not and your coverage of Pokemon like [xyz] isn't reliable because of it. Or maybe combination [abc] and [xyz] is more common. There are difficult to account for individually and in the massive pile of users nearly impossible to solve. It's not not impossible...but there's far too many permutations for any one person to really consider. It's the same way Chess isn't mathematically impossible to solve but there are so many options that research instead has been on developing strategies for the game that is forming in front of them.

Actually, I quite enjoy the comparison of Stall to quantification of Chess. You go in packing stratagem and set plays. Once you're there you determine on the fly which ones will work, which ones you prepared for naught, and adjust your movements accordingly. You play cool and patient; pick off the targets as you manipulate the field and force them into no win situations by forcing key sacrifices.

I (personally) don't frequent the concept of win conditions for my own teams. The design typically runs down to a mathematical "you can't get around [x]" and a mutual agreement of forfeit or we run down a few more turns as I nickle and dime their HP to 0 by Burn, Leech Seed, Toxic, and damage from decent attacks...Heatran Lava Plumes for example). The ability to shift gears on a dime sometimes eats up way more room than I'm comfortable giving...though some Pokemon (Clefable, Suicune) do have that nice ability though. Personally I'm tempted to try a stall team with that ability once Mega Latias comes out.
 
Personally, I think theorymonning is by far the more important step in building stall... I mentioned in my more recent team that it took me 2 and a half months to put that team together by simply theorymonning before I started testing, and the only changes I made in tests were ridiculously small (A nature change, A mirror coat over toxic, counter over brave bird) until I switched out Gyarados to give me a different rocker. Building the team, I had 99% of what I wanted covered... covered. It took me a few days, maybe a week most, to adjust it to what it is.

Theorymonning is important in all stall teams to some extent. Otherwise you wouldn't test things like P2, Assault Vest Tornadus-T, Resttalk Mawile (I saw it somewhere... might've been in this thread), Bulky Zard-X (Omg that was a gift...) and even Mega Venusaur... who would've taken longer to discover, as it was really looked down upon at the beginning of the generation. While there isn't a 100% right way, I tend to think theorymonning is a huge basis for the beginnings of all stall teams.

Thinking on that battling project for stall, I want to write up a quick outline on battling itself.

A. Knowing your opponent's team.
a. Picking out Leads
b. Assigning Preliminary Counters
c. Guessing Opponent's leads, Hazard setters and other important pokes.

A. Early Game Risk-Reward
a. You picked a bad lead. What now?
b. You picked a good lead. How best to force the advantage.
B. Priorities
a. Hazard Setting
b. Scouting actual sets
*Find hazard setters
*Surprise setup sweepers (early and late)

A. What determines "Mid Game"?
a. Between Early and Mid
b. Between Mid and End
B. Prediction in Mid Game
a. The Changes taken from Early game
C. Pressuring Key Targets
a. Opponent's Key Target types
*Clerics, Hazard Setters, Clearers, Sweepers
b. Priority in which to target them?
*Find whichever one you have more counters for
c. Methods of Pressure
D. Quick! Cleric Work
a. How best to play a cleric in an environment unhealthy for your cleric
b. How best to play a cleric in environment unhealthy for your intended patient
E. Hazard Clearer constantly pressured by setter or vice versa
a. How to keep hazards off your field and on your opponent's.

A. Prediction in the End Game
a. When down
b. When even
B. Random Set Caught Me Offguard
a. Healing up
b. Improvised Counters
c. Readjusting Win Conditions and Targets
C. Finding Your Endgame
a. What is an "Endgame"
b. Finishing off crucial targets
c. Jumping Patterns
d. Healing up the Wall

1. Pressuring an opponent with stall
2. Stall vs VoltTurn

a. How to gain upper hand
b. Can you pressure when lacking switch initiative?
3. Vs Threats to the Team
a. Finding Checks
b. Playing for a Misplay
c. Decision Making


Any additional ideas/adjustments?
 
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Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
Does anyone have tech for the stall mirror? When you build stall how do you plan to handle other very defensive teams?

Also what is everyone using as an aegislash counter? Special defense heatran does not even really work. Even if you have wish pass chansey.

Some people use special defense hippowdon. But this is pretty sketchy imo. In a long game shadowball is eventually gonna get a drop. Also aegislash might have toxic.
 
