Metagame NP: RU Stage -1: Message to Oglemi, Nails, and Honko (VENOMOTH STOLEN FROM US))

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breh

強いだね
I've been running Fletchinder and it's a mix of hilarious and really underwhelming.

Some games it becomes your win condition; keep rocks off and Fletchinder alive and you have a mon that just outpriorities the whole team and sweeps.

Other games it's really mediocre. It really, really needs Rhyperior gone (it WILL miss wow on predicted switches of Rhyperior, 100% guaranteed) and having milotic gone / extremely weak is also important. Bronzong needs to be gone or it will toxic you. Gligar needs to be knocked off. The list goes on, but beyond those relatively common mons there isn't much that takes STAB flying moves easily, regardless of how piss poor the attacking stat off of which they run is. A lot of things that aren't flying resistant can't switch into repeated acrobatics; once they're weak enough, you can SD on the switch and just KO them straight up.

In all honesty, I'm interested what would happen if people tried running dugtrio with it to get rid of rhyperior. It doesn't help vs. gligar but there's not that much that can.

E: The set I'm using is

Fletchinder
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

speed is to creep gligars that creep gligar
 
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Hey everyone! I know we've been talking about the suspects and all, but i'd just like to change the topic for a second (feel free to continue discussing though). Recently i ended up pretty bored and decided to make a team entirely around NFE pokemon that may or may not have potential to see how they do (gave it out to a few people too like robert alfons and detroitlolcat for fun laddering sessions, shoutout!), and i think i might've struck a gem, ironically one i didnt think would work at all before.


NOW YOU LOSE (Fletchinder) @ Nothing (gamefreak not giving us Flying Gem .__.)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (ev spread is preliminary, adding more bulk is an option)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

A lot of people thought that Fletchinder would have some lower tier viability early on after we discovered Gale Wings, simply because its base attack is only a few points lower than Talonflame's... until we learned it didnt learn either of Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, which put kind of a damper on its potential, but even then i think that this Fletchinder set has the potential to work in xy RU and below. Fletchinder still has access to priority Acrobatics, and whilei t forces Fletchinder to give up its item to work until Flying Gem is released, it still has enough power to revenge kill weakened offensive threats, and sweep after a SD boost (hard to set up sometimes cause frail, but not impossible, especially when the opponent has shaymin or escavalier, having no item actually helps it check the latter). At first i ran SD/acro/overheat/tailwind, but eventually i realized i wasn't using any offensive moves other than Acrobatics anyway, so i decided to convert to Will-O-Wisp+Roost, which i find to work much better. Will-O-Wisp lets Fletchinder burn some of the annoying pokemon that resist its Acrobatics, such as Bronzong, registeel, and especially Rhyperior, getting residual chip damage, weakening their attacks, and eventually wearing them down to the point that Fletchinder can get past them later on. Will-O-Wisp's burning makes it slightly easier for fletchinder to set up, too, especially when comined with priority roost, just think about what makes Sableye so annoying. Overall definitely not a top threat imo, but i feel this set makes Fletchinder at least usable, and its definitely nothing to scoff at in the right hands, just ask oglemi :)!

So has anyone else thought about using Fletchinder/tested this set after the post? if so, how did it go? do you think its usable?
I ran Swords Dance, Acrobatics, Flame Charge, and U-Turn/Roost on a few teams before. Adamant, 252 Attack & Speed, 4 Def.

Escavalier literally cannot OHKO you if you're at full health, even if it's Banded and gets a crit. Shaymin can't OHKO it either, so it's interesting as to what you can use as setup fodder. I was actually pretty surprised at how many chances this thing can get to setup honestly.

Flame Charge is its only Fire STAB to abuse, but it's also great for boosting your speed to outspeed other priority like Sucker Punches when you use Acro. After an SD you can OHKO Sableye, Escav, Delphox, Slurpuff, Shaymin, and Azelf, and 2HKO Bronzong which can 4HKO you in return at best. There's a 93% chance to OHKO Aromatisse after Rocks, and it obviously can't do much back to you unless it carries Toxic over Protect or something.

