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I'm not gonna talk much about Murkrow because it's obviously broken and the way it limits team building makes lc much less fun. But meditite is a very controversial case. I've read a few pages of this thread and the biggest arguments against meditite being broken are situational counters like slowpoke and honedge, or checks who outspeed it. Imo tite doesnt even need elemental punches to break past stuff like honedge, slowpoke or spritzee because all/most of them are unthreatening baits for threatening mons like pawniard and misdreavus who make good partners for meditite. For example, a smart double switch to pawniard on the obvious honedge switch in can reward you momentum with the threat of stab knock off/pursuit. With forgoing punches, meditite can run both DP/HJK and BP or even fake out to make it more threatening.
Meditite can also utilize choice scarf to overcome its issues with faster threats to a good extent.
So here are the reasons why I think tite is broken:
-Ridiculously high attack and a good movepool
-Ability to use key sets with great success (eviolite can abuse switchins to cause wreckage repeatedly, lo 2hkoes everything and scarf outspeeds and ohkoes most of its would-be checks)
And most importantly;
-Unpredictability coupled with ways to get past any counter/check (be it with the help of a pursuit trapper or coverage)
So in my opinion meditite is banworthy and unhealthy for the meta as it negatively limits teambuilding and the styles of play.
1) Is Murkrow / Meditite broken?
Murkrow is broken. Why? Let's just evaluate the fact that it has a ton of movesets like SubThief, LOMixkrow, JuiceKrow, EvioKrow, Swagkrow, etc... With that many movesets, each of them requiring different ways to handle it, it's hard to see how this thing is healthy for the game. Next up we have the fact that Murkrow's Brave Bird literally destroys anything not resisting it, forcing people to run Chinchou, which is the most common answer to it, but even so, If Murkrow sets a Substitute as you switch Chinchou in, you could probably expect your Eviolite to be gone soon, while Murkrow is happily switching out after taking a hit. Murkrow's stats... 19 Speed? That's 1 point shorter than the 3 fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and it outspeeds a lot of the metagame, whatever doesn't get outspeed gets speed tied and probably dies to a Brave Bird/Sucker Punch. Counters for Murkrow? We got Chinchou... Aron... Shieldon? Yep. But all of these can't even reliably take on SubThief Krow, or they'll be losing their Eviolite/Berry Juice to it and then they won't be able to do their jobs well.
I don't think there's anything left to say that has not been said yet and I don't want to write a novel here. I believe Murkrow should be banned.
Now Meditite is a different thing. At first glance it looks like a really huge threat with insane attack and decent speed, with access to STAB recovery and sheer power alone through High Jump Kick, but seriously, many Psychic types take on this thing and depending on the coverage, other types can also switch in and wall it, so I don't see it being that much of a threat anymore. Every single Moveset Meditite can run gets walled by at least a few of the Psychic types or good pokemon in the meta like Honedge, Slowpoke, Elgyem, Exeggcute, Spritzee, Misdreavus, and so forth. Also, it does have a lot of good movesets like LOTite, BatonTite, Eviolite, and so on... but really, it has 4MSS, and its coverage is never enough to handle all of its checks, which turn into counters without the correct coverage move. Overall, I don't see Meditite being that dangerous anymore and I think it should stay. I believe Meditite should not be banned.
2) Is Murkrow / Meditite making Little Cup not fun?
Finding Murkrow is everywhere and its annoying as fuck so yes, it's stale and dumb. Meditite can be a bit annoying but its easy to handle so I can't say it's making it less fun for me, at least.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I think I'll be repeating this one on every suspect thread ever...
Other than the "FUCK MURKROW/MEDITITE" messages I see around PS!, I don't think people have actually quit because of our little bird and monkey.
There was never a point where I was like "there are drawbacks to using Meditite". This was even true for checks. There was no Pokemon that could revenge kill Meditite that was as threatening as it was.
I'll name a drawback. Meditite has been continuously lauded as a wallbreaker, but for the most part, if the opponent has set up let's say their spritzee with a single calm mind, Meditite can dent it but will faint.
Another relatively common situation that makes Meditite a liability is if the opponent has managed to set up and begins sweeping. This is when Meditite's speed and below average bulk let it down. At that point in time, Meditite becomes death fodder, rather than an asset, who can only hope to do some chip damage with Bullet Punch. Other than Swords Dance Pawniard, who I've shown before can beat Meditite 1v1 at +2 if it's using the correct set, there are virtually no set up sweepers that Meditite beats without a scarf, and then you run into the obvious issue of them knowing what you're going to do next turn. This is not the same problem Murkrow has, as it can use its fantastic speed and coverage to eliminate sweepers without boosted speed, and sucker punch to hurt those who have.
And, another liability is that Meditite doesn't sweep, which may seem like an odd statement at first. Meditite will be switching out of its checks - go look at the checks and counters in the statistics if you don't believe me - which means that it will be constantly be taking hazard damage, which adds up to letting other things take advantage of its low speed.
Meditite also should have to bear a burden that seems to be discounted. It can switch in on very little, so it too all but requires that something else die for it to come in, which is "not healthy".
Well that was a lot of posts in a short period of time.
I'll name a drawback. Meditite has been continuously lauded as a wallbreaker, but for the most part, if the opponent has set up let's say their spritzee with a single calm mind, Meditite can dent it but will faint.
Another relatively common situation that makes Meditite a liability is if the opponent has managed to set up and begins sweeping. This is when Meditite's speed and below average bulk let it down. At that point in time, Meditite becomes death fodder, rather than an asset, who can only hope to do some chip damage with Bullet Punch. Other than Swords Dance Pawniard, who I've shown before can beat Meditite 1v1 at +2 if it's using the correct set, there are virtually no set up sweepers that Meditite beats without a scarf, and then you run into the obvious issue of them knowing what you're going to do next turn. This is not the same problem Murkrow has, as it can use its fantastic speed and coverage to eliminate sweepers without boosted speed, and sucker punch to hurt those who have.
And, another liability is that Meditite doesn't sweep, which may seem like an odd statement at first. Meditite will be switching out of its checks - go look at the checks and counters in the statistics if you don't believe me - which means that it will be constantly be taking hazard damage, which adds up to letting other things take advantage of its low speed.
I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this................
