Game of Thrones [thronies rejoice! XD]

[Subject 18]

My thoughts on the premier:

- Oberyn Martell comes to King's Landing and he is not playing games. You find out really quickly that he is coming solely for revenge because of what happened to his sister, Elia, who got raped and killed in the sack of King's Landing. I was a bit disappointed with this scene because in the books, you get some really great backstory about when Tyrion was a baby, which I really think would have been a a good addition.

- Daenerys's dragons are growing quickly and you can start to see them being harder to control. I don't really know how I feel about the new Daario, I kinda liked the old one better but we'll see how that goes.

- As always the Tywin + his son scenes are as great as ever.

- The scenes with Arya and The Hound are honestly on par with Tywin + Tyrion, always full of great dialogue and always really well acted out. Arya finds Needle and kills off Polliver without Mercy. Honestly one of the best characters in the whole show.


Danmire. Yeah, I expect that as the finale as well.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Yeah Jimbo / Danmire, about 95% certainty that next week is the wedding based on the ep titles. This is going to be an absolutely killer season, eps 8, 9, and 10 are all going to be amazing.

 

[forks]

did anyone else find jaime lannister thoroughly unrecognizable after his interseasonal haircut and shave? maybe it's just that i haven't actually seen the shape of his face since season 1 but my roommate and i were both convinced (and consequently upset) he had been recast

 

[Layell]

THE BOOK READERS SEND THEIR REGARDS

 

[Jebus McAzn]

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HAHAHAHAHA FUCKIN FINALLY FUCK YOU JOFFREY

Well, now I know why it's called the Purple Wedding.

 

[X5Dragon]

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

THE BOOK READERS SEND THEIR REGARDS

nobody reads books layell

 

[theamericandream38]

I really liked the old actor for Daario as well =[ Was moderately pleased by the outcome of yesterday's episode but

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I really do not like where the blame for the assassination is going to fall, as I'm quite sure the Tyrells or maybe the Martells were behind it

 

[JimBob]

THE BOOK READERS SEND THEIR REGARDS

it's true, we wanted to tell you for so long

 

[Hipmonlee]

My theories:

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When the mug was dropped Sansa handed it to Tyrion. I cant recall anyone else handling it. And then Sansa was forced to make a hasty exit from the wedding.

She did it, the jester realised it and decided she needed to be whisked away quickly?

If she did do it, there is every chance she is gonna be dead soon. Her story arc seems like it might be pretty close to completion, and based on previous experience, expendable characters dont hang about much..

The next thing is there is no way Tywin is going to believe Tyrion killed Joffrey. So Tyrion should be safe from legal repercussions at least, what else Cersei might do you never know..

My guess is Shae (what is with the randomly pronounced aes in every damn name in this show?) is gonna be back soon and not in a good way.

I hope so, cause Shae and Joffrey were my two favourite characters..

 

[doomvendingmachine]

My theories:

Hide

When the mug was dropped Sansa handed it to Tyrion. I cant recall anyone else handling it. And then Sansa was forced to make a hasty exit from the wedding.

She did it, the jester realised it and decided she needed to be whisked away quickly?

If she did do it, there is every chance she is gonna be dead soon. Her story arc seems like it might be pretty close to completion, and based on previous experience, expendable characters dont hang about much..

The next thing is there is no way Tywin is going to believe Tyrion killed Joffrey. So Tyrion should be safe from legal repercussions at least, what else Cersei might do you never know..

My guess is Shae (what is with the randomly pronounced aes in every damn name in this show?) is gonna be back soon and not in a good way.

I hope so, cause Shae and Joffrey were my two favourite characters..

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Remember, Joffery had the pie before Tyrion handed him the wine. My bet is that the pie is what had the poison in it.

 

[theamericandream38]

Hide

Remember, Joffery had the pie before Tyrion handed him the wine. My bet is that the pie is what had the poison in it.

Hide

Yep, I thought the same thing. It will be interesting to see how this develops - how long will it be before we know the truth? Unfortunately for hip I don't expect shea to return any time soon.

 

[aVocado]

Is this a "no book spoilers" thread? I hope it is, don't want shit spoiled.

