CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Yoshuriken]

Of all the abilities so far that have been trying to deal with toxic, like Shed Skin, Immunity, Poison Heal, and Marvel Scale, my favorite is Marvel Scale. Immunity, Shed Skin, and Poison Heal are worse options because they undermine CAP's ability to be countered by the blobs (and Poison Heal is way overpowered.) Marvel Scale on the other hand does absolutely nothing to stop the blobs, but if someone like Aegislash or Gliscor poisons CAP it will give him a benefit that helps against much of the threat list, while certainly not overshadowing Analytic at all. That being said, I don't think this is the best option by any means. We will probably have a way to burn anyway, and I think we'd rather not be poisoned in the first place. It could make the difference between being able to survive that Shadow Ball or not, which is huge.

I also support Infiltrator like most everyone else.

On Regenerator, I have to say that's rather overpowered. I don't know if it would be OP in general, but it certainly gives Analytic a run for it's money, which is not what we want the Secondary Ability to do.

Filter doesn't seem that great to me. We already outspeed all the ground types in the threat list, and we were supposed to beat them 1v1 anyway.
Water stopping abilities don't help the concept.

 

[FireArrow]

No Competitive Ability would be a very wise decision. The only thing we could possibly get out of this is an ability that helps us with ground types, which really isn't necessary.

On magician, it doesn't really do anything else other than add a fun little niche, which isn't necessarily bad. I'm not against it, but I don't really see much point in it either.

 

[finnaggann]

DISCLAIMER:sorry if any of my comments are too critical I have a hard time judging that sort of thing I hope you will bare with me.

so I am going to state all my opinions in one block. If these seem overall to be against these abilities then it is because I am leading to a point

filter is a great ability allowing us to easily survive many attacks including garchomp's earthquake that might otherwise kill us but is arguably better than analytic.
no guard although I originally thought it was a great idea it really does outshine our main ability because of our speed.
regenerator while a good ability this does not fit our concept because our pokemon is really not going to switch in and out again enough for this to work
all abilities around getting statused are either useless: toxic boost and flare boost for not working or not helping our stats or do not complement our strategy and or pokemon: marvel scale, poison heal, shed skin, or immunity because we are built around forcing switches taking a few hits and mostly sweeping
abilities granting immunity to certain types are ineffective because we resist water and fire we already counter many electric types with our core and we have something with levitate in latias
infiltrator seems to be useful against four things and four things only: some aegislash, some gengar, some azumarill and some mawile. two of those are subtoxic which can be counterd with steel type lucario, mawile we can kill quickly with fire, and azumarill is already a threat so why care.
weak armor/rattled speed is nice... too nice. if we take a shadow ball or shadow sneak (both common on aegislash) which we can then we easily sweep an entire team and since this thing is mainly built on countering aegislash then analytic is overshadowed.
magician/stench not useful to us and seem to me like they do not match our pokemons typing and feel

white smoke/shield dust are similar to magician and stench in that hey do not do much for us but as many people have said they want a noncompetitive ability and I feel these meet that standard and match our pokemon well in terms of typing and feel. these are my current picks.

 

[hendrix96]

DISCLAIMER:sorry if any of my comments are too critical I have a hard time judging that sort of thing I hope you will bare with me.

so I am going to state all my opinions in one block. If these seem overall to be against these abilities then it is because I am leading to a point

