Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[ArcanineLion]

Is the problem with full BP teams not that Espeon can come in & stop you from Taunting or Roaring out the chain, because without Magic Bounce, it's very easy to just do that & ruin all that setup? Surely then the answer is banning BP + Magic Bounce? Any other type of ban hinders teambuilding negatively. Someone might want to use Scolipede on their team, or use just one Passer on a team, or Espeon for Magic Bounce. All of whch aren't broken on their own, not by a long shot.

Is it not just another playstyle that you should think about when teambuilding? Removing Magic Bounce from a full BP team means it's still a viable strategy without being overpowered enough that you can lose at the Team Preview screen. & if you really don't want to carry something to deal with that playstyle like you do with others, is that not your own fault for not covering all of your bases? Seems to me like Magic Bounce on a BP team is the real issue here.

 

[Lazybeef]

Finally, I hope you keep an open mind too. If the upper ladder is dominated by baton pass teams, obviously it is in need of some nerfing, however I doubt that baton pass this gen is used more than drizzle was last gen.

Happy battling everyone,
Zizzy

Good post, just want to adress this last bit. Remember, drizzle teams were nerfed ALOT last gen. First banning Drizzle+Swift swim on the same team and later banning thundurus and tornadus-T. If it is overpowered it should be nerfed to the point where it is manageable for a standard team.

 

[escarlata]

You said "There is literally no Fairy type that actually normally run Baton Pass outside of dedicated chains"
mr mime does in lower tiers. That's my point

This is the Overused subforum, and since Mr Mime "literally doesn't run Baton Pass outside of dedicated chains" where this subforum is concerned, it is still a valid point. And why even bother cherry-picking on such a trivial wording. Ok fine, I shall put in 'in OU' in my original post, if that irks some people so much

EDIT: Mr. Mime was in D-rank in NU last gen, not like anyone cares about his viability anyway so killing his viability isn't that harsh.
EDIT2: I have no intention using the reply button because it is just so trivial to be arguing about

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

This is the Overused subforum, and since Mr Mime "literally doesn't run Baton Pass outside of dedicated chains" where this subforum is concerned, it is still a valid point. And why even bother cherry-picking on such a trivial wording. Ok fine, I shall put in 'in OU' in my original post, if that irks some people so much

bans that happen in ou happen in lower tiers automatically.

 

[Rotosect]

I don't think a complex ban is the best way to handle the issue.
Swagger was banned entirely even though the issue were PranksterSwag teams, which abused the combination of Prankster, Foul Play, paralysis, hazards and ScarfDitto. Swagger by itself was merely luck-based, just like freeze and flinch are, but it wasn't broken enough to warrant a ban if such team archetypes didn't exist.

The culprit isn't Baton Pass, Magic Bounce or Speed Boost - what makes BP extremely hard to deal with is Stored Power, a crazy powerful attack that lets Espeon and Sylveon do astonishing things like OHKOing Eviolite Chansey and Unaware users.
If we're really going to nerf baton pass teams I think any form of complex ban should be avoided and just the move Stored Power should be banned.
This way the team archetype isn't destroyed and Chansey, Clefable and Quagsire (and to a lesser extent, dark types) become reliable answers to it.

Sure, Stored Power does have other uses outside BP chains (Clefable and Sigilyph), but the same argument could have been used for Swagger (especially on Unaware users - I know it's a shitty gimmick but non-BP Stored Power isn't much better).
So if a complex Prankster+Swagger ban didn't happen, I don't see why a complex Stored Power+Baton pass should.

 

[ArcanineLion]

I don't think a complex ban is the best way to handle the issue.
Swagger was banned entirely even though the issue were PranksterSwag teams, which abused the combination of Prankster, Foul Play, paralysis, hazards and ScarfDitto. Swagger by itself was merely luck-based, just like freeze and flinch are, but it wasn't broken enough to warrant a ban if such team archetypes didn't exist.

The culprit isn't Baton Pass, Magic Bounce or Speed Boost - what makes BP extremely hard to deal with is Stored Power, a crazy powerful attack that lets Espeon and Sylveon do astonishing things like OHKOing Eviolite Chansey and Unaware users.
If we're really going to nerf baton pass teams I think any form of complex ban should be avoided and just the move Stored Power should be banned.
This way the team archetype isn't destroyed and Chansey, Clefable and Quagsire (and to a lesser extent, dark types) become reliable answers to it.