I played a bunch of mirror matches in this gen, and I do get to play a lot of stall v stall (it is always fun to play those, even if they do take forever and a half).

There are a few secrets for stall v stall, and it's mainly clearing one of the following;
Hazard setter
Hazard Clearer
Cleric.

Find out what you have the most checks/counters to (and by this I mean stuff that can apply offensive pressure, like a chesnaught to a blissey/aegislash) and start to lure it out over hazards and keep forcing it to switch away before it can recover. Always take the low hanging fruit of those three because even disabling that will give you a way to keep your hazards up/stop hazards coming your way/stop cleric healing.

Obv. Taunt/Mirror Coat (For toxic and shit)/WW on Wishes... All that exists, but it isn't really a be all/end all. You have to PLAY to get them out. If they don't have a status absorber, make them burn those heal bells. If they have a key pokemon that needs direct cleric support, pressure it through the cleric and never let it come in. Having a sense of purpose will win you the game.

As far as I know, Aegislash is being stopped by Mandi, Chesnaught, Spdef Venu w/EQ, Chansey, Hippo, Spdef Gliscor (my own, to be honest, but it works) and a few other things checking it... Heatran, Garchomp... that sort of thing.
 
I think there's some things I'd add to your little guide there Ajwf.

Here's what I had after copying yours. I've noticed a lot of my additions are in the mental aspect of the game (which is what I revel commonly utilize)

A. Know reaction to your team.
a. Recognize identified leads
b. Recognize team identify to the unfamiliar
B. Knowing your opponent's team.
a. Picking out leads
a.1. Recognize likelihood of counterpicking
a.2. The art of unpredictability
b. Assigning preliminary counters
c. Guessing Opponent's leads, Hazard setters and other important pokes.
d. Develop preliminary switching cycles.


A. Early Game Risk-Reward
a. You picked a bad lead. What now?
b. You picked a good lead. How best to force the advantage.
B. Priorities
a. Hazard Setting
b. Scouting actual sets
*Find hazard setters
*Surprise setup sweepers (early and late)
C. Reading Habits
a. Learn your opponent's mentality
b. Identify flaws in mindset


A. What determines "Mid Game"?
a. Between Early and Mid
b. Between Mid and End
B. Prediction in Mid Game
a. The Changes taken from Early game
C. Pressuring Key Targets
a. Opponent's Key Target types
*Clerics, Hazard Setters, Clearers, Sweepers
b. Priority in which to target them?
*Find whichever one you have more counters for
c. Methods of Pressure
D. Swapping Out
a. When do I retreat?
b. Predicting behaviour
c. Who comes in?
d. Taking advantage of empty turns
e. When to sacrifice
E. Quick! Cleric Work
a. How best to play a cleric in an environment unhealthy for your cleric
b. How best to play a cleric in environment unhealthy for your intended patient
F. Hazard Clearer constantly pressured by setter or vice versa
a. How to keep hazards off your field and on your opponent's.


A. Prediction in the End Game
a. When down
b. When even
B. Random Set Caught Me Offguard
a. Healing up
b. Improvised Counters
c. Readjusting Win Conditions and Targets
C. Finding Your Endgame
a. What is an "Endgame"
b. Finishing off crucial targets
c. Jumping Patterns
d. Healing up the Wall


1. Pressuring an opponent with stall
2. Stall vs VoltTurn

a. How to gain upper hand
b. Can you pressure when lacking switch initiative?
3. Vs Threats to the Team
a. Finding Checks
b. Playing for a Misplay
c. Decision Making
 
Does anyone have tech for the stall mirror? When you build stall how do you plan to handle other very defensive teams?

Also what is everyone using as an aegislash counter? Special defense heatran does not even really work. Even if you have wish pass chansey.

Some people use special defense hippowdon. But this is pretty sketchy imo. In a long game shadowball is eventually gonna get a drop. Also aegislash might have toxic.
Stall mirror matches are pretty interesting. Like AJ said, you have to wear down one of their crucial cogs to the point that you can start to capitalise on that weakness; as I mentioned earlier, I like using M-Mawile in conjunction with hazard stacking, because it puts absurd amounts of pressure on teams using Latias / Mandibuzz as their Defogger, and can lure Skarmory with a combination of Knock Off and Focus Punch; then you just win the game on the back of your hazard advantage. Another easy stallbreaker to use and fit onto a stall team is Taunt Tran with Toxic/WoW, which essentially just spreads status to everything and can Taunt safely against the only common Clerics. You really shouldn't find yourself having to use a team which has no go-to plan against stall.

