Chesnaught [QC 0/3]

I've never found Roar to be all that useful, I'd probably just mention it in the moves section at best. Out of the examples you provided, the only thing that Chesnaught has any business forcing out with Roar is Garchomp. Roar does nothing to Gengar, and in all honesty, you probably shouldn't even be staying in on it (unless under a very special circumstance) due to the fact that many Gengar carry WoW. Swords Dance Aegi is better checked by Quag or Skarmory and why would you even try and stay in on Mega Pinsir is beyond me. lol There really aren't that many set up sweepers that Chesnaught can force out without either being KOed or being seriously crippled in the process, which makes Roar a very poor option in that sense.

I do see the whole shuffling appeal in the second set, but Defog pretty much kills this strategy, as every Defog user doesn't really care much about what Chesnaught can do and most can put a serious pounding on it. I don't see the point in a set dedicated to shuffling with hazards when every defog user shits on you, the way Chesnaught should be setting up Spikes is when it forces a switch; in other words, you should only set up Spikes when its convenient, not direct its entire role towards doing so.

This replay in a smogon tour match sorta demonstrates how its done:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-2933

There's a reason why very few Pokemon dedicate sets towards setting up Spikes, and I don't understand what makes Chesnaught any different to the point where it deserves a set for such a role even when it's at a natural disadvantage when up against a vast majority of Defog user.

I'm not sure if there's any point in having two different sets. Imo, they should just be merged and it should look something like this:

move 1: Spiky Shield
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Spikes / Synthesis
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Impish

In regards to the Spikes / Synthesis slash, it's really all about a matter of preference. Between Leech Seed + leftovers, Chesnaught isn't all that reliant on recovery to stay healthy. So for that reason, I don't really believe it is required, but hey, reliable recovery is reliable recovery and is damn good to have. However, I did find Spikes to be the best filler move out of the two, the reason being is that Chesnaught is capable of forcing a lot of switches; as a result, it can capitalize on that by setting up a layer of Spikes that very turn. This works so well in wearing down the opposing team and makes Chesnaught all the move annoying.

As far as the team options are concerned, I think SpD Talonflame is something good to mention here. SpD Talonflame completely walls Zard-Y and can switch into Fairys rather easily on top of being able to handle Mega Venusaur and Deo-S, all Pokemon that Chesnaught struggles with. In return, Chesnaught can easily take down Ttar and somewhat deal with Rotom-W. The combination is just so gorgeous and plays out really well in practice. You mostly mention offensive partners, but I find the lack of defensive partners to be disappointing. Basically, here's a few defensive Pokemon that pair pretty well with Chesnaught: Quagsire, Zapdos, and Skarmory. What you have now is okay, but I think mentioning a little more is nice. These Pokemon also deal with set up sweepers just fine via phasing of their own or Unaware, so it really lessens the need towards using Roar on Chesnaught
I agree with basically all of this. However, I feel that Synthesis should be slashed first over Spikes, as while Leech Seed and Spiky Shield can help recover HP, I find Synthesis to be a pretty vital move in keeping Chesnaught health for long periods of time. Not only that, but I find between Leech Seed and Spiky Shield, Chesnaught doesn't have as many opportunities to set up Spikes as he would like. Finally, while Spikes are far from useless, they are no where as easy to maintain due to the new Defog mechanics, and many of the Flying-type Defog users don't have trouble beating Chesnaught anyway. Spikes can definitely be helpful, but I personally find reliable recovery to be much more helpful in the long run.
 
  • Despite a nice offensive movepool, it's Speed and HP let it down completely.
  • Huge amounts of weaknesses such as Fire- and Flying-type moves.
  • Very slow.
This part is a bit redundant, you mention Chesnaughts low speed in almost consecutive points.
 
I wouldn't say it counters Garchomp:
0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 168-198 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And any moves it uses will make it take Rough Skin damage, ensuring the 2HKO. It does stop non-Fire Blast Garchomp though.
 
Spiky Shield is a must. It is a useful scouting tool. It also damages many threats such as Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, and Genesect.
Must've missed one.
  • King's Shield + Swords Dance Aegislash can set up on Chesnaught. However, Chesnaught can check any Aegislash without Hidden Power Ice.
Perhaps note that it's either last 'mon Aegislash or Roar-less Chesnaught, as otherwise it can phase Aegislash out as it tries to set up?
 

TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
I wouldn't say it counters Garchomp:
0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 168-198 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And any moves it uses will make it take Rough Skin damage, ensuring the 2HKO. It does stop non-Fire Blast Garchomp though.
Adding on to Chesnaught, Fire Blast 2HKOs with 4 SpA EVs, a Life Orb, and a Naive/Hasty Nature:

4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 218-257 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, mixed Mega Garchomp does a ton to Chesnaught:

252 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 286-338 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Mention that Chesnaught checks Garchomp, but falls to Fire Blast variants.

For OO, Swamp-Rocket made some good points about a Swords Dance set, and about Spiky Shield and Poison Jab, so implement those. Also add Wood Hammer and Toxic.

For Checks and Counters, mention special attacking Fairy types, especially Togekiss and Mega Gardevoir, as they hit Chesnaught super effectively on its weaker Special Defense, and can take Chesnaught's STAB moves with ease. Also mention Psychic types such as Alakazam, Latios, and Deoxys-S, as they also hit Chesnaught super effectively on its weaker Special Defense, while taking Hammer Arm fairly comfortably.
 
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Adding on to Chesnaught, Fire Blast 2HKOs with 4 SpA EVs, a Life Orb, and a Naive/Hasty Nature:

4 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 218-257 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, mixed Mega Garchomp does a ton to Chesnaught:

252 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 286-338 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Mention that Chesnaught checks Garchomp, but falls to Fire Blast variants.

