Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

[EonX]

FLCL , yeah, I wasn't trying to say to use Ice Beam over Wood Hammer. (shits on Milotic too) I was moreso getting at using Ice Beam as your Ice STAB on a defensive set, but the OHKO on Shaymin would be p. important since HP Fire is doing a serious amount of damage.

 

[watashi]

sorry for the confusion but i was responding to the guy above me about wood hammer. i do agree that i should drop blizzard for ice beam

 

[jake]

Yeah, Meloetta is a hugely underrated threat, with both special and physical (mixed, essentially) sets being very potent. Calm Mind Aria-Meloetta has some nice and quirky moves for its STABs, the Sub-piercing Hyper Voice and Psyshock to hit special walls and opposing bulky boosters. Its Special Attack and Special Defense are really high and its Speed respectable, so all-out attacking sets such as Assault Vest and Choice sets isn't too out there. Meanwhile, Piruotte-Meloetta has the highest proprotion of speed and power I've seen out of any attacker in RU thus far, and of course it gets the coveted Knock Off. Relic Song also has a sleep chance as well, just in case you thought you were all set for Piruotte-ta.

Ah, glad I went through to see if anyone else mentioned it. Meloetta-P is kind of a tricky Pokemon to both play around and play with, and that's probably the only thing keeping me from absolutely raving about it. Meloetta-P hits like a truck, and riding 128 base Speed is just phenomenal since you outspeed literally the entire unboosted metagame. It also can change forms somewhat easily, since you can actually tank hits from Pokemon like Raikou (thanks to Meloetta-A's 128 SDef), Relic Song 'em, then shred said Raikou into itty bitty little pieces. (Its set-up move also has a 20% chance to cause sleep, so if you really can't find an opportunity to transform you're lying to yourself). This is the set I'm talking about:

Meloetta @ Life Orb
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Hasty Nature
- Relic Song
- Return
- Close Combat
- Knock Off​

Couple of important points here. Relic Song hits decently hard, and I use a -Def nature not because I want to be some kind of mixed special attacker, but because I want to have the most opportunities to set up as I can. A stronger Relic Song means more chances to kill off weakened Pokemon, so as an example:

0 SpA Life Orb Meloetta Relic Song vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 122-146 (36.52 - 43.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Meloetta Relic Song vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 110-133 (32.93 - 39.82%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO
​

The primary reason to use a -SpA nature here would be to take less damage from priority, so if you're interested in that then go ahead. Truthfully, it probably does not make a huge difference, but in several playtests I never missed the extra defense since I didn't really try to set up on anything physical. One of the funniest responses to Meloetta has been people switching to their AV Escavalier; you Relic Song and do ~17-20%, then CC for an OHKO. It just kind of eats all of those balanced teams or teams that rely on Raikou / Dugtrio to check fast things, shredding everything in sight with base 128 Attack Close Combats (these are the strength of LO Terrakion, fyi).


Buuuut... here's the X factor about this Pokemon that keeps it from dominating everything: Dependence on Relic Song fucks it over, hard. You can't transform into Melo-P because Sableye and friends switch in and block the Relic Song from activating. You can try to use Knock Off on the incoming Ghost-type, but it does pitiful damage from regular Meloetta's Attack. You virtually cannot switch into Meloetta-P if the opponent has a Ghost-type and plays it well. As such, Meloetta's partners should handle Ghost-types well, especially Sableye.

You also lose the transformation if you switch out or are forced out, which really stinks. Both forms of Meloetta are susceptible to some kind of priority (Sucker Punch for Meloetta-A, and Mach Punch for Meloetta-P), and CC defense drops make you fearful of random scarfers or other kinds of priority. Speaking of which, scarfers are another enormous threat; Meloetta-P is not exactly bulky, and after a CC I'm pretty sure any attack from any scarfer would shoot it down. Also, Relic Song goes through Substitutes and is blocked by Soundproof, so be wary of that (I definitely got cockblocked from a sure win by a Soundproof Mr. Mime that I tried to set up on....).

It's super fucking strong and fun though, so there's that.

 

[EonX]

nah, that's my bad FLCL. I didn't see the post inbetween my first one and your response.

