Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)

[Egyptian]

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 SpA / 4 Defense
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Will-o-Wisp

Note:Not sure if replacing thunderbolt with will-o-wisp is a good idea or not

Rotom-Wash is a threat in this metagame , What with good offenses , Amazing defenses,Great ability and Workable Speed,Specs Push rotom-wash to new level , here are some calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 178-211 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 240-283 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 354-416 (91.7 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 162-192 (23 - 27.2%) -- 56.9% chance to 4HKO(ko if half health and caught on switch)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 291-343 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO(2hko with 252 hp 252+ SpD
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 108-128 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.8% chance to 3HKO(Catch it on the switch+some period damage = ko)

Not only that , But it also have A choice specs to trick into any set up pokemon who is boosting it's defenses , Also it might force Team 2 to run Mail on Clefable(Mail is the only item who can't be tricked , Also the mega evolutions) Which reduce it's life time.

Also it pairs amazingly well with a wish passer or a U-turner.
@alyssathegreat

Try fire punch over knock off since it rounds out the coverage with handling scizor , although it deals less damage to aegislash

Were you guys even listening?
Why are you suggesting so many megas?You'll have lots of chances later.

My suggestion is Daiguren's Rotom-w

This

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Sorry, I know this is a confusing concept. It will go like this: everyone who wishes to participate will be able to for both teams. By that I mean, everyone will make nominations for both Team 1 and Team 2. My first post is one nomination, but anyone is able to make posts about what they think should be the chosen Pokemon. So rounds will go like this

Nomination period: everyone who wants to nominates a pokemon for Team 1 to build around, and we all discuss what we think is the best one

Voting period: everyone with 50 or more posts votes on which Pokemon they want to be chosen, the one with the most votes wins that round and becomes a part of Team 1

Nomination period: People nominate a Pokemon to counter Team 1's pick. You don't have to choose between team 1 or 2, you can contribute to both :]

Voting Period: Same as before

Nomination period: Now Team 2 gets to pick their second Pokemon YES VOTING WILL ALTERNATE IN THIS WAY 1->2->2->1->1->2->2 and so on until all six Pokemon are chosen.

Again, if you have any more questions, please PM me and I will try to explain in a less confusing way n_n

Also, good catch on the Naive thing, I just copied it from a Knock Off Landorus I was using and forgot to change the natures back.

Clears things up now :]

Anyways, can I nominate this set?

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP, 40 Atk, 216 SpD
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

Other than Choice Band Scizor, I like this set. With Scizor's high attack stat, adding bulk won't hurt towards Scizor's attack stat too much. Swords Dance of course can raise that stat to much higher boundries, which is the main idea of the set. Roost helps recover Scizor's health back, and with the nice bulk, helps Scizor stand longer. Bullet Punch is the main Swords Dance/Technician Boosted/STAB move, as it does have priority. Bug Bite does more damage with no priority.

 

[G-Von]

Personally I think a Mega Pokemon should not be chosen so early but shit wtf do I know? Anyway here's my suggestion:

Greninja@Life Orb
Trait: Protean
EV's: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Attack
Naive Nature
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
-U-turn

Greninja is one of the most dangerous special attackers in the tier thanks to its ability, Protean, which makes each one of its moves a STAB move. I don't think I have to go into too much detail in regards of describing its moves. They are its most powerful options, but a case for Extrasensory could be made. The frog ninja is also a very speedy motherfucker, but of course fears Choice Scarfers and priority users since he is a bit on the frail side. Thanks to U-turn, Greninja can switch out of a potential sticky situation to have the upper hand. Some offensive stops include Azumarrill and Keldeo since pokemon like Crawdaunt and Mega Gyarados would not like to take a U-turn. All in all, I believe Greninja would be a solid pokemon to start a team off with because there is so little that can deal with it.

EDIT: Oh, and praise Holcyon. for beginning this thread since it can be one of the best threads if players make unbiased decisions on what pokemon they vote for.

 

[rachet67]

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake
-Quick Attack

Band Terrakion is one of the most terrifying wall breakers in the entire metagame. It can 2HKO defensive Skarmory with Close Combat, 2HKO both Landorus-T and Venusaur with stone edge, and pretty much wreck stall with any pursuit support. The only really solid counter in all of OU is Gliscor, which team 1 can take advantage of if they chose it early. Its a very solid pokemon all around and it can adapt to various forms of offense, and seeing that this is the first pick and we're not countering anything directly yet, I think it would be a decent pick.

Edit: Actually I'm rethinking this, it may be better to see what walls need breaking before suggesting wall breakers, even if they are as versatile as Terrakion.

