Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Rotosect]

A potential check that is viable in OU hasn't been mentioned is Swords Dance+Sacred Sword Terrakion.
Sacred Sword ignores the opponent's defense boosts, meaning it can use Vaporeon and Scolipede as setup bait and proceed to sweep the entire opposing team if you play your card rights.
Unlike Aegislash, Terrakion is fast and doesn't have to worry about murdering its defensive stat whenever it attacks.
A +2 Sacred Sword can do this kind of damage:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 187-220 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 374-441 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The best answer BP teams can carry is Sylveon, who is OHKO'd by a +2 Stone Edge even if it runs max physical bulk:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zapdos and Scolipede are also OHKO'd by Stone Edge even without boosts. That leaves Smeargle, who needs its sash broken first, but honestly Smeargle is the easiest BP member to deal with anyways.

In fact, I think this set:

Terrakion @ Life Orb
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Sp
Jolly nature
-Swords Dance
-Agility
-Sacred Sword
-Stone Edge

Can single-handedly run through the entire team, provided Sleep Clause has taken effect.
Last time I checked double dance Terrakion was very viable, so the question here is: would switching Close Combat for Sacred Sword for the sake of countering BP teams make Terrakion unviable in OU?

 

[Subject 18]

First off, Terrakion doesn't get Agility. Secondly, was that set tested at all?

Can we stop posting random "counters" like the mighty Imprison Musharna without actually testing them and making sure they are effective and aren't completely deadweight against non-baton pass teams AND they actually work vs Baton Pass team? Honestly every person can theorymon ways to beat BP but do they actually work? Otherwise it isn't adding anything to this thread besides cluttering with pointless posts.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

First off, Terrakion doesn't get Agility. Secondly, was that set tested at all?

Your ridiculous, a single mistype for Rock Polish and he is completely dismissed...

 

[Slens]

What if you limit how many buffs you can Baton Pass?

Say you are only allowed to BP three buffs (this would also include things such as Substitute, Ingrain, etc.) at once. Scolipede can still BP Speed and Substitute but if it passes to Espeon, she can still use Calm Mind but it can no longer BP because it now has four buffs up. It would have to wait until its Sub is broken to Baton Pass.

BP teams can no longer rely on numerous buffs and hide behind an impossible to break Sub because they are at max Def/Sp Def from CM and Iron Defense boosts. This would lessen the pressure on non-BP teams. Essentially, once a BP poke has four buffs up, no more Baton Passing unless it goes back down to three buffs or less.

This would eliminate the long chains of Baton Passing Iron Defense/CM/Sub/Speed and whatnot and focuses BP users to see which buffs they prefer to pass on the most. Another thing I find problematic is that BP users essentially all have the same exact team save for one slot. With this, BP users are forced to be creative with their team instead of BPing every buff to death until Espeon can spam Stored Power or whatever else BP teams do.

No "Pokemon"+BP or "Ability"+BP gets banned or Baton Pass itself for that matter, you just can no longer have those ridiculous chains going on. BP teams would still be viable because all the tools are still there to use, they just have to prioritize which buffs they want to use the most and pass on.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Your ridiculous, a single mistype for Rock Polish and he is completely dismissed...

you completely missed the point, he wants people to stop theorymoning junk and start showing results. Show some replays, and we'll stop rolling our eyes every time you guys post

 

[sidakarya]

What if you limit how many buffs you can Baton Pass?

Say you are only allowed to BP three buffs (this would also include things such as Substitute, Ingrain, etc.) at once. Scolipede can still BP Speed and Substitute but if it passes to Espeon, she can still use Calm Mind but it can no longer BP because it now has four buffs up. It would have to wait until its Sub is broken to Baton Pass.

That actually is tampering with game mechanics, which won't happen unless as an absolute last resort (sleep clause)

Though limiting the number of baton passers is very doable and probably the simplest and most elegant solution.