Anyway, since Zebraiken so kindly brought up Meloetta, I want to discuss it's ridiculous movepool. Honest to god, this thing has so many options for a moveset, it isn't even funny. It can use Specs, Scarf, CM, and Mixed Relic for offensive sets. Don't want to go for offense? Well, you can do SpDef, SubCM, and AV. That's like 7 different sets that aren't outlandish. It's movepool is ridiculously wide. I'm just going to spoiler its movepool and what sets you could probalby use the moves on:

Movepool yo

Calm Mind - Calm Mind, SubCM
Close Combat - Mixed Relic
Dazzling Gleam - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind
Energy Ball - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
Focus Blast - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, Assault Vest
Grass Knot - Choice Specs , Choice Scarf
Heal Bell - Specially Defensive
Ice Punch - Mixed Relic
Knock Off - Mixed Relic, Specially Defensive, Assault Vest
Perish Song - Specially Defensive
Psychic - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, SubCM, Assault Vest, Specially Defensive
Psyshock - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind, SubCM, Assault Vest
Relic Song - Mixed Relic
Shadow Ball - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Calm Mind
Substitute - SubCM
Thunder Wave - Specially Defensive
Thunderbolt - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
Toxic - Specially Defensive
Trick - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf
U-turn - Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Assault Vest

This is absolutely insane. The crazy part is that only 8 of those moves are restricted to a single set with 2 of them being moves that aren't highly distributed (Heal Bell and Perish Song) and one being Meloetta's signature move (Relic Song) This really allows you to customize the set you use on Meloetta to what your team is more in need of. Here's a set I've tested a little bit that capitalizes on Meloetta's offensive and defensive capabilities:

Meloetta @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpA / 68 SpD
Nature: Modest
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock / Psychic
- U-turn
- Focus Blast​

One of the many sets Meloetta can effectively run is an Assault Vest set. Great 100 / 128 special bulk and a high base 128 Special Attack makes Meloetta a great AV poke. Hyper Voice breaks past Subs which allows Meloetta to be one of the more surefire answers to SubRoost Kyurem. Psyshock nails special walls, but since this Meloetta is more of a tank, Psychic is perfectly usable. U-turn builds momentum on switches that Meloetta forces, and the lack of Speed investment can let Meloetta tank the needed special attack to get a teammate in safely. The last slot is simply used for whatever you need Meloetta to handle. I use Focus Blast to blast Kyurem, but there'a myriad of options. Shadow Ball nails opposing Psychics and takes advantage of your Ghost-type immunity. Dazzling Gleam nails all Dragons (lookin at you Druddigon) while keeping coverage on Dark-types. Grass Knot fucks up Rhyperior's shit (super cool if you have Raikou) and messes with Gastrodon, though Energy Ball is more reliable against it. Heck, you can even use Knock Off if you need more utility support from AV Meloetta. EVs round down passive damage while maximizing overall bulk. 192 Special Attack EVs hits a nature boost point while the 68 Special Defense EVs pumps up Meloetta's special bulk for taking on the likes of Shaymin, Kyurem, and Raikou.

 

[Yellow Cheese]

blizzard guarantees the ohko on shaymin after sr and same goes for wood hammer and mismagius. i suppose ice beam is better than blizzard but wood hammer is needed to beat down certain threats, namely raikou

Dont get me wrong about using Wood hammer, since I know its really powerful even uninvested, but on a RestTalk set it just seemed outclassed by seed bomb

 

[ss234]

o_k so tornadus is incredibly good, probably broken and arguably the best mon in the metagame. Defiant w/ bulk up or w/e is pretty good, but kinda weak if you don't get the +2 from defog because it doesn't run a boosting item seeing as it needs no item for acro. The scariest for me at least is the special set-grass knot, heat wave, hurricane, knock off or taunt or air slash or whatever the fuck you want in the last slot, it doesn't rlly matter as gk / heat wave / hurricane shits on the metagame so hard. Unless you have raikou or spdef registeel(which loses to taunt), then you have to let something die or you are an absolute prediction god. Even then, it will have done what it should-weaken your defensive core so something else can come in and sweep. Torn + dugtrio is an especially deadly combo, because there are only rlly two answers to torn in raikou and registeel(apart from the almighty carbink and stunfisk, ofc)and duggy traps and kills both. You can even run tailwind torn with this sort of combo, due to the number of switches it forces(i.e. what do I sac)you can set-up a tailwind and kill shit. The only real issue with this is that hurricane misses quite a bit, and therefore torn can be somewhat unreliable as a sweeper. As a wallbreaker though, torn is scarily effective at what it does thanks to speed, coverage and the sheer power of hurricane.

