But Espeon needs Baton Pass to escape Pursuit. People can use Baton Pass on Espeon for other uses than passing stat boosts
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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I'd say I'm a modest enough BP player myself, so I about know what it can and can't handle. I've additionally fought enough passing Scoliopede's to know that he can't take constant pressure and that he has no recovery. He also has no priority, so really strong priority (like I don't know, Gale Wings Brave Bird?) screws him over hard.
How are they less "autonomous" than BP? I see that you're grossly oversimplying the situation here.
It's not like people aren't doing that anyway. Also, considering that he alone can take on at least half of a BP team by himself, and has TONS of utility aside from that, that seems like it could be a fair trade off.
Talonflame has two or more checks and counters, a list actually, even himself being a check.
And surely Talonflame doesn't invalidate Grass types. Have you played the OU metagame, or better yet laddered?
Talonflame doesn't force you to run one obscure, dedicated counter just to counter and prevent his sweep.
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The problem with Baton Pass is that it's very teamwork oriented. Every single member plays an important part of the team, and if just one of them gets KO'd, it severely disrupts the "chemistry" of the team. The only thing that's "all or nothing" about it is that one of them gets KO'd at the wrong time, the rest of the team tends to crumble afterwards. This is why constant pressure is the best way of dealing with BP
Stall can be dealt with in an assortment of ways; I believe you're oversimplifying, and attempting the common argument fallacy of Reductio ad Absurdum. Stall and HO are not autonomous in that they can't acquire boosts freely or trivially, and either sweep or destroy most of the opponent's team. Stall and HO do not have 1 niche counter, nor do they restrict teambuilding and limit gameplay.
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
First of all, your continuous rudeness and condescension toward several users are misplaced and unnecessary, so perhaps it is you who should refrain from posting in such a manner.
You said here that Prankster Taunt is the only hard counter after I brought up Haze. Espeon can block Taunt, but Haze is foolproof against Baton Pass. I mentioned Prankster Murkrow as only an example user of it but I recommend Unaware Quagsire more than anything.
The fact that Haze is uncommon or "niche" does not disprove that carrying this one move screws full Baton Pass completely, and it's distribution is low, which I am not denying, but the fact that there are users of this move with Unaware and Prankster gives it the exact edge it needs to overcome this entire strategy and screw the whole team with almost no effort, thereby ridding your whole team of the issue. This is by far the best answer and deserves consideration.
If players acknowledge this and make the conscious decision to not include it in their team, they can only blame themselves when they run into full Baton Pass. If players choose to not cover this threat, they have little right to complain about it and should probably take a step back and actually consider the relevant threats of the current metagame when teambuilding, because this strategy is very easily stopped and is only annoying to people who refuse to prepare for it.
Your example is rather bad as to 'adapt' to Mega Pinsir I can throw Physically Defensive Zapdos on just about any team and it will help greatly towards achieving this goal while still being a decent/good pokemon against teams that arent packing Mega Pinsir and Zapdos is just an example as there's a bunch of things that can check/counter or hinder Pinsir from doing it's job all of which are legit pokemon who have other uses than (soft) countering a single playstyle.
Quagsire is a terrible mon outside of pure stall teams and Haze Quagsire has essentially one niche, to hinder full BP teams, which it doesn't even do reliably as Stored Power Espeon can easily OHKO Quag with even a small amount of stat boosts, it can easily be Taunted or Spored as it's incredibly slow and BP Teams always run a Scoli to boost speed.
Prankster+Taunt doesn't have the greatest distribution, especially amongst OU viable mons, essentially only Thundurus-I and some niche things like Tornadus-I, Sableye and Whimsicott.
The fact that you mention Murkrow alone only further weakens your argument as no one in their right mind would ever consider bringing Murkrow on a normal OU team (outside of Swagger which is now banned).
The reliance on mostly obscure counters which for the most part would leave you 5v6 against any non BP teams and all but guarantee a win vs full BP teams just to have a chance to win against a playstyle that could be effectively played by a basic AI/script should tell you there's a problem.
The very nature of BP teams is that nothing ever dies so your point is very moot...
The point is that he forces you to run something that can deal with him. You can't teambuild without taking him into account.
