Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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The iron Kenyan laying it down. Well said, completely agree, but quoting that message would incinerate my phone.

Honestly, I look at baton pass chains like a giant, long, drawn out setup sweeper. Usually you have one or two of them on a team, but on this team there is only one, and it's the only pokemon you have to deal with. Treat it like your opponent is going to send in the most deadly setup sweeper and you know it. These pokes aren't unheard of in the meta. Your objective is to bring down that sweeper no matter what. If you let dragonite set up to much, it's over. Much like this.

Also, for the people testing baton pass counters, try mega alakazam as a lead. Trace and psychic make it beat scolipede every time, and I'm guessing it can pound the rest of the pokemon too with the right moves. I would also like to know if mega banette with some combo of snatch, destiny bond, and curse along with knock off and shadow sneak fares well. Insomnia helps as a switch into smeargle. Just ideas I'm kicking around during lunch.

EDIT: the advantage non baton users have is team adjustment. That team is pretty much set in stone, so if a good counter comes along, there's not much they can do. This is why I think it is going to pass.
 
The iron Kenyan laying it down. Well said, completely agree, but quoting that message would incinerate my phone.

Honestly, I look at baton pass chains like a giant, long, drawn out setup sweeper. Usually you have one or two of them on a team, but on this team there is only one, and it's the only pokemon you have to deal with. Treat it like your opponent is going to send in the most deadly setup sweeper and you know it. These pokes aren't unheard of in the meta. Your objective is to bring down that sweeper no matter what. If you let dragonite set up to much, it's over. Much like this.

Also, for the people testing baton pass counters, try mega alakazam as a lead. Trace and psychic make it beat scolipede every time, and I'm guessing it can pound the rest of the pokemon too with the right moves. I would also like to know if mega banette with some combo of snatch, destiny bond, and curse along with knock off and shadow sneak fares well. Insomnia helps as a switch into smeargle. Just ideas I'm kicking around during lunch.

and very good ideas my freind i have run a mega banette with full attack and shadow sneak and i could easily take out a BP team with the right moves now i wish i had the vdeo link with me though XD
 
People can't seriously be on board with banning stat-boosting moves? As has been said by Haunter already, it's not up for discussion, & it's also not the point of this thread. But if that isn't hitting the panic button, I don't know what is...

EDIT:
BATON PASS IS NOT BROKEN!!

everybody says stall is an autolose to BP if you dont have a haze quagsire or some stupid shit like that. This is NOT true. in fact, here's a replay. This is me beating Denissss, the #1 guy on the OU ladder, with my stall team. As you can see, i dont even carry haze quagsire or CM clefable or any of that shit, cuz its not necessary and BP is soooo easy to beat. Hell, only two of my pokes in that team are OU, and the rest are lower than OU, which goes to show how even shitty mons can beat BP with no problem whatsoever. And also, i am a consistent person on the top 10 of the OU ladder, so i am definitely able to pull my weight against most non BP teams as well.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110056266








jk baton pass is broken af and stupid as shit and needs to be nerfed in some sort of way ASAP.
This is excruciating to watch.
 
People can't seriously be on board with banning stat-boosting moves? As has been said by Haunter already, it's not up for discussion, & it's also not the point of this thread. But if that isn't hitting the panic button, I don't know what is...
Moves that greatly boost defense and special defense. It's not as if people wanted to ban Howl.
 
I shared my experience with facing the playstyle, now a bit of my personal biased opinion - WECAMEASROMANS - nice you didn't say that Shedinja and Haze Mantine won you that match good luck with shedinja and especially Mantine on every OU team. Now I have no choice but to run this now.

Baton Pass is a marginal strategy, I don't really care about it, but I freaking hate to see people who suck at using regular teams and use Baton Pass to ladder (with good results). I propose let's make OU a Baton Pass OU where only baton pass teams are allowed. Shitty playstyles out of the window. Id rather play early XY with Genesect and Mega Kangaskhan rather than this. Have fun BP FANS! You're just too good to beat.
 