 

[skies]

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

Ok, so I'm nominating one of the best Pokemon in the game right now, Kyruem-Black. This set does amazingly against Stall, as Substitute and its power ensure that it can not be Toxic'ed. Ice Beam hits so fucking hard, it is a wonderful STAB move that gets great coverage. Fusion Bolt allows it to beat Fairy-types, but watch out for Sylveon! Earth Power is amazing for Heatran and Rotom-W (Teravolt). Kyurem-Black has so much raw power and coverage that it is very difficult to wall. Kyurem-B is just a very good Pokemon in the current Meta, as it has astounding power, bulk, and not too shabby Speed!

 

[michaeloche]

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

Ok, so I'm nominating one of the best Pokemon in the game right now, Kyruem-Black. This set does amazingly against Stall, as Substitute and its power ensure that it can not be Toxic'ed. Ice Beam hits so fucking hard, it is a wonderful STAB move that gets great coverage. Fusion Bolt allows it to beat Fairy-types, but watch out for Sylveon! Earth Power is amazing for Heatran and Rotom-W (Teravolt). Kyurem-Black has so much raw power and coverage that it is very difficult to wall. Kyurem-B is just a very good Pokemon in the current Meta, as it has astounding power, bulk, and not too shabby Speed!

Might I ask why you are running Rash with no physical moves?

Also, a nomination:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

An oldie but a goodie. It's MixMence, which despite having dropped from OU, still makes for a potent cleaner and/or sweeper. While Mence is slower than, say, Chomp, it makes up for it with better SAtk and, more importantly, Moxie, which makes it even stronger as it gets KOs. The presence of Fairy types has hindered it, but that's what coverage moves are for. Mence gets at least neutral coverage on all of OU with this moveset.

I would mention the only thing that can reliably beat this, but that would be too easy for the other team to work around. Nobody's brought it up yet, though.

 

[skies]

Might I ask why you are running Rash with no physical moves?

Also, a nomination:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

An oldie but a goodie. It's MixMence, which despite having dropped from OU, still makes for a potent cleaner and/or sweeper. While Mence is slower than, say, Chomp, it makes up for it with better SAtk and, more importantly, Moxie, which makes it even stronger as it gets KOs. The presence of Fairy types has hindered it, but that's what coverage moves are for. Mence gets at least neutral coverage on all of OU with this moveset.

I would mention the only thing that can reliably beat this, but that would be too easy for the other team to work around. Nobody's brought it up yet, though.

Fusion Bolt is a Physical move bruh :]

 

[G-Von]

Here are my thoughts on some of the non-mega picks:

I'll snag the first second post to to help everyone get started with their nominations. The first one is usually pretty tough, because you don't really have anything to "counter" yet. Instead, you have to choose a Pokemon that lends itself to a multitude of styles while also being decently difficult to counter (or rather that has easily exploitable counters). I nominate Landorus-I for the first Pokemon!

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Calm Mind

Landorus-I is the perfect Pokemon for this type of project. Not only is it a formidable Pokemon in the sense that it can do a lot of damage to almost the entire tier, it is also one with very exploitable counters. If the opposing team chooses to use Chansey, it can be over powered with Calm Mind and overloaded with other special attackers. If they choose Latias or Latios, Team 1 can choose Bisharp or Aegislash to easily Pursuit trap it. Landorus also finds itself being able to fit onto many different playstles including HO, Bulky Offense, and Balance. On the whole, I see Landorus and being a very good place to start. Note that I didn't choose Knock Off Landorus because it would essentially be useless. The other team will never pick Chansey if they know Landorus-I has Knock Off! This is the kind of thinking you need to have with your nominations!

I was told last gen that CM Lando was "overkill" and basically not usable lolz. I wish I could find the thread but for some reason I can't. So obviously, I like this pick since it blows major holes into teams and its counters can easily be picked off.

I was thinking of win conditions where the opposing counter is easy to eliminate while not eroding our options by picking something like a Mega right off the bat. So sorry if this is a little "out there" as a nomination.

Haxorus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 124 Spd / 252 Atk / 132 HP
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Poison Jab

While some say that Haxorus is "outclassed" as a dragon-dancer its claim to fame is its ability of Mold Breaker which negates Levitate, Multiscale and most importantly Unaware. While all other dragons are shut down by Unaware cores Haxorus can push through. Unlike Mega-Gyarados who I was also heavily considering nominating Haxorus can carry a Lum Berry which allows to set up in the face of scalders and sweep even if the opponents Thundurus-I is still alive. Haxorus's has an incredibly high attack stat as well and can hold its own as a wallbreaker. Overall Haxorus is IMO an interesting and unexpected choice who can be very good given the shape of the current metagame and limits team 2's defensive options by making an Unaware core worthless.

