Ubers Arceus-Dragon [QC: 3/3] [GP:2/2]

[malefic]

GP: 2/2 (Calm Pokemaster / Minus)
QC: 3/3 (Fireburn / Melee Mewtwo / Sweep)

drag swag

Overview
########

Although its viability has somewhat diminished, Dragon Arceus retains great all-round base stats and a unique mono-Dragon typing; this gives it neutrality to most other types and lets it handle to a degree an offensive behemoth in Kyogre, which has notoriously few checks. For what it is worth, Dragon Arceus still remains a viable Calm Mind user and can use a Swords Dance set to good effect. Unfortunately, Fairy-types are truly its undoing, impairing its offensive potency greatly. Swords Dance Dragon Arceus has to rely on sub-optimal coverage moves if it is to overcome them, while the Calm Mind set cannot do so at all. Also, its Dragon typing ironically leaves Dragon Arceus vulnerable to other Dragon-types such as Palkia, which it can beat one-on-one but cannot switch in on, and Zekrom, a common revenge killer. Still, with proper team support, these flaws are very much surmountable, so do not let them detract from Dragon Arceus's value as a solid Arceus forme and potent offensive threat.

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Fire Blast
item: Draco Plate
evs: 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Calm Mind boosts Dragon Arceus's Special Attack and Special Defense by one stage each, which is exceedingly important if it is to pull off a late-game sweep. Judgment is the obligatory STAB move, hitting most targets for neutral damage. Recover aids Dragon Arceus in its role as a pivot, keeping it healthy and letting it switch in numerous times throughout the match. Will-O-Wisp is the preferred move in the last slot, crippling troublesome bulky Pokemon such as Steel-types that resist Dragon Arceus's STAB Judgment; in conjunction with Calm Mind and mono-Dragon typing, it can make Dragon Arceus very difficult to break with both physical and special attacks. Alternatively, Fire Blast roasts all Steel-types barring Heatran. Finally, Refresh can rid Dragon Arceus of status, letting it hold its own in Calm Mind wars with other Arceus formes using Will-O-Wisp and allowing it to set up on Pokemon like Blissey that would wall it otherwise. Note that the one major drawback to using Refresh is that it leaves Dragon Arceus completely helpless against Fairy-types.

Set Details
========

With 176 Speed EVs with a Timid nature, Dragon Arceus outspeeds everything up to Timid Mega Gengar (before the latter Mega Evolves), allowing it to hit first with Judgment. 252 EVs are placed in HP and the remaining 80 EVs in Special Defense so Dragon Arceus can make the best of its excellent natural bulk. The Special Defense investment lets it better stomach Kyogre's and Palkia's attacks. Alternatively, a spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Timid nature can be used with Will-O-Wisp, allowing Arceus to, at worst, Speed tie with Extreme Killer Normal Arceus and other Swords Dance Arceus formes and burn them. At any rate, it is recommended to invest fully in HP, since a main draw of using Calm Mind Dragon Arceus is that it can switch into Choice Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout at full power and avoid being 2HKOed.

Usage Tips
========

Capitalize on Pokemon Dragon Arceus can handle by switching it in on them throughout the game. Spread burns with Will-O-Wisp and keep it healthy until a window of opportunity opens for it to switch in safely to set up late-game, such as a predicted Surf from Choice Scarf Kyogre. Even a full-powered Water Spout from Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre does a maximum of 48% damage to Dragon Arceus with the listed EV spread, so do take note of that. In general though, be prudent with the usage of Calm Mind early-game and only attempt to sweep after opposing Fairy-types are removed. If you predict a Xerneas or Fairy Arceus switching in, do not hesitate to double switch to a relevant teammate. Lastly, be mindful of status. Unless it is using Refresh, Dragon Arceus is crippled by status of any sort. Burn and poison limit its longevity, and paralysis destroys its Speed advantage over many Pokemon.

Team Options
========

Mega Gengar support is strongly advocated to remove Fairy-types that are immune to Dragon Arceus's Judgment. Ho-Oh can capitalize on the many common Steel-type switch-ins to Dragon Arceus to fire off its powerful STAB moves or set up a Substitute. A physically defensive variant can also help against opposing Ho-Oh, which Dragon Arceus has difficulty taking down. Additionally, a reliable Stealth Rock setter like Landorus-T goes a long way in keeping Ho-Oh in check. Defog support is recommended; Scizor is a solid candidate that fares well against Fairy-types. Xerneas and Sylveon are good teammates that can rid Dragon Arceus of status ailments; their Fairy-typing is also useful for shielding it from opposing Dragon-type moves. Most importantly, it is necessary to have teammates that can subdue a boosted and healthy Geomancy Xerneas, which can switch in and setup on Dragon Arceus easily. Specially defensive Kyogre can take any boosted hit and phaze Xerneas with Roar, as can Multiscale Lugia with Whirlwind. Aegislash and Bronzong can handle Xerneas with Gyro Ball, although they both require Attack investment to OHKO it.


