OU Haxorus

[KyleOnAMission]

Not QC but I'm seeing 64 Def EVs being thrown in to ensure survival against CB Talon's Brave Bird after rocks, but the problem is that those EVs don't actually ensure survival, so the wording in the analysis is false.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Haxorus: 238-282 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In order to ensure survival, you need 156 Def EVs, and there's no reason to invest so heavily into Def.

Actually now that I think about it, 64 Def doesn't do much for you other than hoping for a low damage roll, so you might as well go with an Adamant 252 Atk/36 Def/220 Spe spread instead since that allows you to still always survive CB Talonflame at full health without rocks while giving you maximum attack power and enough speed to outspeed Jolly Mamoswine. I believe that spread could apply to both the DD and SD sets, though for the DD set an alternate Adamant 120 HP/252 Atk/136 Spe spread allows you to outspeed +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados after a boost while granting more all-around bulk:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just my two cents.

Where did you do your calcs, as the showdown damage calc is giving me this

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Haxorus: 217-256 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just noticed that the calculator is set to jolly for talonflame by default *facepalm* Looks like its not worth adding bulk in that respect, are we back closer to something like 252/252 again?

 

[Selflessly]

Current EV spread is illegal, I believe its too much defense or attack.

 

[Punchshroom]

Also, remove mentions of Mega Luke and Genesect.

 

[Martin]

just a knitpick, but you need to put a line break (ie. a gap) between OO and Checks and Counters

Also it gets Rock Slide. Would that maybe be a better way of dealing with Togekiss as well as giving SlideQuake coverage. I would suggest dashing that with Poison Jab if your team is particularly weak to Togekiss, while hitting Talonflame on the switch

 

[Colonel M]

64 Def EVs are for scenarios when Stealth Rock is not on Haxorus's side of the field.

 

[Martin]

64 Def EVs are for scenarios when Stealth Rock is not on Haxorus's side of the field.

64 def doesn't fit with the EV spread. 252+200+64=516

 

[Colonel M]

64 def doesn't fit with the EV spread. 252+200+64=516

Just deduct 8 EVs from Atk (I think I told Jaroda to this in IRC but ICBA to remember). Problem solved.

EDIT: Also gdi 4000 posts.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Just a small fix: In the set you call it Double Chop, while it's actually called Dual Chop.

 

[Jaroda]

I am aware that this analysis needs a major overhaul considering the changes to the metagame as of late. Ive been experimenting with different dragon dancing and wall breaking sets and I've been having a rough time of it honestly. Swords Dance is so hard to pull off and effectively attack without taking severe damage from switch ins or being forced out by faster threats and if you didn't you'll die from your own LO recoil. Life Orb has not been helpful. What HAS been helpful is Taunt. Putting a stop to Skarmory, Gliscor, Heatran, etc has forced many switches and helped nab dances and gives you breathing room for your Lum Berry, and even Yache Berry has been helpful at times more than Life Orb. Similarly Dragon Dance retains its usefulness even on Adamant sets moreso than Swords Dance is most circumstances. Against pure Stall, Swords Dance works, but against your average balance and HO teams the added speed from Dragon Dance means you are forced out less often. Dragon Dance + Taunt function much like Gyarados and is a good middle ground for breaking stall as well as bypassing HO teams. I think you're simply best off avoiding Fairies altogether because it requires very specific conditions like Adamant +1 LO Poison Jab to be able to OHKO Bold Clefable. Yes, Swords Dance and Poison Jab will help against Clefable and Azumarill, but Taunt has proven more useful overall. It depends on what your team needs.

And unfortunately Colonel M the 64 Df EVs as was pointed out only help against Jolly Choice Band, but not Adamant, so the spread is now a bit more suspect. I think Adamant with 220 Spd is a better spread considering the meta, still able to outpace Jolly Dragonite and the 80 tier and after a dance being as fast as Accelgor. If you max Attack then that leaves 36 EVs for a defensive stat, or you can subtract some from Attack to hit a special defensive point, but I need help deciding what that would be.

 

[Colonel M]

I actually agree with Taunt. Taunt is really cool against Skarmory now since a lot of them will run Stealth Rock / Defog so you probably don't even risk seeing Brave Bird. Taunt is also really cool because Haxorus is one of those few Dragon-types that easily sets up on Rotom-W!

This is what I would do:

Dragon Dance
########
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dual Chop
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Poison Jab / Taunt
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Lum Berry
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe

As far as the remainder EVs and "defense checkpoint" it's really hard. It depends on what you want to dodge.

- 80 Def EVs are needed to avoid a 2HKO from Skarmory STAB Brave Bird
- 44 Def EVs are needed to avoid a 2HKO from Gliscor STAB Earthquake
- Hippowdon is a no go.
- You need at least 32 HP EVs to avoid a 3HKO from Chansey Seismic Toss (no SR)

I can't think of much else. Ferrothorn is a little too dangerous with STAB Gyro Ball (Power Whip variants are a little easier to set up on) for example. I think Adamant stands as a slightly better nature but Jolly does have the perk of outspeed Adamant Mega Charizard X as well as more obnoxious power. Jolly is only good for Jolly Scarf Excadrill and Timid Scarf Rotom-W.

I think Swords Dance can be in Moves or just stay in OO. The only problem is stall is really dangerous because Unaware Clefable and Quagsire have been seeing use in it with Mega Venusaur, Eviolite Chansey, and Hippowdon. Swords Dance Haxorus can usually plow through a little easier than some Pokemon thanks to Mold Breaker completely ignoring Quagsire and Clefable and Poison Jab scoring on Clefable anyway. That is one reason I'm really skeptical about keeping Swords Dance in OO.