1) I specifically said it should be something new, I know, but I'm not talking about absurdities like saying "it can't check its own counters after they set up". You know what else can't check lots of things after they are set up? Every single Pokemon ever, including Ubers. It's actually ironic that you say Meditite isn't good at this, because it actually does 50% + to almost every offensive set up sweeper with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. Not only irrelevant, but not entirely true.
2) I'm not sure you exactly understand what a "drawback" is or for that matter what can logically be concluded from the scenarios you give. A drawback is some reason Meditite would actually hinder your team. For example, it's really slow so fast Brave Birds would hypothetically be a drawback (until someone would obviously argue that there are ample steels/rocks/electrics that can switch into Brave Birds not named Murkrow).
3) Your Pawniard that (my) Meditite doesn't reliably check was proven to be somewhat of a made up idea since it's never used as a spread (for obvious reasons, Jolly is prefered). And notably, it never 1v1s Meditite.
4) Comparing Meditite to Murkrow has nothing to do with anything.
5) You missed the second half of the quote (and the rest of the post).
Meditite also should have to bear a burden that seems to be discounted. It can switch in on very little, so it too all but requires that something else die for it to come in, which is "not healthy".
And that is simply incorrect. If you want proof look at post 144 (the one where you saw Pawniard and pointed out Adamant max speed Swords Dance isn't reliably checked and ignored everything else D:...).
Gonna post my overall thoughts, from what I've seen debated in this thread and saw from calcs and whatnot.
Using heysup's 1 to 10 scale of meditite brokenness, I think i'd be like a 6 or something.
On one hand, you have a devastatingly powerful pokemon with really good coverage. Of course, I wouldn't necessarily say a pokemon is broken on coverage alone, but Meditite's raw power makes its coverage moves usually land a 2KO. Its also pretty bulky, enough to take a good deal of hits and heal with Drain Punch. Fighting/Psychic is a nasty combo, especially in a tier with few psychics.
On the other hand, you have Meditite switch-ins and revengers being rather common. Most counters to Meditite are faster and have some source of healing. If Meditite runs the wrong coverage move then it has no way to get past a lot of other mons. Additonally, Meditite is not "unhealthy;" its presence makes no pokemon become "useless," as seem from Pawniard or Porygon or Timburr or Mienfoo, nor is it running at 40% usage like gligar.
Meditite, on its own, is seemingly fine. However, put Meditite in an environment typical of pokemon battles, especially in Little Cup, and it nears levels of broke. Stealth Rock and spikes are seriously common, and makes Meditite's attacks go from 3KOs to 2KOs to 1KOs. I think we should take into account Knock Off as well; even if Meditite doesn't have access to it.
Of course, all this would strictly depend on specific requirements being met, which is not the case for every battle. So do I think tite is broken? I'd argue so for its power, unpredictability, and coverage, but I'd also for keeping it in the since its not exactly unhealthy for the tier, and has a good deal of common checks and counters (albeit shaky ones). Overall, though, I think it atleast deserving enough for a ban.
1) Although Spritzee might not have been the greatest example, my point is that as a wallbreaker it has difficulty doing its job against things that have a setup move. As for your point about the offensive sweepers taking 50% or more, that's great, but Meditite is still dead at the end.
2) Although Meditite is good at its job, that's all it can do. Also, if it's a liability on your team, then why would you run it on your team? That is either an awful definition of a drawback or you phrased it badly.
3) Thunder Punch Meditite is "preferred" over both Fire Punch and Poison Jab. As has been shown repeatedly, just because something isn't likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Meditite is not a 100% check to +2 Pawniard. Also, yes, it's a made up idea. So was the first person to say "hey, let's run poison jab on meditite to beat spritzee". It's not as preferred as Thunder Punch, but, as a major point of contention over Meditite's brokenness, it's not being discarded like you appear to be trying to do to that EV spread.
4) I don't even... Meditite and Murkrow are completely different. How did you get that ?
5) First, I was responding to your specific challenge to name some drawbacks, not responding to your post as a whole. Second, since when was Misdreavus not threatening? It probably forces you out or it kills you, and has coverage to kill whatever you switch in, or it can neuter it with a burn. Also, you're telling me you've never gotten swept lategame by a fletchling, who is absolutely threatening.
And as for your last point, here's my response to post 144, specifically for Meditite switching in.
Heysup said:
I'm just using this Meditite for this: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 36 Speed, Adamant nature @ Eviolite. Fake Out/Bullet Punch/Drain Punch/Zen Headbutt.
If you run both fake out and bullet punch, then everything Meditite gets by with a coverage move walls it. Spritzee walls it pretty well, Slowpoke walls it to hell and back, Honedge doesn't even care.
Hidden to take up less space.
Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy
It can switch in, but once knocked off (which does pretty decent damage from any of them), it is easily revenge killed. A one for one exchange, which isn't bad at all.
Pawniard
Meditite cannot switch in on Pawniard safely.
Dwebble/Tirtouga
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meditite cannot switch in on Tirtouga if it has already shell smashed, however it can switch in on the turn it smashes. It will, however, take a large amount of damage from waterfall that will remain unhealed, and have at most 15 HP left (if waterfall does minimum damage). If Meditite switches in on Dwebble, then it is likely to take a knock off to the face, putting it in the same situation as the first three.
Carvanha
Completely different mon, and I'm sad that you put it in the same group.
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Fake out and bullet punch cannot KO. In addition, Carvanha can avoid damage from fake out with protect.
Chinchou
Scald can burn, and Volt Switch lets your opponent get their check out without something dying and Meditite at less than full HP.
Magnemite
236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO.
Magnemite also usually runs max speed, which lets it outspeed that Meditite set given.
Incidentally, Flash Cannon has a 68.4% chance to 2HKO after rocks.
Trubbish
Trubbish can still do a whole lot of damage.
36 Atk Trubbish Gunk Shot vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Weakens it significantly, to the point that it's easy to check, especially as Meditite isn't healing through drain punch.
Porygon
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Porygon does a massive amount of damage, but doesn't outspeed to 2HKO. Unless, of course, it gets lucky and burns, paralyzes, or freezes, any of which will probably let porygon win. Not 100% safe.
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 24-30 (92.3 - 115.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Not guaranteed, which also goes to show how bulky Porygon is.
Ferroseed
I agree here, although thunder wave is annoying and Meditite takes damage from Iron Barbs.