And without a Swords Dance up you can still OHKO Hitmonlee and Gallade, which is quite useful.

It's no Talonflame and def is not God Tier, but it is surprisingly good for clean up late-game. Especially on a team with hazards.
 

Srn

Water (Spirytus - 96%)
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OUPL Champion
Iirc this is why imo Cress should be manditory on stall, due to it's ability to basically ruin most H due to it's titanic bulk and support movepool. I've been using the timid 252 screens/lunar dance gariant on HO as a pivot and reliable wall/screener, I've been using the CM moonblast set on balance, stall and offense and it works well imo. I've also been using 2 underrated sets on stall:
Cresselia @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest | Timid Nature (been using both, timid can do fast 95 speed tier stuff but modest ebelt moonblast vs sabel is fun)
Moonblast |Lunar Dance / Hidden Power [Fire] | Ice Beam | Psychic

Finding this to be a great lure in RU rn, it can break subroost kyus subs easily with Moonblast and outspeed it for a 2HKO. HP fire kills esca hard while LD lets common offensive mons sweep more than once, the lure factor of hp fire v esca is great for weakening it for things like Kyurem to sweep later. Psychic > shock cause most things in the tier rn are hit harder by Psychic. Ice beam is the best last slot coverage for cress on this set by far so using it n stuff.

Cresselia (AwesomeCress) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
Calm Mind | Psyshock / Moonblast | Rest | Sleep Talk

Standard CM spread for taking things like sneasel knock off and laughing at it. Resttalk meand you only have 1 coverage which leads to psyshock for STAB and CM wars or moonblast to not be sableye hard shitted on. It also means this set is subjective to the RNG, but just like Cromat's CroCune, it has the titanic bulk to deal with punishments from getting greedy from the RNG. Honestly, this thing can shit on HO rn, Cress used to take like ~40% from gene uturn in OU (+1 too!) So I doubt it takes much from the uturns in RU like azelf's. Same with Knock Off, barely any 2 back to back knock offs can kill it in the tier, and sabeleye's is kind of pathetic considering how well it takes the offensive ones in the tier. I would post imgs or calcs but I'm on mobile.

Have a fun Cresselia time in RU! ^_^
Yeah, I really disagree that cresselia is meant to be on stall or something.

As a special wall, or Physical, I guess it does OK?
It doesn't have access to any phazing moves, nor taunt, and only has 8pp recovery.
in terms of passive damage, all it really musters is toxic
Doesn't wish pass or heal status at all.
And doesn't have the greatest resistances either, obviously.
Can't set or remove hazards either.
The only thing it really brings to stall is bulk, and a lot of other pokemon out there can boast the same (perhaps not the same level of bulk, but better typing can make up for that.)

I just think that a lot of what cress can do (screens, weather, lunar dance) is suited for offensive, and it really doesn't have a place in stall.
It's bulky, don't get me wrong, but there are a lot cooler pokemon to use (DAMN SLIGOO I GOTTA TRY THAT HOLY CRAP)
 
I know that this is going to sound ridiculous but because people are saying that Bronzong is the only or best counter to Kyurem I wanna just say that Kyurem can learn Shadow Ball. I know I know Shadow Ball gives Kyurem very little coverage but it does help him hit the two best walls in this tier, Bronzong and Cresseila.

252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 161-190 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 195-231 (43.9 - 52%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's maybe stretching but it's a great move on a Life Orb or Specs set.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
Yeah, I really disagree that cresselia is meant to be on stall or something.

As a special wall, or Physical, I guess it does OK?
It doesn't have access to any phazing moves, nor taunt, and only has 8pp recovery.
in terms of passive damage, all it really musters is toxic
Doesn't wish pass or heal status at all.
And doesn't have the greatest resistances either, obviously.
Can't set or remove hazards either.
The only thing it really brings to stall is bulk, and a lot of other pokemon out there can boast the same (perhaps not the same level of bulk, but better typing can make up for that.)