Aegislash counters are actually pretty difficult for stall, doubly so because of the ease with which it can switch in on the likes of Chansey and Clefable. Chansey can kinda stall out Leftovers variants, but LO Mixed versions get the 2HKO with Sacred Sword. In general, Mandibuzz and Chesnaught are your go-to's, but most stall mons can be viable checks if you invest in special defense. Life Orb makes a lot of these pretty shaky, but at the same time it makes it possible to simply stall Aegi out by spamming recovery.
 
Hey guys, how do you suggest playing a stall team that abuses taunt? I ended up playing one recently and I couldn't do much because 4 of the other guys mons had taunt.
 
I've been playing around with stall, and I had an idea. I'm too lazy to search through the thread, but has anybody considered stall mega-garchomp? 108/115/95 is pretty awesome mixed bulk, and it can still hit like a truck even when uninvested. He does lack recovery outside of rest and can't carry a chesto berry, but with wish support I think it could be a viable option with a lot of surprise factor to it.
 
I think utilizing MegaGarchomp on a stall team is do-able, but it's hard to suggest a good set and EV spread. I think you need to put M-Chomp in slot number 1 and think very carefully about how much speed (if any) you will run. That's really the most difficult question to answer, because it's hard to give up potentially revenge killing base 100s as base form if you don't run max speed (and countering Excadrill as Mega). But maybe the only thing you ever need to outspeed is Ice Punch Mega Tyranitars anyway? That said, MegaChomp is indeed pretty tanky as hell, almost the definition of tank, and I ran into a RestTalk variant once that took me forever to kill. I would encourage you to try out a logical M-Garchomp set and tell us how it is, I'm testing other megas on my teams currently and M-Chomp requires quite a lot of pre-planning to get it on a good team.
 
The only logical M-Garchomp set on stall imo is the usual mixed stallbreaker, though possibly with bulk investment over speed to better handle the likes of SD Scizor. It's basically completely outclassed in the generic bulky Ground defensive role by Hippo / Lando-T / Quagsire, but what it can do is provide offensive momentum against bulkier teams in general, as well as against threats like Heatran which are typically tough to play against for stall. I'd suggest building a team around that capability (in fact, I was planning on making a M-Chomp semistall anyway so I'll try it out today and post back if I find a successful build).
 
Stall is
Hey everyone. First of all, let say thanks a bunch for posting on this thread as it has helped me tremendously in creating my own stall team, which has miraculously peaked at #2 on the main ladder. I've read a good portion of this thread, but I was wondering if you guys have discussed Gothitelle at all? She (he?) really really destroys my entire team, and honestly I have no idea what to do against it except read the opponent's mind and make 100% perfect predictions early-game. So yeah, any help you guys have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
I was the guy who beat you 4-5 times with the Goth semi-stall. The issue with Full-Stall is pretty similar to the issue with BP. If your opponent knows you're bringing it, it's incredibly easy to counter-team and just wipe the floor with you, regardless of how well you play. After a ton of success with stall in BW2 I've really moved away from playing full-stall this gen because other people are playing it. When the meta shifts to prepare with playstyles with hard counters (BP/Full-Stall/Drag-Mag/Etc) you have to adapt too. All of my stall teams at this point are a 4 poke core + 2 scary things that can switch into what the core doesnt like to deal with and break holes in the opposing team.

While I was disagreeing with people saying full-stall was dead in BW2, I think it's actually dead now.
 
I'd agree with that assumption to a point... But it depends wildly on your definition of full stall... if it's toxic+spikes, yes that style is dead and gone. But I've seen your 5th gen stall teams, and while they did rely on hazard damage, they also had some core parts of stall this generation, which is decent coverage attacks. You can't win a game by sitting on your ass and hoping the opponent can't get rid of hazards, sure. But my definition of full stall is very loosely six defensive pokes so I've seen stall become much more viable by that definition.

It could also be that stall this generation by anyone not devoted enough to learn the style is basically MVenu and Chansey + 5... 4 months outdated, to be honest.
 