filter is a great ability allowing us to easily survive many attacks including garchomp's earthquake that might otherwise kill us but is arguably better than analytic.
no guard although I originally thought it was a great idea it really does outshine our main ability because of our speed.
regenerator while a good ability this does not fit our concept because our pokemon is really not going to switch in and out again enough for this to work
all abilities around getting statused are either useless: toxic boost and flare boost for not working or not helping our stats or do not complement our strategy and or pokemon: marvel scale, poison heal, shed skin, or immunity because we are built around forcing switches taking a few hits and mostly sweeping
abilities granting immunity to certain types are ineffective because we resist water and fire we already counter many electric types with our core and we have something with levitate in latias
infiltrator seems to be useful against four things and four things only: some aegislash, some gengar, some azumarill and some mawile. two of those are subtoxic which can be counterd with steel type lucario, mawile we can kill quickly with fire, and azumarill is already a threat so why care.
weak armor/rattled speed is nice... too nice. if we take a shadow ball or shadow sneak (both common on aegislash) which we can then we easily sweep an entire team and since this thing is mainly built on countering aegislash then analytic is overshadowed.
magician/stench not useful to us and seem to me like they do not match our pokemons typing and feel

white smoke/shield dust are similar to magician and stench in that hey do not do much for us but as many people have said they want a noncompetitive ability and I feel these meet that standard and match our pokemon well in terms of typing and feel. these are my current picks.

white smoke would go great with my art submission because he is a shark teapot, but except for that i believe it is rather lackluster.

not all type immunity abilities are bad for the cap Dry skin is effective because the cap doesn't resist water, so this would help that and even though latias resists water you get more benefits then water immunity, even though it helps stop gyrados which loves destroying our core, it also gives you regen in the rain and because of rain hydro pump becomes more powerful and more accurate, so it is still quite relevant. But it also makes fire weaker, and it requires rain support so it's kind of a double edged sword. so gains a niche but doesn't overshadow analytic, although it doesn't really do much for the core. However it does let it be a more loose with team partners allowing to be glue for other team members.

now that you mention it Rattled could be overpowered to a unprepared team, so maybe that shouldn't considered.

 

[Albacore]

I wasn't sure whether or not to point this out, but this mistake has been mentioned twice already, so it may be a common fallacy instead of something obviously untrue : Lucario does not counter SubToxic Aegislash. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Aegislash completely walls Lucario (unless it carries Earthquake, which it probably won't). This fact has been stated many times. And Lucario's immunity to Toxic doesn't change the fact that Shadow Ball still 2HKOs it no matter what. Lucario does not counter SubToxic Aegi any more than Skarmory counters Toxic Heatran.

 

[Wobbuffet0]

Can someone tell me the point of Analytic if this new Mon outpaces aegislash. Is it supposed to force switches and get the power increase? Thick Fat can work well as a good useless ability. Magnet Pull can be used to trap aegislash and other steel types.

 

[DHR-107]

Can someone tell me the point of Analytic if this new Mon outpaces aegislash. Is it supposed to force switches and get the power increase? Thick Fat can work well as a good useless ability. Magnet Pull can be used to trap aegislash and other steel types.

Ghosts cannot be trapped at all. Can people please stop suggesting *any* trapping abilities which suggest trapping Aegislash.

Nothing that has been suggested thus far has tickled me vs Analytic. I believe NCA should be the course of action here.

 

[Cutie Caitlyn]

For Defensive Switch ins, I prefer this abilities:
Infiltrator: Infiltrator's good for sub users like Clefable, Aegislash, Gengar, and Sylveon Sub Move sets.
Weak Armor: Sacrifices Defense for Speed, good for switching out and tank some physical contact attacks. thus, +2 Speed can out speed Scarf Excadrill.
Levitate: Good for switching in for ground attacks. only be aware of Mold Breaker Earthquake Pokemons like Haxorus, Gyarados-Mega, and Excadrill. Also for Teravolt users like Kyurem-B Earth Power.
Lightning Rod: Tanks Electric attacks and gives +1 SAtk boost and removes 1 of its weakness; Electric, Rock, and Ground.
Motor Drive: Same as Lightning Rod, but instead of SAtk, it gives speed good enough to out speed a Timid 252 Spd Jolteon.
Volt Absorb: Same as the two, but gives some sustain in battle by absorbing Electric attacks.
Gooey: Good for slowing down Physical contact attacking pokes. Unlike weak armor, this is less risky and slows the opposing pokemon thus force switching.