I had to google what that meant, and I still don't get it :(
I'm going to pick at this here for a minute. This sounds like a setup sweeper, which is pretty much what BP tends to be. A 6 man setup sweeper. I don't think anyone's gonna argue that setup sweeping is broken, because it's easily felled by not letting the sweeper set up. So likewise with a BP team, why are you allowing them to set up? Scoliopede is by no means invincible. He can be overcome before he does serious damage. In fact, if there's a scoilopede mindlessly boosting, start throwing out hazards. Yeah, Espeon will come out right away, but guess what? Not only is Scoliopede out of the picture, but if you predict the Espeon switch in, you can lay into it as it comes in. Not only have you halted their speed boosting, but you've crippled what is likely their win condition, and gained a serious advantage.
PS: Can you be just a little less condescending? Pretty please?
The way I see it, Baton Pass isn't really broken by itself; however, when used to build for a whole team, that's where it's crossing the line.
These full-BP teams take little prediction to use. They're just pick the appropriate defense booster and hope for the best styles of play. Very little skill is applied in this case, compared to the more bread-and-butter styles. All you have to do is know what to boost, then auto-win or ragequit happens. It's easy to get suspect reqs with this type of team (especially the last one, #Swag) as there is no need to think hard when playing. All that is needed is to amass defensive stats early in the game until it is impossible to be penetrated, then boost offensively.
Stopping them from the beginning isn't easy either, as they can just BP out of what threatens them and boost on their faces. An example of this scenario is Scolipede against Latios. The Scolipede will BP out to Sylveon. The Sylveon then CM's on Latios' switch to Scizor. Sylveon then BPs to Vaporeon and Acid Armors (you get the idea). As shown, a BP Pokemon can just pass a way to a teammate who makes a threat set-up fodder.
Now, that leaves us to counterplay to beat them. Well, Prankster Taunt and Encore are good, but it can be seriously seen from a mile away. In addition, BP pokemon can also run a Mental Herb in order to bypass this if need be. This is also countered by Magic Bounce Espeon, who can't be easily be beaten with enough boosts and is often the wincon (win condition for those unknowing). Another counter people might be thinking is priority, notably Talonflame's BB. However, this isn't foolproof as enough Defense boosts can shut this down and if it's Talonflame we're talking about, Gliscor and Zapdos laugh at it; Speed Boost maybe good, but it's not required. There's also recoil on BB that Talonflame dislikes. This just shows that they have answers to our answers as well. The only real way to answer BP is to use Haze on reliable Pokemon such as Murkrow and Quagsire; the problem here is that Quagsire isn't really splashable in offense, and Murkrow is shit bar in lower tiers and LC. If I have to use those just to beat a whole archetype, I'd play another meta rather.
Now, I don't if I have said this already but I think it's kinda unhealthy (in a broken and unfun way) for the metagame. That is my stand on this case.
What I suggest is to limit Baton Pass to one or two a mon in a team. Why not just ban it entirely? Well, Baton Pass has other neat uses such as escaping Pursuit or gaining momentum akin to U-turn. Quickpassing styles such as Scolipede by themeselves aren't quite broken either. Removing BP itself only removes a valid option in an otherwise rather bland meta in my personal (and maybe yours too, reader) view. Limiting this to at most two gives most players wiggle room by stopping full BP while not entirely removing the option to pass around. Also, not three cause one can get all utilities from just three mons really and it's not good to see do just that and break.
This is my 2 Centavos on the case of BP. Kthnxbai. :]
These full-BP teams take little prediction to use. They're just pick the appropriate defense booster and hope for the best styles of play. Very little skill is applied in this case, compared to the more bread-and-butter styles. All you have to do is know what to boost, then auto-win or ragequit happens. It's easy to get suspect reqs with this type of team (especially the last one, #Swag) as there is no need to think hard when playing. All that is needed is to amass defensive stats early in the game until it is impossible to be penetrated, then boost offensively.
Stopping them from the beginning isn't easy either, as they can just BP out of what threatens them and boost on their faces. An example of this scenario is Scolipede against Latios. The Scolipede will BP out to Sylveon. The Sylveon then CM's on Latios' switch to Scizor. Sylveon then BPs to Vaporeon and Acid Armors (you get the idea). As shown, a BP Pokemon can just pass a way to a teammate who makes a threat set-up fodder.