Munchlax
I also agree here, although Meditite won't appreciate paralysis from Body Slam. In addition, if Munchlax manages to paralyze on the switch, it has a 12.1% chance to 2HKO with Body Slam if it runs adamant.
Archen
Meditite cannot switch in on acrobatics Archen, and if it runs 116 defense, it will survive all but two high damage roll bullet punch and fake out.
Fletchling
If rocks are up, Fletchling has an 81.3% chance to OHKO with no item acrobatics. Even full HP has a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed.
Obviously Meditite cannot come in on this.
Abra
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Meditite cannot reliably switch in.
Adding more...
Croagunk
Meditite can easily switch in on Croagunk, although it does lose full HP status.
Cottonee
Cottonee can force an encore if you use fake out, forcing Meditite out. In addition, if it uses leech seed, then it can drain Meditite of health before removing itself from the equation. Dazzling gleam also does a significant chunk of damage.
Drilbur
Meditite will most likely lose if rocks are up (236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) or if Drilbur has used swords dance (+2 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
Ponyta
If Meditite comes in on will-o-wisp, then it's neutered for the entire match. In addition, if Ponyta uses Flare Blitz, it's a 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spritzee
Spritzee will likely win if you try to check it, and will always win if you try to switch in on it.
Vullaby
You cannot counter Vullaby, but you can check it due to fake out.
Bunnelby
Bunny's common scarf set makes you unable to counter.
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Foongus
You can only come in if something else is asleep.
Gastly
Scarf Gastly or LO Gastly win no matter what.
196+ SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 23-31 (109.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Houndour
You cannot come in safely.
36 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Larvesta
Will-o-wisp, resistance to Drain Punch, and Flame Body make this a bad choice to check either.
Lickitung
Meditite doesn't appreciate knock off from Lickitung either, and also doesn't like paralysis from body slam.
Lileep
Meditite can come in, but ends up taking a fair amount of damage from the final giga drain, leaving it at less than full HP.
Slowpoke
Scald can burn, thunder wave can paralyze, and Meditite can barely 5HKO. Even if you come in with Thunder Punch, burn from scald is still a real concern.
Snover
You can come in, but you'll take a huge amount of damage from blizzard. Fake out and bullet punch does KO, however.
Snubbull
Meditite can deal a lot of damage with Fake out and Bullet Punch, but Snubbull prevents you from switching in with play rough.
"Brokenness is determined by a Pokemon's interaction in the metagame, not by single aspects of the Pokemon (such as stats)." Umm wrong. In fact it's because of stats we are here. For example, without meditite's sky high attack power we wouldn't be discussing how much of a threat it is and how it OHKO or 2HKO a majority of the tier. So due to its high attack power, that is a high contribution to why it may be banned. Murkrow as well as high attack power hitting 19 attack. When you think about it, if you take away murkrow's attacking stats and they were reduced to that of chinchou's it really is that much of a threat. When it comes down to there are always pokemon that you say WOW, look at it's movepool and typing (Noibat for example) and it's lackluster stats bring it down. So i disagree, that brokeness is not determined with just it's interaction with the metagame. Ability and power go a long way too.
"Brokenness is determined by a Pokemon's interaction in the metagame, not by single aspects of the Pokemon (such as stats)." Umm wrong. In fact it's because of stats we are here. For example, without meditite's sky high attack power we wouldn't be discussing how much of a threat it is and how it OHKO or 2HKO a majority of the tier. So due to its high attack power, that is a high contribution to why it may be banned. Murkrow as well as high attack power hitting 19 attack. When you think about it, if you take away murkrow's attacking stats and they were reduced to that of chinchou's it really is that much of a threat. When it comes down to there are always pokemon that you say WOW, look at it's movepool and typing (Noibat for example) and it's lackluster stats bring it down. So i disagree, that brokeness is not determined with just it's interaction with the metagame. Ability and power go a long way too.
If a pokemon has no impact on the metagame, then there is no reason to ban it. Take Swirlix. Not really the greatest stats. However, it's myriad of sets forced you to run more than one check. Thats negative interaction with the metagame. Admittedly, this is because of Unburden + its giant movepool. If a pokemon has good stats but interacted with the meta in a positive way (see, Misdreavus/Mienfoo/Timburr [most A ranks]) then its not really broken. So I'd say a pokemon's stats/movepool/etc is directly proportional to their interaction in the metagame (be it for better or worse), which is directly proportional to how "broken" they are.
Stats are important to determinate if a mon is broken or not, but it isn't the only factor. Merritt, I wouldn't consider a mon having difficulties dealing with set up mons as a drawback. All pokemon have a hard time with this, doesn't if it is a wallbreaker,sweeper,cleric,wall or anything else. An average player shouldn't even letting the opponent set up. Definitely, tite being not able to answer against set up mons isn't a drawback.
1) Although Spritzee might not have been the greatest example, my point is that as a wallbreaker it has difficulty doing its job against things that have a setup move. As for your point about the offensive sweepers taking 50% or more, that's great, but Meditite is still dead at the end.
2) Although Meditite is good at its job, that's all it can do. Also, if it's a liability on your team, then why would you run it on your team? That is either an awful definition of a drawback or you phrased it badly.
3) Thunder Punch Meditite is "preferred" over both Fire Punch and Poison Jab. As has been shown repeatedly, just because something isn't likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Meditite is not a 100% check to +2 Pawniard. Also, yes, it's a made up idea. So was the first person to say "hey, let's run poison jab on meditite to beat spritzee". It's not as preferred as Thunder Punch, but, as a major point of contention over Meditite's brokenness, it's not being discarded like you appear to be trying to do to that EV spread.
4) I don't even... Meditite and Murkrow are completely different. How did you get that ?
5) First, I was responding to your specific challenge to name some drawbacks, not responding to your post as a whole. Second, since when was Misdreavus not threatening? It probably forces you out or it kills you, and has coverage to kill whatever you switch in, or it can neuter it with a burn. Also, you're telling me you've never gotten swept lategame by a fletchling, who is absolutely threatening.
And as for your last point, here's my response to post 144, specifically for Meditite switching in.
If you run both fake out and bullet punch, then everything Meditite gets by with a coverage move walls it. Spritzee walls it pretty well, Slowpoke walls it to hell and back, Honedge doesn't even care.
Hidden to take up less space.
Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy
It can switch in, but once knocked off (which does pretty decent damage from any of them), it is easily revenge killed. A one for one exchange, which isn't bad at all.