Swords Dance
########
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Overheat
move 4: Earthquake / Iron Tail / Extreme Speed
item: Draco Plate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Swords Dance doubles Dragon Arceus's Attack, making it an extremely threatening sweeper with a single turn of setup. Effectively a 144 Base Power STAB move, Outrage is the star of the show; at +2 Attack, it ruins anything that doesn't resist it. For example, physically defensive Yveltal has a 81% chance of getting OHKOed after it has taken Stealth Rock damage. This is the main reason for using Swords Dance Dragon Arceus over another Swords Dance Arceus forme such as Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus. Overheat complements Dragon Arceus's STAB Outrage excellently, burning to cinders bulky Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Skarmory, all of which can stomach Outrage comfortably. Fire Blast can also be used here, as Overheat's Special Attack drop can be exploited with clever scouting. Earthquake is useful for hitting Klefki and Aegislash, problematic Pokemon that Dragon Arceus cannot really overcome otherwise; it also hits Heatran and Jirachi. Iron Tail is Dragon Arceus's best means of getting past Fairy-types. Although it has shaky accuracy, a +2 Attack Iron Tail has a 94% chance of OHKOing standard (108 HP / 28 Def) Geomancy Xerneas and maims most other Fairies with the exception of Klefki, which takes a minimum of 70% from the move. Extreme Speed can be used to pick off weakened Choice Scarf users that attempt to revenge kill Dragon Arceus; it also OHKOs Deoxys-A outright and does hefty damage to frail offensive powerhouses like Mega Blaziken, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Darkrai. Iron Head is a weaker, albeit more accurate alternative to Iron Tail, when one cannot afford to miss against Fairy-types like Geomancy Xerneas.

Set Details
========

252 Spe EVs with a Jolly nature allow Dragon Arceus to outspeed everything relevant and Speed tie with other Arceus at worst. This is very important for this set as Will-O-Wisp burns from opposing support Arceus are especially debilitating. 252 Atk EVs let Dragon Arceus hit as hard as possible.

Usage Tips
========

Be aware of what Dragon Arceus can and cannot KO with Outrage. +2 Outrage has a much higher chance of OHKOing many threats such as physically defensive Yveltal, Lugia, and type-neutral 252 HP support Arceus formes with Stealth Rock support, so ensure your entry hazards stay up. Being easily crippled by burns and possessing no recovery move, Dragon Arceus is very much a late-game sweeper, not to mention that Fairy-types are immune to its otherwise spammable STAB Outrage. As such, do not attempt to set up early game until its checks have been worn down or removed. However, if the opponent's team does not have a Fairy-type (or if Dragon Arceus carries Iron Tail), pulling off a quick Swords Dance to wallbreak mid-game might prove worthwhile, although this is ultimately dependent on the opposing team's structure.

Team Options
========

Once again, Mega Gengar is an excellent teammate as it can remove problematic Fairy-types that deter Dragon Arceus from sweeping. Entry hazards support is highly recommended as they allow Dragon Arceus to obtain crucial OHKOs as mentioned. Consider using suicide leads such as Deoxys-A or Deoxys-S to set up hazards rapidly on offensively inclined teams, although depending on team structure, other Stealth Rock setters such as Dialga, Groudon, and Landorus-T are perfectly viable options. In particular, if Iron Tail is not used, it is advised to have a check to boosted Geomancy Xerneas, although in this case, it cannot set up on Dragon Arceus for free, taking 50-59% from a +2 Earthquake. Scizor and Mega Lucario can both pick off weakened Xerneas with Bullet Punch. Finally, it is worth highlighting that Dragon Arceus functions brilliantly with Sticky Web support, which allows it to plow through potential revenge killers such as Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, and Choice Scarf users and lets it have an easier time setting up.


Other Options
########

Dragon Arceus has few other options. Thunder can be used on the Calm Mind set to hit Kyogre, Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Lugia harder, but note that its poor accuracy is often an issue. Furthermore, it is only about 25% more powerful than STAB Draco Plate Judgment.


Checks & Counters
########

**Fairy-types**: Far and away the biggest threat to Dragon Arceus, Fairy-types are immune to its STAB moves. Geomancy Xerneas is the most notable of these, being able to freely switch in and set up on the Calm Mind set. Fairy Arceus is also very threatening, while clerics like Aromatherapy Xerneas, Heal Bell Sylveon, and Clefable completely wall the Calm Mind set. Whimsicott deserves mention as the Calm Mind set is completely helpless against it if not using Fire Blast. Note that all these Pokemon fall to a Swords Dance-boosted Iron Tail if it is used, so watch out for that if it has been determined that Dragon Arceus is the Swords Dance variant.

**Revenge Killers**: Choice Scarf Zekrom is the most prominent of these, outspeeding and OHKOing Dragon Arceus with Outrage.