another mon that is really good broke is azelf. This doesn't take much introduction-when you've got 125 offenses, killer speed and a fantastic offensive movepool, countering is always going to be pretty much impossible. And outside of stuff like cress azelf is incredibly difficult to switch into, unless you have mons with strong prio / speed and you can predict correctly then you're losing a mon every time. Nasty plot azelf almost single-handedly kills stall, and 4 attacks sets with knock off also do rather against stall. Against more offensive teams, you still have that ridiculous speed tier so you do incredibly well there too. Even revenge killing azelf is quite difficult-while you can revenge it obviously, with things like scarf kyurem / scarf shaymin, azelf can simply switch out and come back in later to wreck shit up again. It doesn't help that these scarfers are ez bait for ass vest esca either. A big issue atm is the lack of quality pursuit users-esca is basically it rn, and obviously that dies to fire blast from azelf so you can't reliably trap it. Even dug fails because of levitate(which also makes azelf an incredibly useful weapon vs. webs). So yeah, azelf is Quite Strong.

k now for some other good mons:

delphox: cm phox is a very powerful poke. Again, like azelf its a specially attacking psychic with a killer movepool and its pretty fast. But while azelf is stronger off the bat, is immune to duggy and has stuff like knock off and u-turn, delphox is bulkier and has calm mind, making delphox a huge threat to bulkier teams unless they use smthing really niche like carbink.

raikou: easily the best torn answer, and that's all you rlly need as justification. But yeah, raikou is real nice. HP grass nukes rhyperior(+1 hp grass w/ life orb 1HKO's afaik), and you can also run things like volt switch and signal beam so that raikou can wear down things like kyu / beat shaymin. Aura sphere is trash.

hitmonlee: best hazard remover for offense-reckless hjk kills p much everything that isn't a ghost / aromatisse. Mach punch is nice for sharpedo too, and knock off is strong vs. ghost types. Poison jab can work for aromatisse and togetic I guess, although you're better off just running mons that can take advantage of fairies(delphox).

esca: very, very bulky on special side, and pretty difficult to switch into because megahorn + iron head + knock off + drill run. Phys def cofag can switch in and burn, but outside of that can't really touch esca. Luckily it gets worn down very easily, and running random hp fires is a good way to weaken it for something else to start doing work. An excellent glue mon as it checks so much, but is vulnerable to overloading with special threats.

froslass / shuckle / insert lead mon: meta is pretty lead orientated atm, with hazards being so deadly. Webs is a lot of fun, but I've found can be pretty inconsistent and struggles a lot against azelf. Froslass can be deadly, spikes pushes a lot of nearly kills into kills but the hazard removers were actually quite a bit better than we thought(lee, togetic).

TL;DR torn / azelf are dumb, but apart from that ru is fun n_n

 

[Yellow Cheese]

delphox: cm phox is a very powerful poke. Again, like azelf its a specially attacking psychic with a killer movepool and its pretty fast. But while azelf is stronger off the bat, is immune to duggy and has stuff like knock off and u-turn, delphox is bulkier and has calm mind, making delphox a huge threat to bulkier teams unless they use smthing really niche like carbink.