I just think that a lot of what cress can do (screens, weather, lunar dance) is suited for offensive, and it really doesn't have a place in stall.
It's bulky, don't get me wrong, but there are a lot cooler pokemon to use (DAMN SLIGOO I GOTTA TRY THAT HOLY CRAP)
Take it from me, experienced stall player, you don't need to bring unnecessary support to stall. A CroCune type set works amazing on stall cause it's a great switchin to many things in this meta and it can easily set up post-sableye , and if this wasn't obvious, it's a win condition more than it is a wall.
 
Hey everyone! I know we've been talking about the suspects and all, but i'd just like to change the topic for a second (feel free to continue discussing though). Recently i ended up pretty bored and decided to make a team entirely around NFE pokemon that may or may not have potential to see how they do (gave it out to a few people too like robert alfons and detroitlolcat for fun laddering sessions, shoutout!), and i think i might've struck a gem, ironically one i didnt think would work at all before.


NOW YOU LOSE (Fletchinder) @ Nothing (gamefreak not giving us Flying Gem .__.)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (ev spread is preliminary, adding more bulk is an option)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

A lot of people thought that Fletchinder would have some lower tier viability early on after we discovered Gale Wings, simply because its base attack is only a few points lower than Talonflame's... until we learned it didnt learn either of Brave Bird or Flare Blitz, which put kind of a damper on its potential, but even then i think that this Fletchinder set has the potential to work in xy RU and below. Fletchinder still has access to priority Acrobatics, and whilei t forces Fletchinder to give up its item to work until Flying Gem is released, it still has enough power to revenge kill weakened offensive threats, and sweep after a SD boost (hard to set up sometimes cause frail, but not impossible, especially when the opponent has shaymin or escavalier, having no item actually helps it check the latter). At first i ran SD/acro/overheat/tailwind, but eventually i realized i wasn't using any offensive moves other than Acrobatics anyway, so i decided to convert to Will-O-Wisp+Roost, which i find to work much better. Will-O-Wisp lets Fletchinder burn some of the annoying pokemon that resist its Acrobatics, such as Bronzong, registeel, and especially Rhyperior, getting residual chip damage, weakening their attacks, and eventually wearing them down to the point that Fletchinder can get past them later on. Will-O-Wisp's burning makes it slightly easier for fletchinder to set up, too, especially when comined with priority roost, just think about what makes Sableye so annoying. Overall definitely not a top threat imo, but i feel this set makes Fletchinder at least usable, and its definitely nothing to scoff at in the right hands, just ask oglemi :)!

So has anyone else thought about using Fletchinder/tested this set after the post? if so, how did it go? do you think its usable?
little burd is pretty good and when it is not sweeping oglemi it always does something like burning annoying physical threats or revenge killing fighting/grass/bug types or at least force them out. I experimented a bit with Taunt over Swords Dance or Will-o-Wisp to be a stallbreaker a-la Sableye but with goblin in the tier there is no reason to use that kind of set. It is also pretty frail (and if you run eviolite you become pissweak) and harmless against special walls/attackers. Also it is not sweeping anytime soon without SD boosts. USE BURD
 
Been playing a couple of matches with a full NFE team provided by Molk (thank u :>) and I can say holy hell Sliggoo eats special attackers for breakfast


Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse

Anyone who has played Gen 5 RU knows how surprisingly effective mono Dragon is as a defensive typing (Drud sez hi) and Sliggoo has enough special bulk to soak up any hit that's not and STAB and SE and boosted with ease. Some calcs to demonstrate just how bulky it really is:

Neutral STAB special hits boosted by item/stat boosting?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 100-118 (29.4 - 34.8%) -- 10.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 102-121 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 117-138 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 130-154 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

None of these can even hope to 2HKO Sliggoo without hazards around, no matter how hard they hit.

So how about supereffective attacks?