Yes, banning espeon or scolipede or stored power or any other random shit would nerf bp. However, the goal is to nerf the broken aspect of it, not some random aspect that is only broken because of the chain! Scolipede isn't broken on it's own. Stored power isn't broken on it's own. The move baton pass isn't broken on it's own. That is why we need to limit the number of baton pass users on a team to 2 or 3, and actually stop the broken aspect of full bp chains
 
Yes, banning espeon or scolipede or stored power or any other random shit would nerf bp. However, the goal is to nerf the broken aspect of it, not some random aspect that is only broken because of the chain! Scolipede isn't broken on it's own. Stored power isn't broken on it's own. The move baton pass isn't broken on it's own. That is why we need to limit the number of baton pass users on a team to 2 or 3, and actually stop the broken aspect of full bp chains
As you said, the move Baton Pass isn't broken, Scolipede isn't broken, and Espeon w/ Stored Power isn't broken. The chain is what makes BP broken because it's like fighting against one pokemon that resists everything and has sky-high defense, Speed, and attacking power. By simply limiting the chain to 2 users we weaken the strategy, leave innocent pokemon intact, and keep shortpassing (the way BP is meant to be used) just as strong as it ever was.
 
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mr mime i do understand how you feel and i felt the same way but then i realised that perhaps putting limits on passers will be the best solution for now

i do realise that this strategy is loved by many but it is very foggy at the momment and perhaps for now we should try limiting them JUST TRY for a while and then see where it goes

i understand that the strategy is going bye bye when we do this but i think its a risk we need to take right now and hope for the best
To be completely fair I'm following this discussion mostly out of interest and do not strife for a particular result; this doesn't take away how very shocked I am to see many posters so eager to completely destroy a playstyle they simply do not like without trying out ways to bring down said playstyle's power to a manageable level, knowing very well that Smogon rarely revisits nerfs previously made, hence likely disallowing the strategy of full defensive Baton Pass for the remainder of generation VI.
 

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Let me preface this post by saying that I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with Baton Pass in the current metagame. I don't think it is broken. I don't think it even has the potential to be so without the help of individually broken Pokemon. I also certainly do not think it is uncompetitive in any sense of the word, and I do not believe that we should be banning or nerfing anything to do with it. With that said, I want to look at this from a more neutral point of view and judge what is the crux of baton pass teams that makes them even something that is up for discussion here in the first place, and, if something is to be nerfed or banned, what it should be.

Baton Pass teams are teams of many elements. While many fall easily into place with each other, almost all of them are absolutely necessary for the success of the team as a whole. Obviously the teams need ways to boost multiple stats. Most notably of these is Speed, as while at its most dangerous, boosts can be passed to something with Stored Power, letting any boost fuel offense, only speed can fuel speed, and it doesn't matter what power you have if you can't get a hit off. Now of course, not every BP team anchor necessarily has Stored Power, or is a Pokemon even remotely similar to those that do. However they still all need speed, or else they can't really sweep much, baring possessing natural speed or priority. Obviously though, other stat boosters are also important, however, the ways to get offensive and defensive boosts are highly varied, and it can be approached from dozens of angles as appropriate for the team. None of these angles are particularly special for a full BP team though. Epecially powerful boost passers are generally much more of a presence on one off BP teams, as the users of these moves (Smash Pass, for instance), are weak by OU standards themselves, and don't function as well on teams that require constant building and switching. So, when looking at the boosting side of things for BP, it is a lot harder to find any place to put fault, outside of speed.

Going back to speed for a second, not only is it by far the most important stat to boost, it is also arguably the easiest, due to the existence of Scolipede. Speed Boost simply lets you get Speed boosts for free, while meanwhile you can do whatever else you want to get set up. While I personally disagree in general with the notion that BP teams require little skill, this one element here I could concede that point on. It takes prediction and skill to make sure you are always in a good matchup for boosting, but that prediction is easier when you are faster, and when getting faster can be done in a thoughtless manner, it significantly lessens the necessity for skill in the strategy. The skill requirement is definitely still there, but it is just lowered by a huge amount.

Outside of the boosting itself, one of the most important parts of BP teams are the Pokemon that stop status moves from breaking them. Specifically this means Magic Bouncers and Soundproof mons. While Espeon is certainly a decent Pokemon in its own right, it suffers the problems of being quite frail, making predicted switch ins more difficult until you are boosted up. Even so, once in it is quite powerful, and can force a ton of switches itself. If it is all set up it will sweep, but if not, it can easily get you switch advantage with BP. But, I would argue that this is again more due to the speed boosts than anything else. It takes a lot of defensive boosts to make it able to take a lot of hits, and while it is fast, it is not unusually so. However, the advantages of Speed Boosts are definitely less pronounced here, as Espeon can be seen to be quite priority weak. As for the Soundproof mons, aka Mr. Mime, it is important to note that, outside of Baton Pass teams, it is utterly useless in OU. This does not mean BP is bad for making it viable. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite. It does however mean that it has key weaknesses that make it a non-ideal choice otherwise. Its very easy to see what said flaws are looking at it. Quick, but not especially so. OK power, but not that great. Stupidly physically frail. No really special moves. Again, its ability to block Perish Song (and choiced sound offensive moves) are the only thing making it useful. The weaknesses of this Pokemon make it rely very much on proper prediction and usage if one is to get the most out of it. I would have a very hard time believing any problem with BP stems from Mr. Mime. Again though, the ability to outspeed and thus have switch advantage after it gets in is key for making BP easier.

