Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Zethoro]

Haze Quagsire is bad because Quagsire has Unaware, so it has no reason to clear opposing stat boosts. Even if Quagsire faints, most good stall teams have Unaware Clefable as well, so Haze isn't even useful in the event that Quagsire faints. It's like running Magic Coat Espeon.

And BP needs to have one specific Pokemon to be able to counter it, because "well-built teams" that do not use a hard counter auto-lose to it.

That's a terrible example; Magic coat does nothing for espeon or its team. Quagsire does have a reason to clear stat boosts; for the rest of his team. For itself? No, you're right, Quagsire has no reason to use haze.
I get where you're coming from, and frankly having two or three "checks" (I wouldn't quite call them surefire counters as they really aren't.) that are viable in OU does not make a strategy healthy for the metagame. (Mega Lucario had plenty of counters, but he was unhealthy for the meta too since he trashed just about everything else. Same goes for Mega Gengar.)
You've convinced me; while I don't think BP deserves a full ban at all (it's a good move and interesting to use) I think the biggest issue here is Stored Power. Without stored power Espeon, while very strong, would not have the pure power it needs, as Unaware pokemon like Clefable and Quagsire could muscle through it.
I say that, if we ban anything, we ban Stored Power on Magic Bounce Espeon. Baton pass teams, while nerfed, can still function, have pokemon that can defeat it after it gets going (like any normal sweep thanks to stall and priority), but is still viable. And before anyone says it isn't:
Espeon can get past special walls with Psyshock, can crush things immune to its stab like TTar with Dazzling Gleam, and gan generally take multiple SE hits without going down. It's still viable, but more defeatable.
Of course, this is just in theory. This alone may ruin the entire thing. I don't know.

 

[vox_amoris]

Let's see. Espeon stops hazards so thats irrelevant since if you spend your time trying to do that you will just get set up on and lose. Status is irrelevant considering Baton Pass + Substitute exists. Item removal is blocked by Substitute, and if you're speaking about Knock Off, after a few boosts that isn't really breaking the Substitute either. Phazing is blocked by Magic Bounce, and Dragon Tail isn't breaking most Substitutes, especially not after defense boosts. And there's almost no viable Taunt / Encore users that are actually threats in the metagame while being able to stop Espeon. So...

I don't even know where to start here. You seem to be under the impression that simply having Espeon on your team means nobody will ever even attempt to set up hazards. It also seems that you think people should be able to beat a strategy after letting the strategy be implemented fully. As for the no viable users of a certain move argument, please stop and read some of the previous posts that detail why this claim is foolish.

 

[gsumbreon]

Let's see. Espeon stops hazards so thats irrelevant since if you spend your time trying to do that you will just get set up on and lose. Status is irrelevant considering Baton Pass + Substitute exists. Item removal is blocked by Substitute, and if you're speaking about Knock Off, after a few boosts that isn't really breaking the Substitute either. Phazing is blocked by Magic Bounce, and Dragon Tail isn't breaking most Substitutes, especially not after defense boosts. And there's almost no viable Taunt / Encore users that are actually threats in the metagame while being able to stop Espeon. So...

Except your opponent needs turns to set up. Leading anything with Trick+Scarf or Taunt and you can force them to switch around instead of passing, and you can double switch to catch them off-guard. Once you deal with Espeon, you can dismantle the rest of their team as per usual. Its just basic pressuring tactics.....

 

[Rotosect]

Holy...

The problem is not Baton Pass becoming prominent and people refusing to adapt to it.

The problem is that some team archtypes will automatically lose against a full Baton Pass type (outside of hax) team unless they incorporate something suboptimal method which significantly hampers their ability to compete against any other team.

This has been states and restated god knows how many times.

That's like saying rain teams should have been banned in Gen 5 because sun teams would auto-lose against them. Just like individual pokemon have impossible match-ups (such as Chansey vs Conkeldurr or Ferrothorn vs Heatran) so do entire playstyles. What's so bad about it?

 

[Halcyon.]

That's like saying rain teams should have been banned in Gen 5 because sun teams would auto-lose against them. Just like individual pokemon have impossible match-ups (such as Chansey vs Conkeldurr or Ferrothorn vs Heatran) so do entire playstyles. What's so bad about it?