Overall,
Weak Armor>Gooey
Motor Drive>Lightning Rod>Volt Absorb
Levitate and Infiltrator's just too unreliable at some point. Like Mold Breaker Exca, or other teams that doesn't use Substitute, Safeguard

so, Weak Armor and Motor Drive are my candidates for this Pokemon's Secondary Ability.(Motor Drive's just too weird on a Fire/Water Pokemon though.)

 

[Rugi]

A niche ability that could perhaps work for some specific teams is Hydration. I think it fits the criteria perfectly useless most of the time but pretty great when it is useful. Also I want this guy to be good on rain teams.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I wasn't sure whether or not to point this out, but this mistake has been mentioned twice already, so it may be a common fallacy instead of something obviously untrue : Lucario does not counter SubToxic Aegislash. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Aegislash completely walls Lucario (unless it carries Earthquake, which it probably won't). This fact has been stated many times. And Lucario's immunity to Toxic doesn't change the fact that Shadow Ball still 2HKOs it no matter what. Lucario does not counter SubToxic Aegi any more than Skarmory counters Toxic Heatran.

We can just switch between CAP18 and Lucario to take both moves

 

[Wayan Vistar]

Guys, please don't choose an ability that gives electric immunity. Remember, we should be threatened by Rotom-w.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Out of the abilities proposed so far, Infiltrator and Marvel Scale are my personal favorites. The former has already been talked about sufficiently, so I'd like to focus on the latter instead.

For starters, Chansey and Blissey don't care about the Defense boost because their main forms of damage, Seismic Toss and Toxic, ignore Defense. Goodra, Latias, and Latios also don't care because all three are primarily special attackers. Offensively, Excadrill can ignore it thanks to Mold Breaker, but damage from a few other physical threats is reduced.


252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 18: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marvel Scale CAP 18: 314-372 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 18: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marvel Scale CAP 18: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after toxic damage


So, Marvel Scale allows CAP 18 to better deal with some physical threats, but I think it's clearly overshadowed by Analytic, which is precisely what is called for in choosing this ability.

 

[Pipotchi]

Which pokemon does CAP18 lose the ability to beat when using infiltrator over analytic? Because depending on that list then surely infiltrator overshadows analytic, considering it allows CAP18 to fare better against additional threats which threaten the core, such as sub mega mawile as mentioned before.

 

[99_Problems]

After reading srk's second post I'm actually very in favor of Mold Breaker as a second ability. It by no means eclipses the primary ability while having some niche uses, like nailing Heatran if it switches into a fire attack aimed Aegislash. It's too bad we can't make it Turboblaze though.

 

[Mova]

I agree 100% with No Competitive Ability, because a lot of the competitive choices may overshadow Analytic, just like a lot of people have already said.

 

[Cattail Prophet]

After reading srk's second post I'm actually very in favor of Mold Breaker as a second ability. It by no means eclipses the primary ability while having some niche uses, like nailing Heatran if it switches into a fire attack aimed Aegislash. It's too bad we can't make it Turboblaze though.

I don't see much point in this, tbh. Even if it switches in on a fire attack, we beat Heatran one on one anyway, and CAP 18 gives precisely zero shits about boosting Heatran's fire attacks.

E: And just for the record, if we predict the switch, well...

252+ SpA Analytic CAP 18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 366-432 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also Heatran's Earth Power just misses a 2HKO on max hp CAP 18

 

[Pata Hikari]

Filter doesn't seem that great to me. We already outspeed all the ground types in the threat list, and we were supposed to beat them 1v1 anyway.
Water stopping abilities don't help the concept.

The point of Filter is to be able to better take non STAB coverage moves from other Pokemon, a STAB SE Hit is always going to KO Filter or not.

 

[miririri]

I don't really agree with infiltrator, since it will, most likely, overshadow analytic because with infiltrator there's no reason to move later just to get a power boost. Frankly speaking if given the choice of analytic versus infiltrator I'd very much pick infiltrator.