No. Just No

I shall now show you every useful move Delphox gets. (STAB in bold)

Hide

-Solar beam
-Grass knot
-Shadow Ball
-Will-o-Wisp
-Switcheroo
-Substitute
-Light screen
-Calm mind
-Flamethrower
-Fire blast
-Psyshock
-Psychic

Now for all the useful moves azelf gets: (STAB in bold

Hide

-Nasty Plot
-Psyshock
-Psychic
-Fire blast
-Explosion
-Calm mind
-Taunt
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow ball
-Flamethrower
-Energy ball
-Charge Beam
-U-turn
-Dazzing gleam
-Fire punch
-Ice punch
-Thunder punch
-Knock off
-Signal beam
-Trick
-Zen headbutt
-Stealth rock
-Thunder wave
-Power-up punch
-Substitute

Dont even try to compare them. Azelf is also mixed, not special

 

[Anty]

After getting into the tier a lot i realised there are no good defoggers (gligar would loose immunity, xatu looses mb) and i didnt want a spinner, so after some testing i decided to go with golbat:
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator*
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Taunt / Toxic / Whirlind
- Brave Bird

With eviolite it has similar bulk to ferrothorn. Thanks to its great typing it hcan wall practicly every physically based poke in the tier apart from rhyperior and medicham. A spdef set is also viable but due stuff like azelf and helieptile, i prefer physically. I suck at explaining so here are some calcs

Hide

52+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage (i know no one uses this but its pretty impressive)
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage (bb 2hko's)
252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 228-270 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO (bb ohko's)
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (wow)
252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 170-204 (48 - 57.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO (golbat can outspeed and taunt)
252 Atk Meloetta-P Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (bb 2hko's)
252+ Atk Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 94-112 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (bb 2hko's, golbat outspeeds 0 spe and has 1/3 chance to ohko after rocks

252 in hp gives it 354 hp, not divisable by 4, im not sure if that is optimum but this thing is bulky and fast, mandibuzz v2

 

[Punchshroom]

The premier RU Dragon of BW, Druddigon, returns with a vengeance (mostly about wanting Kyurem to get the hell off its perch). Good bulk, nice typing offensively and defensively, strong Attack, and usable abilities makes it a champion tank.

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def or Atk / 4 SpD
Impish / Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Glare
- Dragon Tail / Roar
- Earthquake / Sucker Punch / Dragon Claw

Typical tank Druddigon, can be tweaked defensively or offensively. It makes for a good Stealth Rocker, being one of the few users of the move to resist Water and Grass, making it a decent choice. Glare paralyzes anything bar Electric-types, but the only Electric-type that even wants to switch in on Druddigon is Rotom-C, so the odds of paralyzing something are excruciatingly high. Dragon Tail, combined with Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and later Stealth Rock damage, racks up huge damage on contact opponents, but if one wants to actually phase then Roar would be better due to superior accuracy and ability to force out Substitutes. The last move is up to personal preference (obviously do not run 2 Dragon moves on it), depending on how defensively you want to play Druddigon.

Druddigon @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force / Mold Breaker
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch / Earthquake / Dragon Claw

On the other hand, if one does not like their Druddigon being walled or simply wants to make use of its power, then a Sheer Force Life Orb set cranks up the danger factor. Fire Punch nails Escavalier and 2HKOes specially defensive Registeel, the latter of which it outspeeds with 20 Speed EVs. Gunk Shot lays waste to Fairies, mainly Aromatisse, while being very efficient in wiping out Shaymin. Sucker Punch grants priority, which hurts from 120 Base Attack with Life Orb. While it can be very difficult to switch into, none of Druddigon's STABs do not get the Sheer Force boost, meaning Life Orb will take away from its health. It does have Mold Breaker Earthquake though, so that is nice.

Now I know I've bashed it before, but Stunfisk boasts being able to wall Raikou and Tornadus at the same damn time, which is undeniably a cool trait to have.

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Limber Static (don't use Limber lol)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt / Discharge
- Scald

Stunfisk learns Stealth Rock too, so that's something for it I guess. Aside from having the perfect typing to stop ThunderCat and Wind Genie, it has the STABs to deal with them too. Earthquake is chosen over Earth Power for its ability to 2HKO Raikou (and Delphox) regardless of how many Calm Minds they got; even 1 Calm Mind is enough to push Earth Power from a 2HKO to a 3HKO, so Earth Power Stunfisk will face a very uphill battle if it switches in on Calm Mind. Its Electric STAB hits Tornadus for a lot of damage; Thunderbolt is recommended since it more easily pressures Moltres into Roosting into an Eathquake, and Scald is already there as its status move, but Discharge can still be used if you don't mind conflicting status. Note that Grass-types kind of shit all over it, especially Shaymin, so be prepared for that.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Druddigon comes back once more as the premier RU Dragon. Good bulk, nice typing offensively and defensively, strong Attack, and usable abilities makes it a champion tank.