Weather was not NEARLY on the same level of matchup as BP, and that's saying something. If you think there is nothing sun could do to beat rain then you clearly never watched/played real Gen V matches. I don't think people realize that when we say "auto-lose" we literally mean YOU HAVE NO WAY OF WINNING OUTSIDE OF CRITS. There is no situation where a good Gen V sun team would auto-lose to drizzle teams. It just wasn't that simple. With BP it IS that simple. You pack a niche counter, or you lose. That's it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

That's like saying rain teams should have been banned in Gen 5 because sun teams would auto-lose against them. Just like individual pokemon have impossible match-ups (such as Chansey vs Conkeldurr or Ferrothorn vs Heatran) so do entire playstyles. What's so bad about it?

What Halcyon. said, but the problem is that by adjusting to not auto lose to BP, teams have automatically made themselves inferior, and significantly less able to deal with teams that didn't adjust. Sure, a 5 man and a BP counter HO team CAN beat a 6 man stall team, but an inherent disadvantage is so big, that most people will probably ignore BP (because not enough people use it), and so BP will continue to get cheap, unearned wins. If this keeps happening, BP will undoubtedly grow more popular, and other playing styles will be made less viable by having to adjust for it.

The end choice is, do you want all teams to be made worse, and less diverse so one more playing style can be used, or make a little change so the meta game can go on healthy, at a small cost of a less abusable BP team?

 

[Waltz01]

That's like saying rain teams should have been banned in Gen 5 because sun teams would auto-lose against them.

Sun teams had an advantage over rain teams in Gen 5, at least for parts; saying otherwise is retarded. This is part of a bigger problem: the people who are like "no don't ban BP i use it on the ladder adapt!!!!" don't realize the type of disadvantage BP creates. In a situation where one type archetype has a clear advantage over another (lets say, sun offense vs. weatherless offense in Gen 5), the person with the advantage can work to apply pressure with their own team to neutralize the advantage. With BP it is impossible to do that: you need some random unviable counter.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Weather was not NEARLY on the same level of matchup as BP, and that's saying something. If you think there is nothing sun could do to beat rain then you clearly never watched/played real Gen V matches. I don't think people realize that when we say "auto-lose" we literally mean YOU HAVE NO WAY OF WINNING OUTSIDE OF CRITS. There is no situation where a good Gen V sun team would auto-lose to drizzle teams. It just wasn't that simple. With BP it IS that simple. You pack a niche counter, or you lose. That's it.

That's the problem with this argument though, it's just dead wrong. It's not that simple with BP, and the only reason people agree with this one argument is because they're biased and want to get rid of Baton Pass or nerf it to the point that it's not usable as a team archetype anymore. :\ Stop the auto-lose crap already.

 

[Halcyon.]

That's the problem with this argument though, it's just dead wrong. It's not that simple with BP, and the only reason people agree with this one argument is because they're biased and want to get rid of Baton Pass or nerf it to the point that it's not usable as a team archetype anymore. :\ Stop the auto-lose crap already.

You are completely wrong. I invite you to try to beat a BP team without one of these niche counters and without luck. if you have nothing to stop Scolipede getting a speed boost, Espeon or Sylveon going for Calm Mind, or Smeargle Sporing you and Quiver Passing, you lose. I'm sorry but that's it. It's not the same as other setup Pokemon If you let Mega Pinsir set up, you can still easily counter it with Rotom-W, Zapdos, Skarmory, Scarf Excadrill, Scarf Garchomp, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Raikou, Mega Manectric, and others. This number of viable stops to BP does not exist. It takes about two-three turns for BP to become unbeatable for every team, and some teams don't have a way to stop it from turn one. And before you say "yeah if you give any setup sweeper three turns, they'll sweep you too!" it's much easier to counter normal setup sweepers than it is for you to counter an entire team that revolves around switch initiative, meaning that the team can counter your counters repeatedly. So unlike sending out a Clefable to handle Dragonite, BP teams can Pass to a counter for your counter. Double switching, switches to "counters" those don't work in this scenario. It's similar to in game battles, where you get the chance to switch out your Pokemon after KOing one. BP gets that same initiative thanks to the nature of BP.

You're damn right I want BP to be unusable. It's a useless strategy that, when used, causes an over-at-team-preview match (or one where you just have to pray for a crit).

 

[Mr. Mime]

It dazzles me that people seem to assume that Baton Pass will always have everything they need: reading that Mega-Gyarados is not a viable counter because the playstyle uses Smeargle with Ingrain, that Perish Song not being a viable counter because Mr. mime has Soundproof, and that millions of other things cannot be considered counters because full Baton Pass teams incorporate Espeon, makes it seem to me that it's time for a more cynical response...