4 SpA Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 80-96 (23.5 - 28.3%) -- 82.8% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 92-110 (27.1 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Gorebyss Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 88-104 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 134-158 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 138-164 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 7.8% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

That's quite insane, you'll have to agree. So why use Sliggoo, you ask? Well, stopping all Shaymin sets (with ap Sipper) and al Raikou sets lacking CM might be a good starting point. Like I showed, not having a SE attack for Sliggoo on your special sweeper/wallbreaker means that it will wall you unless you hit crazy hard like Exploud. It can also switch into random Fire Blasts flying around without even batting an eye. The special bulk here is unrivaled in the tier.

Of course it does have quite a number of flaws, sadly. For starters, that it can wall something doesn't mean it can beat something, as it hits like a sissy. On top of that, it has to rely on RestTalk, which is less than ideal. Finally, its physical bulk is piss poor, meaning that you will have to stay away from anything that is likely to carry a decently strong physical attack (especially Knock Off!).

Despite that, do not dismiss our little slug friend, but give it a try! Even if it doesn't win you a match, it still looks rather cute, right? There is no losing when using Sliggoo. :>
i remember using sliggoo as a rain stop when the frog was running rampant in uu with rest/hydration shenanigans, but I can't really see it doing much in ru unless your team is really weak to shay.

on the topic of nfe mons, roselia is a decent hazard stacker with good special bulk, and piloswine has great dual stabs, rocks, priority and is surprisingly tanky despite the bad defensive typing
 
Okay, I have a tropius set of a physical attacker with this:

Tropius @ Salac Berry/ Liechi Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance/Curse
- Roost
- Leaf Blade

I dont quite know how well to play it, like whether to go for a sub straight away (probably not) DD/Curse? (maybe)

About the attacks, there is only one option and its leafblade. Most DMG over SeedBomb, same PP. And the crit chances are lovely.
 
Has anyone mentioned Expert Belt Emboar? Sorry if it has been. Anyway, bluffing the Choice Band and then surprising the opponent with Sucker Punch / Wild Charge is pretty cool. He can even switch in on non Banded Escavalier (I feel that being able to take Esca's attacks is pretty vital this gen) if necessary even with minimal investment in bulk. He also OHKO's Azelf with Sucker Punch (if Adamant).
252+ Atk Escavalier Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 280-330 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 298-350 (102.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


EDIT: Whoops sorry this has been mentioned already (saw it after reading the posts i've missed)
 
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Has anyone else tried using Floette? At first I thought it was underwhelming, but after playing some more matches with it, it proved to be more useful. It's bulk is pretty good with the Eviolite, though not as great as I had hoped (I wasn't fully invested in defensive stats however). Here is the set I was using:
Floette (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SAtk / 112 SDef
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect
I invested in Sp. Atk just so that Moonblast would actually do something since it's its only chance at offensive presence with base 75 Sp. Atk. I considered putting Psychic or Toxic on it, but Protect was too important for it to recover and I needed Aromatherapy for my status-vulnerable team. Floette is nice but it needs both its bulk and power and may not be the greatest choice for cleric especially with Aromatisse and Cresselia around.
 
Has anyone else tried using Floette? At first I thought it was underwhelming, but after playing some more matches with it, it proved to be more useful. It's bulk is pretty good with the Eviolite, though not as great as I had hoped (I wasn't fully invested in defensive stats however). Here is the set I was using:
Floette (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SAtk / 112 SDef
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast
- Protect
I invested in Sp. Atk just so that Moonblast would actually do something since it's its only chance at offensive presence with base 75 Sp. Atk. I considered putting Psychic or Toxic on it, but Protect was too important for it to recover and I needed Aromatherapy for my status-vulnerable team. Floette is nice but it needs both its bulk and power and may not be the greatest choice for cleric especially with Aromatisse and Cresselia around.
Floette is totally outclassed by Aromatisse. If they both run a specially defensive spread Floette is only about 20% more specially bulky, has no leftovers and it a lot less psyically bulky. Not to mention that Aromatisse has a decent Special Attack, passes bigger wishes and can potentially sweep with calm mind.
 
i remember using sliggoo as a rain stop when the frog was running rampant in uu with rest/hydration shenanigans, but I can't really see it doing much in ru unless your team is really weak to shay.