The thing is, if most people saw a match where they let an opponent boost up to +6, everyone would be like "well you let them beat you by not dealing with it, just Taunt or Roar it" or something to that effect. You can't do that on a BP team because of Magic Bounce. So Espeon's Stored Power would never get to do that sort of damage if you could Roar it out in the first place. I think Magic Bounce is what makes it broken, not Stored Power.

 

[Halcyon.]

EDIT: Apparently this post isn't clear enough but I'm pro-ban .-.

I really don't understand why people are freaking out over this. Since gen 3, there's been a sort of "gentleman's agreement" when it comes to Baton Pass: don't use it. This is something that has been going on since Smogon's inception. If you respect your opponent and want to represent your own skill in a match and not a team's effectiveness, you brought a normal team and not garbage like Baton Pass. It seems to me, a suspect of Baton Pass would just be putting into writing what has already been agreed upon for the last 4 generations: don't be a asshole and use Baton Pass. I'm glad that someone brought up Costa's match because if you look at the chat (and if you talked to SPL players afterwards), everyone was freaking out and furious with Costa for bringing the strategy. I find it hilarious (and simultaneously disgusting) that people can sit here and say that Baton Pass is a "playstyle" that requires "skill." Neither of those words should ever be used to describe Baton Pass. My thoughts on this can be broken down into a few main points:

It takes little-to-no skill to play BP
The skill level it takes to win with Baton Pass is minimal. You can't sit there and tell me that it takes skill to switch into Espeon on a lead Thundurus (or sylveon because guess what: it beats Thundy without BP :O a crazy concept, I know). It takes no skill to create a 50/50. People have been throwing around the idea of "predictions" as if they mean anything. Predicting is nothing. Prediction is just glorified guesswork. Sure, there might be situational pressure for your pressure for your opponent to make one more or another, but really it comes down to being right or being wrong. Baton Pass may have to "guess" what the opponent is going to do (although I don't really think this is even true due to the nature of Baton Pass eliminating the element of double switches or anything of the sort). Predictions=/=skill and anyone who says it does is kidding themselves into thinking that they somehow develop the ability to read minds the more they play Pokemon (hint: you don't). Rather, BP is more formulaic. Switching is taken out of the equation since BP gives the team switch initiative. If opponent brings out A, send out X, if the opponent brings out B, send out Y. Some might say that this is simply an element of Pokemon in itself, but BP doesn't have nearly as much pressure as a normal team when switching around. First, it gains Defensive boosts. Second, usually these are games without hazards, and if you DO set up hazards, you give the BP team more time to boost.

While not overcentralizing, it is an outlier in the meta
Baton Pass has no counters. Everything that has been mentioned in this thread so far can be stopped by something on BP. On the rare occasions when the opponent has something that might break Baton Pass chain (note: not the team, just the singular chain), there are easy fixes. Talonflame? Zapdos. Prankster Taunt? Mental Herb is your friend. Boosting sweepers is my favorite, because clearly you people have not heard about my friend Encore. Both Mime and Smeargle can carry Encore and it completely ruins any attempt to beat BP with your own setup sweeper. Even Mega Pinsir is beaten by Focus Sash Smeargle (Spore is also your friend). Now, this might seem like an exaggeration to some, and obviously no Baton Pass team (that I've seen anyway) has counters to everything. No team does, for that matter. But BP causes an unhealthy shift in the meta. It is, by definition an outlier. People can say it's overcentrailizing, but that's not true. It's an obscure threat, sure (well, except the top of the ladder), but that's exactly the issue. I personally believe that Baton Pass is too obscure to be given a serious thought in team building. Moreover, the checks that exist to Baton Pass are also obscure. Taunt Thundy is only used for BP and Deo-S. haze Quagsire only works on stall, and even then it has better things to use its moveslots for. Trick Sableye or Klefki is complete garbage. Talonflame doesn't even check BP so idk what people are talking about here ?_? Zapdos and Vaporeon easily set up on it. These things are not normally seen in the meta (cept Talon which is not a counter at all lmfao), and I don't think that they are within a reasonable margin to call it a "meta shift."