The detail that many answers full Baton Pass teams can provide for their counters require setup that they will not always have aside, what happened to this "skill" that people seem to be so fond of? So the opponent will pass to Mr. Mime when you act with Azumarill; then what stops you from smacking in that scary clown's head with Play Rough? Once again I feel that I need to point out that one cannot expect any Pokémon to defeat a Baton Pass team all by itself, and that players should not expect to find a counter that destroys the team without any thinking on their part...

 

[vox_amoris]

What Halcyon. said, but the problem is that by adjusting to not auto lose to BP, teams have automatically made themselves inferior, and significantly less able to deal with teams that didn't adjust. Sure, a 5 man and a BP counter HO team CAN beat a 6 man stall team, but an inherent disadvantage is so big, that most people will probably ignore BP (because not enough people use it), and so BP will continue to get cheap, unearned wins. If this keeps happening, BP will undoubtedly grow more popular, and other playing styles will be made less viable by having to adjust for it.

The end choice is, do you want all teams to be made worse, and less diverse so one more playing style can be used, or make a little change so the meta game can go on healthy, at a small cost of a less abusable BP team?

No team can counter every possible strategy. Making your team less susceptible to Baton Pass at the cost of (supposedly) being unable to compete against other playstyles is a choice. Teambuilding is a series of choices based on what you feel you are likely to encounter. If "not enough people use it [baton pass]" then why is it so critical you include a counter if you feel your team cannot make room for said counter? Because Baton Pass gives players "cheap, unearned wins?" Are you making an argument based on a virtual number next to someone's name that you feel is unfairly won? That isn't an argument, that's complaining.

 

[Magnemite]

No team can counter every possible strategy. Making your team less susceptible to Baton Pass at the cost of (supposedly) being unable to compete against other playstyles is a choice. Teambuilding is a series of choices based on what you feel you are likely to encounter. If "not enough people use it [baton pass]" then why is it so critical you include a counter if you feel your team cannot make room for said counter? Because Baton Pass gives players "cheap, unearned wins?" Are you making an argument based on a virtual number next to someone's name that you feel is unfairly won? That isn't an argument, that's complaining.

That is irrelevant. Against every other "playstyle", as long as you have a good team, even the most blatantly awful team matchup can be overcome by playing well. Baton Pass is the complete exception to this rule. If you're not packing a hard counter and your opponent knows what they're doing, you can't possibly beat Baton Pass no matter how well you play. Does this not seem like a problem to you?

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

No team can counter every possible strategy. Making your team less susceptible to Baton Pass at the cost of (supposedly) being unable to compete against other playstyles is a choice. Teambuilding is a series of choices based on what you feel you are likely to encounter. If "not enough people use it [baton pass]" then why is it so critical you include a counter if you feel your team cannot make room for said counter? Because Baton Pass gives players "cheap, unearned wins?" Are you making an argument based on a virtual number next to someone's name that you feel is unfairly won? That isn't an argument, that's complaining.

Have you not been paying attention? If you don't include a check for BP, you lose most of the time, if you do, you'll lose most of the time to normal teams that don't (assuming your opponent is at about the same skill level as you and doesn't make a major mistake). This is turning pokemon into a game of rock paper scissors, which is fine if you're in kindergarten, but we're not.

 

[TrippingRocks]

That's the problem with this argument though, it's just dead wrong. It's not that simple with BP, and the only reason people agree with this one argument is because they're biased and want to get rid of Baton Pass or nerf it to the point that it's not usable as a team archetype anymore. :\ Stop the auto-lose crap already.

It is kinda simple. Most things can't stop a Scolipede from getting a few speed boosts. Only way to stop it is with priority, setting up yourself, or haze. Haze is rarely seen in OU. Priority is fairly common, but it needs to be strong enough to OHKO a Scolipede (like CB Talonflame) or stop the set-up dead in it's tracks like taunt Thundurus-I. Other priority users like CB Scizor and CB Azumarill simply don't hit hard enough to prevent Scolipede from BPing out to someone who can deal with them.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 118-141 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

More over, Scolipede can hold either Focus Sash (which guarentees him to survive one hit from Talonflame and allow him to pass the speed boost to someone who resists Talonflame) or a mental herb (to prevent Thundurus-I and his taunt from stopping him).