Pawniard
Meditite cannot switch in on Pawniard safely.
Dwebble/Tirtouga
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meditite cannot switch in on Tirtouga if it has already shell smashed, however it can switch in on the turn it smashes. It will, however, take a large amount of damage from waterfall that will remain unhealed, and have at most 15 HP left (if waterfall does minimum damage). If Meditite switches in on Dwebble, then it is likely to take a knock off to the face, putting it in the same situation as the first three.
Carvanha
Completely different mon, and I'm sad that you put it in the same group.
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Fake out and bullet punch cannot KO. In addition, Carvanha can avoid damage from fake out with protect.
Chinchou
Scald can burn, and Volt Switch lets your opponent get their check out without something dying and Meditite at less than full HP.
Magnemite
236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO.
Magnemite also usually runs max speed, which lets it outspeed that Meditite set given.
Incidentally, Flash Cannon has a 68.4% chance to 2HKO after rocks.
Trubbish
Trubbish can still do a whole lot of damage.
36 Atk Trubbish Gunk Shot vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Weakens it significantly, to the point that it's easy to check, especially as Meditite isn't healing through drain punch.
Porygon
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Porygon does a massive amount of damage, but doesn't outspeed to 2HKO. Unless, of course, it gets lucky and burns, paralyzes, or freezes, any of which will probably let porygon win. Not 100% safe.
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 24-30 (92.3 - 115.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Not guaranteed, which also goes to show how bulky Porygon is.
Ferroseed
I agree here, although thunder wave is annoying and Meditite takes damage from Iron Barbs.
Munchlax
I also agree here, although Meditite won't appreciate paralysis from Body Slam. In addition, if Munchlax manages to paralyze on the switch, it has a 12.1% chance to 2HKO with Body Slam if it runs adamant.
Archen
Meditite cannot switch in on acrobatics Archen, and if it runs 116 defense, it will survive all but two high damage roll bullet punch and fake out.
Fletchling
If rocks are up, Fletchling has an 81.3% chance to OHKO with no item acrobatics. Even full HP has a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed.
Obviously Meditite cannot come in on this.
Abra
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Meditite cannot reliably switch in.
Adding more...
Croagunk
Meditite can easily switch in on Croagunk, although it does lose full HP status.
Cottonee
Cottonee can force an encore if you use fake out, forcing Meditite out. In addition, if it uses leech seed, then it can drain Meditite of health before removing itself from the equation. Dazzling gleam also does a significant chunk of damage.
Drilbur
Meditite will most likely lose if rocks are up (236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) or if Drilbur has used swords dance (+2 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
Ponyta
If Meditite comes in on will-o-wisp, then it's neutered for the entire match. In addition, if Ponyta uses Flare Blitz, it's a 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spritzee
Spritzee will likely win if you try to check it, and will always win if you try to switch in on it.
Vullaby
You cannot counter Vullaby, but you can check it due to fake out.
Bunnelby
Bunny's common scarf set makes you unable to counter.
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Foongus
You can only come in if something else is asleep.
Gastly
Scarf Gastly or LO Gastly win no matter what.
196+ SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 23-31 (109.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Houndour
You cannot come in safely.
36 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Larvesta
Will-o-wisp, resistance to Drain Punch, and Flame Body make this a bad choice to check either.
Lickitung
Meditite doesn't appreciate knock off from Lickitung either, and also doesn't like paralysis from body slam.
Lileep
Meditite can come in, but ends up taking a fair amount of damage from the final giga drain, leaving it at less than full HP.
Slowpoke
Scald can burn, thunder wave can paralyze, and Meditite can barely 5HKO. Even if you come in with Thunder Punch, burn from scald is still a real concern.
Snover
You can come in, but you'll take a huge amount of damage from blizzard. Fake out and bullet punch does KO, however.
Snubbull
Meditite can deal a lot of damage with Fake out and Bullet Punch, but Snubbull prevents you from switching in with play rough.
Again do I need to say that Meditite does not necessarily be jesus to be considered broken, as long as it is too strong or has an unhealthy effect on the metagame it still deserves a ban. Outside of maybe Sneasel and Tangela, no Pokemon could do everything and be able to beat a counter setting up on it. You also need to keep in mind that Meditite doesn't just wallbreak, there is the Eviolite set which gives you solid bulk to add on a team, so IN THE CASE that a mon is knocked out Meditite has an easy switchin. With Eviolite and an SR resistance it has all the longevity with Drain Punch to keep itself alive and continue to do its job. There isn't much else when it comes to wallbreakers of that power, with as many opportunities to switchin as it has along with the longevity that Meditite offers to the table. You also need to realize that it has other sets like Scarf which lets it clean and makes it much harder to revenge kill. Even if those sets have their own faults, that still shows Meditite has the capacity to do more than just wallbreak and die.
1) Although Spritzee might not have been the greatest example, my point is that as a wallbreaker it has difficulty doing its job against things that have a setup move. As for your point about the offensive sweepers taking 50% or more, that's great, but Meditite is still dead at the end.
2) Although Meditite is good at its job, that's all it can do. Also, if it's a liability on your team, then why would you run it on your team? That is either an awful definition of a drawback or you phrased it badly.
3) Thunder Punch Meditite is "preferred" over both Fire Punch and Poison Jab. As has been shown repeatedly, just because something isn't likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Meditite is not a 100% check to +2 Pawniard. Also, yes, it's a made up idea. So was the first person to say "hey, let's run poison jab on meditite to beat spritzee". It's not as preferred as Thunder Punch, but, as a major point of contention over Meditite's brokenness, it's not being discarded like you appear to be trying to do to that EV spread.
4) I don't even... Meditite and Murkrow are completely different. How did you get that ?
5) First, I was responding to your specific challenge to name some drawbacks, not responding to your post as a whole. Second, since when was Misdreavus not threatening? It probably forces you out or it kills you, and has coverage to kill whatever you switch in, or it can neuter it with a burn. Also, you're telling me you've never gotten swept lategame by a fletchling, who is absolutely threatening.
Sorry in advance if this sounds snarky but you have to cut me some slack at least I'm trying to give anti-ban people a chance to sound well-spoken enough to get chosen for council.