Power creep is real, and while we don't have to worry about walling Growth Chlorophyll venusaur or Drought darmanitan nuke or drizzle specs keldeo anymore, those losses on the offensive side were compensated with charizard, mawile, greninja, kangaskan, lucario, talonflame, etc. Ghost and dark became more powerful, and while some special attacks were nerfed a little bit, Landorus and Volcarona wasn't nerfed, and there wasn't any nerf to superpower and earthquake lol. Stall didn't really get anything like a mega-skarmory or mega-hippowdon (though I desperately await mega-latias). Venusaur and Aggron are good tries, MegaScizor is VERY good, but it's probably better to use an offensively skewed mega for the time being until mega-weezing comes out because too many pokemon out there carry flying/fire/ground/fighting coverage. Defog goes both ways and is of course useful for stall.

I think spikes is still very viable. It's incredibly helpful for wearing down conkeldurr, bisharp, aegislash, keldeo, chansey, etc. But it's an awful costly moveslot because skarmory and chestnaught and ferrothorn and deoxys would all love to have a different move. I maintain using it on my teams, it's usually pokemon number 2 (pokemon 1 is a mega), perhaps out of tradition but also because I think it really is just a fkin awesome move when used correctly. It applies a certain amount of pressure that will buy me a free turn later on when the opponent is literally forced to defog to stay in the game.

I pretty much always use skarmory anyway, for pinsir, so brave bird / spikes / roost / whirlwind works fine. But I also like Chestnaught because it usually spikes for free against aegislash, venusaur, etc. In order to break the mold a little bit I've also been trying out spikes greninja, klefki, and scolipede. I like all of them. I may try diggersby in the future, for that semi-stall feel (and the ghost immunity)
 
The good thing is that Spikes has a reasonably low opportunity cost on users like Skarmory and Ferrothorn for stall teams. Skarmory could use Taunt/Defog, but doesn't need it, and Ferro could use something else like Protect to make Leech Seed stalling better and to help with scouting, but doesn't need it either. Both could use Stealth Rock instead of it too, but SR has a wide distribution anyway and there's almost always another member on a stall team like Heatran etc which can use it instead. I find Spike setting to still be a reasonable venture in some games, especially since Ferrothorn can pressure a lot of spinners and defoggers (Latias, Excadrill, etc) with moves like Gyro Ball and Power Whip, or just wear them down with Leech Seed and force them out again anyway. Even if they do get spun or fogged away later on, when you tally up the damage the Spikes have done over that duration to their grounded threats, it often turns out as being worth it, and can really help against annoying things like Keldeo who needs as much chip damage as it can get.
 
What about using bisharp in a semi stall team along with spikes in order to punish defog? A cool team I have seen more than once in the top 10 of the ladder is basically a traditional stall core (Heatran, chansey, MVenu, skarmory with spikes) plus calm mind keldeo and bisharp. Skarm and heatran can lay spikes more than once in the match, and whenever the oponent uses defog bisharp will leave a dent on something. Calm mind keldeo is just a ver good poke that provides a bisharp counter (which otherwise annoys this team) and can set up and clean up late game once talonflame is gone and the stall core has weakened all the other pokemon.

I tried the team and really liked it. The only thing I dislike about it is that it has absolutely no hazards removal, so if your oponent gets rocks + spikes up you will be in trouble, but nowdays spikes are usually only used by Deo-D + Sharp teams, and lead bisharp usually prevents deo from doing that (superpower versions will fuck you up however) (Edit: the replays are from the guy at No 6 in the ladder, not me)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-103659137
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102495206
He gets SR and a couple of spikes layers on his side at the beggining, still wins (but he would have lost if it wasnt for the paralysis hax at the end and his oponent way overpredicting on garchomp vs heatran): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-103319859
Against BP: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-103657492
 
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I agree with RS on his points... that game was haxy as shit right towards the end and basically came down to you making otherwise terrible plays with heatran that paid off... No offense, but had you played that properly, RS would've had you beat.

I think the issue there is with the team being so ridiculously standard that people have simple breaks for it, kind of like mixed ape in gen 4... Lando destroys VenuTran and there are a number of known killers to SkarmBliss... Even Keldeo + Bisharp is seen so commonly together, people are prepared for it... Yes, all of them are proven, but almost all teams have prepared for them in some way shape or form.

Bisharp as itself has one crucial issue with semi-stall: It's a ridiculously slow sweeper. Maybe if your stall part assisted that with sticky web/Thunder wave, this wouldn't be an issue but you have to utilize the stall core to set up your sweep in more ways than just passively damaging.
 