If you do not immediately lead with Thundurus-I/Talonflame/some-other-pokemon that can deal with BP teams, that gives the BP team a free turn to continue their set-up. As the chain gets longer and longer, it becomes increasingly difficult to win against a BP team. Teams lacking strong priority, a set-up sweeper, or haze are pretty much instantly screwed. There's soo many pokemon that just can't do crap against BP teams. Scolipede has an easy time against most things to be able to speed boost and BP to his team. Once he's at +2 speed, pretty much nothing but priority is going to outspeed that and his team will have the luxury of almost always going first. This allows the BP team to Baton Pass out when the match-up isn't looking favorable or to set-up in a pokemon's face and take the hit only after they're at +2.

 

[sidakarya]

It dazzles me that people seem to assume that Baton Pass will always have everything they need: reading that Mega-Gyarados is not a viable counter because the playstyle uses Smeargle with Ingrain, that Perish Song not being a viable counter because Mr. mime has Soundproof, and that millions of other things cannot be considered counters because full Baton Pass teams incorporate Espeon, makes it seem to me that it's time for a more cynical response...

The detail that many answers full Baton Pass teams can provide for their counters require setup that they will not always have aside, what happened to this "skill" that people seem to be so fond of? So the opponent will pass to Mr. Mime when you act with Azumarill; then what stops you from smacking in that scary clown's head with Play Rough? Once again I feel that I need to point out that one cannot expect any Pokémon to defeat a Baton Pass team all by itself, and that players should not expect to find a counter that destroys the team without any thinking on their part...

You can say whatever about baton pass teams "not having everything" (which they at this point pretty much do), but you could say the same about 4-moveslot-syndrome and anything from the Ubers list. Like Kangaskhan having to choose between Fire Punch and Crunch. In practice, those choices are if anything just a bonus, we all knew, the main draw was becoming a juggernaut with easy +2 Atk. Not having everything didn't make it not broken.

Baton Pass teams are like a M-Kangaskhan made of six Pokémon. I've mentioned, how Baton Pass teams always have the switch initiative, meaning all the momentum is theirs. Meaning any semblance of prediction, as you would have in a normal match, is gone, and any counter will be immediately met by a counter-counter. Like a Volt-turn team, that cannot be blocked and roundabouts insane boosts to all stats, making any sort of potential counter a non-counter. In practice, they actually do have everything, to win the majority of the time. The Zapdos/Smeargle/Mime are if anything but an afterthought, just as Fire Punch and Crunch were in a M-Kang. And the majority of the time, you don't auto-win, it's because of some obscure thing, that you would never otherwise think of carrying, like uh... Sableye...

And why on earth would anyone pass to Mime by an Azumarill switch? Instead of, you know, going to Vaporeon and getting easy +4's in Defence.

 

[Aqqq]

You are completely wrong. I invite you to try to beat a BP team without one of these niche counters and without luck. if you have nothing to stop Scolipede getting a speed boost, Espeon or Sylveon going for Calm Mind, or Smeargle Sporing you and Quiver Passing, you lose. I'm sorry but that's it. It's not the same as other setup Pokemon If you let Mega Pinsir set up, you can still easily counter it with Rotom-W, Zapdos, Skarmory, Scarf Excadrill, Scarf Garchomp, Landorus-T, Thundurus, Raikou, Mega Manectric, and others. This number of viable stops to BP does not exist. It takes about two-three turns for BP to become unbeatable for every team, and some teams don't have a way to stop it from turn one. And before you say "yeah if you give any setup sweeper three turns, they'll sweep you too!" it's much easier to counter normal setup sweepers than it is for you to counter an entire team that revolves around switch initiative, meaning that the team can counter your counters repeatedly. So unlike sending out a Clefable to handle Dragonite, BP teams can Pass to a counter for your counter. Double switching, switches to "counters" those don't work in this scenario. It's similar to in game battles, where you get the chance to switch out your Pokemon after KOing one. BP gets that same initiative thanks to the nature of BP.

You're damn right I want BP to be unusable. It's a useless strategy that, when used, causes an over-at-team-preview match (or one where you just have to pray for a crit).