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def or Atk / 4 SpD
Impish / Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Glare
- Dragon Tail / Roar
- Earthquake / Sucker Punch / Dragon Claw

Typical tank Druddigon, can be tweaked defensively or offensively. It makes for a good Stealth Rocker, being one of the few users of the move to resist Water and Grass, making it a decent choice. Glare paralyzes anything bar Electric-types, but the only Electric-type that even wants to switch in on Druddigon is Rotom-C, so the odds of paralyzing something are excruciatingly high. Dragon Tail, combined with Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and later Stealth Rock damage, racks up huge damage on contact opponents, but if one wants to actually phase then Roar would be better due to superior accuracy and ability to force out Substitutes. The last move is up to personal preference (obviously do not run 2 Dragon moves on it), depending on how defensively you want to play Druddigon.

Druddigon @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force / Mold Breaker
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch / Earthquake / Dragon Claw

On the other hand, if one does not like their Druddigon being walled or simply wants to make use of its power, then a Sheer Force Life Orb set cranks up the danger factor. Fire Punch nails Escavalier and 2HKOes specially defensive Registeel, the latter of which it outspeeds with 20 Speed EVs. Gunk Shot lays waste to Fairies, mainly Aromatisse, while being very efficient in wiping out Shaymin. Sucker Punch grants priority, which hurts from 120 Base Attack with Life Orb. While it can be very difficult to switch into, none of Druddigon's STABs do not get the Sheer Force boost, meaning Life Orb will take away from its health. It does have Mold Breaker Earthquake though, so that is nice.

Now I know I've bashed it before, but Stunfisk boasts being able to wall Raikou and Tornadus at the same damn time, which is undeniably a cool trait to have.

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Limber Static (don't use Limber lol)
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt / Discharge
- Scald

Stunfisk learns Stealth Rock too, so that's something for it I guess. Aside from having the perfect typing to stop ThunderCat and Wind Genie, it has the STABs to deal with them too. Earthquake is chosen over Earth Power for its ability to 2HKO Raikou (and Delphox) regardless of how many Calm Minds they got; even 1 Calm Mind is enough to push Earth Power from a 2HKO to a 3HKO, so Earth Power Stunfisk will face a very uphill battle if it switches in on Calm Mind. Its Electric STAB hits Tornadus for a lot of damage; Thunderbolt is recommended since it more easily pressures Moltres into Roosting into an Eathquake, and Scald is already there as its status move, but Discharge can still be used if you don't mind conflicting status. Note that Grass-types kind of shit all over it, especially Shaymin, so be prepared for that.

"Still the premier dragon in the game"
> Kyurem

It's still no joke that Druddigon is fucking amazing still but it's lost it's niche of most viable dragon in the tier to Kyurem. It's also pretty clear to me that Kyurem is the most consistently good, versatile and powerful threat in RU right now due to things like SDef drop reliant shaymin, defog reliant defiant tornadus, etc. While those 2 things are amazing, they don't have the consistency that Kyurem can bring to the table. Kyurem is also extremely versatile so it's even more of a threat. I'll post more thoughts on why Kyurem is such a different threat than most of RU threats and why that's actually GOOD for it. Still not broken because FUCK BRONZONG

 

[Punchshroom]

"Still the premier dragon in the game"
> Kyurem

It's still no joke that Druddigon is fucking amazing still but it's lost it's niche of most viable dragon in the tier to Kyurem. It's also pretty clear to me that Kyurem is the most consistently good, versatile and powerful threat in RU right now due to things like SDef drop reliant shaymin, defog reliant defiant tornadus, etc. While those 2 things are amazing, they don't have the consistency that Kyurem can bring to the table. Kyurem is also extremely versatile so it's even more of a threat. I'll post more thoughts on why Kyurem is such a different threat than most of RU threats and why that's actually GOOD for it. Still not broken because FUCK BRONZONG

Whoops, I totally dismissed Kyurem for a sec since too many people have voiced their sentiments about its stay in RU (which would be gtfo). My mindset about it being the RU Dragon during BW kinda carried over by mistake. Edited.