 

[Red Cat]

Those who say that the metagame will adapt to full Baton Pass teams should provide some concrete examples of how this is supposed to happen. Do you believe that every team will start running Haze Quagsire (and lol Murkrow)? Do you think Imprison Musharna is actually viable? Please elaborate. Saying that the metagame will adapt to Baton Pass means absolutely nothing if you're not explaining how that's going to happen.

Also, it should be noted that forcing the metagame to adapt to a given strategy/Pokémon is acceptable only until a certain degree. We could unban Kyogre and force the metagame to adapt to it by runnning subpar Pokémon like Ludiclolo, Parasect and Gastrodon. Does this mean that we should unban Kyogre? If adapting to a certain threat means being forced to run obscure/niche Pokémon, then that's a clue that that given threat is probably unhealthy for the metagame.

If you really think that adapting to Baton Pass is possible without having to completely twist a team, then please explain how.

EDIT: references to Quagsire/Musharna were merely illustrative.

I posted a number of non-gimmick counters to Baton Pass a while back, but I'll restate them just in case they got lost in the shuffle:

Nasty Plot Thundurus-I
Mega Pinsir
Manaphy
Belly Drum Azumarill
Landorus-I
Talonflame
Mega Gardevoir

If people used these options more often, then the metagame could "adapt" to Baton Pass. If this list seems too small, then a soft nerf such as limiting the number of Baton Passers to 4 could be a compromise solution to increase the number of Pokemon which can counter Baton Pass. Any ban which could be implemented should at least keep Baton Pass viable enough so that people have to actually take Baton Pass teams into consideration when team-building instead of completely ignoring them, and I am sure many players who are arguing for strong bans do not want to put much effort into team-building for Baton Pass teams.

 

[Srn]

So the argument for ban is that Baton Pass teams beat some teams 100% of the time (decided at match up). Please list these teams, or playstyles, and lets see if anyone can find a way to beat Baton Pass with it.

Can we all agree this is a logically way to go about addressing this issue? If it's proven that a stall team can never beat a Baton Pass team, then yeah its broken. But, I would be willing to bet this isn't the case. come suspect testing we will see that stall teams can easily implement a hazer and keep him healthy all game.

Likewise, Volt-Turn can continue to break subs until they can finish something off with powerful priority.

Hyper offensive is already known to beat Baton Pass fairly well.

What about the less common Trick Room or Weather teams. Do we consider these?

You ask for replays that of teams getting beat up by baton pass. Well, there are over 10 valid replays scattered throughout this forum in which both sides are reasonably skilled.

Meanwhile, you claim that Volt-turn, HO, and Stall all have ways to beat Baton pass without compromising their overall viability against actual teams, and ironically enough, YOU haven't provided any replays (or any proof at all) to support these claims.

And about TR/Weather teams
1. TR sorta sucks in this meta. Doubles is the only metagame in which TR is a valid threat (RU beta is a maybe, but it hasn't developed yet, so I'm not counting it as a tier)
2. We have already agreed that the first few turns are the ones in which the match is usually decided vs. Baton Pass, so why the hell are you wasting those precious turns using moves like TR or Rain Dance instead of just attacking??

Your ridiculous, a single mistype for Rock Polish and he is completely dismissed...

That's not the point. The point is that people have got to stop coming up with obscure counters that don't fit into the metagame.
If you keep insisting that these counters are legit and don't hold back the quality of a good team at all, then show us. We may stop rolling our eyes every time you post if we actually see some proof and not some useless theorymonning.

 

[haunter]

Red Cat: more often? I really hope you're kidding... Those Pokémon are definitely used enough at the top of the ladder (barring maybe Manaphy) yet they can't consistently beat Baton Pass. Thundurus needs Taunt along with Nasty Plot in order to beat lead Smeargle (assuming it doesn't carry Magic Coat) and all the others lose to it.