As a summary: Haxorus is a very solid first pick as it has very few defensive answers because of Mold Breaker and it can function in multiple roles
(wallbreaker and DD-Sweeper) thanks to its high attack state.

I love Haxorus, don't get me wrong, but its just not fast enough in my opinion. It is pretty powerful, but Skarmory, Gliscor, Lando-T, Hippowdon all wall this thing for life, have a variety of ways of dealing with Haxorus and other pokemon, and DC makes it much less terrifying. This is something that could be used as a later pick IMO.

Here's what I'd like to suggest:

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Waterfall

Azumarill has only gotten better with every passing generation. Now that it can use Belly Drum and Aqua Jet together, and has a secondary STAB, it is finally a terror to behold in OU. This Azumarill can find itself on teams from HO to bulky offense to balance, and doesn't have very many counters. Waterfall is used over Superpower because with Superpower, any Pokemon with priority has a much easier time countering Azumarill. The only other physical Fairy is Mega Mawile, who uses up a Mega slot and as so isn't the best choice for the first mon. If we force the opponent to use their Mega slot on turn 1 by picking Mega Venusaur, so much the better, as their opitions are much more limited.

I literally have nothing to point out here because BD Azu is a terror. It can be saved for the late game or be used as a revenge killer. It's slow as shit but a +6 Aqua Jet will hurt so I definitely like this choice.

Manaphy @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Hydration
EVs : 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Psychic

Tail Glow Manaphy seems like a good place to start. The set I'm proposing seems more like a lure than a sweeper, but I like how self-sufficient it is for the most part in that it can handle some of its own biggest problems. With Wacan Berry and Psychic, Manaphy can stave off Thundurus, Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, and Assault Vest Conkeldurr in one fell swoop, while still being a legitimate and powerful threat that can blast a hole or two in the opposition. While Team 2 knows what's coming, it does mean they'll have to resort to other, less immediately powerful / threatening options to stop Manaphy.

Another good choice, but what's the reasoning behind the EV spread?

I will nominate a very safe albeit boring one.

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 44 Spd / 252 Def / 212 HP
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

I guess I'm nominating this guy because of how splashable Rotom-W is to any team, while holding its own weight and some against a lot of top-tier threats. 44 speed EVs are to outspeed Jolly Azu(if im not mistaken) and min speed Lando-T.

I know Rotom-W is one of the premier physical walls of this generation right now, but it doesn't really put pressure on Team 2 and I think better reserved for a pick later on.

I know Landorus has been posted twice already but they all play really differently.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Earth Power
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

So we all know that Landorus can hit a large portion of Pokemon in the tier hard with appropriate coverage moves, and nothing is really safe switching in. When you think of Lando counters, you think of Chansey and Lati@s. However with U-turn these Pokemon can be taken advantage of because momentum is gained in addition to being able to wear down Chansey and trap Lati twins without any risk of doubles. The nice thing about this is that unlike the CM set, team 2 has to be really pressurized when trying to beat this because they can't freely switch in their wall to double out and Lando's coverage is good enough that switching in something else is risky. Good partners would include things that pressurize Chansey, such as Fighting-types, things that pressurize Latis eg. Aegislash or Bisharp. Volt turning teammates are also interesting. Entry hazard support is also nice to wear down Chansey which can't switch in all the time.

This plays a lot like my Greninja suggestion, except its slower but bulkier and more powerful, so once again I think its something that is a good pick.

I'm going to offer up an underrated and fun mon:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Softboiled

I think this set is a good choice for a project such as this because it keeps many avenues open. Essentially, it won't limit teambuilding too much around any one playstyle which will allow for greater maneuverability in countering Team 2's choices, particularly when it comes to the all important final choice. Unaware Clefable can check a surprisingly large amount of offensive threats, while at the same time acting as a pretty darn good late game sweeper.

Man, fuck this thing to Hell and back. Its such a bitch to face so I think its a good pick, but can be dealt with since both of its attacks are resisted by fire types. I think this is something that does well in competitive play but may not be best suited for this type of project.

I would like to nominate the following set:

Ability: Pressure
Evs: 252 SpA / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
Nature: Timid
Item: Assault Vest
- Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
-Shadow Ball
Raikou is a highly underrated mon in the current meta that fits the project well - it adds bulk, acts as a good pivot, and does not restrict teambuilding much, while also offering a good stop to popular threats such as Thundurus-I. While it does not pressure Team 2 as much as , for instance, Landorus-I, it allows us much more flexibility and can easily form good cores.