For OO, Swamp-Rocket made some good points about a Swords Dance set, and about Spiky Shield and Poison Jab, so implement those. Also add Toxic Spikes, Wood Hammer, and Toxic.

For Checks and Counters, mention special attacking Fairy types, especially Togekiss and Mega Gardevoir, as they hit Chesnaught super effectively on its weaker Special Defense, and can take Chesnaught's STAB moves with ease.
It does not learn Toxic Spikes.
 
Supporting Spirit's changes. Sorry about changing my mind after I told you to split it, but I think that's a better way to format it.
 
After much testing, I have found this set to have a niche that none of its other sets fill.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability:- Bulletproof
EVs:- 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Nature:- Impish (+Def -SAtk)
- Leech Seed
- Spiky Shield
- Hammer Arm
- Synthesis / Earthquake

Chesnaught is normally seen as an exceptionally bulky physical wall that stops pokemon like Excadrill, Tyranitar, Bisharp etc while also being able to switch into weak resisted attacks on the special side like 4 SAtk Rotom-W Volt Switch. However, I have found that Chesnaught is still able to beat the physical threats it wants to take on even after a boost, as long as it stays relatively healthy, while also being able to take on select special attacking pokemon whose STAB attacks it resists. With special defence investment, Chesnaught becomes able to take on things like Choice Specs Keldeo as long as rain isn't present, to give an example of its special bulk. The calcs all show the most powerful moves that pokemon can use against Chesnaught:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 114-135 (30 - 35.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 75-88 (19.7 - 23.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 108-127 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 144-171 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 277-328 (72.8 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 246-290 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Chesnaught: 204-240 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Chesnaught: 59-69 (15.5 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Chesnaught: 122-144 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Chesnaught: 170-202 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Chesnaught: 138-163 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As can be seen, Chesnaught is bulky enough on both sides to be a mixed wall. With Earthquake, Chesnaught can check Aegislash, if that isn't necessary then Synthesis is preferable to keep Chesnaught healthy at times where Leech Seed + Leftovers with Spiky Shield isn't enough. It happens much more frequently when Chesnaught is taking on threats on both sides. As opposed to being an out-and-out wall, I have found that Chesnaught tends to play more like a pivot, switching into a weak resisted attack, pulling off a Leech Seed and Spiky Shield to heal and deal some damage, then switching out.

Another thing that I would like to see mentioned is how effective Chesnaught is against VoltTurn now that Genesect is banned. It completely cockblocks both Landorus-T and Rotom-W, while neither Choice Band Scizor or Mega Scizor can deal enough damage to even 2HKO Chesnaught. Chesnaught doesn't even need entry hazard support to begin wearing them down, Leech Seed saps away their HP and Spiky Shield deals damage to U-Turn users. Yes, there are things like Talonflame that Chesnaught has no business taking on but even then, it can hit it with Leech Seed on the switch in and Spiky Shield any move to deal damage.
 
Maybe mention in the overview why one would pick Chesnaught over Megasaur, Tangrowth and Amoonguss (doesn't take the Mega slot + Spikes and Bulletproof give it a niche), as they compete with Chesnaught for a teamslot as Grass-type pivot. Not QC though.
 
Maybe mention in the overview why one would pick Chesnaught over Megasaur, Tangrowth and Amoonguss (doesn't take the Mega slot + Spikes and Bulletproof give it a niche), as they compete with Chesnaught for a teamslot as Grass-type pivot. Not QC though.
A resistance to the EdgeQuake combo, as well as Spiky Shield are two other things that separate Chesnaught from other Grass-types.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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Moves
=====
  • Spiky Shield is a must. It is a useful scouting tool. It also damages many threats such as Mega Charizard X, Talonflame, and Genesect. Alongside Leech Seed, you will have plenty of chip damage to support the team.
That has to go :)
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Ruffian

QC users discussed about the set that Chesnaught should use. We have decided that this should be the only set:

move 1: Spiky Shield
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Hammer Arm
move 4: Spikes / Wood Hammer

- Earthquake will go to Moves. Mention Earthquake is primarily for Aegislash. We felt it wasn't great for a mandatory slash because EQ is still kind of weak and Chesnaught is still prone to SubToxic Aegislash.
- You may also include Roar / Synthesis if you would like.
 

CyclicCompound

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Okay, some stuff for you to do:

Make the only set the one that Colonel M posted above.

Stress that one of the main points to using Spikes is that Mega Venusaur can't technically "wall" you since you just set up Spikes in its face until it switches out.

Add some more Fire-types, Ice-types, etc. to checks and counters (e.g. Mega Charizard X, Kyurem-B, etc.)

Expand Usage Tips a bit, add stuff to switch into, things to do against specific pokemon, when to spiky shield, etc.

Do all of that and consider this QC 1/4
 
Last post in this thread was a month ago, yet user was active yesterday. I'd like to see this progress.
 
I still think that specially defensive deserves a set. It will have the same moveset as physically defensive, but it plays differently and is effective in its role as a pivot. It can't be compared to Mega Venusaur because they do different things. It has a different typing to Tangrowth and Amoonguss, allowing it to resist EdgeQuake and Stealth Rock while checking different pokemon. Not to mention it can heal more effectively with Leech Seed and Spiky Shield while staying in, The aforementioned two rely on Regenerator. Neither of the aforementioned two use Leech Seed often, Tangrowth uses Assault Vest while Amoonguss can't fit it onto its moveset. It deserves at least a mention.
 

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