Now, that leaves us to counterplay to beat them. Well, Prankster Taunt and Encore are good, but it can be seriously seen from a mile away. In addition, BP pokemon can also run a Mental Herb in order to bypass this if need be. This is also countered by Magic Bounce Espeon, who can't be easily be beaten with enough boosts and is often the wincon (win condition for those unknowing). Another counter people might be thinking is priority, notably Talonflame's BB. However, this isn't foolproof as enough Defense boosts can shut this down and if it's Talonflame we're talking about, Gliscor and Zapdos laugh at it; Speed Boost maybe good, but it's not required. There's also recoil on BB that Talonflame dislikes. This just shows that they have answers to our answers as well. The only real way to answer BP is to use Haze on reliable Pokemon such as Murkrow and Quagsire; the problem here is that Quagsire isn't really splashable in offense, and Murkrow is shit bar in lower tiers and LC. If I have to use those just to beat a whole archetype, I'd play another meta rather.
Now, I don't if I have said this already but I think it's kinda unhealthy (in a broken and unfun way) for the metagame. That is my stand on this case.
What I suggest is to limit Baton Pass to one or two a mon in a team. Why not just ban it entirely? Well, Baton Pass has other neat uses such as escaping Pursuit or gaining momentum akin to U-turn. Quickpassing styles such as Scolipede by themeselves aren't quite broken either. Removing BP itself only removes a valid option in an otherwise rather bland meta in my personal (and maybe yours too, reader) view. Limiting this to at most two gives most players wiggle room by stopping full BP while not entirely removing the option to pass around. Also, not three cause one can get all utilities from just three mons really and it's not good to see do just that and break.
This is my 2 Centavos on the case of BP. Kthnxbai. :]
It's not rude to note a player has lack of sufficient knowledge: it was stated to refrain from posting misinformed, ignorant, and/or bias 'arguments'.
It has already been established Unaware Quagsire is not a counter to Baton Pass, and isn't really viable in the OU environment. You have both admitted Haze is uncommon, and Prankster Haze is among one single Pokemon that, too, is not really viable in OU, but an obscure and niche counter.
Your argument remains the same: All players must incorporate Quagsire and/or Murkrow on his or her team. And if by your argument, why ban Mega Kanga on account of Prankster Will-O-Wisp Sableeye? Why ban Mega Blaziken? Mega Gengar? Lucario? Because they are overcentralizing, autonomous, broken and/or uncompetitive within their respective metagame. Or should we be forced to
Again, this isn't an argument whether Baton Pass can be stopped or not.
We're discussing if Baton Pass is unhealthy for the metagame. I have established Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon in conjunction with Baton Pass exacerbates the metagame; it is unhealthy for the development of the metagame.
For such an "easily counterable" archetype, Baton Pass is high on the ladder for a reason, and those two reasons are Scolipede and Espeon.
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So flying spam does well against BP
HO in general does well too
Doesn't Charizard-Y lead just kill things?
Landorus-I is pretty troublesome for it
LO Aegislash with Shadow Ball and Iron Head maims the team pretty well
If you break the sub, ditto can switch in and pass to your own sweeper
Powerful sound based moves like Hyper Voice and Boom Burst can give the team problems
Sand will negate their leftovers recovery and TTar can use band stone edge or ddance up
Sand will negate their leftovers recovery and hippo can try to whirlwind
Spamming certain moves right at the start can kill one of the links
Fast choice scarf trick/switcheroo is devastating
You can boost right at the start with something that hits their phazer really hard
Prankster Taunt and Prankster Encore can work
Even normal Taunt and Encore can work if espeon isn't already in
Mold Breaker Taunt / Roar / Toxic etc
Perish Song is useable on some select pokemon
Haze can work and has good users like Quagsire, Dragonite, Gengar, and Greninja
An unexpected Roar or Whirlwind will break the chain
Infiltrator has useable options
No single option guarantees the win because the BP user has a brain too, but I think putting together say 3 of the above into a team is viable and possible for any archetype of team. I would roughly estimate that I win half my matches against BP and lose half of them, sometimes it takes a sneaky surprise on my part, sometimes I have the perfect effortless counter pokemon, and sometimes they have unique and interesting BP users on their team with their own surprises in store for me.