1) Stop. This argument is based on a false premise. It doesn't make any sense. Being a "wall breaker" has nothing to do with switching into set up Pokemon. Additionally, almost nothing can set up on it. If Spritzee switches into Meditite (I have no fucking clue why you think it's the other way around) and tries to set up Calm Mind it loses to Psycho Cut or ZHB.
2) No a Pokemon can have drawbacks without being bad. FOR EXAMPLE, Murkrow's drawback is that it's frail and can't switch into most neutral hits but its offensive power and ability to destroy 1-2 Pokemon when is in it's in makes it not a bad Pokemon. Meditite's drawback could be that once it kills something it can be revenge killed by Murkrow's Brave Bird which is a hard move to switch into but Meditite's longevity (for example) makes up for it. No one has listed a drawback that hasn't been addressed or is irrelevant - that was my point. You're sort of helping me prove it.
3) You are missing the point of a check. It can check most Swords Dance variants even AFTER a Swords Dance but I never said it can reliably counter it. Fact: it checks most Pawniard variants. Saying it doesn't always counter one specific variant that doesn't even show up on the usage stats is an example of something that makes me want to say "so??".
4) You said Murkrow is fast so it doesn't come up with the same problems. I said, again, "so??" because it's irrelevant to Meditite's banning status (unless Murkrow is deemed not broken).
5) Misdreavus is threatening and so is Fletchling, if you're familiar with any of my teams or battles you would know I definitely use both of them (particularly the latter) all of the time. They are not, however, as threatening or durable as Meditite and if you do the calcs (as i fucking have to repeat again) Meditite actually tends to survive and KO Fletchling or severely weaken Misdreavus. Meaning, if the best argument against banning Meditite is "Meditite can check something then KO or weaken most revenge killers but it sometimes dies" then, well, I guess that speaks for itself.
If you run both fake out and bullet punch, then everything Meditite gets by with a coverage move walls it. Spritzee walls it pretty well, Slowpoke walls it to hell and back, Honedge doesn't even care.
Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy
It can switch in, but once knocked off (which does pretty decent damage from any of them), it is easily revenge killed. A one for one exchange, which isn't bad at all.
Pawniard
Meditite cannot switch in on Pawniard safely.
Dwebble/Tirtouga
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Meditite cannot switch in on Tirtouga if it has already shell smashed, however it can switch in on the turn it smashes. It will, however, take a large amount of damage from waterfall that will remain unhealed, and have at most 15 HP left (if waterfall does minimum damage). If Meditite switches in on Dwebble, then it is likely to take a knock off to the face, putting it in the same situation as the first three.
Carvanha
Completely different mon, and I'm sad that you put it in the same group.
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Fake out and bullet punch cannot KO. In addition, Carvanha can avoid damage from fake out with protect.
Chinchou
Scald can burn, and Volt Switch lets your opponent get their check out without something dying and Meditite at less than full HP.
Magnemite
236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO.
Magnemite also usually runs max speed, which lets it outspeed that Meditite set given.
Incidentally, Flash Cannon has a 68.4% chance to 2HKO after rocks.
Trubbish
Trubbish can still do a whole lot of damage.
36 Atk Trubbish Gunk Shot vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Weakens it significantly, to the point that it's easy to check, especially as Meditite isn't healing through drain punch.
Porygon
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Porygon does a massive amount of damage, but doesn't outspeed to 2HKO. Unless, of course, it gets lucky and burns, paralyzes, or freezes, any of which will probably let porygon win. Not 100% safe.
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 24-30 (92.3 - 115.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Not guaranteed, which also goes to show how bulky Porygon is.
Ferroseed
I agree here, although thunder wave is annoying and Meditite takes damage from Iron Barbs.
Munchlax
I also agree here, although Meditite won't appreciate paralysis from Body Slam. In addition, if Munchlax manages to paralyze on the switch, it has a 12.1% chance to 2HKO with Body Slam if it runs adamant.
Archen
Meditite cannot switch in on acrobatics Archen, and if it runs 116 defense, it will survive all but two high damage roll bullet punch and fake out.
Fletchling
If rocks are up, Fletchling has an 81.3% chance to OHKO with no item acrobatics. Even full HP has a 6.3% chance to be OHKOed.
Obviously Meditite cannot come in on this.
Abra
236 SpA Life Orb Abra Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Meditite cannot reliably switch in.
Adding more...
Croagunk
Meditite can easily switch in on Croagunk, although it does lose full HP status.
Cottonee
Cottonee can force an encore if you use fake out, forcing Meditite out. In addition, if it uses leech seed, then it can drain Meditite of health before removing itself from the equation. Dazzling gleam also does a significant chunk of damage.
Drilbur
Meditite will most likely lose if rocks are up (236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) or if Drilbur has used swords dance (+2 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
Ponyta
If Meditite comes in on will-o-wisp, then it's neutered for the entire match. In addition, if Ponyta uses Flare Blitz, it's a 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spritzee
Spritzee will likely win if you try to check it, and will always win if you try to switch in on it.
Vullaby
You cannot counter Vullaby, but you can check it due to fake out.
Bunnelby
Bunny's common scarf set makes you unable to counter.
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Meditite: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Foongus
You can only come in if something else is asleep.
Gastly
Scarf Gastly or LO Gastly win no matter what.
196+ SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 23-31 (109.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Houndour
You cannot come in safely.
36 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Larvesta
Will-o-wisp, resistance to Drain Punch, and Flame Body make this a bad choice to check either.
Lickitung
Meditite doesn't appreciate knock off from Lickitung either, and also doesn't like paralysis from body slam.
Lileep
Meditite can come in, but ends up taking a fair amount of damage from the final giga drain, leaving it at less than full HP.
Slowpoke
Scald can burn, thunder wave can paralyze, and Meditite can barely 5HKO. Even if you come in with Thunder Punch, burn from scald is still a real concern.
Snover
You can come in, but you'll take a huge amount of damage from blizzard. Fake out and bullet punch does KO, however.
Snubbull
Meditite can deal a lot of damage with Fake out and Bullet Punch, but Snubbull prevents you from switching in with play rough.