Baton Pass is, for the most part, reliant on matchup to win
You can say that Baton Pass can lose to regular teams, and I'm sure it has. But I doubt these losses were by normal means. Perhaps a crit or a critical misplay cot the match for the BP user, but there is almost no way outside of luck that a normal team (one that fits within the margin I talked about in the last post) can handle BP. Most games with BP are decided at team preview short of hax. This is clearly shown in the SPL match with Costa. He would have won without hax, with hax, he lost. It's really as simple as that. I have played BP. I have played against BP. I have watched competent players use BP. It is, in the hands of a competent player, an entirely matchup based strategy, with very VERY few things it doesn't match up well against.

tl;dr: we already have a de facto ban on it anyway, why not make it de jure? .-.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I really don't understand why people are freaking out over this. Since gen 3, there's been a sort of "gentleman's agreement" when it comes to Baton Pass: don't use it. This is something that has been going on since Smogon's inception. If you respect your opponent and want to represent your own skill in a match and not a team's effectiveness, you brought a normal team and not garbage like Baton Pass. It seems to me, a suspect of Baton Pass would just be putting into writing what has already been agreed upon for the last 4 generations: don't be a asshole and use Baton Pass. I'm glad that someone brought up Costa's match because if you look at the chat (and if you talked to SPL players afterwards), everyone was freaking out and furious with Costa for bringing the strategy. I find it hilarious (and simultaneously disgusting) that people can sit here and say that Baton Pass is a "playstyle" that requires "skill." Neither of those words should ever be used to describe Baton Pass. My thoughts on this can be broken down into a few main points:

It takes little-to-no skill to play BP
The skill level it takes to win with Baton Pass is minimal. You can't sit there and tell me that it takes skill to switch into Espeon on a lead Thundurus (or sylveon because guess what: it beats Thundy without BP :O a crazy concept, I know). It takes no skill to create a 50/50. People have been throwing around the idea of "predictions" as if they mean anything. Predicting is nothing. Prediction is just glorified guesswork. Sure, there might be situational pressure for your pressure for your opponent to make one more or another, but really it comes down to being right or being wrong. Baton Pass may have to "guess" what the opponent is going to do (although I don't really think this is even true due to the nature of Baton Pass eliminating the element of double switches or anything of the sort). Predictions=/=skill and anyone who says it does is kidding themselves into thinking that they somehow develop the ability to read minds the more they play Pokemon (hint: you don't). Rather, BP is more formulaic. Switching is taken out of the equation since BP gives the team switch initiative. If opponent brings out A, send out X, if the opponent brings out B, send out Y. Some might say that this is simply an element of Pokemon in itself, but BP doesn't have nearly as much pressure as a normal team when switching around. First, it gains Defensive boosts. Second, usually these are games without hazards, and if you DO set up hazards, you give the BP team more time to boost.

While not overcentralizing, it is an outlier in the meta
Baton Pass has no counters. Everything that has been mentioned in this thread so far can be stopped by something on BP. On the rare occasions when the opponent has something that might break Baton Pass chain (note: not the team, just the singular chain), there are easy fixes. Talonflame? Zapdos. Prankster Taunt? Mental Herb is your friend. Boosting sweepers is my favorite, because clearly you people have not heard about my friend Encore. Both Mime and Smeargle can carry Encore and it completely ruins any attempt to beat BP with your own setup sweeper. Even Mega Pinsir is beaten by Focus Sash Smeargle (Spore is also your friend). Now, this might seem like an exaggeration to some, and obviously no Baton Pass team (that I've seen anyway) has counters to everything. No team does, for that matter. But BP causes an unhealthy shift in the meta. It is, by definition an outlier. People can say it's overcentrailizing, but that's not true. It's an obscure threat, sure (well, except the top of the ladder), but that's exactly the issue. I personally believe that Baton Pass is too obscure to be given a serious thought in team building. Moreover, the checks that exist to Baton Pass are also obscure. Taunt Thundy is only used for BP and Deo-S. haze Quagsire only works on stall, and even then it has better things to use its moveslots for. Trick Sableye or Klefki is complete garbage. Talonflame doesn't even check BP so idk what people are talking about here ?_? Zapdos and Vaporeon easily set up on it. These things are not normally seen in the meta (cept Talon which is not a counter at all lmfao), and I don't think that they are within a reasonable margin to call it a "meta shift."