Ahhh vyomov is back! This is actually a pretty decent pick since its fast, bulky, and can pack a decent punch. Volt Switch also makes it a great option since it gives it the ability to get out of potential bad situations even though bulky grounds kinda wall it. Also, what's with the 224 Speed EV's instead of 252?

I'm going to nom Deoxys-S:

@

Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Ice Beam

It can hit a lot of things in the metagame with the moves.
Psycho Boost hits really hard, and hits stuff like Mega-Venusaur, Keldeo, Hawlucha, and Breloom.
Superpower can hit things that are coming in on the switch, like Ttar, Heatran, or Excadrill. Knock Off is a very useful move that can be spammed around to some extent without fear and knocking off items to potentially cripple other mons.
Ice Beam is for hitting Lando-T, Dragons, and Zapdos.
It's fraility is made up for by it's high speed, which allows it to outspeed non-priority mons and sometimes kill them or pick weakened mons off.
Of course, although it is priority weak, it can switch to something which can take them.
It also can be easily saced after killing what it needs to kill, which is done quite quickly.

Yea I can see this thing causing a lot of problems for Team 2, as if they needed any more since Team 1 always has the huge advantage of picking last. Just like Azumarrill, I don't really have much input for Deo-S since it wrecks shit and has tremendous speed.

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 SpA / 4 Defense
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Will-o-Wisp

Note:Not sure if replacing thunderbolt with will-o-wisp is a good idea or not

Rotom-Wash is a threat in this metagame , What with good offenses , Amazing defenses,Great ability and Workable Speed,Specs Push rotom-wash to new level , here are some calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 178-211 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 240-283 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 354-416 (91.7 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 162-192 (23 - 27.2%) -- 56.9% chance to 4HKO(ko if half health and caught on switch)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 291-343 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO(2hko with 252 hp 252+ SpD
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 108-128 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.8% chance to 3HKO(Catch it on the switch+some period damage = ko)

Not only that , But it also have A choice specs to trick into any set up pokemon who is boosting it's defenses , Also it might force Team 2 to run Mail on Clefable(Mail is the only item who can't be tricked , Also the mega evolutions) Which reduce it's life time.

Also it pairs amazingly well with a wish passer or a U-turner.

At first glance, I didn't really care for this pick, but after giving it some thought I think it can be something tricky (no pun intended) to work around thanks to Trick. It creates mind games so I see it as something that Team 2 cannot outright counter right away and is something that would have to be dealt with when the time comes. I guess a fast taunter that can take a hit would be the best option against it.

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait: Justified
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge
-Earthquake
-Quick Attack

Band Terrakion is one of the most terrifying wall breakers in the entire metagame. It can 2HKO defensive Skarmory with Close Combat, 2HKO both Landorus-T and Venusaur with stone edge, and pretty much wreck stall with any pursuit support. The only really solid counter in all of OU is Gliscor, which team 1 can take advantage of if they chose it early. Its a very solid pokemon all around and it can adapt to various forms of offense, and seeing that this is the first pick and we're not countering anything directly yet, I think it would be a decent pick.

Edit: Actually I'm rethinking this, it may be better to see what walls need breaking before suggesting wall breakers, even if they are as versatile as Terrakion.

Another one of my selections from the very last CtP project. I was told it wasn't a good choice yet multiple people said if I didn't change the set they would have voted for it...but anyway I like the pick and the pokemon itself since I have used it before so I think its another good selection.

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

Ok, so I'm nominating one of the best Pokemon in the game right now, Kyruem-Black. This set does amazingly against Stall, as Substitute and its power ensure that it can not be Toxic'ed. Ice Beam hits so fucking hard, it is a wonderful STAB move that gets great coverage. Fusion Bolt allows it to beat Fairy-types, but watch out for Sylveon! Earth Power is amazing for Heatran and Rotom-W (Teravolt). Kyurem-Black has so much raw power and coverage that it is very difficult to wall. Kyurem-B is just a very good Pokemon in the current Meta, as it has astounding power, bulk, and not too shabby Speed!

Ahhh I was thinking about posting this set too! Another great choice that doesn't really need much input from me. It puts the hurt on shit and can take hits.

Might I ask why you are running Rash with no physical moves?

Also, a nomination:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast

An oldie but a goodie. It's MixMence, which despite having dropped from OU, still makes for a potent cleaner and/or sweeper. While Mence is slower than, say, Chomp, it makes up for it with better SAtk and, more importantly, Moxie, which makes it even stronger as it gets KOs. The presence of Fairy types has hindered it, but that's what coverage moves are for. Mence gets at least neutral coverage on all of OU with this moveset.

I would mention the only thing that can reliably beat this, but that would be too easy for the other team to work around. Nobody's brought it up yet, though.