HO in general does well too
Doesn't Charizard-Y lead just kill things?
Landorus-I is pretty troublesome for it
LO Aegislash with Shadow Ball and Iron Head maims the team pretty well
If you break the sub, ditto can switch in and pass to your own sweeper
Powerful sound based moves like Hyper Voice and Boom Burst can give the team problems
Sand will negate their leftovers recovery and TTar can use band stone edge or ddance up
Sand will negate their leftovers recovery and hippo can try to whirlwind
Spamming certain moves right at the start can kill one of the links
Fast choice scarf trick/switcheroo is devastating
You can boost right at the start with something that hits their phazer really hard
Prankster Taunt and Prankster Encore can work
Even normal Taunt and Encore can work if espeon isn't already in
Mold Breaker Taunt / Roar / Toxic etc
Perish Song is useable on some select pokemon
Haze can work and has good users like Quagsire, Dragonite, Gengar, and Greninja
An unexpected Roar or Whirlwind will break the chain
Infiltrator has useable options
No single option guarantees the win because the BP user has a brain too, but I think putting together say 3 of the above into a team is viable and possible for any archetype of team. I would roughly estimate that I win half my matches against BP and lose half of them, sometimes it takes a sneaky surprise on my part, sometimes I have the perfect effortless counter pokemon, and sometimes they have unique and interesting BP users on their team with their own surprises in store for me.
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
The whole point of using Haze is to not allow Espeon to attain the boosts needed for Stored Power. That move does pitiful damage without the boosts that Haze removes. Espeon is faster and will kill Quagsire with this move before it can use Haze, but this is only assuming that the Quagsire is dumb enough to allow that many boosts to be passed to Espeon in the first place. Additionally, there are not that many Taunt users that full Baton Pass uses, so It's not like Quagsire won't be able to find a time to use Haze, and nothing with Baton Pass gets Spore outside of Smeargle, which is now easily blocked by simply having a Grass-type or Overcoat mon like Mandibuzz.
Outside of countering full Baton Pass, I think Quagsire deserves more credit than being called terrible. It has only one weakness and can run Toxic/Curse stall reasonably well. One might say "Yea it has one real weakness and it's defensive but it's huge setup bait" but that also pretty accurately describes Ferrothorn. A Pokemon that does the job required of it well does it's job and should not be expected to be flawless outside of its purpose. If it's enough of a metagame threat to be discussed here like this, I don't think it can be called a waste when it bests the whole strategy.
If you run into a team that doesn't have it, so what. It's common enough to be discussed here, so obviously it's on a lot of teams anyway and therefore can hardly be considered a waste, and its answers at least deserve acknowledgement.
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A player isn't forced to run a specific, dedicated Talonflame counter. Talonflame is not autonomous. Talonflame literally has no place on this thread.
Your strawman arguments have been reduced to include Hazard setting as an argument against Baton Pass chains?
P.S. please read the arguments. You're missing the point.
You think Quagsire deserves more credit in the 6th Gen OU metagame? You're free to check out the statistics and usage. Quagsire isn't a Baton Pass counter, and a niche check at that. If every player is forced to run Quagsire and/or Murkrow on account of one archetype/strategy, said archetype/strategy is unhealthy for the metagame.
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Haze is not a viable move in this metagame though, outside of dealing with Baton pass teams, and that's the problem. When you need to use a move so niche and outclassed in this metagame just to deal with Baton Pass teams, you know something is wrong. A strategy / Pokemon needs ways to deal with it that are viable even outside of dealing with said strategy / Pokemon in order to be considered manageable or not broken, and Baton Pass teams have very few, while providing insta-wins against a lot of playstyles, which in turn heavily undermines the healthiness of our metagame.
So far, the best solution to me seems to not allow more than 2 or 3 Baton Pass users on a team. Baton Pass teams die, without killing any of their components, all of which provide something to the OU metagame.