 

[Red Cat]

Red Cat: more often? I really hope you're kidding... Those Pokémon are definitely used enough at the top of the ladder (barring maybe Manaphy) yet they can't consistently beat Baton Pass. Thundurus needs Taunt along with Nasty Plot in order to beat lead Smeargle (assuming it doesn't carry Magic Coat) and all the others lose to it.

Some of the things I listed are counters depending on how the Baton Pass user and the other player plays, but prediction is part of the game, so technically they can beat Baton Pass. If they are not surefire counters in your mind, then I was suggesting that limiting the number of users to 4 would eliminate Smeargle and Zapdos which would increase the number of Pokémon which can reliably beat Baton Pass teams. I think that people who want to limit it to 2 or 3 Baton Pass users just want to get rid of Baton Pass teams altogether instead of just nerfing them.

 

[Minority]

I'm not very experienced with OU, however I have fought many chain BP teams in XY Ubers so maybe some of this knowledge is still useful in this tier. The only way to beat a chain BP team is to pressure it immediately, with either Taunt, Priority, or Prankster status. This is disadvantageous as it means that only a select few leads can effectively provide this pressure, and many teams do not have access to such pressure in their lead (this harms the meta if all teams now need to be centered around checking BP). To make this worse, Magic Bounce users can move in on these leads causing them to cripple themselves, releasing all the pressure that is placed on the BP team. This leaves strong priority as the only reliable check which if I'm not mistaken is much less available in OU than it is in Ubers (we have stuff like Mega Kanga, Arceus, Ray, and Gira to not let that shit happen).

Fake Out appears to be one of the best ways to stop chain BP before it begins, as with a broken sash and no move, frail mons like Scoli and Smeargle will not be able to set up and BP away. Another reason why I think chain BP doesn't really work in Ubers is because typical BP team mons like Espeon cannot hold up in such a hostile environment, thereby making it much harder to block phazing and Taunt as it appears to be in OU.

I recently brought down a Ubers chain BP team with something as simple as a Shedinja (yes sheddy is basically impossible to actually use competitively in both Ubers and OU, but this replay demonstrates how easy it can actually be to beat a chain BP team as it's so centralized). I will mention however that chain BP in Ubers may actually be worse since evasion is still legal there making it an even greater luck > skill strategy, even though it appears to be more threatening in OU.

As far as how this threat can be fixed it's a conundrum. You want to restrict play as little as possible while still keeping the ban very simple, or basically, want to leave players still able to use BP or mons like Scoli as part of a strategy without making a ban so complicated that new users don't understand it. The previously mentioned "limit the number of boosts" that can be passed seems kind of interesting, but I don't have enough knowledge of OU to endorse such a plan/ban. As far as Ubers BP goes, it will be dead assuming evasion ever gets eliminated because of the sheer number of priority users + nukes + status.

Here is the replay for those interested, and yes it is an Ubers match:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-108671992

 

[haunter]

Red Cat, the problem is not that those Pokémon are not surefire counters in my mind, it's that those Pokémon are not surefire counters at all. That's the main reason why this thread exists. I'm starting to seriously agree with those who suggest a cap on the Baton Pass users. Looks like the best long term solution to the problem and doesn't completely eliminate Baton Pass as a team archetype.

 

[Albacore]

I think that people who want to limit it to 2 or 3 Baton Pass users just want to get rid of Baton Pass teams altogether instead of just nerfing them.

Thing is, you can make a BP team with only 3 BP users. I've made one, and it works pretty well, although I do have trouble deciding on what I want to not be part of the chain. But really, in 95% of matches, the 2 non-chain members don't matter. I can usually easily boost up and pass those boosts to Victini or Mega-Gardevoir to cleanly sweep from there (I've tried both, and although Mega-Gardevoir may seem better, I actually prefer Victini due to its Chansey-trolling subs and Leftovers recovery mitigating damage from stray Leech Seeds I sometimes get hit by.)
As for BP teams with 2 users, I'm not sure, but I think you can manage to make a petty decent team with Scoliopede, Espeon, and a receiver, although you do miss out on a lot of useful bulk.