The reason why Salamence dropped was because almost all fairy types can deal with him easily, especially Togekiss, and I don't think this set in particular is going to cut it since there is much more priority and faster threats out there that can do work on Mence.



Helix fucking Fossil that shit took a while. Anyway, aside from my own selection, my favorite nominations so far are Azumarrill, Deo-S, CM & U-turn Lando, and Kyu-B.

 

[Ajwf]

I would avoid Deoxys because even with Knock off, you still give Team 2 the ability to grab Aegislash for almost no oppertunity cost... Granted, you can fit aegi on for almost any justification but leading off with a pokemon that will enable Aegislash to be a prominent problem early on is not fun and means it could take longer/be harder for team 1 to justify aegislash.

 

[DaiGuren]

My reasoning for nominating defensive Rotom-W is that, with right predictions, there is nothing that can stop Rotom-W, much like Genesect. Only that Rotom-W offers more utility instead of sweeping power.

I know you guys know all of these, but once you get Rotom-W for free, this thing will automatically generate advantage for you. It's an instant momentum grabber, and most mons that are immune to Volt Switch are not willing to be burned or take a Hydro Pump in the face. And even if you ever get Rotom-W low, Pain Split does a heck of a good job of screwing over the opponent's mons before it goes down.

The reason why Rotom-W is a good(and imo challenging) first pick is that it really constraints player 2's picks. Player 2 can either choose to fully "counter" Rotom-W by picking Kyurem-B, Conk, Celebi,etc. in which case Player 1 can freely pick a hard counter to Rotom-W's counter, knowing that momentum can easily be shifted to Player 1's favor because of Rotom-W's Volt Switch. Or Player 2 can choose to overload and overwhelm Rotom-W with a Banded/Specs mon but it would require delicate planning as picking a mon like that doesn't really put much pressure on Player 1.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Here are my thoughts on some of the non-mega picks:



I was told last gen that CM Lando was "overkill" and basically not usable lolz. I wish I could find the thread but for some reason I can't. So obviously, I like this pick since it blows major holes into teams and its counters can easily be picked off.



I love Haxorus, don't get me wrong, but its just not fast enough in my opinion. It is pretty powerful, but Skarmory, Gliscor, Lando-T, Hippowdon all wall this thing for life, have a variety of ways of dealing with Haxorus and other pokemon, and DC makes it much less terrifying. This is something that could be used as a later pick IMO.



I literally have nothing to point out here because BD Azu is a terror. It can be saved for the late game or be used as a revenge killer. It's slow as shit but a +6 Aqua Jet will hurt so I definitely like this choice.



Another good choice, but what's the reasoning behind the EV spread?


I know Rotom-W is one of the premier physical walls of this generation right now, but it doesn't really put pressure on Team 2 and I think better reserved for a pick later on.



This plays a lot like my Greninja suggestion, except its slower but bulkier and more powerful, so once again I think its something that is a good pick.



Man, fuck this thing to Hell and back. Its such a bitch to face so I think its a good pick, but can be dealt with since both of its attacks are resisted by fire types. I think this is something that does well in competitive play but may not be best suited for this type of project.



Ahhh vyomov is back! This is actually a pretty decent pick since its fast, bulky, and can pack a decent punch. Volt Switch also makes it a great option since it gives it the ability to get out of potential bad situations even though bulky grounds kinda wall it. Also, what's with the 224 Speed EV's instead of 252?



Yea I can see this thing causing a lot of problems for Team 2, as if they needed any more since Team 1 always has the huge advantage of picking last. Just like Azumarrill, I don't really have much input for Deo-S since it wrecks shit and has tremendous speed.



At first glance, I didn't really care for this pick, but after giving it some thought I think it can be something tricky (no pun intended) to work around thanks to Trick. It creates mind games so I see it as something that Team 2 cannot outright counter right away and is something that would have to be dealt with when the time comes. I guess a fast taunter that can take a hit would be the best option against it.



Another one of my selections from the very last CtP project. I was told it wasn't a good choice yet multiple people said if I didn't change the set they would have voted for it...but anyway I like the pick and the pokemon itself since I have used it before so I think its another good selection.



Ahhh I was thinking about posting this set too! Another great choice that doesn't really need much input from me. It puts the hurt on shit and can take hits.


The reason why Salamence dropped was because almost all fairy types can deal with him easily, especially Togekiss, and I don't think this set in particular is going to cut it since there is much more priority and faster threats out there that can do work on Mence.



Helix fucking Fossil that shit took a while. Anyway, aside from my own selection, my favorite nominations so far are Azumarrill, Deo-S, CM & U-turn Lando, and Kyu-B.