Baton Pass is, for the most part, reliant on matchup to win
You can say that Baton Pass can lose to regular teams, and I'm sure it has. But I doubt these losses were by normal means. Perhaps a crit or a critical misplay cot the match for the BP user, but there is almost no way outside of luck that a normal team (one that fits within the margin I talked about in the last post) can handle BP. Most games with BP are decided at team preview short of hax. This is clearly shown in the SPL match with Costa. He would have won without hax, with hax, he lost. It's really as simple as that. I have played BP. I have played against BP. I have watched competent players use BP. It is, in the hands of a competent player, an entirely matchup based strategy, with very VERY few things it doesn't match up well against.

tl;dr: we already have a de facto ban on it anyway, why not make it de jure? .-.

Just to clarify, are you talking an all out ban on Baton Pass? Because I personally think QuickPass is a viable strategy that requires some skill and shouldn't be limited by nerfing all out BP teams.

If by Baton Pass you don't mean the move itself, I agree with you.

 

[wonderprince302]

I've never had a problem with Baton Pass. It's like rock paper scissors- setup beats stall, stall beats HO, and HO beats setup. Stall isn't completely vulnerable anyway, because of King Quag and a wide variety of Stall-compatible Haze users. Magic Bounce helps Espeon to deal with counters and start a BP chain, but it doesn't mean it's broken- just KO Espeon with a supereffective move before it sets up. If you can't beat Baton Pass, it's generally because you let it snowball, making the opponent a better player.

tl;dr It takes skill to be able to get and keep chains going because of all of the hard counters in the meta, and is nowhere near deserving of a ban like Swagger

 

[Srn]

All right, I've been hearing a lot of people saying that limiting the users of baton pass to 3 per team is what we should do.
However, would that even change the match up vs. stall?
In theory, as long as you have a spore smeargle for quagsire, wouldn't even 3 users of baton pass be able to totally beat the crap out of stall just like 6 users could? It's just a hypothesis, but if you were to just run Scolipede (perhaps with megahorn for darks, with iron defense) and Espeon (stored power, baton pass, sub, cm) and Smeargle (quiver, spore, baton pass, ingrain) how are you changing this crucial match up at all? It feels to me that you can just easily beat the crap out of stall, and such a respectable style doesn't deserve to drop in popularity just because only 3 pokemon are necessary to have a guaranteed win against any defensive team at all. What will stall teams be able to do against a simple core of Scolipede+Espeon+Smeargle?

While the match-ups are a LOT worse, you could even just work with 3 baton passers against offense. Keep in mind, there are 3 other pokemon to lead out with instead to make sure your matchups won't be shitty when you get the chain going.

In short, I'm against nerfing baton pass by limiting the members. I think that a complex ban of Magic Bounce+Baton Pass+Speed Boost on the same team is the way to go here.

 

[VictoryHD]

Smogon has banned plenty of things but now we are coming up to this where people are saying "its impossible to counter".... no no it is not imposible to counter it does requeire a little bit of skill and strategy to deal with BP but it can be done and and i will not support a ban of BP at all...However i do belive that magic bounce and BP is a lethal combo lets just remember that espeon is like a puppy espeon will talk big s%&t but once you land a good hit on her she goes down like a bag of rocks so if i missed any details please let me know but i dont think it is necessary to ban BP

 

[Hibiki]

Remember, nerfing "baton pass teams" to smaller "baton pass chains" to a point in which it is significantly worse but still playable archetype is acceptable, at least I would think so.

 

[VictoryHD]

Smogon has banned plenty of things but now we are coming up to this where people are saying "its impossible to counter".... no no it is not imposible to counter it does requeire a little bit of skill and strategy to deal with BP but it can be done and and i will not support a ban of BP at all...However i do belive that magic bounce and BP is a lethal combo lets just remember that espeon is like a puppy espeon will talk big s%&t but once you land a good hit on her she goes down like a bag of rocks so if i missed any details please let me know but i dont think it is necessary to ban BP

i also forgot to address ninjask and scolipede while i do see that speed boost baton pass is tough as long as you can get a poke a rock type move that can land a good hit they are both done

 

[Nysyr]

The biggest offender of baton pass is probably Stored power.

Without stored power espeon would never get around boosting special walls. Were talking OHKOing chansey here.
+4 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (320 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 658-775 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Aragorn the King]

The biggest offender of baton pass is probably Stored power.