So with all that said, I think it is fairly obvious where I think that the only potential problem here is. Free speed boosts drastically decrease the skill level requirement needed for BP teams. If anything on BP is to be banned or nerfed, I think it has to be something regarding this. How exactly to go about this though is trickier. Complex bans suck, especially when it needs to be so specific. Speed Boosting for free is the problem, but they are only really such a problem on BP teams. Speed Boost itself is not a problem. What's more, it is not even Speed Boost on BP teams alone that does it, as I don't think anyone considers Ninjask much of a threat in the same way they think of Scolipede. Personally, I abhor the idea of banning a move on a Pokemon though. If the Pokemon is the problem, then it needs to go. So, in my opinion, if something needs to be done about Baton Pass, then we should be looking at simply banning Scolipede. I don't like it, but I like it more than other alternatives. Of course, as I said from the start, I don't think that is necessary at all, but if we want to do something, I think that is the way to go.
 
Remember when baton pass was a joke? when it was more of a troll way to sweep with a magicarp? Now they have support and require prep just like any other team. Remember when scizor was just as bad and now is even more over centralizing? I could argue all day that scizor is broken with such powerful priority, and 1 weakness, and that With a flash fire user specifically for other fire types, I am uncounterable, but no matter how many times I say BUT YOU DON'T GET TO WIN EVERY TIME IF THEY ARE GOOD PLAYERS! im wrong lm sorry that you need to use prediction and conserve correctly, nothing about baton pass warrants a ban. If you really want it banned give proof like the pro swagger ban ppl did.
 
To be completely fair I'm following this discussion mostly out of interest and do not strife for a particular result; this doesn't take away how very shocked I am to see many posters so eager to completely destroy a playstyle they simply do not like without trying out ways to bring down said playstyle's power to a manageable level, knowing very well that Smogon rarely revisits nerfs previously made, hence likely disallowing the strategy of full defensive Baton Pass for the remainder of generation VI.
Seems like the biggest vote in this thread goes to limiting to 2-3 passers per team so far, which doesn't destroy the playstyle, & it does bring said playstyle down to a manageable level (theoretically). That's why I said in the thread earlier that it seemed like the best compromise.
 
If we ban Scolipede we wouldn't be banning him off his best OU viable set which is what Smogon is known to do. Arguably, we should judge based off his Megahorn/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Swords Dance set up that allows him to sweep late game. (Trust me, it isn't ban worthy). Limiting the number of Baton Pass users (2) on a team keeps the playstyle manageable and doesn't really hurt mons that would like an honest boost. Mega Heracross enjoys Scolipede and his Sub/Attack/Speed passing. But he doesn't need Espeon's help. Most boost receiving Pokemon only need one Baton Pass partner to give them the stats they need.
 
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Seems like the biggest vote in this thread goes to limiting to 2-3 passers per team so far, which doesn't destroy the playstyle, & it does bring said playstyle down to a manageable level (theoretically). That's why I said in the thread earlier that it seemed like the best compromise.
How does it not kill it? You can't do baton pass teams without baton passers.

This is a complex ban, something I dislike, and kills the playing style, something I'd like to avoid. And despite all of this, I'd still vote yes for it, it's just not my first choice. What I don't understand is how is this a compromise?
 
Imagine how ungodly broken this would be if blaziken was allowed. Wow.

Has looking into banning speed boost plus protect or speed boost plus sub been looked at? I don't really advocate a nerf, but it seems like this would limit scolipede's free boost, making it much less of a guarantee that he gets up all those boosts. Sub could remain to leave it viable against bad players, i.e. ones that lead with slow stuff when they see scolipede, and turn it into a balanced prediction that still allows it to be taken down but yet doesn't actually tamper with the overall construction of the team.

Could they do a ban much like the illegal move combos for stiff like spikes plus encore accelgor? And just apply it to scolipede?
 