You've presented an argument that BP is problematic to the metagame in its current optimized form (with Scolipede and Espeon and the other standards), but that hardly justifies wanting to make BP entirely unusable. Would it still be problematic if (say) Espeon and/or Scolipede were banned from BP teams? Kairyu says he has done some testing with such nerfed BP teams and found them to be considerably less broken. I don't know whether he's right, but I do think he has the right idea: the right way to answer this question is for good players to try to build the best BP team they can without using Scolipede (or without using Espeon, or without using anything with Speed Boost, etc) and see both whether it is viable and whether it is reasonably possible for standard teams to beat it. Maybe the nature of BP chains is inherently such that they will either be too weak to be viable or they will be too strong to be healthy for the metagme, but maybe there is a relatively simple ban that can achieve a balanced middle ground. Kairyu claims to have found that middle ground (in the form of banning Scolipede from BP teams); I would like to encourage others to further test this claim.

 

[vox_amoris]

That is irrelevant Against every other "playstyle", as long as you have a good team, even the most blatantly awful team matchup can be overcome by playing well. Baton Pass is the complete exception to this rule. If you're not packing a hard counter and your opponent knows what they're doing, you can't possibly beat Baton Pass no matter how well you play. Does this not seem like a problem to you?

You are trying to state that player skill is supposed to win the game regardless of team matchup. Pokemon is way too luck based to validate that argument. "I could've won that matchup because I'm better than my opponent.... I just missed Stone Edge or Draco Meteor or whatever." There is a skill gap, quite a large one actually, in competitive Pokemon. And that is a good thing. But it is not an entirely skill dependent game. In the VGC environment, the best players no doubt find it irritating to lose to something like Minimize Drifblim. But do they go around calling for it to be banned? No, they try to create a strategy for dealing with it. Or they accept that it is not a common strategy and ignore it when preparing a team. Because again, no team can counter every other team, regardless of player skill. Nobody wins 100% of the time, not even Baton Pass users.

As to answer your question, no, it doesn't seem a problem to me. Why? Because at the end of the day, if I play a team I can't beat, regardless of how "cheap" it seems, I simply move on to the next game. I realize that this sentiment is just going to be laughed by some people on this forum, so I post it reluctantly. I enjoy playing Pokemon and although I play to win, I am okay with losing, even if I know that someone beat me with a so called easy strategy.

 

[Mr. Mime]

And why on earth would anyone pass to Mime by an Azumarill switch? Instead of, you know, going to Vaporeon and getting easy +4's in Defence.

I agree with you that Baton Pass has become a solid strategy to say the least and I explained my standing on the issue of nerfing it in previous posts; I'll use this one to explain why one would switch to Mr. Mime when up against Azumarill: for my post I assumed that people would adapt to full defensive Baton Pass being a real threat, and that Azumarill would be the most obvious Pokémon to teach Perish Song to stop the team cold. My point was that instead of complaining that Baton Pass has their counters to everything, players must try to remain aware of the switches they force, hitting Mr. Mime hard when it has to switch in on Perish Song, and hitting Espeon hard when it has to switch in on Taunt and the likes.

I should probably add that my post was not directed at those who bring up valid points on why full Baton Pass teams can be considered problematic, but at the several thoughtless posts I read that imply that a Baton Pass team would stop any possible counter to their strategy with ease.

 

[ohgeedubs]

No team can counter every possible strategy. Making your team less susceptible to Baton Pass at the cost of (supposedly) being unable to compete against other playstyles is a choice. Teambuilding is a series of choices based on what you feel you are likely to encounter. If "not enough people use it [baton pass]" then why is it so critical you include a counter if you feel your team cannot make room for said counter? Because Baton Pass gives players "cheap, unearned wins?" Are you making an argument based on a virtual number next to someone's name that you feel is unfairly won? That isn't an argument, that's complaining.

Making your team be less susceptible to baton pass is a choice. It's a choice to be packing Thundurus-I on every team because you don't care about some variety. It's a choice to never be able to try Pokemon that may vary in usefulness against other team archetypes, but are worthless versus baton pass (see Skarmory/Blissey) (and I mean worthless - you can't use it to lure out stuff, and you can't use it as death fodder). It's a choice to use otherwise unviable Pokemon despite having a worse matchup against playstyles you might actually enjoy playing against - playstyles I believe foster critical thinking, skill, metagame knowledge, and the ever fun predictions. Or it's a choice to use baton pass yourself, even though using a baton pass team versus another baton pass team is one of the most 50/50, crit-dependent, lead-dependent matches you can watch (with no team variety).

But wanting to see it gone is also a choice - a choice based on the baton pass teams I feel likely to encounter: teams which force my hand, and force me into those choices I mentioned before.