Oh jeez, I completely forgot about Ditto. Yeah, that situation is incredibly dangerous for the BP player, if Ditto gets in and passes your boosts to the wrong thing, that's a wrap right then and there.
Haze pretty much stops setup sweepers dead in their tracks and forces them to do something different. It's similar to phazing, except without the reduced priority
Pretty much all the viable Haze users in OU have better moves to use, especially Quagsire, which has zero use for Haze outside of dealing with Baton Pass teams, thanks to its ability, which deals with set up sweepers already. To put it simply, if it wasn't for Baton Pass teams no Pokemon would use Haze in OU.
Except by fuck ups I don't mean miss predictions, I mean actual fuck ups, like using substitute vs Whimsicott or something of that nature.
All the BP players has to do is set up a few boosts and BP to Espeon if he expects a Taunt/Phazing move, get an opportunity to set up Ingrain and eventually have enough boosts that nothing but a crit can lose him the game.
There's very little prediction needed to play BP effectively, especially compared to other playstyles.
Unless you lead with Quagsire those boosts will happen, and even if you do Haze they can just start the chain over as Quagsire has very little offensive presence (especially if it's running Haze) and even without any boosts Sylveon has a pretty good shot at 2HKOing Quag:
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spore could be replaced for Dark Void if Grass mons/Overcoat are a big issue, anyway the point is BP has plenty of ways to deal with your proposed 'hard counter' which is a dead weight against non BP teams on anything but pure stall as it completely kills any momentum on offensive teams.
Curse Quagsire is simply awful, if you think this is OU viable then I have to question if you actually play the tier... Calling Ferrothorn setup bait when it commonly carries Thunder Wave as well as Leech Seed further solidifies this suspicion.
And Quagsire has been acknowledged throughout this time as a (solid) way to deal with BP teams, but it's hardly a hard counter and still a very niche OU mon that you shouldn't be forced to run on every team just because BP exists as a playstyle.
Except Haze has poor distribution and virtually no viability in OU, and still outpaced by nature of Speed Boost, except for one Prankster Haze in Murkrow, which too lacks viability in OU, and is a niche counter. Forcing all players to run Prankster Haze Murkrow just in case of Baton Pass is intrinsically restrictive to teambuilding and gameplay, and proves Baton Pass has one single, obscure countermeasure. By definition, it exacerbates the metagame.
There's Milotic, which managed to at least get an OU analysis this time around, and her defensive sets, which can feature Haze, got a mention there. Speaking of, her main stab at least threatens stray burns, which will force the BP player to bust out their cleric, if they even have one. That's valuable time that could cost them all their precious boosts.
Yeah, I told myself i wasn't gonna reply to you anymore because your condescending tone really tests my civility, but alas. You have a really bad habit of taking things and jumping to broad conclusions that simplify the situation in a bad way. As that one nice post from 56K points out, there are a TON of things that can shut down BP that you can run, and they can do a million other things. Priority in general is a very big problem for BP teams because all they really have to beat it is Sucker Punches from Mega Absol and Mega Mawile, and not only are those two mons that can't really afford to come out swinging, but sucker punch will fail by simply having faster priority, and you can apply pressure on Scolipde so that he doesn't get that speed.
Speaking of Mega Mawile, she is very much a problem for BP teams. They can't boost defense faster than she can boost attack. Stored Power needs a retarded amount of boosts before it comes even close to taking out Mega Mawile. In fact, lets' say we got Espeon 2 iron defenses and an agility (via 2 speed boosts)
252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Meanwhile...
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The three turns it took to get espeon all that power were more than enough for Mega Mawile to boost up, and she probably jacked up Scolipede while he was boosting. We're also assuming that she was nice enough to let you get in for free and not totally murder you while as you were baton passing in.
Based Haunter. Ban this sick filth
I reached top 50 on the OU ladder about a week ago using full stall, and every time I played against a BP team against someone competent there was literally nothing I could ever do about it, as none of my pokemon were capable of even securing a crit strong enough to break through the chain. This is incredibly anecdotle of my experiences with a singular stall team, but I am pretty confident others have had identical experiences high up on the ladder. Also, most people have already made the point of 'either you shit on it or get 6-0'd', which I completely agree with, so I'll leave that there.