I'm currently on the fence as whether we should limit BP to 3 users or 2, since the BP team I mentioned tends to always lose to the same stuff (Talonflame, Pinsir, Volcarona, Charizard... pretty much all the 4x Rock-weak Pokemon in OU actually), and is therefore pretty matchup-based, and wins very easily against stal,l but it's definitely a lot easier to break.

Come think of it, can common Stall teams beat BP teams with 3 users, or even 2 users, at all? Because, if not, limiting BP users may not actually remove the problem of auto-winning against Stall.

 

[biggy330]

Red Cat, the problem is not that those Pokémon are not surefire counters in my mind, it's that those Pokémon are not surefire counters at all. That's the main reason why this thread exists. I'm starting to seriously agree with those who suggest a cap on the Baton Pass users. Looks like the best long term solution to the problem and doesn't completely eliminate Baton Pass as a team archetype.

Why do you need a surefire counter to a team? Where is the surefire counter to beat a standard deosharp team? in a game that requires prediction above all else, there can never be a flawless counter, especially when the enemy can prepare for you. Just keep in mind what we nerfed with the last complex ban.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Why do you need a surefire counter to a team? Where is the surefire counter to beat a standard deosharp team? in a game that requires prediction above all else, there can never be a flawless counter, especially when the enemy can prepare for you. Just keep in mind what we nerfed with the last complex ban.

the sure fire counter is called rapid spin

edit: I know that's not giving deosharp nearly enough credit, and ignoring Aegislash, but seriously, who didn't think that right off the bat?

 

[rachet67]

Why do you need a surefire counter to a team? Where is the surefire counter to beat a standard deosharp team? in a game that requires prediction above all else, there can never be a flawless counter, especially when the enemy can prepare for you. Just keep in mind what we nerfed with the last complex ban.

With most playstyles and pokemon you don't lose automatically when you don't carry a surefire counter. Even a team completely unprepared for the standard deosharp core can beat it with good plays and a little bit of luck. However, a game with a full BP team is decided before the game even starts, as if you don't have one of the few things that can beat it, almost no amount of hax (they're almost always subbed) or good plays (especially since they always have the switch advantage) can beat it.

 

[qpie]

A little late to the party, but here goes...

Those who say that the metagame will adapt to full Baton Pass teams should provide some concrete examples of how this is supposed to happen. Do you believe that every team will start running Haze Quagsire (and lol Murkrow)? Do you think Imprison Musharna is actually viable? Please elaborate. Saying that the metagame will adapt to Baton Pass means absolutely nothing if you're not explaining how that's going to happen. [...]

I still feel like we have been approaching adapting to full Baton Pass teams all wrong.

Right now it seems we are looking for a single thing which

1. grants a greatly advantageous matchup against full Baton Pass teams
2. is easy to fit into a great variety of teams without worsening any of their other matchups

Yeah... no. We are not dealing with a single Pokemon, ability or item here, but with an entire playstyle. Of course no single Pokemon or even core is going to counter it in the traditional sense. At least not without being overly obscure and/ or dead weight in any other matchup.

You wouldn't just splash Sableye on your HO team to counter stall. You'd never expect any given defensive core to singlehandedly win you 90% of your matches against DeoSharp. You are all well aware that Gastrodon alone doesn't counter rain teams.

So why the flying fuck are we still discussing shit like Haze Murkrow and the fabled Imprison Musharna?

Consider the following scenario...

You are playing against a full Baton Pass team.

You lead with Thunder Wave Thundurus, your opponent leads with Scolipede.

~theorymoning~

vs.

Now your opponent is in a tough spot already. There is no way they are getting a Substitute or any defense boosts out of this matchup.

They could stay in and get some Speed boosts, but that would at the very least leave Scolipede paralyzed.