Lol, you forgot my set. Not that it matters or anything

 

[Talpr0ne]

Diggersby@Silk Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk/212 Spd/40 HP
Adamant Nature
-Swords Dance
-Return
-Earthquake
-Quick Attack

Swords Dance Diggersby is a really nice and underrated threath. It's basically a better pinsir in everything except speed and the inability to touch airbone ghosts, which is admittely a pretty big deal and why Pinsir is actually better. Not much to say incredible stallbreaker, insane attack, nice coverage, priority which allows him to shit on offense, blah blah. Imho is a nice starting point because it requires little support aside from someone who can deal with Gengar and Skarmory and/or makes setup and sweep easier(i.e. screen or encore support and maybe spikes).

 

[Halcyon.]

I think that, at the moment, the best pick is U-turn Landorus-I. This Pokemon does literally everything it's supposed to do for this kind of project. It's powerful; it has few, exploitable counters; it has U-turn to maintain momentum in what is undoubtedly going to be a very switch-filled match. Are there things that can counter that Landorus? Of course. SDef Dragonite and Chansey both can do a good job of that, but both can also be played around quite easily with, say, an Azumarill choice next round if that is the direction Team 2 wants to go. Not only that, but it's a choice that puts Team 2 on the defensive. That is very important for this kind of match, because making the opponent lose any offensive presence will make it all the easier for the other side to win.

Also, I would, again, like to say that I don't think Mega Pokemon are a good pick for the first round. You have only one Mega Pokemon you can use, and it would be best, I think, to keep that pick until the teams are a little more developed.

One more thing. I've decided to make this blind voting to avoid any bandwagoning. When the voting time comes, just PM me with your vote in both the subject of the PM and in the PM like so:

Subject: U-turn Landorus

Message: U-turn Landorus

That makes things much easier, as I assume I will be getting a lot of PMs ._. and please note that my name is Halcyon. with a period at the end. Some jerk already took Halcyon :[

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

I think that, at the moment, the best pick is U-turn Landorus-I. This Pokemon does literally everything it's supposed to do for this kind of project. It's powerful; it has few, exploitable counters; it has U-turn to maintain momentum in what is undoubtedly going to be a very switch-filled match. Are there things that can counter that Landorus? Of course. SDef Dragonite and Chansey both can do a good job of that, but both can also be played around quite easily with, say, an Azumarill choice next round if that is the direction Team 2 wants to go. Not only that, but it's a choice that puts Team 2 on the defensive. That is very important for this kind of match, because making the opponent lose any offensive presence will make it all the easier for the other side to win.

Also, I would, again, like to say that I don't think Mega Pokemon are a good pick for the first round. You have only one Mega Pokemon you can use, and it would be best, I think, to keep that pick until the teams are a little more developed.

One more thing. I've decided to make this blind voting to avoid any bandwagoning. When the voting time comes, just PM me with your vote in both the subject of the PM and in the PM like so:

Subject: U-turn Landorus

Message: U-turn Landorus

That makes things much easier, as I assume I will be getting a lot of PMs ._. and please note that my name is Halcyon. with a period at the end. Some jerk already took Halcyon :[

Could we count my M-Scizor set as a regular scizor set? Like, I'll change the item and sprite?

 

[Halcyon.]

Could we count my M-Scizor set as a regular scizor set? Like, I'll change the item and sprite?

Ah ok this is a good chance for me to say that you CAN change your sets as long as it is before voting starts! So please feel free to change Mega Scizor to Scizor if you want to.

 

[ganj4lF]

Glad to see "my" project back. Thank you Halcyon for bringing it back (I don't really have the time to run it these days).

Now, on the suggestions. Remember that the first pokemon to be selected is the most likely to be countered HARD by Team 2, so in my opinion is vastly pointless to pick a sweeper right now. As a rough estimate, I'd say at least 60% of the suggestions run a set-up move, so I'm not really sold on them. Choiced pokemon are also quite a gamble to select at the very start, since you still don't know what you'll need to break, and Trick got kind of nerfed with the introduction of Mega Evolutions. The submissions I like the most are Rotom-W and Landorus-i w/ U-Turn at the moment; however, even if they're very effective against a big part of the metagame, they still lose horribly against specific threats (for example, if we go for Rotom and they go AV Conkeldurr (or also Magic Guard Clefable, I guess?) we're in a very bad spot, Rotom can at best grab momentum without dealing any significant damage, and at worst give a free CB to Conk; same story for Landorus-I and Goodra, basically: if you don't U-Turn, you lose a ton of momentum, without even mentioning that Blissey & co could be an option, too).

So, what do we need to avoid those nasty situations? In my opinion, our best bet is Landorus-T.