**Blissey**: Blissey counters Calm Mind Dragon Arceus thanks to its enormous special bulk and access to Toxic.

**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh takes Judgment comfortably and threatens Calm Mind Dragon Arceus with its powerful dual STAB moves. The Swords Dance set KOs it with a boosted Outrage, but cannot safely set up on it predominantly due to the threat of a Sacred Fire burn.

**Lugia**: With Toxic and Whirlwind, Lugia beats any Calm Mind set lacking Refresh, and with Multiscale active, it can live any hit from the Swords Dance set and phaze it out. Even with Multiscale broken, Lugia takes a maximum of only 80% from +2 Outrage.

**Steel-types**: Bronzong can use Toxic and its favorable typing to wear down both of Dragon Arceus's sets; Overheat does a maximum of 59% to it. Heatran walls the Calm Mind set and wears it down with Toxic, and can also live any hit from the Swords Dance set barring Earthquake and phaze Dragon Arceus with Roar. Note that since Earthquake is a recommended move on the Swords Dance set, Heatran is only a shaky check to it. Skarmory takes on any Swords Dance set lacking Overheat; Ferrothorn takes hefty damage from a +2 Earthquake but can then annoy Dragon Arceus hugely with Leech Seed and Protect. Klefki can live any boosted hit that isn't Earthquake while getting in a Prankster Thunder Wave beforehand.

**Status Conditions**: Dragon Arceus loathes status of any sort; paralysis cripples all its sets, and burn or poison greatly limits its longevity, deterring it from setting up or staying on the field to sweep.

Skeleton

drag swag

Overview
########

• Great all round stats
• Unique mono-Dragon typing remains solid, not threatened by most other types, semi-checks a notable threat in Kyogre
• Fairy-types are its undoing, impairing its offensive potency greatly. Has to rely on sub-optimal coverage moves if it is to overcome them.
• Still remains a viable Calm Mind user and can use a Swords Dance set to good effect

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Fire Blast
item: Draco Plate
evs: 252 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Calm Mind allows Dragon Arceus to sweep late game.
• Judgment is the mandatory STAB move.
• Recover keeps Dragon Arceus healthy throughout the game.
• Will-O-Wisp is great for crippling defensive Pokemon such as Steel-types that resist Dragon Arceus's STAB Judgment. In conjunction with Calm Mind and mono-Dragon typing, it can make Dragon Arceus very difficult to break with both physical and special attacks.
• Alternatively, Fire Blast outright roasts Steel-types barring Heatran.
• Refresh can rid Dragon Arceus of status, allowing to set up on Pokemon like Blissey that would wall it otherwise. Note that this leaves Dragon Arceus completely helpless against Fairy-types.

Set Details
========

• 112 Speed EVs with a Timid nature outspeeds everything up to Jolly Garchomp.
• 252 EVs in HP and the remaining 144 EVs in SpD make the best of Dragon Arceus's excellent natural bulk. The SpD investment lets it better stomach Kyogre and Palkia's attacks.
• A spread of 252 HP / 252 Spe with a Timid nature can also be used with Will-O-Wisp, allowing Arceus to at worst, Speed tie with Extreme Killer Arceus Normal and other Swords Dance Arceus formes and burn them.

Usage Tips
========

• Capitalise on Pokemon Dragon Arceus can handle by switching in on them throughout the game. Spread burns and stay healthy until a window of opportunity opens for you to set up late-game.
• Be prudent with usage of Calm Mind early-game.
• Sweep late-game after Fairies are removed.
• Be mindful of status. Unless using Refresh, Dragon Arceus is crippled by status of any sort. Burn and poison limits its longevity, and paralysis destroys its speed advantage over many Pokemon.

Team Options
========

• Mega Gengar support is strongly advocated to remove Fairy-types that are immune to Dragon-Arceus's Judgment.
• Ho-Oh can capitalise on the many common Steel-type switch-ins to Dragon Arceus to fire off its powerful STAB moves or set up a Substitute.
• Defog support is recommended. Scizor is a good option that fares well against Fairy-types.
• Xerneas and Sylveon are good teammates that can rid Dragon Arceus of status ailments. Also, their Fairy-typing is useful for shielding Dragon Arceus from opposing Dragon-type moves.
• [Fairy check(s)]

Swords Dance
########
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Overheat
move 4: Earthquake / Iron Tail / Extreme Speed
item: Draco Plate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

• Swords Dance doubles Dragon Arceus's attack, making it an extremely threatening sweeper with a single turn of setup
• Effectively a 144 base power STAB move, Outrage is the star of the show. At +2 Attack, it ruins anything that doesn't resist it. For example, physically defensive Yveltal has a 81% chance of getting OHKOed after it has taken Stealth Rock damage. This is the main reason to be using Swords Dance Dragon Arceus over another Swords Dance Arceus forme such as Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus.
• Overheat complements Dragon Arceus's STAB Outrage excellently, burning to cinders bulky Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Skarmory, all of which can stomach Outrage decently.
• Earthquake is useful for hitting Klefki and Aegislash, problematic Pokemon which Dragon-Arceus cannot really overcome otherwise. Other notable targets of the move are Heatran and Jirachi.
  