Without stored power espeon would never get around boosting special walls. Were talking OHKOing chansey here.
+4 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (320 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 658-775 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think banning Baton Pass + Stored Power on the same moveset would be a good idea. Are there any objections?

 

[ohgeedubs]

I've never had a problem with Baton Pass. It's like rock paper scissors- setup beats stall, stall beats HO, and HO beats setup. Stall isn't completely vulnerable anyway, because of King Quag and a wide variety of Stall-compatible Haze users. Magic Bounce helps Espeon to deal with counters and start a BP chain, but it doesn't mean it's broken- just KO Espeon with a supereffective move before it sets up. If you can't beat Baton Pass, it's generally because you let it snowball, making the opponent a better player.

tl;dr It takes skill to be able to get and keep chains going because of all of the hard counters in the meta, and is nowhere near deserving of a ban like Swagger

"Just kill Espeon" - wayy easier said than done when facing a competent player with Baton Pass imo, since the only thing Espeon really cares about doing is bouncing back taunt/whirlwind/roar.

My experience against people near the top of the ladder using baton pass is that to "threaten" Espeon - to stop what it is designed to do - is not easy outside of a few prankster/hazers. The fact that Espeons generally try to build on the spdef side, and attempt to receive a +2 defense boost mean that generally you need a really strong attacker that can threaten Espeon or one with dark, bug, ghost STAB and that can simultaneously break the baton pass chain after it baton passes out. And there are very few dark, bug, or ghost type phazers, hazers or taunters that are viable. It's not really difficult to kill Espeon, but the things that it is designed to stop (taunters/phazers), can't really do anything back to it, while not being able to double out to a different mon due to switch priority.

To elaborate, because Espeon is so fast (especially with +1 speed), few things that can threaten a kill on "bulky" Espeon are able to simultaneously threaten it out and threaten to break the baton pass chain. The closest thing that fits these conditions is Gengar with taunt, but it risks a speed tie unless it's scarf or focus sash, no BP player is going to keep in an Espeon on Gengar, and after +1 spdef,spatk,speed, stored power ohkos gengar because it's so frail. Anything else that could threaten Espeon probably doesn't have phazing/taunt moves anyway, so the opponent probably won't send in Espeon anyway. Trying to wear down the pokemon on the team overall is not trivial, since the opponent gets switch priority - if you predict their Espeon and try to go for a super effective hit, generally you have to hit it with a non-STAB move, since Espeon wouldn't switch in on something that did have a super effective STAB move on it. Same argument if you predict Espeon to switch out to something else. After a few boosts, those nonSTAB moves really don't really make for a great way to "just kill Espeon." Espeon only exists to render so many taunters/phazers useless. It is amazingly effective at this as part of a full baton pass chain.

Not trying to make Espeon sound invincible in the baton pass chain, but it's not as simple as "kill Espeon with super effective attacks."

 

[VictoryHD]

I think banning Baton Pass + Stored Power on the same moveset would be a good idea. Are there any objections?

KOing espeon is tough but it is NOT impossible

"Just kill Espeon" - wayy easier said than done when facing a competent player with Baton Pass imo.

The fact that Espeon's generally try to build on the spdef side, and attempt to receive a +2 defense boost mean that generally you need a really strong attacker that can threaten Espeon or one with dark, bug, ghost STAB no matter what and can break the baton pass chain after it baton passes out - there are very few dark, bug, or ghost type phazers, hazers or taunters that are viable. This means that because Espeon is so fast (especially with +1 speed), few things that can threaten a kill on "bulky" Espeon are able to simultaneously threaten it out and threaten to break the baton pass chain. The closest thing that fits these conditions is Gengar with taunt, but it risks a speed tie unless it's scarf or focus sash, no BP player is going to keep in an Espeon on Gengar, and after +1 spdef,spatk,speed, stored power ohkos gengar because it's so frail. Anything else that could threaten Espeon probably doesn't have phazing/taunt moves anyway, so the opponent probably won't send in Espeon anyway.