Marvel Scale has a nice ring to it, because most people will just go for analytic anyway and it allows a more defensive boost - making CAP18 capable of running a wall type.

Torrent or Blaze seems like a nice thing if the ability is not focused on being competitive.

What about Contrary? although this might overshadow Analytic in use because Overheat makes this ability over-powered.

 

[Full_Korbe]

I like Infiltrator. Analytic is a great ability, but it's "weak" enough to be replaced, in some occasions, by something else. Infiltrator could be this "something" else : the ability to hit through Subs is nice, but Subs aren't that common. There are Aegislash obviously, Kyurem-B who has the advantage against us (but we could try to burn him through the Sub ?), Mawile (who we want to check)... that's all I can think of. Of course, they are also things like Zapdos, but they aren't likely to use Sub.

A niche ability, able to provide support where Analytic can't but otherwise overshadowed by a yummy +30% ? Seems good to me.

Water Absorb has some interesting uses too. We are already immune to Burn (and one of the main perk of Water Absorb is to neuter the risk of being burnt), but we do want to check Azumarill, and +6 Aqua Jet hurts. It won't mess with our threat list : well, Rotom-W may not want to spam Hydro Pump, but he can always switch out with a slow Volt Switch, but it helps our core because Latias does not like being burnt by some random Scald, and our CAP lacks, for now, the ability to switch in repeatedly (only above-average bulk, full hazard damages).

Immunity is nice too. Our core is incredibly vulnerable to status, and well, with immunity to both burn and toxic, CAP 18 may sponge some random Toxic. Barely useful, though.
Same goes for Shield Dust. Of course, it's nice to be immune to random stat drops, but I don't see it being used, even for nice utility.

I definitely like Flame Body. We are bound to come in many Play Rough (Azumarill, Mawile), Iron Head (Aegislash, Mawile), Sacred Sword (Aegis) or U-Turn (Scizor) and having an hefty 30% to burn them is great (but not really reliable). We are already a burn-spreading machine, so this is not as useful as, say, on Volcarona, but it's still nice to have. Between Scald, Lava Plume and this, it could nearly be reliable.

Speaking of which, I don't think we want Levitate. It's just too great and, personally, I would not use Analytic because, well, Levitate makes team building so much easier. CAP would only have Rock / Electric weaknesses : perfect partner for a Bulky Ground (or Garchomp). But Latias ? Not so much.

 

[jas61292]

I pretty much agree with the prevailing opinions here that Infiltrator is a excellent ability choice here. The only common substitute users among individuals who we will frequently be facing are those that we will be switching into. This lets us force them out without doing anything, or force them to use some other move rather than sub in the first place. On the other hand, not much that wants to switch in on us frequently subs, meaning we gain no advantage over them with this ability.

Beyond Infiltrator, there are a few others I see that could be useful, such as Immunity, however, I think that overall, if we do not choose to go for Infiltrator, we are probably best off just going for no competitive ability. I don't think any other ability is really targeted enough to be useful, while not helping out in situations beyond what we want. There may be plenty of abilities that are harmless, but they are mostly unnecessary, and not overall helpful in the way Infiltrator is.

 

[Ranger Mike]

I like Infiltrator. Analytic is a great ability, but it's "weak" enough to be replaced, in some occasions, by something else. Infiltrator could be this "something" else : the ability to hit through Subs is nice, but Subs aren't that common. There are Aegislash obviously, Kyurem-B who has the advantage against us (but we could try to burn him through the Sub ?), Mawile (who we want to check)... that's all I can think of. Of course, they are also things like Zapdos, but they aren't likely to use Sub.

A niche ability, able to provide support where Analytic can't but otherwise overshadowed by a yummy +30% ? Seems good to me.