• Iron Tail is Dragon-Arceus's means of getting past Fairy-types. Although it has shaky accuracy, a +2 Iron Tail has a 94% chance of OHKOing standard (108 HP / 28 Def) Geomancy Xerneas and maims most other Fairies with the exception of Klefki, which takes a minimum of 70% from the move.
• Extreme Speed can pick off weakened Choice Scarf Pokemon that attempt to revenge kill Dragon-Arceus. It also kills Deoxys-A outright, and does hefty damage to frail offensive powerhouses like Mega Blaziken, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Darkrai.
• Iron Head is weaker, albeit more accurate alternative to Iron Tail, when one cannot afford to miss against Fairy-types like Geomancy Xerneas.

Set Details
========

• 252 Spe EVs with a Jolly nature to outspeed everything relevant and Speed tie other Arceus at worst. This is very important for Swords Dance Dragon Arceus as Will-O-Wisp burns from opposing support Arceus are especially debilitating.
• 252 Atk EVs let Dragon Arceus hit as hard as possible.

Usage Tips
========

• Be aware of what you can and cannot kill with Outrage. +2 Outrage nets many KOs with hazard support so take note to ensure hazards stay up.
• Late-game sweeper. No recovery, status-prone, Fairies are immune to its otherwise spammable STAB Outrage, do not setup early game until checks have been worn down or removed.

Team Options
========

• Mega Gengar
• Ho-Oh
• Hazards support
• [Fairy check(s)]
• Sticky Web

Other Options
########

Dragon Arceus has few other options. Thunder can be used on the Calm Mind set to hit Kyogre, Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Lugia harder, but note that the move is only <25% more powerful than STAB Draco Plate Judgment.


Checks & Counters
########

**Fairy-types**:
**Revenge Killers**:
**Blissey**:
**Ho-Oh**:
**Lugia**:
**Heatran**
**Status**:

 

[Fireburn]

I wrote a skelly for this for the initial dex rush, take from it what you will. I like your fourth slot slashing a bit better though (with Refresh in Moves)

skelly

Overview
########
- Fastest Ubers viable Dragon-type
- Typing gives it great STAB and helpful resistances - can somewhat check Kyogre which is nice
- Dragon-type weakness is a pain
- Fairies make it harder to use than in the past

Calm Mind
########
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Fire Blast / Refresh
item: Draco Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe

Moves
========

- Calm Mind boosts your offense and bulk - lets Dragon Arceus abuse its nice special resistances
- Judgment is STAB, has solid neutral coverage with few resistances and KOes Dragons easily
- Recover can help Arceus stay alive to keep gaining boosts
- Fire Blast wrecks Steel-types
- Refresh allows Dragon Arceus to heal off status and beat Blissey but leaves it total bait for Fairies
- Sludge Bomb can be used to hurt Fairies


Set Details
========

- Max Speed to tie other Arceus
- Rest goes into HP to help Dragon Arceus set up and abuse its nice resistances

Usage Tips
========

- Can actually check (and set up on) Kyogre which is a nice surprise
- Kill Fairies before you try to sweep with this
- Don't let it take a Toxic to the face if you don't have Refresh
- Pretty straightforward and flexible set

Team Options
========

- Mega Gengar is required to trap and KO Fairy-types
- Reliable Xerneas checks such as Scizor and Klefki are appreciated
- A Fairy-type of your own can foil Choice Scarf Dragons such as Zekrom from attempting a revenge kill - Xerneas and Sylveon are nice since they can use cleric moves to get rid of Toxics that Dragon Arceus might take
- Stealth Rock from Landorus-T or Groudon helps break Ho-Oh


Other Options
########

- Earth Power demolishes Heatran
- Stone Edge if you really hate Ho-Oh
- Thunder hurts Kyogre/Ho-Oh a lot and has good neutral coverage with Dragon STAB
- Swords Dance is pretty viable thanks to Dragon Arceus's nice Speed and solid coverage moves in Earthquake and Poison Jab


Checks & Counters
########

**Fairy-types**: Xerneas and Fairy Arceus completely wall Dragon Arceus, Klefki can Toxic sets without Refresh
**Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh takes Dragon Arceus's attacks with ease and can either phaze it or KO with Brave Bird
**Zekrom**: Choice Scarf Zekrom can easily revenge kill Dragon Arceus with Outrage
**Blissey**: Beats any Calm Mind set without Refresh
**Heatran**: Completely walls any set without Earth Power, can Taunt to stop Refresh and phaze
**Lugia**: Can phaze and Toxic sets without Refresh. Takes boosted Judgments well due to its great bulk.
**Toxic**: Ruins Dragon Arceus's ability to sweep if it lacks Refresh

 

[Nayrz]

I'll probably get my ass handed to me for this, but i actually think that Work Up could possibly work on Dragonceus. I mean it gets Spacial Rend, Draco Meteor, and Roar of Time, as well as physical moves like Outrage and Dragon Claw. I'm not saying make this a proper set, but i think it should be OO for lols.