Look at what you've got that can shut down BP reliably. Talonflame, Dragon Tail from bulky Kyurem-b, Unaware Clefable against teams without Scizor, Haze? Haze. How can anyone be seriously encouraging Haze when it is single purpose (alexwolf has explained this adequately), essentially useless against non-BP teams. If you're that desparate to check BP teams, you're better off using Psych Up Unaware Babiri Clefable.
I reached top 50 on the OU ladder about a week ago using full stall, and every time I played against a BP team against someone competent there was literally nothing I could ever do about it, as none of my pokemon were capable of even securing a crit strong enough to break through the chain. This is incredibly anecdotle of my experiences with a singular stall team, but I am pretty confident others have had identical experiences high up on the ladder. Also, most people have already made the point of 'either you shit on it or get 6-0'd', which I completely agree with, so I'll leave that there.
Look at what you've got that can shut down BP reliably. Talonflame, Dragon Tail from bulky Kyurem-b, Unaware Clefable against teams without Scizor, Haze? Haze. How can anyone be seriously encouraging Haze when it is single purpose (alexwolf has explained this adequately), essentially useless against non-BP teams. If you're that desparate to check BP teams, you're better off using Psych Up Unaware Babiri Clefable.
Just want to put it out there but talon isn't a foolproof way of dealing with BP teams.Gliscor and Zapdos are pretty common in BP teams and can deal with talon pretty well. (as long as you run stone edge on gliscor ofc)
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%)
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%)
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%)
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zapdos: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%)
Actually, Haze Unaware Quagsire is pretty good in general. As seen in this, great, almost unbreakable stall team. This team topped the ladder before this whole BP team was really popularized and is one of the best stall teams in the game. It isn't hindered by Haze Quagsire either, it's an integral part to the team that allows it to get over bulky set up sweepers.
Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
No. Out of all generic team archetypes, I have a MUCH easier time beating the full Baton Pass team than, say stall or Deo/Sharp HO. Though, to be fair, most of my teams have Volcarona and Scizor (mostly because I love them) and a phaser of some kind. If I can outpredict to remove the boosts (haze being the move that gives these teams the hardest time), and wear them down, they're not doing a whole lot to me. A weakened, unboosted BP team is setup fodder for my bugs. These teams usually pack 3 things that are weak to Scizor's moveset (espeon, Mr Mime, Sylveon), and one that dies to him anyway (Smeargle). Most of these teams also die pretty fast to strong special attacks with their boosts gone. Volcarona is perfect for eliminating many things on these teams, with his own boost move. Bug Buzz hits behind subs, and hits most members of these teams hard. Quiver Dance will boost special defense in addition to speed, making it more difficult for these teams to take him out.
That being said, nothing is a free win against these teams. They often get their own hax too, for example their own crits or moves like Scald/Tbolt getting burns/paralysis or my moves missing. But I still find them to be much more manageable than the other generic team archetypes on upper ladder. I do understand why people have a tough time, though. Most offensive teams do not have room for Haze, and not every team suits my favorite bugs. If an offensive team lacks a dark type and a decent wallbreaker, there isn't much stopping Stored Power from shredding through everything.
If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
If anything, it's those teams that aren't full BP but still have a Scoliopede, to pass attack/speed boosts to a completely different target, such as a Mega Pinsir or a Bisharp a lot harder to deal with. With these teams, you can't necessarily predict what your opponent will think of as a possible recipient (most of these teams use 3 dangerous physical sweepers, often running additional coverage moves instead of their own boost since they have Scoliopede), and they tend to boost atk over def. If your haze user dies, or if they have a recipient that can hard counter it (such as a grass type in the case of Quagsire, or a ground type if you're running Roar on Heatran), it is a lot harder to deal with than the full BP team. But still not completely broken or worthy of a ban IMO. Like anything, it can be played around/must be considered.
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
It would make it easier to manage, that's for sure. But I don't think banning them is necessary.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Absolutely not. Even if full BP teams weren't a thing, the move has uses that go beyond passing boosts, such as escaping Pursuit traps. With Pursuit being extremely common, it's nice to be able to use Baton Pass for the sheer utility of the move if you have a ghost or psychic type that has access to the move.
Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
No. Partial BP teams are more difficult to deal with than the full BP team, due to being far less predictable. Neither is broken.
No. Out of all generic team archetypes, I have a MUCH easier time beating the full Baton Pass team than, say stall or Deo/Sharp HO. Though, to be fair, most of my teams have Volcarona and Scizor (mostly because I love them) and a phaser of some kind. If I can outpredict to remove the boosts (haze being the move that gives these teams the hardest time), and wear them down, they're not doing a whole lot to me. A weakened, unboosted BP team is setup fodder for my bugs. These teams usually pack 3 things that are weak to Scizor's moveset (espeon, Mr Mime, Sylveon), and one that dies to him anyway (Smeargle). Most of these teams also die pretty fast to strong special attacks with their boosts gone. Volcarona is perfect for eliminating many things on these teams, with his own boost move. Bug Buzz hits behind subs, and hits most members of these teams hard. Quiver Dance will boost special defense in addition to speed, making it more difficult for these teams to take him out.
That being said, nothing is a free win against these teams. They often get their own hax too, for example their own crits or moves like Scald/Tbolt getting burns/paralysis or my moves missing. But I still find them to be much more manageable than the other generic team archetypes on upper ladder. I do understand why people have a tough time, though. Most offensive teams do not have room for Haze, and not every team suits my favorite bugs. If an offensive team lacks a dark type and a decent wallbreaker, there isn't much stopping Stored Power from shredding through everything.
If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
If anything, it's those teams that aren't full BP but still have a Scoliopede, to pass attack/speed boosts to a completely different target, such as a Mega Pinsir or a Bisharp a lot harder to deal with. With these teams, you can't necessarily predict what your opponent will think of as a possible recipient (most of these teams use 3 dangerous physical sweepers, often running additional coverage moves instead of their own boost since they have Scoliopede), and they tend to boost atk over def. If your haze user dies, or if they have a recipient that can hard counter it (such as a grass type in the case of Quagsire, or a ground type if you're running Roar on Heatran), it is a lot harder to deal with than the full BP team. But still not completely broken or worthy of a ban IMO. Like anything, it can be played around/must be considered.
Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
It would make it easier to manage, that's for sure. But I don't think banning them is necessary.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Absolutely not. Even if full BP teams weren't a thing, the move has uses that go beyond passing boosts, such as escaping Pursuit traps. With Pursuit being extremely common, it's nice to be able to use Baton Pass for the sheer utility of the move if you have a ghost or psychic type that has access to the move.
Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
No. Partial BP teams are more difficult to deal with than the full BP team, due to being far less predictable. Neither is broken.
I wouldn't call haze a completely unviable move. It definitely isn't the best move, has garbage distribution, etc, etc. But stat boosts are everywhere, even outside of baton pass teams. It is a decent filler on stuff like Tentacruel or Vaporeon if you have a team with a bad matchup versus baton pass. And if you have problems with baton pass teams encouraging the use of a move that gives you a way better matchup isn't a bad idea, is it? Of course it's not the best move, but if you are desperate to check bp why the hell wouldn't you use it? There are many mons/moves that are used only to check/counter something very specific and nobody calls them bad.
An interesting mon that has tools to fuck with bp teams is Zygarde. It gets Haze and Extremespeed. Taunt Knock off thundurus is really strong against many team archetypes and gives you a good matchup. I already mentioned Vap and Cruel and there are a couple more.
As for banning baton pass as a move, i don't think that is the best solution. Baton pass is a good move with alot strategic uses outside of full baton pass chains. Quickpassing (Joltwak in gsc as the earliest example) isn't broken at all.
An interesting mon that has tools to fuck with bp teams is Zygarde. It gets Haze and Extremespeed. Taunt Knock off thundurus is really strong against many team archetypes and gives you a good matchup. I already mentioned Vap and Cruel and there are a couple more.
As for banning baton pass as a move, i don't think that is the best solution. Baton pass is a good move with alot strategic uses outside of full baton pass chains. Quickpassing (Joltwak in gsc as the earliest example) isn't broken at all.
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