Let's assume they do just that. After they have acquired some Speed boosts (probably just one because full para is scary...) they pass them to Sylveon.

vs.

-BP>

(+Spe)
Okay, sadly Sylveon wins this direct matchup, so let's just paralyze it as well.

Now you're up against a paralyzed Sylveon with no (physically) defensive boosts. I'm sure you can think of a way to take advantage of this situation. Maybe your opponent is even nice enough to hand you the switch advantage on a silver platter by taking out Thundurus, but if they play correctly you'll have to dry switch.

Now of course they could predict this and just use Baton Pass to gain switch advantage, but that seems like a fairly risky play considering they'd just take free damage on their Sylveon and be left with a bad matchup if it fails. They also don't know your full set and there's always the looming threat of Nasty Plot.

Of course you haven't won just yet, but you've already put your opponent in a position where entirely formulaic brain-dead play won't save them and they'll have to make the right decision to win.

We've safely left auto-win territory behind us and got ourselves a real match.

vs.

-BP>

(+Spe)
No matter how that last match played out, the next time you are facing your opponent they decide to pass to Smeargle instead.

You just paralyze the damn thing. Thundurus goes to sleep. You switch as they use Ingrain or Baton Pass.

In the former scenario you'll be able to bring down Smeargle to its Focus Sash effectively robbing your opponent's team of Encore.

In the latter scenario you are down 5 - 6 and your opponent has switch advantage, but two of their Pokemon are paralyzed, they can't Spore anything anymore (no fallback plan) and chances are they only have a single Speed boost.

I'm sure you can think of a way to take advantage of this situation somehow. Maybe you can now prevent them from getting off Ingrain and you have a phazer on your team somewhere, maybe you have some sort of Speed boosting sweeper, maybe you have another Pokemon with a good matchup against Baton Pass in general which they can't put to sleep anymore, ...

Of course there's thousands of more possible scenarios (dry switch into Sylveon, full paralysis, 2+ CMs from Sylveon to Espeon, x CMs from Sylveon to Vaporeon, ballsy plays with Scolipede for multiple Speed boosts, they just lead with Smeargle, a double switch somewhere in between, predictions or predictions, ...).

Point is, it is actually possible to open up some holes in a generic full Baton Pass team without using some sort of overly obscure (and downright terrible) niche counter. Of course this doesn't mean you just fully countered them, you'll still need something to take advantage of these holes and you can still lose.

But auto-wins thanks to good matchups alone aren't what we're looking for here anyway, right?


So why not stop with the whole counter talk already? Get rid of this absurd idea that you can "counter" an entire playstyle without dedicating large parts of your team to this goal. Instead just settle on a handful of solid "checks" to get some reasonably fair matchups where neither player "auto-wins".

Think along the lines of Thundurus, Landorus-I, Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Talonflame, double boosters like Terrakion or Landorus-T, something that baits Smeargle @ Lum Berry, Haze Quagsire, Sableye, ...

And just to make this perfectly clear, I am not implying that any of these things alone fully counter full Baton Pass teams, but if you use them in conjunction with a solid team you should have a fighting chance against full Baton Pass teams.


The issue that it might be problematic for certain playstyles (read: stall) to bring enough solid "checks" to full Baton Pass teams which effectively results in a matchup-based auto-loss however still remains which is why I'm inclined to agree with slight nerf to full Baton Pass teams.

Jesus fuck, this whole terminology of checks and counters and stuff is just fucking retarded in this context. Fuk BP.

 

[WebBowser]

Making your team be less susceptible to baton pass is a choice. It's a choice to be packing Thundurus-I on every team because you don't care about some variety. It's a choice to never be able to try Pokemon that may vary in usefulness against other team archetypes, but are worthless versus baton pass (see Skarmory/Blissey) (and I mean worthless - you can't use it to lure out stuff, and you can't use it as death fodder). It's a choice to use otherwise unviable Pokemon despite having a worse matchup against playstyles you might actually enjoy playing against - playstyles I believe foster critical thinking, skill, metagame knowledge, and the ever fun predictions. Or it's a choice to use baton pass yourself, even though using a baton pass team versus another baton pass team is one of the most 50/50, crit-dependent, lead-dependent matches you can watch (with no team variety).