 

[malefic]

I'm aware this is pretty barebones but I believe I've got the essentials down, so I'll be moving this into QC. Thanks Fireburn for the skelly. Nayrz, Work Up is cute but I'll abstain from adding it because the 4MSS is too real :|

 

[Hack]

Swords Dance should get a set, I have used it and it's pretty okay. Don't really see much appeal in CM, but it probably is okay too lol.

 

[Disaster Area]

I've not tried dragceus but the way I see it it has 4 resistances, water, grass, fire, and electric.. none of those are useless. I think it's a solid check to kyogre and ho-oh, with a comparison to waterceus; whereas waterceus can threaten ho-oh (some of the time) and not really threaten ogre, dragceus is less threatening to ho-oh, but has a stab thatcan do stuff to ogre, as well as palkia, which totally walls waterceus. Furthermore it has access to physical STABs as well as special ones; the main issue is that whilst dragon has great neutral coverage, it has naturally very limited and unhelpful SE coverage, and that tends to count more for an arceus form. And whilst waterceus has 2 weaknesses in electric and grass, that only really makes it particularly bait for zekrom and ogre's thunder does a number on it, whereas dragceus has 3 weaknesses, ice, fairy, and of course dragon; the ice weakness means that ice beam from ogre does anumber on it (but surely better than thunder doing that in some ways), fairy being a key weakness, but teams should be told to generally prepare for fairies anyway (there's only really xern/sylv/fairyceus/keys); the only troubles I see then with having a support set is that.. it's coverage, whilst neutral on several thing, poses some weaknesses because of that; if it runs physical STAB it is worse at checking ho-oh but better vs kyogre, and the special isn't exactly doing much better; it has trouble defogging on klefki because it won't take play rough beautifully, but that's a small issue; so... maybe a support set viable? Haven't tested, but I think that theorymonning is vaguely sensible.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Iron Head is better than Poison Jab for sure - from experience using Dragonceus this generation, +2 hitsfairiessupereffectively coverage move does around 70% to Xerneas iirc, and Iron Head is better because you'd rather flinch Xerneas/Fairyceus and live than poison them and die. Iron Head also has a side bonus of not giving opposing Steel types completely free turns, which is nice - Outrage vs Dragon Claw is a choice to make, obviously you don't want to outrage straight into a stupid deer or anything. The issue with Dragonceus is that, whilst it's not supremely awful like Arceus-Bug, you suffer from a serious opportunity cost when using it, as you can't (really) use a support Defog one, and other support Arceus check dangerous tier members (fairyceus checks yveltal, rockceus checks hooh, grassceus checks kyogre etc). personally i think Swords Dance is better than Calm Mind, and should get its own set (and maybe even have the SD set first)

 

[malefic]

added swords dance set. 144 base power STAB outrage is the only reason to be using this over jolly LO ekiller so dragon claw does not merit a mention. support blows bc it can't switch into palkia reliably, which any decent supportceus should be able to do (rockceus's niche is checking ho-oh so yeah). main advantage of cm set is that it handles choiced ogre even at +0.

 

[shrang]

EQ > Extreme Speed IMO. You'd want to be able to hit steels, and ES is weak as it is even on Ekiller, let alone unSTABed.

 

[malefic]

Done. Put Overheat in moves.

 

[shrang]

What? I don't even. I'm sorry, but I probably should have made it crystal clear. When I told you to put EQ > ES, I expected you to get rid of ES, not keep it. I really don't want to articulate how bad Extreme Speed actually is. Sure, it's useful at picking off weakened Pokemon, but you really have to emphasise "weakened". I seriously doubt you can revenge kill anything half bulky that's not <20% health. It does little for you on a sweeping set like SD. Overheat, on the other hand, lets you swat aside Scizor in a way none of Dragceus's other moves can, as well as getting past the rare Skarmory.

Look, I'm not directing this frustration at you, but I'm just so perplexed why people love Extreme Speed so much. Sure, on Extreme Killer, it's great. On something like Groundceus which has enough coverage as it is, it's not a bad filler move and you're not wasting precious moveslots because you have one to spare. On any other sweeper that doesn't have a STAB move as their priority and are slow (Rayquaza) and has something to boost it (Life Orb), it's necessary. However, on non-Normal Arceus, who is actually pretty fast, and has no item to boost it, it is so flat out weak that you may as well use something else because it's a waste of a move. You don't see stuff like Terrakion using Quick Attack for the same reason. I apologise if I'm being really harsh, but this is more directed at the general public who has this perception that Extreme Speed is actually good on non-Ekiller Arceuses.

tl;dr - ES in moves, Overheat in slash.