 

[The Lucky Absol]

Here is another Pokemon I have had a lot of luck with recently.
Nice resists nerd (Yanmega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Bug Buzz/Signal Beam
- Giga Drain
- Psychic/Hidden Power Fire

Tinted lens is such an amazing ability, I've had times when people switch in a fire type to my choice locked bug buzz only to see them OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. Additionally, it is able to outspeed and OHKO Chatot with that move. I put signal beam down because it could be useful now that soundproof is actually a usable ability. Giga drain is great because you can regain a decent amount of HP if rocks are up on your side of the field. I run psychic as a coverage move because of how hard it hits Toxicroak, although HP fire annihilates Escavalier. (Ferroseed too, but I have yet to see one of those.) Although it does suck to always be slower than other base 95 pokemon.

 

[Mudkip727]

After getting into the tier a lot i realised there are no good defoggers (gligar would loose immunity, xatu looses mb) and i didnt want a spinner, so after some testing i decided to go with golbat:
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Taunt / Toxic / Whirlind
- Brave Bird

With eviolite it has similar bulk to ferrothorn. Thanks to its great typing it hcan wall practicly every physically based poke in the tier apart from rhyperior and medicham. A spdef set is also viable but due stuff like azelf and helieptile, i prefer physically. I suck at explaining so here are some calcs

Hide

52+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage (i know no one uses this but its pretty impressive)
252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage (bb 2hko's)
252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 228-270 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO (bb ohko's)
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (wow)
252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 170-204 (48 - 57.6%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO (golbat can outspeed and taunt)
252 Atk Meloetta-P Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (bb 2hko's)
252+ Atk Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 94-112 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (bb 2hko's, golbat outspeeds 0 spe and has 1/3 chance to ohko after rocks

252 in hp gives it 354 hp, not divisable by 4, im not sure if that is optimum but this thing is bulky and fast, mandibuzz v2

Shouldn't this set have infiltrator? The ability to counter sub SD toxicroak and check few other setup sweepers is valuable. While fake out users are only limited to hitmons and ambipom.

 

[Anty]

Shouldn't this set have infiltrator? The ability to counter sub SD toxicroak and check few other setup sweepers is valuable. While fake out users are only limited to hitmons and ambipom.

Oh yeah. I assumed that it only got defog from gen4 tm, it turns out defog is an egg move ._.'.

 

[Arcticblast]

No. Just Not

I shall now show you every useful move Delphox gets. (STAB in bold)

Hide

-Solar beam
-Grass knot
-Shadow Ball
-Will-o-Wisp
-Switcheroo
-Substitute
-Light screen
-Calm mind
-Flamethrower
-Fire blast
-Psyshock
-Psychic

Now for all the useful moves azelf gets: (STAB in bold

Hide

-Nasty Plot
-Psyshock
-Psychic
-Fire blast
-Explosion
-Calm mind
-Taunt
-Thunderbolt
-Shadow ball
-Flamethrower
-Energy ball
-Charge Beam
-U-turn
-Dazzing gleam
-Fire punch
-Ice punch
-Thunder punch
-Knock off
-Signal beam
-Trick
-Zen headbutt
-Stealth rock
-Thunder wave
-Power-up punch

Dont even try to compare them. Azelf is also mixed, not special

Honestly, Delphox scares me a lot more than Azelf does. Its Fire Blast actually hits harder than anything Azelf can muster, and Fire is a much better offensive typing than Psychic. It also hits most Fire resists really hard with either Psychic or Grass Knot - Azelf can do the same but with a lot less firepower and more checks such as Drapion and Spiritomb (both of which get hammered by Delphox's Fire Blast). Delphox also has better special bulk and a better defensive typing, letting it switch in on things that Azelf never would such as Shaymin.

I'd honestly say Delphox is a better special attacker than Azelf right now; although Azelf has its own perks (Nasty Plot, hazards, physical moves) it's just not as threatening in my opinion.