 

[Codraroll]

^I think book spoilers are fine as long as they are kept just that: spoilers. Proper tagging and such is necessary if we are to discuss stuff such as the Green Wedding or that UFO at the end of AFfC.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Well, this episode threw Jaime's character development out the window for me.

 

[Stellar]

Well, this episode threw Jaime's character development out the window for me.

Felt the same exact way. I was really disappointed.

 

[X5Dragon]

I forgot about that brain fart of a scene because of Tywin's excellent lecture about being a good king and his deal with the Drone prince. Also the ending, way to show them whose wearing the pants there my queen :)

 

[sirndpt]

just finished season 1, shall conveniently tag Stone_Cold so i can mention how the genius managed to spoil himself for ned's beheading on peter dinklage's AMA, of all places

for background: i've read most of the books, am about halfway through ADWD.

favourite characters!

lysa and sweetrobin. every. time. they. appear. i want to reach through the screen and punch them and throttle their little necks and everything is glorious

viserys impressed me a lot too - even missing so much of the hardship backstory he still manages to come across sympathetic, just on the back of of how well-done lines like "that was all I wanted... what was promised" were delivered

another one i categorically refuse to hear a bad word said against is sansa! ok well i get how she's dislikable, but i thought she was presented very sympathetically (the first ep highlighting the bleakness of her life in the north (in her dress, her hair, the colours) and later eps showing how much more she liked it/ thrives down south, also omitting her part in getting ned killed).

she's thirteen for heaven's sake! she's allowed to be whiny and a little stupid, she's allowed to have her prince charming fairytale happy ever after delusions :\

the lannisters are all perfect - cersei's presented as a lot more sympathetic (or at least complex) than i thought she'd be, tywin/tyrion and tywin/jamie have such a nice dynamic, really hoping to see more of that. unsure how i feel about this take on shae though, we'll see how that goes

also, jaime seems like a damon salvatore from TVD explant (even looks like ian somerhalder, unless i'm going crazy?) which very much amuses me.

--

least favourite:

i found tv!cat so much less sympathetic than i did book!cat! her arresting tyrion felt so much more unreasonable in the show (or was it supposed to have that feel in the book too? it's been a while) - or is it just because show!tyrion is so likeable, haha, while at that point book!tyrion was still some sort of ugly twisted little monster

drogo was also quite disappointingly undeveloped, which was pretty apparent in the entire buildup, just completely wasn't feeling any of dany's pain and sorrow etc

least favourite though has to be jon snow.

whiny as FUCK THICK SKULLED AS FUCK where do i even begin. you had to be explicitly told that the guys you—a trained highborn—were beating up were a bunch of scrubby street urchin nobodies? you had to be told that being steward to the lord commander was a tremendously great opportunity not some kind of imagined snub and plz to stop q_qing?? your superior makes a yo-papa insult and you go at him with a knife?

you are eighteen. robb is as old as you and is leading a fucking army. and people find sansa whiny and childish. no words.

also ah the complaints about the last ep (haven't watched it, still got about twenty hours to go, just going off what i've heard) remind me of the book/tv change i disliked most - dany and drogo's wedding night (book has him as surprisingly gentle and tender and etc, tv has him raping her while she cries. why was that change even made, lol?

 

[Layell]

Some interesting thoughts @sirndpt allow me to comment.

Some find book Cat a lot less sympathetic actually, this is partly due to how much we read her thoughts in the books. One key difference is how she urges Ned to go to KL in the books, when in the show she wants him to stay. The arrest is brash on both mediums.

I've always enjoyed Jon snow, and while some have given similar criticism he's had some new relationships to work with in the latest season that help tremendously. You have to give some leeway for the exposition they have to give where Jon needs to show his disappointment on the show he's not a ranger. Also consider how his family life was, Jon was a bastard who saw himself at the bottom of the family chain. Even Theon in some ways was given more respect and freedom than Jon and Theon was a glorified hostage. He wasn't able to appreciate the status he got even as a noble bastard, because like Sansa he was also sheltered a great degree.

Martin gave a good explanation on the changes to the Sept scene from books. Essentially since in the books this is the first time Jaime sees Cersei in a year it plays out much differently. The way the show left this hanging also wasn't very helpful.