Mienfoo/Timburr/Scraggy - Checks all of them. Counters all of them and heals on them. Nothing new was brought up. Pawniard - All Pawniard are checked and a few variants are countered and Meditite heals its HP. Nothing new was brought up. Dwebble/Tirtouga - Can switch into Shell Smash or Waterfall / Earthquake and Fake Out + Drain Punch lets it heal and KO. Nothing new was brought up. Carvanha - Still checked by Meditite. Nothing new was brought up. Chinchou - Still beaten 1 on 1 by Meditite. Nothing new was brought up. Magnemite - Still 100% check to Magnemite. Can counter the common Thunderbolt-less Magnemite rather safely without SR up. Nothing new was brought up. Trubbish - Trubbish 3HKOes Meditite and Meditite OHKOes back. Pure counter. Nothing new was brought up. Porygon - Fake Out + Drain Punch always KOes Porygon and it can't OHKO it. Pure counter. Nothing new was brought up. Ferroseed - Nothing new was brought up. Munchlax - Nothing new was brought up. Archen - Can still check Archen (Drain Punch, Bullet Punch, Bullet Punch beats the Berry Juice Acro variant). Nothing new was brought up. Fletchling - 6.3% to check Fletchling. Nothing new was brought up. Abra - Easily checks with Fake Out + Bullet Punch. Nothing new was brought up.
The rest I didn't even list but I'll take the free points.
Croagunk - Can group with the other Fighting-types. Cottonee - Can check with Bullet Punch / ZHB. Drilbur - Counters without rocks up (which it usually is setting up anyway). Checks any variant. Ponyta - We knew that already. Note: Ponyta can't reliably switch in. Spritzee - Why on earth you think Meditite needs to check Spritzee is beyond me and the rest of the people reading this. Vullaby - We knew that already. It also can't switch in. Bunnelby - It's actually 51% chance to KO with Fake Out + Bullet Punch after SR. That's kind of ironic. Foongus - Lol. Yea it can't switch in and Meditite has no trouble taking Giga Drain or Clear Smog. Gastly - We knew that already. Also can't switch into anything besides Drain Punch. Houndour - Houndour is checked. Larvesta - Can't switch in if SR is up. Lickitung - Pure counters Lickitung. Lileep - Pure counters Lileep. Slowpoke - We knew that already. Snover - Pure counters Snover Snubbull - Again, why in the fuck are you switching Meditite into this? You get switched into. And I believe Meditite 3HKOes. Zigzagoon - You win, lets ban everything that doesn't survive a +6 ExtremeSpeed. Still beats it one on one.
You either don't understand how a check works, don't understand how a set up sweeper works, or don't understand how to use Meditite (I'm mostly convinced of the latter) because you're either (whether deliberate or not) forgetting Fake Out or under/overstating most situations (like saying Meditite can "only" check something or Meditite can't switch into +6 Zigzagoon). I have no idea what point you're trying to make by recycled already addressed or irrelevant facts. Do you realize that something can be broken without switching into its own counters? I thought that was common sense. Further more, it not only checks one of these Pokemon at a time but it also keeps plowing through with Drain Punch.
It would be best for your argument's sake to post something new that wasn't addressed already. And also you would need to explain why having 4-5 (or even like 10 or 15) viable counters prevent something from being broken if it beats like 25 of the top 30 Pokemon (and counters like 10 of them)?
Not that this really weakens your argument, but you can obviously switch into Drain Punches/HJK/Thunder Punch. I do it pretty often in scenarios that I can't afford something else receiving one of those hits, and then double switching into something else. Full health foongus also lives psycho cuts (not that it wants to take them) MOST of the time. It's also pretty niche because you don't have that kind of opportunity often.
Honestly, that has been the single most convincing post for a pro-ban argument for Meditite to me (not that I'm implying that's what you said, you clearly didn't). That is a fairly large portion of (what is considered) viable Pokemon that it just rolls through.
Not that this really weakens your argument, but you can obviously switch into Drain Punches/HJK/Thunder Punch. I do it pretty often in scenarios that I can't afford something else receiving one of those hits, and then double switching into something else. Full health foongus also lives psycho cuts (not that it wants to take them) MOST of the time. It's also pretty niche because you don't have that kind of opportunity often.
Honestly, that has been the single most convincing post for a pro-ban argument for Meditite to me (not that I'm implying that's what you said, you clearly didn't). That is a fairly large portion of (what is considered) viable Pokemon that it just rolls through.
First my little cent about that. I'm sorry for delay but my job is quite "destructive" in this moment. I want to read you first and write my thinking after I read carefully what you are express with your topics about.
I have just talked-about on votes suspects threads but i want to tell that another time. It's very good to vote together what we would suspect but i think it's not so good, vote more than one suspect pokemon/combo.
My little (general) cent, I hope that the mon/combo/ability that we'll find to decide about, will be only one. Multiple suspects I don't think it could be better. When you decide "that's broken" or not, we refer about a clear-cut against everything else. We could find two different in suspect-phase and they balance themselves. Ban only one could deliver an unbalance tier more than nowadays.
I think we can compare "one vs everything else" and simultaneously "another one vs everything else again". Because what we are banning is in "everything else" at least one time.
Absolutely. For your scenario, it was assumed to be eviolite priority, I only meant it can be used as a pivot. I use it as such pretty often. If it's a choice set, that's an entirely different story (because now I know you're locked into the move and can abuse it). It wasn't anything against your argument as a whole - Foongus is absolutely not the best thing to switch into Meditite.
My little (general) cent, I hope that the mon/combo/ability that we'll find to decide about, will be only one. Multiple suspects I don't think it could be better.
In general I agree with this, but not when it's so obvious what one suspects effect on another will be. If Meditite is broken now (I'm not saying it is), then it would only be stronger when such a common threat is taken out of the equation. If we were suspecting berry juice/eviolite and knock off at the same time, I wouldn't be able to commit to voting both out - those are entirely different discussions though. Those are the kind of suspects that could have very obvious ripple effects (e.g., taking out knock off could make berry juice broken if it stayed in). Edit: But this isn't even the focus point of this suspect, so this kind of discussion should be reserved for the next suspect test.
Sorry for the late post and all, but I hope that my opinion will not be null.
1) Is Murkrow broken?
Yes, and its already been proven why so I won't go into that.
2) Is Meditite Broken?
Yes, but I may have an odd view on this.