Water Absorb has some interesting uses too. We are already immune to Burn (and one of the main perk of Water Absorb is to neuter the risk of being burnt), but we do want to check Azumarill, and +6 Aqua Jet hurts. It won't mess with our threat list : well, Rotom-W may not want to spam Hydro Pump, but he can always switch out with a slow Volt Switch, but it helps our core because Latias does not like being burnt by some random Scald, and our CAP lacks, for now, the ability to switch in repeatedly (only above-average bulk, full hazard damages).

Immunity is nice too. Our core is incredibly vulnerable to status, and well, with immunity to both burn and toxic, CAP 18 may sponge some random Toxic. Barely useful, though.
Same goes for Shield Dust. Of course, it's nice to be immune to random stat drops, but I don't see it being used, even for nice utility.

I definitely like Flame Body. We are bound to come in many Play Rough (Azumarill, Mawile), Iron Head (Aegislash, Mawile), Sacred Sword (Aegis) or U-Turn (Scizor) and having an hefty 30% to burn them is great (but not really reliable). We are already a burn-spreading machine, so this is not as useful as, say, on Volcarona, but it's still nice to have. Between Scald, Lava Plume and this, it could nearly be reliable.

Speaking of which, I don't think we want Levitate. It's just too great and, personally, I would not use Analytic because, well, Levitate makes team building so much easier. CAP would only have Rock / Electric weaknesses : perfect partner for a Bulky Ground (or Garchomp). But Latias ? Not so much.

I agree with this for the most part but nearly every zapdos set thats not choice has sub..

 

[Torty73]

What about a not that competitive ability - you could have a ability like rattled or magician. Not much good, but decent that enough it could receive a tiny niche. I still like Infiltrator more, for the already mentioned reasons.

 

[PttP]

Since it seems there are only a few abilities that have any support or justification behind them, I'm gonna close this discussion fairly soon. If you have any final arguments to be made, now is the time to make them.

8 Hour Warning

 

[Salt]

I know there's fear of Infiltrator outclassing Analytic. Please tell me how that can be. With CAP's typing and great Special Attack stat, a ton of switches can be forced, which means the switch-in is going to get absolutely nuked unless it's Goodra or Chansey. The only truly important targets with Infiltrator are Mawile and Aegislash that run Substitute. These sets are actually good examples to compare to Infiltrator because these sets are designed to take on Pokemon that handle them normally, but lose some utility compared to standard sets. Aegislash only being able to use one attack and Mawile not being able to Swords Dance count as losses of utility. Infiltrator is in the same boat, only specializing in beating Substitute Mawile, Aegislash, and Gliscor while losing the nuclear power that Analytic provides. Though Infiltrator has useful perks, Analytic would usually be the more consistent option.

I also want to make a case for Cursed Body again. Switching into an attack and potentially disabling it could screw up a Pokemon pretty royally. Assuming it disables any attack, CAP can entirely avoid certain 2HKOs and gain good footing. For example, Choiced Azumarill is forced to switch, and Hippowdon and Gliscor cannot follow up with a 2HKO. Of course, Cursed Body doesn't work 100% of the time and is a pretty unreliable way to stop these Pokemon in practice. If there's any doubt about potentially powerful abilities like Infiltrator or Mold Breaker, then I see Cursed Body as an acceptable "worse" ability to choose.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Something additional to support Infiltrator,
Even if it isn't Sub Aegi or Sub of any kind, there is always Dual Screens from any other Screens supporter.
Magnezone and other DScreeners won't appreciate the ignorance of the screens when CAP18 attacks.

Something additional to support Marvel Scale,
Remember it is activated by any status condition bar confusion and infatuation. Blissey will have a difficult time throwing CAP18 with Seismic Toss if it inflicted a T-Wave onto CAP18. Now, while CAP18 can't be burned, Poison and Paralysis can still be viable. CAP18 can, in fact, take any Wo'W user targeting Luke and not be affected by it. This makes Marvel Scale completely viable and unable to overshadow nor undermine Analytic.