Absolutely correct in that my opponent prolly could have avoided the magnezone 6-0 and possibly even avoided losing a mon to megacham (not sure if megacham could 1v1 sylv). However, most teams are not just one mon + a sleep absorber. If magnezone takes out 2 or 3 mons as opposed to 6-0ing a BP team, that BP team is absolutely crippled and it would be a tremendous feat if the chain got restarted. For mega medicham, all I really needed was a safe sylveon swap in and I could send in cham later to hit things some more. I definitely want to hear what you say, but I also want to make clear that I am proposing mons that are capable of leading into most/all of the opponent's BP team and can come out with a kill, not necessarily 6-0 the entire team.
That's just it. It's not that Magnezone and Mega Medicham shouldn't be able to 6-0, it's that a decent Baton Pass player won't let them get a single kill in the first place. To demonstrate, I'll address your replays.

First of all, the team your opponent used was pretty strange. Where's Vaporeon? Smeargle? Zapdos? Mr. Mime? Each of these are very important members of the standard Baton Pass teams, members that have been a major part of the discussion in this thread, and none of them made an appearance on this team. In fact, Vaporeon is one of the most essential members of these teams, and your opponent lacked it. As for his exact team, Absol and Celebi are really mediocre on Baton Pass teams, and Scizor is pretty unneeded when Scolipede can pass Iron Defense boosts itself. Speaking of which, there's no real reason for him to run Swords Dance on Scizor and Scolipede. Espeon is the single greatest win condition of most Baton Pass teams (although others can certainly work), and Espeon benefits far more from having Iron Defense boosts than Swords Dance boosts. In fact, I don't see evidence of any Def-boosting moves anywhere on the team, so he's leaving out a very important element of Baton Pass teams entirely.

Now for the battles in particular, starting with the Magnezone replay. Your opponent's first move was to use Protect instead of Substitute. Why? It would have been far better to Substitute in case you used Substitute/Thunder Wave/etc. yourself (which you did). The worst that could happen was that Scolipede might get hit by a Scarf Thunderbolt or something, which is far from a OHKO and would give your opponent a huge advantage since you're now locked into an unboosted Thunderbolt and are easy setup bait for Celebi. If he had gone for Substitute first, he could have Protected the next turn and brought Sylveon in for free since Substitute would shield it from your first attack. Then he could set up a Calm Mind or two, allowing Sylveon to survive two Analytic-boosted Flash Cannons, and then go to Celebi, who completely curbstomps Magnezone at +2 SpD. Alternatively, he could have gone to Espeon, who easily tanks Thunderbolt and 2HKOs easily with Stored Power. There are also several mistakes he made throughout the match that could have turned that match around. For example, at turn 4, he would have been way better off using Calm Mind. Sylveon has a great chance of surviving an Analytic-boosted Flash Cannon at 58% health, and then he could go to Celebi or something. Magnezone should have never gotten that first kill.

Now we have the Medicham replay. First of all, if he had been running Iron Defense on Scolipede (which is the most optimal choice), this would have been a cinch. A +2 252 HP Scolipede easily survives Mega Medicham's Psycho Cut, and at +2 Def, Sylveon, Espeon, and Celebi all laugh at Mega Medicham altogether. Even without Iron Defense, he could have just stalled for a couple of turns with Substitute + Protect to gain a couple of Speed Boosts and then Baton Passed to Sylveon. Sylveon could then take Mega Medicham's Psycho Cut (and the Bullet Punch that follows), KO with Hyper Voice, and continue the chain. Celebi would have also been a solid switch, depending on the EVs he was running and what coverage moves you were running. I also have no idea why your opponent saw fit to go to Scizor there at all, seeing as how it gets destroyed by Mega Medicham's High Jump Kick.

In summary, the reason why those matches seemed so easy to you is because your opponent was using a suboptimal team and (as he freely admitted) did not have much experience using Baton Pass.

On a side note (and this isn't directed specifically at you, just at players in general), I kinda wonder just how many people have the idea that Baton Pass is easy to beat simply because they play a lot of players who don't use optimal teams or don't know how to use them. That's not to say that they never play good Baton Pass users or teams, just that they play way too many bad ones.

EDIT: On another side note, could people please stop saying things like, "People just want Baton Pass banned/nerfed because they don't like it," and statements along those lines? This is not an argument. All it is is an attempt to mischaracterize the other side in order to make it seem as though their argument is invalid and built on nothing but empty bias (in other words, it's complete ad hominem). There have been multiple arguments and reasons laid out in this thread and others about why people want it banned or nerfed. If you want to argue against those points, then fine, but stop trying to assign intentions to the other side. Saying, "You just want to nerf Baton Pass because you don't like it," is no more valid than me saying, "You just want to keep Baton Pass because you're too skill-less to use anything else."
 
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Seems like the biggest vote in this thread goes to limiting to 2-3 passers per team so far, which doesn't destroy the playstyle, & it does bring said playstyle down to a manageable level (theoretically). That's why I said in the thread earlier that it seemed like the best compromise.
That is a compromise for half of the opinion.
 