I have made some observations and found that on average each pokemon on an LC team can knock out one pokemon or serves enough purposes to provide its teammates with a more assisted win. In such for every 1 pokemon you will want the maximum amount of purposes served to provide your team with the best teammates possible. The lower the ratio the less useful it is and usually only in the team to provide a counter to one specific pokemon. On the contrary the more purposes it serves and the more fun it is for the user to use the more fluid the match is for the player. After some testing and observations I have come to see that Meditite forces a change in a otherwise fluid meta, forcing teams to lower one of the party members to run a much lower ratio, sometimes as low as 1:1. Not only does this make people want to play with their team less because it makes the team feel a bit less like "yours", but it restricts team-building and makes the tier less fun to play overall. I have to go right now but I may be able to finish this post. hope this provides a different perspective on the topic.
i've been thinking for a long time about Meditite's position, since the community's perspective on that seems really split-up (unlike Murkrow's)
When i was defending Meditite before, my main argument was something along the lines of:"there are a lot of ghost- and dark types, so it's a 50/50 between a kill or a free setup/turn/kill for the opponent." However, my argument was too rapidly stated and thought of, and to be honest, i've been convinced by people in this thread that meditite is indeed broken.
There are two things that Meditite does very well: Revenge killing with Fake Out+Bullet Punch and putting holes in stuff with it's devastating STAB's. It obviously suffers very much from the four moveslot syndrome, which means it can't take out everything it can't potentially take out, but the opponent doesn't know what it can potentially take out, and thus his Spritzee might still get 2hko'd by a super-effective Poison Jab.
What i'm really trying to say is that the ability to potentially 2hko every Pokémon on the opposing team is what breaks meditite. If there was just one, clear cut counter who could switch into meditite multiple times during a match, it would change things around completely (unless said mon can be lured/trapped easily). However, we lack that, and are left with nothing to stop Meditite from what it does.
I'm sorry, I assumed that you would try to read what you actually quoted. I said "specifically for Meditite switching in", to address the issue of meditite's difficulty causing a more than a 1:1 scenario without having something else die first.
Your points about checking, as such, were barely a response at all.
1) I give up.
2) I address that below.
3) You cannot 100% say that at half of all Pawniard running swords dance have 236+ attack EVs, or if you can I'd very kindly ask you to direct me to it. Just because the set currently going through QC (which also has SD as the second slashed move, it's not called the "swords dance set") runs 156 attack EVs doesn't mean that it's what SD pawn currently run. What I can show you is that Meditite doesn't even have Fire Punch as one of the moves, instead being group into "other", in the LC suspect test statistics, which obviously makes Honedge an extremely reliable counter, goin by your logic.
4) I placed that sentence badly. Suffice to say, it was meant to be a point towards Krow's brokenness, not towards comparing it to Meditite.
5) If Meditite has suffered any damage whatsoever, be it from rocks or taking a single hit from something faster than it that it doesn't kill with Drain Punch, or if it has been knocked off, then Fletchling and Misdreavus have an 81.3% chance to OHKO. That is where Meditite's slowness really comes into play, as that Trubbish you easily OHKO with psycho cut hits you with drain punch, and instantly Meditite's either forced out or almost certainly dies. That, in itself, makes it all but impossible for Meditite to switch in.
heysup said:
FOR EXAMPLE, Murkrow's drawback is that it's frail and can't switch into most neutral hits but its offensive power and ability to destroy 1-2 Pokemon when is in it's in makes it not a bad Pokemon.
232+ SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Murkrow: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I want to point out that either Murkrow isn't frail, or Meditite is not bulky. Murkrow also has access to priority healing in prankster roost, while Meditite must rely on drain punch, making it vulnerable to being damaged and taken out by something faster if it uses its psychic STAB to beat something.
After thinking about it for a while, the main drawback I can see for meditite is that it's overly reliant on its item in a metagame where the arguably best move is knock off. If meditite loses its [Eviolite/Life Orb/Choice Scarf], then it instantly becomes prone to losing functionality. Of the previous banned mons, sneasel barely even cared about knock off, as it had plenty of power already and resisted the move, tangela didn't love taking it, but could still function perfectly well without its item due to its insane defense and special attack, yanma was one of the few that didn't like it, gligar was in a similar boat as tangela, and swirlix's whole thing was losing its item. The fastest way to see the evidence of this is to look at the March moveset Berry Juice usage stats, as Berry Juice on something without recycle often means that the Pokemon is capable of working without an item. Of the top ten, only Meditite doesn't even have Berry Juice listed, showing a massive dependence on item.
The arguments for pro-banning have absolutely been relatively convincing, and on Heysup's scale of brokenness I'd put myself at a 4.75 up from a 4. I still don't think Meditite deserves to go yet, partly because I'd be interested in seeing how it fares in a metagame where things that fell away due to Murkrow, such as Honedge, rise up in viability.
TBH Meditite is not that much worse without an item. For some teams I've run, it's my most common Knock Off switch-in (for Fighting-types). I guess no Eviolite is annoying but it's not the biggest of deals.
Switch on a fighting type using knock off and even losing eviolite, you will still force that mon out. Of course, without eviolite it is easily KOed by its checks, but it still has a lot of power to wreck the opponent. Tite can switch into most knock off users not named pawniard.
I'm sorry, I assumed that you would try to read what you actually quoted. I said "specifically for Meditite switching in", to address the issue of meditite's difficulty causing a more than a 1:1 scenario without having something else die first.
Your points about checking, as such, were barely a response at all.
When you respond to a point, you can't pick and choose little parts of the argument to (poorly) refute and ignore the rest of it and still conclude that the entirety of the argument is wrong. That's a logical fallacy. It's also illogical to assume that an argument wasn't addressed when a more encompassing point was proven. For example, your point is further weakened by the fact Meditite can switch into almost HALF (I think like 16 of 34?) of the Pokemon in your list (which I stated) and addressed your "specifically for Meditite switching in" point but took it further to say that it beats like 27 of them.
Another point I made previously is that certain Pokemon (namely Spritzee/Slowpoke etc) that will be switching into Meditite (not the other way around) will not be hitting Meditite with an attack ever unless you play Pokemon like a NPC in the cartridge games.
1) I give up.
2) I address that below.
3) You cannot 100% say that at half of all Pawniard running swords dance have 236+ attack EVs, or if you can I'd very kindly ask you to direct me to it. Just because the set currently going through QC (which also has SD as the second slashed move, it's not called the "swords dance set") runs 156 attack EVs doesn't mean that it's what SD pawn currently run. What I can show you is that Meditite doesn't even have Fire Punch as one of the moves, instead being group into "other", in the LC suspect test statistics, which obviously makes Honedge an extremely reliable counter, goin by your logic.