 

[malefic]

shrang

In light of your post, I'm leaving EQ as the only move in slot 4 and giving both espeed and Overheat moves mentions.

tl;dr

My point: espeed is at least as useful as Overheat, and definitely not trash. I agree that giving espeed a main slash might be a misrepresentation of how useful the move is, and I apologize for my oversight. With that said, I feel that some of your 'espeed is trash' sentiments are similarly, misrepresentations of the move's usefulness, and segments of your post are clearly hyperbolic. Yes, +2 espeed is still doing peanuts to bulky pokemon, but then you would be hitting those pokemon with STAB Outrage, anyway.... and aside from the tenuous allusion, you really didn't have to include the bit about Quick Attack Terrakion to get your point across because it is an irrelevant comparison. The intended targets of espeed are fast but frail offensive powerhouses that can otherwise kill you, factoring in the damage you will likely have incurred setting up. These include Mega Blaziken, MMY, Deo A, and Darkrai, all threatening pokemon that +2 espeed will take out with little to no prior damage. The same applies to scarfed rkers, although I concede that these pokemon must be significantly weakened. Basically, the point I am trying to make is that espeed is at least as viable as Overheat in slot 4, as each of the 2 moves dispatch specific threats that can hinder dragceus' sweep. At any rate, I think you understand the point I'm making so I hope we can reach an amicable understanding on this.

EDIT:
With reference to Hack's posts, I'm changing the set to:

SD
Outrage
Iron Head / Overheat
Extreme Speed / Iron Head / (Earthquake)

 

[Hack]

No, I am not fine with getting rid of Extremespeed. Weak as it is- the move is also absolutely detrimental in a metagame where Xerneas and other fast sweepers like MMY and Blaze dominate. Being able to do just the little 20 % to a Geomancy Xerneas is fantastic team support and allows Dragceus to have further utility. I don't know if you don't understand that Earthquake has exactly 0 relevant targets (Jirachi and Heatran are much worse and rare in the current meta, they are also quite bad mons that can easily be taken advantage of somehow), and you should just run a fire move if you wanna hit Scizor/Ferrothorn since Earthquake does nothing anyway.

 

[shrang]

Being able to do just the little 20 % to a Geomancy Xerneas is fantastic team support and allows Dragceus to have further utility.

I really can't see that being helpful, lol. Sure, the Xerneas could be <20%, but otherwise you're just going to end up with a dead Dragceus that achieved very little. It would pretty much equate to a waste of a move and a waste of a Dragceus in most situations. You've hit Xerneas for 20%... now what? You're doing about the same to MMY (it's actually quite bulky), and if you can't even kill Blaziken unless it's Flare Blitz'd something bulky first. You can't kill Darkrai with it either, so pretty much the only thing you CAN revenge kill is Deo-A (which can easily just switch out to anything because ES will hit that for nothing).

You also hit Aegislash with EQ, and as crappy as Aegi is, it's still one of those Pokemon that you'd to be able to just kill it if you can. Also, as rare as Jirachi and Heatran are, I'd much rather take the ability to easily take them down than doing measly 20%'s to most Pokemon which would end up very little in the long run. I do agree with you that the Fire move is probably more useful, though.

 

[Hack]

I really can't see that being helpful, lol. Sure, the Xerneas could be <20%, but otherwise you're just going to end up with a dead Dragceus that achieved very little. It would pretty much equate to a waste of a move and a waste of a Dragceus in most situations. You've hit Xerneas for 20%... now what? You're doing about the same to MMY (it's actually quite bulky), and if you can't even kill Blaziken unless it's Flare Blitz'd something bulky first. You can't kill Darkrai with it either, so pretty much the only thing you CAN revenge kill is Deo-A (which can easily just switch out to anything because ES will hit that for nothing).

You also hit Aegislash with EQ, and as crappy as Aegi is, it's still one of those Pokemon that you'd to be able to just kill it if you can. Also, as rare as Jirachi and Heatran are, I'd much rather take the ability to easily take them down than doing measly 20%'s to most Pokemon which would end up very little in the long run. I do agree with you that the Fire move is probably more useful, though.

You are not doing the same to MMY, Blaze and Darkrai obviously. Point is, not arguing for the power, it's bad, but priority isn't. Having it can really work in emergency situations, I'd rather be able to pick off a Xerneas/Blaze at low health than lose the game. and I don't see how coverage is that much of an issue when you always use this mon with Gengar. There are many situations when emergencies like this occur imo, and I don't see how Espeed is worse than Earthquake and to an extent Iron Head, especially since again, you are running Gengar with this mon or I don't know what. I should probably not even have to point out that a +2 Extremespeed can pick off weakened scarfers or faster revenge killers (since it is decently strong at +2), which prolongs your sweep a bit. This can stop you from being revenge killed by (in certain scenarios where this mons are weakened, yes, but these scenarios are possible, and more probable than hitting a Heatran or Jirachi as those aren't used like ever):
MMY, MMX, LO M2, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Kyogre, Zekrom, protect Blaze, scarf Xerneas just to name a few.