Edit: forgot Azelf got KABOOM but you can't exactly spam that

 

[EonX]

Yellow Cheese , I have actually used CM Delphox quite a bit and I can say it is pretty damn scary. Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and Psyshock is all it needs for offense. If you can't setup because of some faster physical threat (Azelf, random Scarf shit) just spam the hell out of Fire Blast. That stuff hits really damn hard with Life Orb and base 114 Special Attack and you've got Psyshock and Grass Knot to hit what wants to come in on Fire Blast. Also, if you thought Specs Typhlosion could be difficult to handle in BW, just give Specs Delphox a test run. 5 more base Special Attack, and 4 more base Speed makes Specs Delphox a lot better than Specs Typhlosion ever hoped to be. Access to Psyshock and decent Special Defense only adds to this. The fact that it's a Fire-type with decent Special Defense is really big imo. It's a very solid Shaymin check as Earth Power doesn't OHKO and unless Shaymin is Scarfed, Delphox is faster and OHKOes with Fire Blast. Highly underrated right now as I feel people are just looking at the potentially OP shit like Kyurem, Azelf, Esca, and Raikou. Funny thing is that Delphox can deal with all of them bar Azelf after a CM boost. (doesn't even need the boost in the case of Esca)

 

[Durant]

Yellow Cheese , I have actually used CM Delphox quite a bit and I can say it is pretty damn scary. Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and Psyshock is all it needs for offense. If you can't setup because of some faster physical threat (Azelf, random Scarf shit) just spam the hell out of Fire Blast. That stuff hits really damn hard with Life Orb and base 114 Special Attack and you've got Psyshock and Grass Knot to hit what wants to come in on Fire Blast. Also, if you thought Specs Typhlosion could be difficult to handle in BW, just give Specs Delphox a test run. 5 more base Special Attack, and 4 more base Speed makes Specs Delphox a lot better than Specs Typhlosion ever hoped to be. Access to Psyshock and decent Special Defense only adds to this. The fact that it's a Fire-type with decent Special Defense is really big imo. It's a very solid Shaymin check as Earth Power doesn't OHKO and unless Shaymin is Scarfed, Delphox is faster and OHKOes with Fire Blast. Highly underrated right now as I feel people are just looking at the potentially OP shit like Kyurem, Azelf, Esca, and Raikou. Funny thing is that Delphox can deal with all of them bar Azelf after a CM boost. (doesn't even need the boost in the case of Esca)

5 more base special attack doesn't really matter when Typhlosion gets nuke powered eruption. The extra speed is really useful though against some things like Shaymin.

 

[EonX]

Snotjoch :

252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 268-316 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 264-312 (67.8 - 80.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

A SR switch-in or a switch into a resisted hit that does 23-25% brings their power level to around even. Considering Delphox's higher special bulk and less of a reliance on being at full health, I'd say Delphox is much better overall. Eruption can't make a huge difference as SR is much harder to clear in XY than it was in BW. Trust me, I love Specs Typhlosion from BW. Even made a very good team around it. But Delphox just needs less support and still has very sufficient power, without the full need to remove Rocks to keep its high power.

 

[Durant]

Snotjoch :

252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 268-316 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 264-312 (67.8 - 80.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

A SR switch-in or a switch into a resisted hit that does 23-25% brings their power level to around even. Considering Delphox's higher special bulk and less of a reliance on being at full health, I'd say Delphox is much better overall. Eruption can't make a huge difference as SR is much harder to clear in XY than it was in BW. Trust me, I love Specs Typhlosion from BW. Even made a very good team around it. But Delphox just needs less support and still has very sufficient power, without the full need to remove Rocks to keep its high power.

Well i didn't think Delphox was stronger than Typhlosion. But entry hazard removal is also almost a requirement for Delphox as being choiced forces you to switch quite a few times. Btw does this mean Typhlosion might be NU this generation?