Landorus-T @ Intimidate | Leftovers
Adamant | 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Stealth Rock

This set is an absolute nightmare for Team 2 to deal with. While it's easy to "counter" by the standard definition of counter, to fully nullify its effects, Team 2 needs to:

• avoid picking strong physically based pokemon not named Bisharp (even if they go Azumarill, they're still vulnerable to Intimidate or Knock Off on the switch);
• pick something to deal with SR or just pick a team that doesn't care much;
• get something like a M-Evo or something similar to avoid being crippled too much by repeated Knock Offs, and lastly
• avoid being too vulnerable to Ground attacks, since EQ packs a very good punch even without max / considerable investment.

Even if they manage to fulfill all those conditions, they basically just stopped a "support" pokemon by investing on it multiple picks, while we have complete freedom in picking our sweeper / wallbreaker(s). This puts Team 2 in a much worse situation than, say, Azumarill or any strong sweeper that was proposed; while it doesn't pack the same explosive power of those pokemon, his supporting capabilities and the fact it's an offensive pivot (try to set up on 145 Atk EQ + U-Turn + the chance to lose your item...) just make it much harder to handle for the enemy team.

EDIT: if someone's still confused by the OP and wants a practical example of this kind of project, here's a link to the last edition.

 

[Manectrifier]

Ok, since I've seen 3 different Landorus sets in combination with the fact that this project works with blind voting, I need to make a note regarding this voting process.

I once heard a story similar to this, and I was reminded of it when I looked at this thread. It was about a referendum in a Canadian town where people could vote for a new name for their town. There were three options. Two of those were very similar names, there were only one or two letters different. A majority of the people were in favor of the first or second option and they were indifferent towards how it was spelled. Say the majority was 60%. What happened was that half of those voted for option 1, and half of them voted for 2. 40% however, voted for the third option, and it won, even though a majority did not want it.

Now, what does this have to do with pokemon or this thread? Well, say a large amount of users are in favor of choosing Landorus as a first mon. However, they don't know which one to vote for or simply don't really care whether it has calm mind, gravity or u-turn as a forth move, and thus, the votes are spreaded amongst the three sets. This leaves the amount of votes for Landorus lower than it should be or at least lower than it would be if there were only one set.

How do we solve this? Well, I'd keep the blind voting, since I hate bandwagoning. However, a solution would be to give people the opportunity to send in a top 2 or even top 3. This would create more work for you, Halycon., and I'm sorry for that, but I think it's the only way to keep the outcome unbiased. It's up to you though whether you want to change it or not. Just felt this needed to be said.

 

[vyomov]

Also, what's with the 224 Speed EV's instead of 252?

With 224 Speed EVs and a Timid nature, you outspeed +ve nature Thundurus-I, and there isn't really much in between base 111 and base 115(almost nothing that comes to mind) worth outspeeding, and the extra EVs help add to Raikou's bulk to let it take attacks better. I'm not sure how important speed-tying with Starmie is though, but I personally feel 224 EVs are more than sufficient for the set suggested.

 

[ganj4lF]

Ok, since I've seen 3 different Landorus sets in combination with the fact that this project works with blind voting, I need to make a note regarding this voting process.

I once heard a story similar to this, and I was reminded of it when I looked at this thread. It was about a referendum in a Canadian town where people could vote for a new name for their town. There were three options. Two of those were very similar names, there were only one or two letters different. A majority of the people were in favor of the first or second option and they were indifferent towards how it was spelled. Say the majority was 60%. What happened was that half of those voted for option 1, and half of them voted for 2. 40% however, voted for the third option, and it won, even though a majority did not want it.

Now, what does this have to do with pokemon or this thread? Well, say a large amount of users are in favor of choosing Landorus as a first mon. However, they don't know which one to vote for or simply don't really care whether it has calm mind, gravity or u-turn as a forth move, and thus, the votes are spreaded amongst the three sets. This leaves the amount of votes for Landorus lower than it should be or at least lower than it would be if there were only one set.

How do we solve this? Well, I'd keep the blind voting, since I hate bandwagoning. However, a solution would be to give people the opportunity to send in a top 2 or even top 3. This would create more work for you, Halycon., and I'm sorry for that, but I think it's the only way to keep the outcome unbiased. It's up to you though whether you want to change it or not. Just felt this needed to be said.

I agree on the top 3 actually (although it's a burden for Halcyon to count votes, I guess); however, I don't think the three Landoruses in your example are actually the same pokemon. CM Landorus is completely different from U-Turn, for example, so if players do not know what Landorus they want, they need to think harder about what they have in mind. I guess Halcyon will prune away the suggestions that are too similar to each other anyway, so a scenario like that should be impossible regardless.