Still, VenuTran + SkarmBliss can be very hard to break for a team that is not specifically prepared against it. No single pokemon (other than maybe Mmawile) comes close to doing that alone. Chansey can wall lando unless is the calm mind + focus blast version, and both keldeo and bisharp can revange kill him with scald/sucker punch. After trying this team, I would say that so far the only pokemon that genuinely presents a huge difficulty by itself is mega medicham, since psychich + fightning hit super effective on 5 out of 6 team members.

You are right that it is not particulary difficult to counter this team if one focuses on it. However, there is always the issue that focusing on countering one strategy usually makes you weaker against the other ones, so is not like most teams can prepare for it without becoming weak to another popular kind of team. Good luck making a team that does well against traditional stall AND gimmicky stall with creative stuff like alomola AND HO Deo-sharp teams AND batton pass teams AND Charizard Y teams AND teams with random stuff that can sweep you if you are unprepared for them such as belly drum azumarill or manaphy.
 
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Still, VenuTran + SkarmBliss can be very hard to break for a team that is not specifically prepared against it. No single pokemon (other than maybe Mmawile) comes close to doing that alone.
As a matter of fact, there happens to be one that does: Manaphy. Not only that, but it's designed to beat the entire 6 member full-stall archetype which further includes Quagsire and a multitude of other stallers.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Psychic
- Rain Dance

The secret to this sets success is combining the best aspects of Manaphy's 2 other main sets; the offensive Tail Glow set with Surf, Ice Beam and Psychic/Energy Ball, and the CM set with Scald, Rain Dance and Rest. The problem with the offensive set is that even at +6, Manaphy cannot 2HKO Chansey with Surf, and is easily Toxic stalled to death. Chansey simply switches in as Manaphy boosts to +3, uses Toxic as it boosts to +6, then spams Softboiled until Manny kicks the bucket. However, in the case of this set, Chansey becomes completely helpless: Manaphy boosts to +3 as Chansey switches in, boosts to +6 as it gets hit by Toxic, and then comes the game-ending surprise; Manaphy uses Rain Dance, curing itself of poison and boosting the power of its surf by a further 50%, which Chansey cannot handle:

+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 8 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 412-486 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Having over 400 HP in combination with Leftovers means that Seismic Toss is also essentially helpless:

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Manaphy: 100-100 (24.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain serves another very important purpose: it bypasses the Unaware ability, allowing it to 2HKO Quagsire and Clefable:

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire in Rain: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable in Rain: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain can be especially annoying for Clefable, who now gets the recovery granted by Moonlight cut in half if it's using that instead of the Wish + Protect combination (which it usually does now to free up space for other moves like Heal Bell) which means that even if it carries Calm Mind, Manaphy still checks it while Rain is up. Scald could theoretically be used over Surf as well, to further ruin Clefables day if you land a burn.

Then comes Mega Venusaur. If physically defensive Venusaur switches in as Manaphy uses Tail Glow, kiss it goodbye:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 382-450 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it's specially defensive, it still has a 1 in 3 chance of being 1HKO'd after Stealth Rock:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Any prior damage at all will be doom for Venu, but in any case Manaphy's bulk investment means that Megasaur can barely even 2HKO, and will simply die to another Psychic straight after regardless:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory and Heatran need no explanation.

After setting up and beating the first wall, the rest of the core is obviously outright swept, and in your case even with Bisharp and Keldeo, both are 1HKO'd by Surf and Psychic respectively, and Manny will take little from any of Keldeo's or Bisharp's unboosted moves, basically extinguishing any hopes of a revenge kill. In essence, one shouldn't get too cocky when using VenuTran and SkarmBliss, they're not as impenetrable as they are often made out to be!
 