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Honestly, Delphox scares me a lot more than Azelf does. Its Fire Blast actually hits harder than anything Azelf can muster, and Fire is a much better offensive typing than Psychic. It also hits most Fire resists really hard with either Psychic or Grass Knot - Azelf can do the same but with a lot less firepower and more checks such as Drapion and Spiritomb (both of which get hammered by Delphox's Fire Blast). Delphox also has better special bulk and a better defensive typing, letting it switch in on things that Azelf never would such as Shaymin.

I'd honestly say Delphox is a better special attacker than Azelf right now; although Azelf has its own perks (Nasty Plot, hazards, physical moves) it's just not as threatening in my opinion.

The idea with that post was to show that Delphox has a lot worse Movepull than Azelf. Shadow said that both have killer movepulls, which Delphox does not. Fire/Psychic is imo worse defensivly that pure psychic, since it is weak to SR and more common coverage moves like EQ and stone edge. Along with Top poke Slowking

This post is late since Smogon updated in my face

 

[ryan]

Am I the only person who doesn't think Shaymin is all that good? I've been using it, and I'm about to replace it because it has been so underwhelming. It needs Life Orb HP Fire to 2HKO Assault Vest Escavalier (in fact, even without Assault Vest, it would need Specs for a chance to KO with HP Fire), but HP Fire does shit to everything else. Like seriously everything else that you would want to hit with a Fire move except for Durant which should never go toe-to-toe with Shaymin anyways takes nothing. Seed Flare is cool when it actually fucking hits, but it misses about as much as it hits for me, which is probably skewing my perception of how good Shaymin is. And then Earth Power can hit Poison- and Steel-types, but it's not all that powerful either. I think I might need to run Modest if I'm going to use Shaymin because without it, it's so weak. I'm trying to come up with something else to use over Shaymin as an offensive Grass-type, but there's really not much that comes close to it, which is sad considering how low my opinion of it is. I'm just tired of my nuke getting walled by shit like Gogoat and Meganium lol.

Also can you guys quit fighting about semantics? Azelf has a better movepool, Delphox has a secondary STAB that's strong. Stop fighting about shit that is utterly irrelevant to the conversation.

[edit] OH ALSO LADDER KIDS STOP USING POISON TOUCH TOXICROAK. IT IS COMPLETELY INFERIOR TO DRY SKIN.

 

[Meteor 17]

Xatu guys. Xatu. It can be used both as a support and a stallbreaker, and packs Magic Guard. It has a quad resist to fighting as well, meaning it checks Hitmonlee not locked into Knock Off. It threatens some of the good mons in the tier, making Toxicroak, Escavalier, Rhyperior and Hitmonlee run away in fear. There are two sets you can run, with support details in blue and offensive details in red:

Xatu @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Nature: Calm or Careful / Modest or Timid
EVs: 252 HP, 240 SpD, 16 Spe / 32 HP, 252 SpA, 8 SpD, 216 Spe
- Roost
- Thunder Wave, Toxic, Psyshock (If Modest), Psychic (If Timid)
- U-Turn, Heat Wave
- Psychic, Night Shade, Grass Knot​

 

[Yellow Cheese]

Xatu guys. Xatu. It can be used both as a support and a wallbreaker, and packs Magic Guard. It has a quad resist to fighting as well, meaning it checks Hitmonlee not locked into Knock Off. It threatens some of the good mons in the tier, making Toxicroak, Escavalier, Rhyperior and Hitmonlee run away in fear. There are two sets you can run, with support details in blue and offensive details in red:

Xatu @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
Nature: Calm or Careful / Modest or Timid
EVs: 252 HP, 240 SpD, 16 Spe / 32 HP, 252 SpA, 8 SpD, 216 Spe
- Roost
- Thunder Wave, Toxic, Psyshock (If Modest), Psychic (If Timid)
- U-Turn, Heat Wave
- Psychic, Night Shade, Grass Knot​

Wallbreaker is the wrong term? is it not stallbreaker that is the correct term?

 

[aVocado]

So um, how does one counter Azelf in Stall?

 

[Yellow Cheese]

So um, how does one counter Azelf in Stall?

Defeat Azelf with a stall team? phaze/kill it before it sets up NP or have a sucker puncher on your team (Zoroark is imo the best). the other alternatives include loosing and using A-vest Slowking