 

[G-Von]

Lol, you forgot my set. Not that it matters or anything

Because it was a M-Sczior at the time.

With 224 Speed EVs and a Timid nature, you outspeed +ve nature Thundurus-I, and there isn't really much in between base 111 and base 115(almost nothing that comes to mind) worth outspeeding, and the extra EVs help add to Raikou's bulk to let it take attacks better. I'm not sure how important speed-tying with Starmie is though, but I personally feel 224 EVs are more than sufficient for the set suggested.

Starmie, Mega Absol, Mega Houndoom, Azelf, and, to a lesser extent, Scolipede are all the viable options since everything else is beyond irrelevant. Realistically none of them will come up though so I think you're spread will most likely be fine.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok I'm totally fine with doing a vote with three options. One vote can definitely pose some problems. Such is the fault of first past the post. Oh well.

Ok so now, when voting begins (it's not now, I'll announce when voting starts), PM me with your top 3 choices! This will ensure that the most popular option will be the one chosen.

 

[Entei The Swift]

I'm going to offer up an underrated and fun mon:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Softboiled

I think this set is a good choice for a project such as this because it keeps many avenues open. Essentially, it won't limit teambuilding too much around any one playstyle which will allow for greater maneuverability in countering Team 2's choices, particularly when it comes to the all important final choice. Unaware Clefable can check a surprisingly large amount of offensive threats, while at the same time acting as a pretty darn good late game sweeper.

Correct me if i am wrong but unaware clefable with softboiled is illegal as softboiled is a pre DW tutor move. Making your only other form of recovery be Wish.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Correct me if i am wrong but unaware clefable with softboiled is illegal as softboiled is a pre DW tutor move. Making your only other form of recovery be Wish.

To be honest I prefer Moonlight over wish. Yes, it has less PP and dislikes Rain, Sand, and Hail, but, it heals instantly, loves sun, and is legal with Unaware.

 

[Mowtom]

Now, on the suggestions. Remember that the first pokemon to be selected is the most likely to be countered HARD by Team 2, so in my opinion is vastly pointless to pick a sweeper right now. As a rough estimate, I'd say at least 60% of the suggestions run a set-up move, so I'm not really sold on them.

...

Even if they manage to fulfill all those conditions, they basically just stopped a "support" pokemon by investing on it multiple picks, while we have complete freedom in picking our sweeper / wallbreaker(s). This puts Team 2 in a much worse situation than, say, Azumarill or any strong sweeper that was proposed; while it doesn't pack the same explosive power of those pokemon, his supporting capabilities and the fact it's an offensive pivot (try to set up on 145 Atk EQ + U-Turn + the chance to lose your item...) just make it much harder to handle for the enemy team.

I have to disagree with your assessment of starting with a sweeper. Using Azumarill as an example (the same way you were happy to), it has very few counters. Even Pokemon with incredible physical bulk such as Skarmory can't switch in. Azumarill will Belly Drum on the switch, and then:
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 330-388 (98.8 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Rocks being up or recoil from Brave Bird make it certain. The only Pokemon that can counter Azumarill are Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and a very few others. If we pick Azumarill, they are immediately stuck with one of those few choices, each of which are easily counterable. There is nothing wrong with picking an incredibly strong sweeper with few counters as our first Pokemon.

 

[ganj4lF]

I have to disagree with your assessment of starting with a sweeper. Using Azumarill as an example (the same way you were happy to), it has very few counters. Even Pokemon with incredible physical bulk such as Skarmory can't switch in. Azumarill will Belly Drum on the switch, and then:
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 330-388 (98.8 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Rocks being up or recoil from Brave Bird make it certain. The only Pokemon that can counter Azumarill are Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and a very few others. If we pick Azumarill, they are immediately stuck with one of those few choices, each of which are easily counterable. There is nothing wrong with picking an incredibly strong sweeper with few counters as our first Pokemon.

That's not the point. They are indeed stuck with ONE very specific pick (M-Venusaur is not a bad bick by any stretch anyway), but that pick does completely stop your sweeper of choice. Going Landorus-T means that, even if the opponent picks something Lando-T can't even remotely touch, we can still U-Turn out, SR on the switch, maybe make them lose their item. We don't commit to a boosting move, so we don't risk being forced out; instead, we can do many useful things on the switch that, even if they're not hurting directly the counter Team 2 will throw at us, will pay off for the used turn regardless.

Not to mention you are assuming a free switch for Azumarill somehow, which Team 2 will likely try to deny you in any way possible. Landorus-T is doing work as soon as it switches in with Intimidate, making him quite hard to render completely useless.