Not trying to make Espeon sound invincible in the baton pass chain, but it's not as simple as "kill Espeon with super effective attacks."

again it may be easier said then done but it is NOT impossible i say we should just learn to adapt to this strategy and instead of banning it we should just talk about counters

and i dont mean think 3 pokes of the top of your head im saying actually THINK about it for an hour or so

 

[Albacore]

I think the main problem with BP is, as jpw243 pointed out, we have pretty much solved it. We have found, not the perfect BP team, but certainly the best. A BP team that isn't composed of Scoliopede, Espeon, Sylveon, Vaporeon, and 2 of either Smeargle, Zapdos, or Mr Mime is directly outclassed and therefore unviable. Sure, there are small variations, like using Scizor, but over half of the team is the same, and the extra 2 Pokemon are just there to choose what you want to have trouble with, which is a bit like choosing Fire Punch over Earthquake on bulky DD Charizard-X, in the sense that it only changes a small detail and not the actual thing. It may be reductive to compare a single Pokemon to an entire team (although a lot of people have been doing this when referring to a BP team as a giant setup sweeper), but if a Pokemon completely outclassed all setup sweepers, or all physical walls, or all wallbreakers, would it not be banned from OU for discouraging diversity?

I think we need to nerf, not Baton Pass in its entirety, but the best Baton Pass team, for the sake of the Baton Pass strategy itself( or rather, for its diversity and appeal in general). If one stall team was objectively superior to all other possible stall teams, would stall players be happy?

 

[Magnemite]

I don't think banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce even works since Absol doesn't initially have Magic Bounce, so technically Absol with Absolite and Baton Pass doesn't even violate the rule because at the start of the battle it does not have both Baton Pass and Magic Bounce. (I suppose that would still work if we also banned Absolite + Baton Pass but that's just silly)

I think banning either 2 or 3 Baton Pass users on the same team is the best way to go about this since it's actually banning the root of the problem: Baton Pass chains. Sure, banning Espeon + Scolipede or w/e would also accomplish this in practice, but Baton Pass chains, the very thing we're trying to eliminate, would still be legal, even if they were unviable. Additionally, it is the only proposed solution that is actually self-explanatory. Someone new to competitive Pokemon would have no clue why Espeon + Scolipede is banned, but just from reading "Multiple Baton Pass users on one team", they could easily tell that Baton Pass chains were deemed overpowered and therefore banned.

Also, "I don't have any trouble personally with Baton Pass", (aka the argument used by a few people on the anti-ban side of every suspect test ever) is entirely meaningless. If Kyogre were allowed in OU but only got .002% usage, it would still be broken, even if the overwhelming majority of users "didn't have any trouble with it". I personally never have had any trouble with Baton Pass teams either, mainly because I don't ladder much and have only encountered those legendary low ladder Ninjask + 5 Eeveelution BP teams. However, this is entirely irrelevant. Unless you can consistently beat good players who use BP without resorting to niche counters, it is irrelevant if you have never had trouble with BP.

 

[Rosen]

GUYSGUYSGUYS I've been testing and found what I believe to be a good Baton Pass Check, but it still doesn't help much against Magic Bounce:

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Disable
- Psyshock
- Moonblast

The only reason this works is because 99% of the time, Baton Pass teams lead with Scolipede. Gardevoir traces Speed Boost, and while Gardevoir is slower than Scolipede, after it Baton Passes, the recipient of the Baton Pass has Baton Pass disabled by... well, Disable. Unless the baton pass recipient is Espeon, of course. So it isn't perfect, but it's a start.

Also, I have yet another idea, and one that I see as being generally more solid. Possible the best one I've tried:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Imprison
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Barrier

The beauty here is that Musharna is able to bypass Magic Bounce. Imprison is not affected by Magic Bounce, and Musharna is the only pokemon capable of learning Baton Pass and Imprison. This thing right here brings Baton Pass teams to a screeching halt, and to add insult to injury, she can set up and Baton Pass herself.

Keep in mind the moveset/EVs is for the most part a placeholder, and I need to do more testing.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm still in favor of nerfing the hell out of baton pass teams. But it's a start, and both sets here deserve some recognition.

EDIT: Reading through I see Gardevoir already get mentioned. I still stand by Musharna, however.

 

[Srn]

I think banning Baton Pass + Stored Power on the same moveset would be a good idea. Are there any objections?

Yeah, sorta.
While breaking quagsire becomes pretty tough, but all you really need to do is pass to a sylveon with hyper voice and it can basically sweep with 3 boosts too.
I just don't think stored power + baton pass is enough to nerf the entire playstyle.