But wanting to see it gone is also a choice - a choice based on the baton pass teams I feel likely to encounter: teams which force my hand, and force me into those choices I mentioned before.

Community decisions about how to make a game balanced or fun or whatever is always a choice, so complaining is a huge part of it. The community does care about "earned wins," and the ability to make those choices I mentioned, so if people complain about "unearned wins," it's an argument to appeal to something the community cares about so they can choose to get rid of it.

FYI: Seismic toss is quite possibly one of stall's best tools vs BPass. It ignores stat boosts and the only mon with a 101+ hp subs is vaporeon. Throw in the fact that most other BP members don't threaten blissey/chansey AT ALL, regardless of boosts, chansey has zero trouble staying in.

Pretty much right about skarm. The only thing it can really do is force the opponent to use bpass (you might be able to take advantage of that if you really needed that mon out, but I'm not really seeing it).

Albacore On the note of limiting the number of BP users. If we even limit it to four, let alone three, the chances of BP carrying a mon capable of taking on seismic toss chansey decrease dramatically. Chansey is a very good stallmon and is 100% OU viable. Better yet, Seismic toss isn't even all that niche on it either, as it 4hkos 90% of the meta at worst, 2-3hkos almost every common BP user, and prevents it from being total taunt bait from non-ghost types (a huge problem for chansey, as everyone knows).

Anyway, gonna run some more tests tonight. I'll see if I can find some replays of teams not optimized V BP being able to win through smart play.

 

[Punchshroom]

FYI: Seismic toss is quite possibly one of stall's best tools vs BPass. It ignores stat boosts and the only mon with a 101+ hp subs is vaporeon. Throw in the fact that most other BP members don't threaten blissey/chansey AT ALL, regardless of boosts, chansey has zero trouble staying in.

The fact that they do fixed damage means that the BPers do not have to worry about random damage rolls, and can keep boosting until the brink of death before they pass to a teammate to start boosting again. I've also seen Morning Sun Espeon which happens to screw over the blobs, as well as the occasional Mega Scizor, Gliscor, and Mega Mawile which sends the blobs fleeing. It's only a matter of time before the blobs fall to Stored Power as well, because OHKOing Chansey with Stored Power is considered child's play for Baton Pass.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

The PRO BAN argument is that Baton Pass has an unfair advantage over some play styles and essentially wins at team preview.

Can someone provide examples of the types of teams that are auto losing against Baton Pass?
Are these teams really that bad off, and is it truly possible that introducing a Baton Pass counter into these poorly favored teams would make them lose to every other style of play?

edit: before someone redirects me to the 10 replays already in this thread I just want to point out there are plenty of replays of Baton Pass losing too. The objective is to understand the pro ban argument: that it is decided at team preview and there are no viable fixes. We need solid evidence that: 1. Some teams inherently lose to Baton Pass at the start, and 2. These teams cannot introduce a Baton Pass counter without becoming utter garbage.

 

[Albacore]

FYI: Seismic toss is quite possibly one of stall's best tools vs BPass. It ignores stat boosts and the only mon with a 101+ hp subs is vaporeon. Throw in the fact that most other BP members don't threaten blissey/chansey AT ALL, regardless of boosts, chansey has zero trouble staying in.

+3 0 SpA Sylveon Stored Power (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 371-437 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 645-759 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

This is after 4 turns of Speed boosts, 2 Iron Defenses/Acid Armors (not hard to pull off especially against Stall) and 3 Calm Minds (which can just be done while Chansey is Seismic Tossing you).