4) I placed that sentence badly. Suffice to say, it was meant to be a point towards Krow's brokenness, not towards comparing it to Meditite.
5) If Meditite has suffered any damage whatsoever, be it from rocks or taking a single hit from something faster than it that it doesn't kill with Drain Punch, or if it has been knocked off, then Fletchling and Misdreavus have an 81.3% chance to OHKO. That is where Meditite's slowness really comes into play, as that Trubbish you easily OHKO with psycho cut hits you with drain punch, and instantly Meditite's either forced out or almost certainly dies. That, in itself, makes it all but impossible for Meditite to switch in.
Point 3) not only doesn't refute my point 2), it also doesn't deal with my point 3). You did not address my point of drawbacks (you didn't even mention it). Zooming in on a hypothetical situation in which Pawniard would beat Meditite after a Swords Dance is not only mostly irrelevant (since revenging a +2 Pawniard is not a big argument for it in the first place) but the actual facts and stats are not in your favor. It is more reasonable to assume that they aren't Adamant max attack considering the spread isn't listed. Either way, the spread in terms of ALL Pawniard is weakened or specifically Swords Dance is weakened by the stats, both come out in my favor. I also already clarified that Honedge and Slowpoke (etc) can switch into this Meditite and still be broken.
You still need to prove that having ~2-3 counters in the top ~34 Pokemon is enough to outweigh it beating ~27 of them.
232+ SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 7-10 (36.8 - 52.6%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Murkrow: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meditite: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Meditite: 14-20 (73.6 - 105.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I want to point out that either Murkrow isn't frail, or Meditite is not bulky. Murkrow also has access to priority healing in prankster roost, while Meditite must rely on drain punch, making it vulnerable to being damaged and taken out by something faster if it uses its psychic STAB to beat something.
Meditite vs Murkrow, again, is irrelevant and you missed the entire point of the analogy. I'm trying to help you understand a drawback and you're making it into an argument about something else that wasn't part of the argument in the first place. Who cares? Also Eviolite Krow is not something people are too concerned about and you forgot to put 116 HP EVs into Meditite which makes it avoid some of those 2HKOes.
After thinking about it for a while, the main drawback I can see for meditite is that it's overly reliant on its item in a metagame where the arguably best move is knock off. If meditite loses its [Eviolite/Life Orb/Choice Scarf], then it instantly becomes prone to losing functionality. Of the previous banned mons, sneasel barely even cared about knock off, as it had plenty of power already and resisted the move, tangela didn't love taking it, but could still function perfectly well without its item due to its insane defense and special attack, yanma was one of the few that didn't like it, gligar was in a similar boat as tangela, and swirlix's whole thing was losing its item. The fastest way to see the evidence of this is to look at the March moveset Berry Juice usage stats, as Berry Juice on something without recycle often means that the Pokemon is capable of working without an item. Of the top ten, only Meditite doesn't even have Berry Juice listed, showing a massive dependence on item.
The arguments for pro-banning have absolutely been relatively convincing, and on Heysup's scale of brokenness I'd put myself at a 4.75 up from a 4. I still don't think Meditite deserves to go yet, partly because I'd be interested in seeing how it fares in a metagame where things that fell away due to Murkrow, such as Honedge, rise up in viability.
Everyone who has used Meditite or fought against it understands that it does not require an item to switch into common Fighting-types which would be its primary roll.
edit: Edited to remove some of the attitude. I still left some in, don't worry.
Merritt, When we say Murkrow is frail or dies to quickly in comparison to Meditite it's not really the calcs. It's the resistance to SR vs Weakness to SR, how much investment in EVs you can afford to run, resistance to Fighting and how Meditite's most common sets have DP, of course Murkrow has roost but you were comparing offensive options, so people would quickly assume the Life Orb set. Meditite tanks Knock Off very well it is not reliant on its item. imo Meditite is actually one of the better Knock Off tankers in the game so this point you are making about item dependency is not just exaggerated, but straight up bullshit (sorry, can't think of another way to say it) At this point I really feel you can just assume a bunch of stuff about Meditite for the sake of saying it's not broken. I also wanna say that Honedge is similar to Elygem in the sense that it's good against Meditite but not really too good against the rest of the meta, but still viable mainly because of Meditite's existence (mainly, not solely) I understand they are two viable pokes. However, I will go back to the case of Tornadus-T in BW OU, where things like Bronzong, Jirachi and Rotom-W existed, along with reliance of team support With Jirachi and Rotom-W in BW OU probably being more viable than Elygem and Honedge.
If these niche mons that counter Meditite deem it unbroken, Torn-T would still exist in BW OU. The setting might be a bit different, but that's just my outlook on it.
EDIT: Sorry if things are a bit too brief or unbacked, I'm trying to cut down on the length of my posts here.
Basically going to be repeating what everyone else has said here, but whatever.
Anyways, I think most people who've played LC know that Murkrow is broken. It has a ton of sets that are all very effective, such as Mixed Attacker, Substitute Attacker, and the ever-annoying SubSwagger. 19 Speed is super fast, and allows Murkrow to easily outspeed a ton of Pokemon in the tier. Even if it doesn't outspeed the Pokemon, it at least has a STAB Sucker Punch to throw around. Prankster is another great thing Murkrow has access too; having Prankster Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Tailwind can all be great moves to help support the team. Finally, with the Dark-type buff, there are very few Pokemon that want to switch into Murkrow at all. Basically, Murkrow's extreme versatility and large Speed stat make is a powerful threat.
Now, on the the more controversial one: Meditite. I think I'm going to have to go with broken with Meditite as well. It's super powerful with its dual-STABs and the elemental punches, thanks to Pure Power. It also has access to dual priority in Fake Out and Bullet Punch, meaning it's a good revenge killer even with it's only decent Speed stat. Meditite is really hard to switch into, especially if it is Life Orb. A lot of people label Spritzee as a counter, but it's really only a check to Life Orb Meditite (196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Zen Headbutt vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). It's super easy to predict who's going to be switching into Meditite, too, so using Zen Headbutt on a predicted switch has always been a super easy thing to do. Eviolite is another item Meditite has, which gives it much more staying power, allowing to dish out more damage. Overall, while Meditite is definitely one of those "borderline" broken Pokemon, it's still broken.