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As a matter of fact, there happens to be one that does: Manaphy. Not only that, but it's designed to beat the entire 6 member full-stall archetype which further includes Quagsire and a multitude of other stallers.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Psychic
- Rain Dance

The secret to this sets success is combining the best aspects of Manaphy's 2 other main sets; the offensive Tail Glow set with Surf, Ice Beam and Psychic/Energy Ball, and the CM set with Scald, Rain Dance and Rest. The problem with the offensive set is that even at +6, Manaphy cannot 2HKO Chansey with Surf, and is easily Toxic stalled to death. Chansey simply switches in as Manaphy boosts to +3, uses Toxic as it boosts to +6, then spams Softboiled until Manny kicks the bucket. However, in the case of this set, Chansey becomes completely helpless: Manaphy boosts to +3 as Chansey switches in, boosts to +6 as it gets hit by Toxic, and then comes the game-ending surprise; Manaphy uses Rain Dance, curing itself of poison and boosting the power of its surf by a further 50%, which Chansey cannot handle:

+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 8 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 412-486 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Having over 400 HP in combination with Leftovers means that Seismic Toss is also essentially helpless:

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Manaphy: 100-100 (24.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain serves another very important purpose: it bypasses the Unaware ability, allowing it to 2HKO Quagsire and Clefable:

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire in Rain: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable in Rain: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Rain can be especially annoying for Clefable, who now gets the recovery granted by Moonlight cut in half if it's using that instead of the Wish + Protect combination (which it usually does now to free up space for other moves like Heal Bell) which means that even if it carries Calm Mind, Manaphy still checks it while Rain is up. Scald could theoretically be used over Surf as well, to further ruin Clefables day if you land a burn.

Then comes Mega Venusaur. If physically defensive Venusaur switches in as Manaphy uses Tail Glow, kiss it goodbye:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 382-450 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If it's specially defensive, it still has a 1 in 3 chance of being 1HKO'd after Stealth Rock:

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Any prior damage at all will be doom for Venu, but in any case Manaphy's bulk investment means that Megasaur can barely even 2HKO, and will simply die to another Psychic straight after regardless:

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory and Heatran need no explanation.

After setting up and beating the first wall, the rest of the core is obviously outright swept, and in your case even with Bisharp and Keldeo, both are 1HKO'd by Surf and Psychic respectively, and Manny will take little from any of Keldeo's or Bisharp's unboosted moves, basically extinguishing any hopes of a revenge kill. In essence, one shouldn't get too cocky when using VenuTran and SkarmBliss, they're not as impenetrable as they are often made out to be!
Nobody uses that set... I've seen people use max HP Manaphy when Chansey was still UU on Pokemon Online though. It could use it as setup fodder with 101 Substitutes and Tail Glow. But aside from complete gimmicks like your set VenuTran is a very difficult core to break for common teams. Not impossible ofcourse so if that was your point I guess you got it across, but then again not a single core is impossible to break so your point is kinda moot.

It does once again show however that Stall teams should bring some form of offense as to not get swept because you have nothing that can outspeed the opposing setup sweeper... The RMT team I posted a while ago was basically SkarmBliss + VenuTran, Defog Mandibuzz and a scarfed Garchomp. Turned out that Garchomp was often the most valuable member, taking out unsuspecting Zard-X after the Dragon Dance plenty of times... (nobody expects scarf on Garchomp when facing a Stall team). It can also clean up late game, block Volt-Turn and what not... It seems like a lot of Stall players focus too much on making obvious switches, but even worse, always picking the obvious move. Stall has the luxury that predictions and double switches often involve minimal risk, because the opponent expects you to play really obvious. I've seen too many times that Stall players lose because they let their opponent play around them and choose to never predict... It can save you a lot of time and win you a lot of games to play more risky. Also Sleep Powder should be standard on Mega Venusaur, the pressure it takes away for its team is incredibly valuable... You're essentially playing a battle with 6 vs 5 pokemon, which any decent Stall player should never lose. It doesn't matter what pokemon goes to sleep either. Stall teams can easily capitalize on the absence of the opponents SR user, or their cleric or late game sweeper... Stall matches should not take long, in fact the faster they end the better for the Stall user. The longer you let the battle drag out the more opportunities you're giving away to let them break your stall core... Your priority as a Stall user should be to take out one pokemon on the other team asap. The less threats they have available, the easier it becomes for you to completely wall the rest of their team (which is basically the same thing as victory as they can't do anything to you). Hazards/Status etc. are tools you can use to achieve this, but they're not the focus of a Stall team. The focus is basically the same as any other team: take out the opposing team one by one. The win condition near the end of the game is just different. HO will attempt to sweep late game to win, while Stall wins by completely walling/countering the opponents remaining team.

At least that's my view on it.
 