The fact of the matter is, after enough boosts, Stored Power can pretty much OHKO anything that's not immune to it. Chansey can't do a think against BP on its own : it needs something like Pinsir to threaten the BP chain and stop the boosts from happening, in which case Pinsir is the real BP stopper, not Chansey.

Can someone provide examples of the types of teams that are auto losing against Baton Pass?

Stall.

 

[Eashy]

FYI: Seismic toss is quite possibly one of stall's best tools vs BPass. It ignores stat boosts and the only mon with a 101+ hp subs is vaporeon. Throw in the fact that most other BP members don't threaten blissey/chansey AT ALL, regardless of boosts, chansey has zero trouble staying in.

Pretty much right about skarm. The only thing it can really do is force the opponent to use bpass (you might be able to take advantage of that if you really needed that mon out, but I'm not really seeing it).

Except not really because stored power is a thing. And with 3 CM boosts, 2 Iron Defenses, and 4 Speed Boosts 0 SpA Espeon does 80-94%. So yea Chansey is basically set up fodder to BP teams.

On my phone so i cant really paste the calculations.

Edit: Albacore you ninja. Look at his calcs.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Stall.

But isn't stall already the most viable type of team to have a Hazer or Mold Breaker Roar? Stall also should be able to use Curse and Pranksters like Whimscott viably. Red Card also works great on entry hazard dependent stall teams. Stall, of all styles, should find it very easy to adapt to an influx of Baton Pass teams!

Deoxys-S is a very strong counter to Baton Pass with Knock Off, Psycho Boost and Taunt. This can perform well on Stall.
Red Card Foretress already exists on some Stall teams.
Whimscott can be abused on Stall teams.
Crobat can be used to Quickly Taunt / Defog / Haze. It's also got good defensive typing for stall teams.
Quagsire can run haze effectively.
Any spin blocker can bring Curse! Trevenant is a big one here. Chandelure is another great spin blocker who can learn haze or 2hko the entire BP team with Infiltrator.
Sableye is great on Stall teams, as well as several other prankster users.
Tentacruel is used tons on stall teams and can learn haze.

I think stall will much enjoy the rise of Baton Pass usage. They will quickly adapt and win.

 

[WebBowser]

+3 0 SpA Sylveon Stored Power (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 371-437 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 645-759 (91.6 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
This is after 4 turns of Speed boosts, 2 Iron Defenses/Acid Armors (not hard too pull off especially against Stall) and 3 Calm Minds (which can just be done while Chansey is Seismic Tossing you).

The fact of the matter is, after enough boosts, Stored Power can pretty much OHKO anything that's not immune to it. Chansey can't do a think against BP on its own : it needs something like Pinsir to threaten the BP chain and stop the boosts from happening, in which case Pinsir is the real BP stopper, not Chansey.


Stall.

hmmm, good point, good point. However, most stall teams run a taunter as well, no? Perhaps if we send out the taunter against non-espeon mons to taunt them, and then swap to chansey to stoss espeon to threaten it out, then we could create a more favorable matchup. It is generally accepted that once espeon is out of the way, the matchup vs BP becomes significantly easier. I'll have to test that tonight, I'll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[Halcyon.]

But isn't stall already the most viable type of team to have a Hazer or Mold Breaker Roar? Stall also should be able to use Curse and Pranksters like Whimscott viably. Red Card also works great on entry hazard dependent stall teams. Stall, of all styles, should find it very easy to adapt to an influx of Baton Pass teams!

If you think stall runs Curse Pokemon, then you must not play stall. The only thing that is even semi viable as a check to BP is Haze Quagsire, which is stupidly redundant and only used to combat BP. Not only that but not every stall team has Quagsire on it at all. Another thing that I think is funny is that Denisss himself said that Haze Quagsire doesn't even work as a counter since it can do nothing back to Baton Pass teams and can be destroyed by Sylveon. Stall and balance I would say are the playstyles that do worst against BP, although HO will often try to set up alongside BP only to be Encored and set up on further.