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How does it not kill it? You can't do baton pass teams without baton passers.
You can definitely make a BP team with only 2 BP users. Just boost your Speed and Attack with Scoliopede, use Espeon to block phazing, and pass all the boosts to a sweeper to clean up. The additional 3 team slots can be used to support the BP chain, just as an offensive or defensive core is supported by the 3 other Pokemon on the team. Sure, it would make it substantially more difficult then it is now and require a lot more skill, but it would still be possible. I fail to see how limiting BP users to 2 per team would kill the playstyle completely.
 
How does it not kill it? You can't do baton pass teams without baton passers.

This is a complex ban, something I dislike, and kills the playing style, something I'd like to avoid. And despite all of this, I'd still vote yes for it, it's just not my first choice. What I don't understand is how is this a compromise?
Because you can still short pass. I.E pass Scolipede's boosts and a sub to Mega Heracross so he can land a few kills. But Heracross is still eligible to be phazed out or defeated within a few turns.
 
Because you can still short pass. I.E pass Scolipede's boosts and a sub to Mega Heracross so he can land a few kills. But Heracross is still eligible to be phazed out or defeated within a few turns.
That's like saying limiting teams to only one volt turner doesn't kill volt turn. Sure you'd still be able to pivot, but you've made the team stereotype completely unviable.
 
That's like saying limiting teams to only one volt turner doesn't kill volt turn, you've made the team stereotype completely unviable
Volt turn is much more manageable then baton pass. You can stop Volt-turn with standard OU pokemon without resorting to gimmicky or inefficient setups. In addition, 2 users of Baton Pass, not merely 1. You can have a strong Volt-Turn core with just Rotom-W/Scizor or Landorus-T/Rotom-W for example.
 
I wonder if Hyperspace Hole Hoopa would bring a stop to Baton Pass, due to its bypassing Protect and hitting very hard (Scolipede, try to take that).
Of course, thinking about it at this point would be pretty much theorymonning, and Hoopa arguably won't be very viable due to Knock Off's being everywhere this gen.
Meanwhile, something needs to be done about it as it's a very powerful archetype in the current metagame.
 
It seems like the ban is unnecessary. It is FOTM and given enough time will hopefully die out because people will begin using their own creative strategies to stop it. If the other person is boosting, you are free to set up as well, use a move that hits through Subs, Perish Song, Encore, Trick, or even Psych Up in a single turn and ruin it. All strategies will be thought of as broken if you to not have an appropriate counter or choose to not think of ways to beat it. The strategy also revolves around an entire team and multiple turns of set up. It is not as easy to do as Dragon Dancing/Swords Dancing 2 turns in a row and sweeping an entire team.

If anything I would agree to limit the amount of passers on a team since the 2 pokemon alone are mediocre. They rely on the team in order to perform this strategy and that strategy has many counters that include using only 1 move.

EDIT: Also, sorry if this has been posted, but where can we see the top players and their team usage stats?
 
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Volt turn is much more manageable then baton pass. You can stop Volt-turn with standard OU pokemon without resorting to gimmicky or inefficient setups. In addition, 2 users of Baton Pass, not merely 1. You can have a strong Volt-Turn core with just Rotom-W/Scizor or Landorus-T/Rotom-W for example.
Different bans for different situations. Volt Turn's known for 2 things (sort of); cores, and pivots. Baton Pass is known for single passers and the team. By limiting the number, you're not ruining it's viability for abusers, but the playing style that takes full advantage of it is dead.

Why do people want to ban it anyway? I'm testing BP teams that don't use Scolipede and/or espeon, and it's way fun and definitely not uncompetitive.

I'm still not convinced that it's as broken as people are suggesting it is. Sure, now that it's up, I think a nerf is a good idea, but before we drew attention to it, it wasn't a problem that I couldn't ignore pretty easily. I'd like to hear more from anti banners (As long as it's no more noobs saying haze quagsire makes it irrelevant)
 
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You can definitely make a BP team with only 2 BP users. Just boost your Speed and Attack with Scoliopede, use Espeon to block phazing, and pass all the boosts to a sweeper to clean up. The additional 3 team slots can be used to support the BP chain, just as an offensive or defensive core is supported by the 3 other Pokemon on the team. Sure, it would make it substantially more difficult then it is now and require a lot more skill, but it would still be possible. I fail to see how limiting BP users to 2 per team would kill the playstyle completely.
This isn't about murdering the play style or we would have banned it
 
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