Nobody uses that set... I've seen people use max HP Manaphy when Chansey was still UU on Pokemon Online though. It could use it as setup fodder with 101 Substitutes and Tail Glow. But aside from complete gimmicks like your set VenuTran is a very difficult core to break for common teams. Not impossible ofcourse so if that was your point I guess you got it across, but then again not a single core is impossible to break so your point is kinda moot.
This set isn't a gimmick, since as was just shown, it gives stall a very rough time and simultaneously dismantles the two most popular stall cores, so if it's a gimmick, then it's a pretty damn good one. And since it can get to +3 in one turn and has decent bulk, it's also useful against offense as well. Rather, the standard offensive Tail Glow set has pretty much become a gimmick, which is why it recently dropped a sub-rank in the viability rankings because that set is too slow and not bulky enough to trouble offense, and isn't strong enough to muscle past stall walls, so essentially, it's often next to useless. That's precisely why it has to change, and this is one such way in which it can change to become more useful. If it catches on, stall and/or teams relying on VenuTran + SkarmBliss are going to have to include a member who can deal with it, or face getting swept every time because of it. I was pointing out how an A rank pokemon can easily be used to bulldoze his whole team, something which he was basically saying either wasn't possible or required a lot of team dedication (this doesn't, just a single pokemon with a certain moveset is more than enough to possibly 6-0) and it doesn't really compromise the user's matchups against other teams either, it's still a bulky hard-hitter which can manage a kill or two against any team.

(56k could also vouch for the sets effectiveness too, he endured a little steamrolling incident in a game against me where I was using it).
 
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Yeah, I hadn't considered rain dance on manaphy. Thats a very cool anti-stall pokemon. Stall teams would indeed have to include something against it if it becomes popular.

When I said no pokemon could dismantle that combination on its own, I was thinking about common OU stuff. If we go to gimmicky sets, I guess mega absol with super power, psycho cut and fireblast could also do well against stall, but who uses that.

Also Sleep Powder should be standard on Mega Venusaur, the pressure it takes away for its team is incredibly valuable... You're essentially playing a battle with 6 vs 5 pokemon, which any decent Stall player should never lose
True but at the same time, the fact that stall has less offensive pressure means the oponent has more chances to just send his sleeping pokemon against something that doesn't threaten it much and try to waste the sleeping turns. If the sleep mechanics were just like last gen you would be totally right, but MegaVenu has enough 4MMS already.

On the same note, has anyone tried amoongus? It gets spore, stun spore, toxic, foul play to surprise physical set up sweepers and it could even use clear smog to fuck with BP teams. Regenerator is an awesome ability as well. It could make part of an interesting regenerator core with alomomola since he can switch into electric and grass moves that kill her while Alomomola takes the fire moves thrown at him.
 
True but at the same time, the fact that stall has less offensive pressure means the oponent has more chances to just send his sleeping pokemon against something that doesn't threaten it much and try to waste the sleeping turns. If the sleep mechanics were just like last gen you would be totally right, but MegaVenu has enough 4MMS already.

On the same note, has anyone tried amoongus? It gets spore, stun spore, toxic, foul play to surprise physical set up sweepers and it could even use clear smog to fuck with BP teams. Regenerator is an awesome ability as well. It could make part of an interesting regenerator core with alomomola since he can switch into electric and grass moves that kill her while Alomomola takes the fire moves thrown at him.
If your opponent tries to burn Sleep turns you can use those turns to wear the sleeping pokemon down, setup SR if you haven't already or just phaze the opponent around... anyway it's a win-win for Mega Venusaur and its team. Few people are going to purposely stay in with a sleeping pokemon against something that can setup a lot of entry hazards just to wake up (after which Venu just puts something else to sleep later). Also don't underestimate the offensive pressure of Stall... even Seismic Toss coming from Chansey can be enough to wear down pokemon over time, scoring a 3HKO after Rocks on the majority of pokes. If you don't have recovery that adds up quickly.

As for Amoonguss, it was pretty popular on Sand Stall last gen in combination with Slowbro, but now it is entirely outclassed by Mega Venusaur, even with Regenerator. Amoonguss is comparatively a lot weaker and more passive. It sponges hits, has Spore and that's it literally. Its weaknesses to Fire and Ice that Mega Venusaur doesn't have play a really big role in this as well. In other words, don't use it in OU.
 