Summary: Rather do small amounts of damage to emergency save me against some of the most threatening mons in the game than having a coverage move that hits irrelevant threats.

Change set to something like

SD
Outrage
Espeed/Iron Head
Overheat/Iron Head

 

[PISTOLERO]

Let me help you guys out with a wall of calcs :)

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 294-348 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

the combination of both is nice to wipe out Xerneas that tries to set up Geomancy on you. I think that Extremespeeding here is useful as it allows Dragon Arceus to wipe out its archenemy and then proceed to click Outrage. The issue here is not being able to hit Aegis, Skarmory (not so relevant) and Scizor (pretty relevant) effectively, but I can understand Extremespeed here. However, the only Xerneas you should be extremespeeding should be weakened Xerneas (eg ganging up on it with a teammate that has Bullet Punch). every other Xerneas that you should not be running away from will be slower and therefore Iron Head-able - Xerneas will always be slower unless it's Scarfed, and why are you keeping Dragon Arceus in on Scarfed Xerneas anyway unless you're almost dead anyway - Extremespeed is nice here as a last gasp fuck-you to revenge killers, but is it really worth dropping over another move?

It's time for pathetic calculations from Extremespeed now:


+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 141-167 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 180-212 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO


all of these are probably the scarves you will see most often, and obviously all of them can murder you in return. I think shrang is right, EQ/Overheat is probably better, and Extremespeed is kindof pathetic even at +2. Dragonceus should probably focus more on snapping its checks in half with Overheat/EQ/Iron Head/etc than trying to play Extremekiller Arceus.

basically, all of the coverage moves are necessary.

without EQ, you get walled by Aegis, Heatran, other Steel-Types that don't really care about Overheat


0- SpA Arceus-Dragon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 106-126 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 6.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


and then it clicks Toxic and King's Shield and you die, whereas with EQ:


+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 290-342 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


it has no chance of winning against you, and if it King's Shields you can just SD again (not a risk it's gonna want to take)

without Overheat, you get stopped by Mega Scizor:


0- SpA Arceus-Dragon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 392-464 (113.9 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 154-182 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO


although to be fair Scizor can't play the games it does with Extremekiller by Roosting until Arceus dies to LO recoil


without Iron Head, good luck even having a chance against fairies:


+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 294-348 (74.8 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

deals heavy damage and you might flinch it :)


+2 252 Atk Arceus-Dragon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 184-217 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

pffffffff


like i said before, Iron Head + Espeed is nice for wiping out arrogant Geomancy Xerneas (although to be fair, i don't know whether we write analyses for the ladder, ladder players are stupid and tend to ragequit after their precious deer gets killed by Arceus-Dragon, whereas smarter players would hopefully not be so stupid)

also, tiny nitpick again, last 4 EVs in Special Defense so that Genesect doesn't get to hit you with +1 Ice Beam?

 

[shrang]

Thanks LustrousPalkia for pretty much saying most of what I wanted to say. I just need to respond to this though:

Having it can really work in emergency situations, I'd rather be able to pick off a Xerneas/Blaze at low health than lose the game. and I don't see how coverage is that much of an issue when you always use this mon with Gengar.

Just saying though, Earthquake and Overheat hit the very Pokemon that can't be trapped by Gengar very easily. You can't trap Aegislash with Gengar, and without Earthquake, you're completely stuck in that situation. It's hard to trap Heatran with Gengar too, and it's also hard to trap Scizor/Ferrothorn with Gengar (I guess you could suicide Destiny Bond on them, but you'd try to avoid that if possible). If you're going to tailor the SD set to mandatory Gengar support, I'd sugest SD / Outrage / EQ / Overheat and drop Iron Head, since you'd be presuming that you're removing Fairies with Gengar.

 

[malefic]

shrang I am amenable to using that as the main spread. However, at any rate, I think SD dragceus merits further testing as I have had minimal experience with it, so I am moving this back into WIP for a couple days.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Thanks LustrousPalkia for pretty much saying most of what I wanted to say

you're welcome Shrang :)

btw, in last gen's analysis, it says this:

Overheat can provide coverage on the Swords Dance set to hit Steel-types immune to Earthquake, but it can't even 2HKO Careful Skarmory and Sassy Bronzong, nor can it OHKO Sassy Ferrothorn without sun support; in rain, it does pathetic damage even to Ferrothorn, and therefore is definitely not worth the moveslot.

granted, these three Steel-Types are less relevant this generation, but it's something to note that Overheat only really smokes Scizor in one hit, and if Mega Scizor is running that specially defensive spread, im not sure about it KOing either. Also, Overheat was more powerful last generation, so...