 

[sirndpt]

re. jon snow: i definitely have the impression theon was treated worse than he was! i only noticed/ remember the one time cat gave him a you-mean-less-than-nothing-to-me lookaway glance, while theon was repeatedly slighted by robb ('not your House, you wouldn't understand') and maester luwin ('[osha]'s both our guest and our prisoner, lol u should know')

while they were all together, jon seemed much more tight with the rest of the stark siblings—the first scene where he hangs with robb watching bran shoot arrows (as an equal) particularly comes to mind—while theon only really becomes noticeable (and even then clearly as robb's lackey/ sidekick) after everyone else is gone.

i'll be the first to admit i'm very biased against jon snow, came *this* close to skipping all his book chapters entirely, but yeah. i did enjoy the last wall scene very much, looking forward to seeing what comes next

-

re. last episode: just to clarify, the fan anger is more because jaime's actions were inconsistent with his character development? -- rather than because it was different to the books, or simply because it was rape, plain and simple, and morally reprehensible?

jaime's actor also gave his thoughts on the scene, thought it might be worth sharing. full article here, just the quotes below, emphasis mine

nikolaj coster-waldau

“It is fucked up,” Coster-Waldau tells The Daily Beast. “It doesn’t get any darker than that, does it?”

“There’s a moment in the scene where the hand comes up and she has this face of disgust, and Jaime says, Why have the Gods made me love a hateful woman?” says Coster-Waldau. “He wants her, and wants everything to go back to the way it was. But there’s no way back.”

“To understand the psychology behind it, and why he goes as far as he does, was really difficult,” says Coster-Waldau. “To me it became, When does physical desire take over? It’s one of those things where he’s been holding it back for so long, and then out of anger he grabs her, and instinct takes over, and he lets loose. He says, I don’t care. He wants to not care. He has to connect to her, and he knows this is the most fucked up way for it to happen, but in that moment, he knows it’s all he can do. It’s an act of powerlessness.”

“It was tough to shoot, as well,” says Coster-Waldau. “There is significance in that scene, and it comes straight from the books—it’s George R.R. Martin’s mind at play. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, because I think that, for some people, it’s just going to look like rape. The intention is that it’s not just that; it’s about two people who’ve had this connection for so many years, and much of it is physical, and much of it has had to be kept secret, and this is almost the last thing left now. It’s him trying to force her back and make him whole again because of his stupid hand.”

So is it rape?
“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.”
He adds, “It’s going to be interesting what people think about it.”

also grrm's thoughts layell referred to earlier, link here & relevant parts quoted below:

grrm

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

sirndpt

rant

a lot of the fan anger is directed towards two factors: jaime's prior character development getting destroyed by this episode and the difficult-to-justify decision to make it a rape scene instead of what it was in the books

many people are citing jaime's prior actions (him describing how he was sickened by elia martell's rape during the sack of KL, him describing how if he were a woman he would rather die than be raped, him literally giving his hand to save brienne from that fate) - the show has clearly established that even the idea of rape sickens jaime to no end

so for jaime to rape cersei is not only out of character but also completely unnecessary - sure, grrm defends it as being more complex due to the way the show is shot but there is honestly no reason for there to even be ambiguity about it in the first place as it was clearly consensual (albeit aggressive) in the novels. there's no reason for it to be "yes and no", as nikolaj puts it

another attempt that i've heard to justify the changes in the show is that they're trying to make jaime a more complex character who can be despicable in a way. people are also citing other characters (the hound's actions at the barn, ygritte killing innocent people) as a reminder that many of the characters that you sympathize with are more complex and nuanced and aren't necessarily on a "path of redemption". personally, though, jaime's development last episode didn't seem to reflect that at all, instead coming off as just poor writing and an overall bad decision from the showrunners

 

[Halcyon.]

So tonight was basically justice night north of the wall.

 

[Crux]

yo fyi there is no such thing as a necessary rape scene can we not use those words together again please and thank you :)

 

[Jebus McAzn]

when does peter dinklage get his emmy

 

[Crux]

This was the best episode so far this season