Focusing on that Stall Battling Outline, I wanted to write up a practice intro (Of course, subject to adjustment)... Also, LLPF, stall games should last as long as you feel comfortable making predictions. For example, TFL will play games as long as possible because he's insane enough to make predictions/plays out to however long it takes and he feels his teams will win any game of attrition. The sweet spot of my teams generally is about 80 turns... At 80 turns, I feel for about 40 turns I can completely trash my opponent with whatever I've scouted. I feel that gaining all the information needed to make the plays is what's needed before you start, and by turn 80 I know without a doubt I will know everything I need to know.

Intro:

For generations, stall has been a controversial play style. Disliked by many as "Boring" and "Easy", stall doesn't exactly have a fantastic reputation. The stall matches require more patience than is often present in the fast-paced hyper offense Wi-Fi world and the length of a match can lure beginners into making repetitive switches that eventually cost them the game. But, like any developed play style, there is a difference between beginners and those who have an understanding of the play style. This is not a beginner's guide to playing stall, but a fantastic guide has been written by (I know they have articles, can't find the one I was looking for right now... link later w/credits to author). Instead, the intent of this guide is not only to educate people on how to become better at the play style but to also give insight to the amount of knowledge high levels of stall play require. In this guide, we'll discuss some of the advanced tactics and thought processes used by some higher-level stall players in all parts of the match. Main topics of interest will be the differences in play between the stages of a battle as well as the prediction factors used to prevent developing patterns. References will be gathered from people knowledgeable in the play style and the occasional public opinion will be cited either by polls or a statement summing up the general concensus. Video references may be used to reinforce a point or provide a visual learning element.

End intro.

References from players will be referenced in a format of (Player, Link to information [if on Smogon] or reference to chatroom). For example, if I were to quote TFL stating that he tortures people through stall games, I would cite it like this (TFL , Showdown). I'd wish to continue using a format SIMILAR but much looser to an MLA format as it is largely international and can be easily understood... Writing on a forum board also gives the application of links easy referencing ELIMINATING the need for actual work cited pages. Each section should be ended with:

Written by (Author's Forum name) with contributions by (Any significant editor contributors)

... do not use those you cite sources from unless you didn't cite them for some reason. Of course, as this is largely a made-up version, it is subject to change. If you no longer have the logs for the link or can't find the information, you can contact them to verify instead and link the verification if applicable. I will be abusing TFL's opinion, as well as Yuttt SansNickel and ShootingStarmie if they want to contribute as both are pretty damn knowledgeable (Hell, SS made this thread). Other suggestions of people who don't frequent the thread are always welcome... I'm not tagging anyone who has posted in the last few pages... but Calm_Mind_Latias if you're still around and want to participate... There are some other people in this thread I might go tag eventually but not sure if they want to be bothered.

Of course, the intro and the citation style are all up for debate. If you wish to work on a section and go with it, go ahead. Post the section you wish to work with and some ideas you'd like to try. Otherwise, I might end up slowly writing/rewriting this myself. I know the intro needs work, but introductions are always best just to have groundwork before revision. I have to go to class now anyways.
 
On another note, I haven't seen a single Stall Team in the low or mid-rank sections of the ladder in ages. I've been playing on a few alts lately so I haven't been up the high end for a while, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed. Stall isn't exactly a popular playstyle outside of the higher ranks, sure, but not seeing any at all is a bit odd imo, I remember for quite a while after the suspect test where Genesect and Lucarionite were banned, stall teams were rearing their heads all over the place, and you actually had to account for them quite a lot when making a team. Seems to be becoming a fairly rare playstyle now, even if it is a decent one, with only a small number of players either having the interest or capacity to use it.
 
On another note, I haven't seen a single Stall Team in the low or mid-rank sections of the ladder in ages. I've been playing on a few alts lately so I haven't been up the high end for a while, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed. Stall isn't exactly a popular playstyle outside of the higher ranks, sure, but not seeing any at all is a bit odd imo, I remember for quite a while after the suspect test where Genesect and Lucarionite were banned, stall teams were rearing their heads all over the place, and you actually had to account for them quite a lot when making a team. Seems to be becoming a fairly rare playstyle now, even if it is a decent one, with only a small number of players either having the interest or capacity to use it.
That is because on the lower ladder people use unpredictable shit like specs Medicham and energy ball Jellicent which can cost you the match if you predict wrong. Players on the higher ladder have more predictable sets thus making stall easier.
 
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