I'm curious as to what people think of Recover on the Swords Dance set. I would think Earthquake/Outrage/SD/Recover would have to be the set (no Togekiss in this tier to ruin your fun). Skarmory is less relevant this generation, and you should probably be using Mega Gengar to remove roadblocks to this anyway - with Recover, it means that Dragonceus can play similarly to certain variants of SD Groundceus and SD Ghostceus - i myself have found that running Recover on SD Ghostceus works really well alongside something like Arometherapy Xerneas (which coincidentally takes on Dark-Types that threaten Ghostceus, and can take on Dragons that could cause Dragonceus issues). This way, you can rampage more than once, as if you get burned/poisoned, you can Recover, retreat, have your cleric restore you, then come back out for another go. I found that this worked very well for Arceus-Ghost as NOTHING wants to take +2 Shadow Force, and you can kill any Normal-Types with Brick Break anyway - Outrage is similar in that, once Fairy-Types and Steel-Types are out of the way, nothing on earth wants to switch into it. So, what do you guys think of Recover? :)

also, on a side note (more calculations incoming)

Will-O-Wisp Arceus formes are not reliable at checking Arceus-Dragon, what with the speed tying and chance of WoW missing, and if they don't burn Dragonceus first, then:

+2 252 Atk Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-typethattakesneutraldamagefromoutrage: 381-448 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO, or a 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (same calculation applies to Shadow Force from Arceus-Ghost)

it's also something to note that due to Outrage's 120 base power, Outrage is actually more powerful than, say, EQ against Arceus-Rock, as Outrage's damage is 120 x 1.5 x 1.2 = 216 base power, whereas EQ would be 100 x 2 = 200.

i think this is worth mentioning, as you can OHKO Rockceus with Outrage but not with EQ for example (85.8 - 100.9% vs 79.2 - 93.6%)

 

[malefic]

I'm thinking SD Dragceus can't fit recover without losing instrumental coverage. This set is largely used as a late-game sweeper, and missing out on any 1 of Fairies/Steels/faster frailer threats is just not worth it. The only SD Arceus that can viably run Recover is Groundceus, as EdgeQuake provides superb dual-type coverage. Will test the move out though, given my lack of practical knowledge of the set as stated.

 

[PISTOLERO]

I'm thinking SD Dragceus can't fit recover without losing instrumental coverage. Missing out on any 1 of Fairies/Steels/faster frailer threats is just not worth it. The only SD Arceus that can viably run Recover is Groundceus, as EdgeQuake provides superb dual-type coverage. Will probably test the move out, though.

Just updated my post with (even more) calculations and comments Malefic :) also, i think that Mega Gengar can be used to wipe out the roadblocks to this pretty well - but I hated giving up Iron Head on Arceus though, youre probably right that it's better to equip Arceus with his own fairy killing tools most of the time.

 

[shrang]

About Recover, I did try out a (rather specific and situational) bulky SubSD Dragceus last gen. It was pretty much used to check Kyogre, Latias and up on Ferrothorn/Gliscor all at once. Obviously, something like this wouldn't work this gen since Fairies. I do agree that Dragceus is strapped for moveslots as it is, so it's probably not a good idea.

 

[PISTOLERO]

fair enough Shrang, the issue Dragonceus has this generation is Fairies more than anything, it is not an awful Arceus forme at all, the sad thing is that if you use Arceus-Dragon you can't use another Arceus with Defog etc.

also, Malefic, Arceus-Dragon can do something that other Arceus formes have issues doing sometimes:

+2 252 Atk Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 331-390 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 306-362 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

it can take out physically defensive Yveltal out more easily than both Extremekiller and Groundceus, and thus has less chance of having to eat a Foul Play. No other SD Arceus forme except Arceus-Rock (and who uses SD Rockceus anyway) has such high odds of winning against Yveltal (obviously you need SR up).

also, on a side note, what is the standard when writing a certain Arceus's name? would it be Arceus-Dragon, Dragon Arceus or Dragonceus?

 

[malefic]

I'm aware of the calcs, hence my emphasizing the importance of outrage (>dragon claw) earlier. Also, it's [type] Arceus as far as analyses go.

 

[Fireburn]

Earthquake / Extreme Speed / Iron Head should be the slashing in slot 4 imo. I actually feel like Earthquake is kind of necessary since without it Dragceus can't do anything to pressure Klefki switchins (who otherwise TWave you and gleefully get 3 layers of Spikes). Gengar can trap Klefki yes but it'll get paralyzed in the process which can suck hard if your opponent also has Xerneas or something like that. Killing Jirachi/Heatran are also nice perks, and no they are not bad mons.

ESpeed works better on Arceus formes like Ground and Ghost where they don't necessarily need a third coverage move. Dragceus kinda needs coverage nowadays.