 

[ohgeedubs]

KOing espeon is tough but it is NOT impossible

again it may be easier said then done but it is NOT impossible i say we should just learn to adapt to this strategy and instead of banning it we should just talk about counters

and i dont mean think 3 pokes of the top of your head im saying actually THINK about it for an hour or so

I have thought about this for more than an hour. I posted yesterday. Also I have experience playing against and with baton pass at about the ~1700-1800 ELO rating range, so while I might not be the best player, I think it's fair to say I take baton pass very seriously in the sense that I know it's a real threat, and I've thought about my options throughout playing all of XY metagame.

Besides, I never said anything about adapting or not adapting to baton pass. I said that the reasons why Baton pass carries Espeon in the first place - the threats of taunt and whirlwind/roar - Espeon can usually somewhat easily get around, because few of them can carry a set that have a) enough offensive presence to simultaneously threaten Espeon out after a few boosts b) threaten to reset the baton pass chain by phazing/taunting c) maintain their viability against other playstyles. All I'm saying that the "Espeon is frail" argument is true, but misleading in the context of the baton pass chain, the metagame, and the pokemon available. Espeon is frail, but it usually doesn't matter since it only exists to prevent whirlwind/taunt after enough defensive/speed boosts. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Yeah, sorta.
While breaking quagsire becomes pretty tough, but all you really need to do is pass to a sylveon with hyper voice and it can basically sweep with 3 boosts too.
I just don't think stored power + baton pass is enough to nerf the entire playstyle.

So would you suggest using Sylveon as the sweeper and Espeon as the Calm Mind user? The problem with that is that Sylveon really can't beat Chansey, while Espeon can OHKO it. If you ban Baton Pass + Stored Power, the strategy is still hard to beat, but is subtansially easier, as walls and Unaware users will almost always prevail in the end.

 

[Rosen]

I really don't understand why people are freaking out over this. Since gen 3, there's been a sort of "gentleman's agreement" when it comes to Baton Pass: don't use it. This is something that has been going on since Smogon's inception. If you respect your opponent and want to represent your own skill in a match and not a team's effectiveness, you brought a normal team and not garbage like Baton Pass. It seems to me, a suspect of Baton Pass would just be putting into writing what has already been agreed upon for the last 4 generations: don't be a asshole and use Baton Pass. I'm glad that someone brought up Costa's match because if you look at the chat (and if you talked to SPL players afterwards), everyone was freaking out and furious with Costa for bringing the strategy. I find it hilarious (and simultaneously disgusting) that people can sit here and say that Baton Pass is a "playstyle" that requires "skill." Neither of those words should ever be used to describe Baton Pass. My thoughts on this can be broken down into a few main points:

It takes little-to-no skill to play BP
The skill level it takes to win with Baton Pass is minimal. You can't sit there and tell me that it takes skill to switch into Espeon on a lead Thundurus (or sylveon because guess what: it beats Thundy without BP :O a crazy concept, I know). It takes no skill to create a 50/50. People have been throwing around the idea of "predictions" as if they mean anything. Predicting is nothing. Prediction is just glorified guesswork. Sure, there might be situational pressure for your pressure for your opponent to make one more or another, but really it comes down to being right or being wrong. Baton Pass may have to "guess" what the opponent is going to do (although I don't really think this is even true due to the nature of Baton Pass eliminating the element of double switches or anything of the sort). Predictions=/=skill and anyone who says it does is kidding themselves into thinking that they somehow develop the ability to read minds the more they play Pokemon (hint: you don't). Rather, BP is more formulaic. Switching is taken out of the equation since BP gives the team switch initiative. If opponent brings out A, send out X, if the opponent brings out B, send out Y. Some might say that this is simply an element of Pokemon in itself, but BP doesn't have nearly as much pressure as a normal team when switching around. First, it gains Defensive boosts. Second, usually these are games without hazards, and if you DO set up hazards, you give the BP team more time to boost.