Community decisions about how to make a game balanced or fun or whatever is always a choice, so complaining is a huge part of it. The community does care about "earned wins," and the ability to make those choices I mentioned, so if people complain about "unearned wins," it's an argument to appeal to something the community cares about so they can choose to get rid of it.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

So the argument for ban is that Baton Pass teams beat some teams 100% of the time (decided at match up). Please list these teams, or playstyles, and lets see if anyone can find a way to beat Baton Pass with it.

Can we all agree this is a logically way to go about addressing this issue? If it's proven that a stall team can never beat a Baton Pass team, then yeah its broken. But, I would be willing to bet this isn't the case. come suspect testing we will see that stall teams can easily implement a hazer and keep him healthy all game.

Likewise, Volt-Turn can continue to break subs until they can finish something off with powerful priority.

Hyper offensive is already known to beat Baton Pass fairly well.

What about the less common Trick Room or Weather teams. Do we consider these?

 

[sidakarya]

I agree with you that Baton Pass has become a solid strategy to say the least and I explained my standing on the issue of nerfing it in previous posts; I'll use this one to explain why one would switch to Mr. Mime when up against Azumarill: for my post I assumed that people would adapt to full defensive Baton Pass being a real threat, and that Azumarill would be the most obvious Pokémon to teach Perish Song to stop the team cold. My point was that instead of complaining that Baton Pass has their counters to everything, players must try to remain aware of the switches they force, hitting Mr. Mime hard when it has to switch in on Perish Song, and hitting Espeon hard when it has to switch in on Taunt and the likes.

I should probably add that my post was not directed at those who bring up valid points on why full Baton Pass teams can be considered problematic, but at the several thoughtless posts I read that imply that a Baton Pass team would stop any possible counter to their strategy with ease.

And why would you teach Azumarill Perish Song in the first place? That's a moveslot fullsunk just as an improvised stop to bp chains. It's exactly the kind of "niche, overspecialised emergency check", that I was speaking of.

Of course, not even a baton pass team can 100% win against absolutely anything - the problem is, what does win against baton pass, is most of the time crippled against any other team. Having to constantly use otherwise non-viable things like Murkrow, Roar M-Garados, Ghost Curse, Haze on a statboost-ignoring Pokémon, that can you not by any reason call a healthy development in the metagame. It's like putting Rocky Helmet and/or Sableye on absolutely everything for a Kang, it just doesn't go.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Why does haze need stat ignoring? Just sit in at the start and spam it. Recover or Roost if they attack you...

Haze is very viable. Crobat is an excellent user without needing any real team support. works well against many things. I hope it gets more use in OU due to Baton Pass.

 

[Mr. Mime]

And why would you teach Azumarill Perish Song in the first place? That's a moveslot fullsunk just as an improvised stop to bp chains. It's exactly the kind of "niche, overspecialised emergency check", that I was speaking of.

Yes it is, and just as you explained in your other post directed at me, Azumarill used its fourth moveslot to hit an opponent that would otherwise be a threat. Please let's not discuss the quality of my example, for it is of no importance for this discussion - I daresay that it's not even relevant for the argument I made.

 

[Arcticblast]

You are trying to state that player skill is supposed to win the game regardless of team matchup. Pokemon is way too luck based to validate that argument. "I could've won that matchup because I'm better than my opponent.... I just missed Stone Edge or Draco Meteor or whatever." There is a skill gap, quite a large one actually, in competitive Pokemon. And that is a good thing. But it is not an entirely skill dependent game. In the VGC environment, the best players no doubt find it irritating to lose to something like Minimize Drifblim. But do they go around calling for it to be banned? No, they try to create a strategy for dealing with it. Or they accept that it is not a common strategy and ignore it when preparing a team. Because again, no team can counter every other team, regardless of player skill. Nobody wins 100% of the time, not even Baton Pass users.

As to answer your question, no, it doesn't seem a problem to me. Why? Because at the end of the day, if I play a team I can't beat, regardless of how "cheap" it seems, I simply move on to the next game. I realize that this sentiment is just going to be laughed by some people on this forum, so I post it reluctantly. I enjoy playing Pokemon and although I play to win, I am okay with losing, even if I know that someone beat me with a so called easy strategy.

Regarding Drifblim: Unaware and perfect accuracy moves are ass in VGC; the most common answer to Drifblim or any other Evasion booster is Taunt or timestalling. Yes, timestalling is very common against anything boosting Evasion on cart.

 

[haunter]

Let's avoid off-topic discussions, please. VGC and its playerbase are completely irrelevant here.