 

[Colonel M]

Okay this double post is important.

Pastebin of convo between PK Gaming and I

So in the tl;dr version of this conversation I, as well as PK Gaming, would like QC input on this and the analysis. Jaroda can also chime in since he has helped through the analysis with testing on the ladder.

PK_Gaming*much like how I think DD is decent on hax* <------ fixed

Seven Deadly Sins
PK Gaming
AccidentalGreed
alexwolf
dragonuser
Dice
BKC
Fuzznip
ginganinja
Jukain
Plus
ShootingStarmie
Super Mario Bro

I need your opinions and thoughts on this analysis please.

 

[Ash Borer]

Haxxy <3 (Swords Dance)
########
name: Haxxy <3 (Swords Dance)
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Poison Jab
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Life Orb
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 240 Spe / 16 HP

This is SD set that I've used on a couple of teams as a designated wall smasher. Against typical full stall it definitely does its job, Mold Breaker beats unaware, Outrage beats hippo, Poison Jab beats fairies, EQ beats most steels. Against more offensively inclined teams I would say that it is aggresively mediocre. IT pulls its weight because its not frail and its not slow but its not bulky or fast, so you can check something thats slower or not strong enough to OHKO and click that outrage button guarateeing a kill. That being said it wont ever do more than trade 1 for 1. Speed EVs are to outspeed Kyurem-B, Jolly gives a more favourable match up against offense getting the drop on +spe Kyube, Excadrill, and neutral spe Base 100s. Lum Berry is very tempting but I feel like Life ORb's power is too great to pass up.

As for Taunt I think its pretty bad. YOu need Poison Jab for Phys Def Clefable and Bulky Azumarill, EQ is too weak. The thing with Skarm is that +2 LO Adamant Outrage 2HKOs it, so if you SD on switch in and you predict WW correctly then it takes ~50% and does no damage to you, while if you predict Roost and get to +4 then its in for a world of hurt.

This is basically how you play it:

am I fighting stall? Double switch into Chansey or some crap and SD then smash
am I fighting not stall? Click Outrage mid game to break down something or get a kill and make sure my Belly jet Azu and Mawile check are in tact

 

[Jaroda]

The problem is Haxorus is either horribly effective against one type of team and a liability against others with one type of set. And with the other he loses his niche and overall potency while being usable against most teams overall. Indeed, his niche is Mold Breaker Poison Jab for Fairies. I think Taunt could be considered redundant with Lum Berry, but it's a very good idea to have one or the other in most instances to safely accrue the boosts you need. I think ultimately the set you choose depends on the rest of your team. Because you can't choose Char X if your team calls for a different Mega obviously. I think I need help thinking of better team support for him.

 

[Colonel M]

Though Poison Jab can bust through Clefable and Azumarill, Swords Dance + Taunt can also bust through other threats such as Skarmory and prevents other threats such as Gliscor from stalling Outrage with Protect. The catch is you would need something that lures and shuts down Clefable or a trapper. With Skarmory being a problem you could use Magnezone as well.

Taunt is okay as a slash IMO. After Poison Jab though.

 

[KairosKairen]

just nit piking but i recall both slaking and rampardos having a higher attack stat then haxorus.

 

[Aragorn the King]

just nit piking but i recall both slaking and rampardos having a higher attack stat then haxorus.

I think Jaroda is only talking about Dragon-types, but I agree, that should be clarified.

 

[KairosKairen]

I think Jaroda is only talking about Dragon-types, but I agree, that should be clarified.

if what you say is so. i agree with your input

 

[SpecsHaxorus]

64 Def EVs are for scenarios when Stealth Rock is not on Haxorus's side of the field.

Wait why are you using 64 defense EVs to avoid the OHKO on Talonflame's bravebird when 44 HP EVs does job just as well? I'd suggest Changing the EV spread to 44 HP/ 252 Atk/ 212 Spd Jolly Nature. You still manage to avoid the OHKO from CB talonflame (No rocks of course) and you also now speed tie positive nature base 92 speed pokemon (Looking at you Krookodile).

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 64 Def Haxorus: 238-282 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[SpecsHaxorus]

I was also wondering if Rock Slide could be used over Poison Jab since it can hit all the rock type weak pokemon in OU for super effective damage with out resorting to outrage. Poison Jab is really only for Azumarill, Sylveon, Clefable, and Togekiss. The first two are hit hard by a +1 EQ and Togekiss is hit super effectively by rock slide. Personally I'd rather let my other team mates take care of the relevant fairy types in OU than watch Haxorus fail to OHKO them with a +1 Poison Jabs. Here are some calcs to back this up.

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 344-406 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 215-254 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 282-332 (75.4 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (80.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only way I could see poison jab being worth considering is if you can get to +2 which will be very rare if that can happen against a competent player.

 

[BKC]

jolly is shit, get rid of that and everything else is fine

 

[Colonel M]

Agreed. Adamant or gtfo.

 

[Jaroda]

Total agreement there.

So my question now is slash Swords Dance with Dragon Dance or make them two separate sets? IMO, Dragon Dance with Life Orb and Taunt is a good compromise of damage and stall breaking while still being good against balance and HO. Meanwhile a Swords Dance set with Lum Berry and Poison Jab is a more potent stall breaker with Lum Berry providing breathing room for status and +2 Poison Jab to give you the edge against Fairies.

 

[Colonel M]

Two sets.

 

[Jaroda]

Massive changes made, implemented Dragon Dance and Swords Dance sets. Ready for that 3rd QC.

 

[LightningLuxray]

C&C should mention Togekiss as a counter to non-Poison Jab Haxorus, as it can do literally nothing to Togekiss besides Taunt.