While not overcentralizing, it is an outlier in the meta
Baton Pass has no counters. Everything that has been mentioned in this thread so far can be stopped by something on BP. On the rare occasions when the opponent has something that might break Baton Pass chain (note: not the team, just the singular chain), there are easy fixes. Talonflame? Zapdos. Prankster Taunt? Mental Herb is your friend. Boosting sweepers is my favorite, because clearly you people have not heard about my friend Encore. Both Mime and Smeargle can carry Encore and it completely ruins any attempt to beat BP with your own setup sweeper. Even Mega Pinsir is beaten by Focus Sash Smeargle (Spore is also your friend). Now, this might seem like an exaggeration to some, and obviously no Baton Pass team (that I've seen anyway) has counters to everything. No team does, for that matter. But BP causes an unhealthy shift in the meta. It is, by definition an outlier. People can say it's overcentrailizing, but that's not true. It's an obscure threat, sure (well, except the top of the ladder), but that's exactly the issue. I personally believe that Baton Pass is too obscure to be given a serious thought in team building. Moreover, the checks that exist to Baton Pass are also obscure. Taunt Thundy is only used for BP and Deo-S. haze Quagsire only works on stall, and even then it has better things to use its moveslots for. Trick Sableye or Klefki is complete garbage. Talonflame doesn't even check BP so idk what people are talking about here ?_? Zapdos and Vaporeon easily set up on it. These things are not normally seen in the meta (cept Talon which is not a counter at all lmfao), and I don't think that they are within a reasonable margin to call it a "meta shift."

Baton Pass is, for the most part, reliant on matchup to win
You can say that Baton Pass can lose to regular teams, and I'm sure it has. But I doubt these losses were by normal means. Perhaps a crit or a critical misplay cot the match for the BP user, but there is almost no way outside of luck that a normal team (one that fits within the margin I talked about in the last post) can handle BP. Most games with BP are decided at team preview short of hax. This is clearly shown in the SPL match with Costa. He would have won without hax, with hax, he lost. It's really as simple as that. I have played BP. I have played against BP. I have watched competent players use BP. It is, in the hands of a competent player, an entirely matchup based strategy, with very VERY few things it doesn't match up well against.

tl;dr: we already have a de facto ban on it anyway, why not make it de jure? .-.

While I heavily agree with almost everything here, I don't think it has no counters. I just posted a Musharna set that works brilliantly with the right teammates at countering Baton Pass (ideally with something with Clear Smog), but yeah. It doesn't really have much to offer outside of solely countering Baton Pass chains.

 

[VictoryHD]

GUYSGUYSGUYS I've been testing and found what I believe to be a good Baton Pass Check, but it still doesn't help much against Magic Bounce:

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Disable
- Psyshock
- Moonblast

The only reason this works is because 99% of the time, Baton Pass teams lead with Scolipede. Gardevoir traces Speed Boost, and while Gardevoir is slower than Scolipede, after it Baton Passes, the recipient of the Baton Pass has Baton Pass disabled by... well, Disable. Unless the baton pass recipient is Espeon, of course. So it isn't perfect, but it's a start.

Also, I have yet another idea, and one that I see as being generally more solid. Possible the best one I've tried:

Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Imprison
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Barrier

The beauty here is that Musharna is able to bypass Magic Bounce. Imprison is not affected by Magic Bounce, and Musharna is the only pokemon capable of learning Baton Pass and Imprison. This thing right here brings Baton Pass teams to a screeching halt, and to add insult to injury, she can set up and Baton Pass herself.

Keep in mind the moveset/EVs is for the most part a placeholder, and I need to do more testing.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm still in favor of nerfing the hell out of baton pass teams. But it's a start, and both sets here deserve some recognition.

EDIT: Reading through I see Gardevoir already get mentioned. I still stand by Musharna, however.

A good counter to the issue i belive and definetly a good start of ideas

i also think that a good way to mess up a baton pass set is with moves that take down stats so that they will constantly be contesting with the fact that their stats are going down a few moves i can think of is charm and pangoros signature move Parting shot that can work well 2 ways

breif explanation: parting shot is a move that takes down enemy attak and special attack by 1 stage and then allows the user to switch out

their are 2 things that can happen here

1. the enemys stats are lowered and you can switch out to a counter (such as the gardevoir or musharna ideas)

2. IF the enemy has magic bounce your stats will go down but the enemy that you used it on will be the one switching out allowing you to get a little more time

all in all parting shot is nice and although if the enemy has magic bounce like i said it kind of works like a bad version of roar but it STILL WORKS!!!!

im sure their are holes like swiss cheese in this idea but please let me know what you think