on the topic of nfe mons, roselia is a decent hazard stacker with good special bulk, and piloswine has great dual stabs, rocks, priority and is surprisingly tanky despite the bad defensive typing
Another decent eviolite abuser is Gurdurr. He's insanely bulky but unlike most eviolite abusers, actually has decent attacking capabilities. My favorite set is a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Drain Punch/Knock Off. That can be changed to accommodate your needs (like a specially bulky set) but it takes away from his main selling point- he has bulk, but he can't be easily set up on. Also, it might be worth it to change the HP EVs to Special Defense or at least a split of Defense and Special Defense to maximize both the eviolite boost and the *recovery* provided by drain punch.

As an added bonus, Gurdurr can also run several decent bulk up sets, ranging from one with Bulk Up/Mach Punch/Drain Punch/Knock Off to a set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Bulk Up/Knock Off and full special defense EVs. Sure, he isn't a fan of knock off ruining his eviolite, but if he can keep it intact he can be a monster, plus he can punish most knock off abusers (sableye won't enjoy eating a knock off to the face, especially if the bulk up sets have bulked up a bit. He also can't burn, making him a poor overall switch in. Anything that carries a STAB knock off has to be wary of eating a Drain Punch to the face, and stuff like Escavalier won't enjoy a powerful Drain Punch, especially since they mostly run special sets. Azelf has better things to be doing against Gurrdurr anyway, like using psychic/psyshock, but even those fail to OHKO gurdurr, and Knock Off OHKOs back. Gligar can knock off Gurdurr's eviolite, but faces getting it's own eviolite knocked off in return. It also has to watch out for Ice Punch on the offensive sets. The most viable knock off-er would probably be Tangela/Tangrowth, but even it gets beaten by the sleep talk/bulk up set.

Tl;dr: Gurdurr could be decent thanks to good bulk after eviolite, Guts + RestTalk and Bulk Up sets. Has anyone tried him?
 
Another decent eviolite abuser is Gurdurr. He's insanely bulky but unlike most eviolite abusers, actually has decent attacking capabilities. My favorite set is a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Drain Punch/Knock Off. That can be changed to accommodate your needs (like a specially bulky set) but it takes away from his main selling point- he has bulk, but he can't be easily set up on. Also, it might be worth it to change the HP EVs to Special Defense or at least a split of Defense and Special Defense to maximize both the eviolite boost and the *recovery* provided by drain punch.

As an added bonus, Gurdurr can also run several decent bulk up sets, ranging from one with Bulk Up/Mach Punch/Drain Punch/Knock Off to a set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Bulk Up/Knock Off and full special defense EVs. Sure, he isn't a fan of knock off ruining his eviolite, but if he can keep it intact he can be a monster, plus he can punish most knock off abusers (sableye won't enjoy eating a knock off to the face, especially if the bulk up sets have bulked up a bit. He also can't burn, making him a poor overall switch in. Anything that carries a STAB knock off has to be wary of eating a Drain Punch to the face, and stuff like Escavalier won't enjoy a powerful Drain Punch, especially since they mostly run special sets. Azelf has better things to be doing against Gurrdurr anyway, like using psychic/psyshock, but even those fail to OHKO gurdurr, and Knock Off OHKOs back. Gligar can knock off Gurdurr's eviolite, but faces getting it's own eviolite knocked off in return. It also has to watch out for Ice Punch on the offensive sets. The most viable knock off-er would probably be Tangela/Tangrowth, but even it gets beaten by the sleep talk/bulk up set.

Tl;dr: Gurdurr could be decent thanks to good bulk after eviolite, Guts + RestTalk and Bulk Up sets. Has anyone tried him?
I ran Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Knock Off, Mach Punch with Guts. Adamant, 252 Atk, 252 HP, 4 SpDef. Worked very well. Haven't used it recently though. In hindsight, I think SpDef investment would definitely help it more.
 

GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love
Another decent eviolite abuser is Gurdurr. He's insanely bulky but unlike most eviolite abusers, actually has decent attacking capabilities. My favorite set is a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Drain Punch/Knock Off. That can be changed to accommodate your needs (like a specially bulky set) but it takes away from his main selling point- he has bulk, but he can't be easily set up on. Also, it might be worth it to change the HP EVs to Special Defense or at least a split of Defense and Special Defense to maximize both the eviolite boost and the *recovery* provided by drain punch.

As an added bonus, Gurdurr can also run several decent bulk up sets, ranging from one with Bulk Up/Mach Punch/Drain Punch/Knock Off to a set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Bulk Up/Knock Off and full special defense EVs. Sure, he isn't a fan of knock off ruining his eviolite, but if he can keep it intact he can be a monster, plus he can punish most knock off abusers (sableye won't enjoy eating a knock off to the face, especially if the bulk up sets have bulked up a bit. He also can't burn, making him a poor overall switch in. Anything that carries a STAB knock off has to be wary of eating a Drain Punch to the face, and stuff like Escavalier won't enjoy a powerful Drain Punch, especially since they mostly run special sets. Azelf has better things to be doing against Gurrdurr anyway, like using psychic/psyshock, but even those fail to OHKO gurdurr, and Knock Off OHKOs back. Gligar can knock off Gurdurr's eviolite, but faces getting it's own eviolite knocked off in return. It also has to watch out for Ice Punch on the offensive sets. The most viable knock off-er would probably be Tangela/Tangrowth, but even it gets beaten by the sleep talk/bulk up set.

Tl;dr: Gurdurr could be decent thanks to good bulk after eviolite, Guts + RestTalk and Bulk Up sets. Has anyone tried him?
Ive tried gurdurr in RU, and due to the overwhelming psychic and flying pressure (CM Cress, LO Azelf, Yanmega, Braviary, Shaymin bcuz sdef drops etc.) I believe he isn't really that great this gen, he'll probably be a good contender in NU, but idk. Maybe y'all have used him differently or better, but i usually get the same results every time
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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So I ended up experimenting with Fletchinder recently, because it turned out to be really cool, but I ended up using it on more of a balanced team due to the fact it needs defog support (I chose Gligar). So one core that I've found really useful in the tier right now is Lanturn / Bronzong, due to their really nice synergy, and the excellent support they provide for a team, they are also capable of handling many of the special attackers in the tier when put together.



Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Atk / 112 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Gyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Ice Beam


So the reason I'm running this particular Bronzong set, is that 148 Atk Zen Headbutt is capable of breaking 101 hp substitutes made by Kyurem, so it is incapable of sub stalling Gyro Ball pp (credit to DTC for the spread although he told me 144 when you need 148, smh). When / If Kyurem leaves the tier it is probably worth it to run Earthquake over Zen Headbutt to allow Bronzong to handle Raikou more easily. Stealth Rock and Toxic are pretty much mandatory for Bronzong and can really help wear down the opponents team, so your win condition can sweep. Lanturn's spread is the mixed bulk spread from last gen, because I am to lazy to come up with my own, but heal bell is really useful for keeping Lanturn, Bronzong, and the physically defensive mon you choose to complete this core status free, meaning your core will be worn down less easily than the opponent. A slow volt switch is pretty cool for muh momentum, while scald is there to spread burns, making Lanturn even more efficient at walling on the physical side. It successfully covers Zong's Fire weakness, while it enjoy's having its Grass and Ground weaknesses covered by Bronzong. If you use this core make sure you have something to take knock off's which this core really hates due to the lack of recovery aside from leftovers. A solid revenge killer is useful as well, as this core can be set up on by certain calm mind users.
 
So I ended up experimenting with Fletchinder recently, because it turned out. to be really cool, but I ended up using it on more of a balanced team due to the fact it needs defog support (I chose Gligar). So one core that I've found really useful in the tier right now is Lanturn / Bronzong, due to their really nice synergy, and the excellent support they provide for a team, they are also capable of handling many of the special attackers in the tier when put together.



Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Atk / 112 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Gyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Ice Beam


So the reason I'm running this particular Bronzong set, is that 148 Atk Zen Headbutt is capable of breaking 101 hp substitutes made by Kyurem, so it is incapable of sub stalling Gyro Ball pp (credit to DTC for the spread although he told me 144 when you need 148, smh). When / If Kyurem leaves the tier it is probably worth it to run Earthquake over Zen Headbutt to allow Bronzong to handle Raikou more easily. Stealth Rock and Toxic are pretty much mandatory for Bronzong and can really help wear down the opponents team, so your win condition can sweep. Lanturn's spread is the mixed bulk spread from last gen, because I am to lazy to come up with my own, but heal bell is really useful for keeping Lanturn, Bronzong, and the physically defensive mon you choose to complete this core status free, meaning your core will be worn down less easily than the opponent. A slow volt switch is pretty cool for muh momentum, while scald is there to spread burns, making Lanturn even more efficient at walling on the physical side. It successfully covers Zong's Fire weakness, while it enjoy's having its Grass and Ground weaknesses covered by Bronzong. If you use this core make sure you have something to take knock off's which this core really hates due to the lack of recovery aside from leftovers. A solid revenge killer is useful as well, as this core can be set up on by certain calm mind users.
I have stolen tried that core and it turned out to be very successful (Also we had kind of a mirror match). I tried pairing the two with Wishpassers like Alomomola (who checks escavalier) and Aromatisse (who deals with fighting types) with decent success. Also Heal bell on Lanturn frees up a moveslot on Aromatisse for Calm mind that makes him terrifying against stall.
 
So how far out from here is NU?

Anyway, I'll come back to talk about relevant stuff when I can get more games after workxd
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
So I ended up experimenting with Fletchinder recently, because it turned out to be really cool, but I ended up using it on more of a balanced team due to the fact it needs defog support (I chose Gligar). So one core that I've found really useful in the tier right now is Lanturn / Bronzong, due to their really nice synergy, and the excellent support they provide for a team, they are also capable of handling many of the special attackers in the tier when put together.



Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Atk / 112 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Gyro Ball
- Zen Headbutt
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Ice Beam


So the reason I'm running this particular Bronzong set, is that 148 Atk Zen Headbutt is capable of breaking 101 hp substitutes made by Kyurem, so it is incapable of sub stalling Gyro Ball pp (credit to DTC for the spread although he told me 144 when you need 148, smh). When / If Kyurem leaves the tier it is probably worth it to run Earthquake over Zen Headbutt to allow Bronzong to handle Raikou more easily. Stealth Rock and Toxic are pretty much mandatory for Bronzong and can really help wear down the opponents team, so your win condition can sweep. Lanturn's spread is the mixed bulk spread from last gen, because I am to lazy to come up with my own, but heal bell is really useful for keeping Lanturn, Bronzong, and the physically defensive mon you choose to complete this core status free, meaning your core will be worn down less easily than the opponent. A slow volt switch is pretty cool for muh momentum, while scald is there to spread burns, making Lanturn even more efficient at walling on the physical side. It successfully covers Zong's Fire weakness, while it enjoy's having its Grass and Ground weaknesses covered by Bronzong. If you use this core make sure you have something to take knock off's which this core really hates due to the lack of recovery aside from leftovers. A solid revenge killer is useful as well, as this core can be set up on by certain calm mind users.
great core but subroost kyurem still beats zong due to correct prediction between sub, roost and ice beam iirc. It's really a prediction war in the end
 
great core but subroost kyurem still beats zong due to correct prediction between sub, roost and ice beam iirc. It's really a prediction war in the end
To be honest the only way it can "win" is if Zen Headbutt misses within 4 or 5 turns on several occasions (I say win loosely because after than Gyro Ball will usually kill Kyurem from half health anyway). Also if you get unlucky and run out of Gyro Balls somehow, Toxic (used upon roosting) + Zen Headbutt will kill Kyurem faster than Ice Beam kills Bronzong.
 
I think Poliwrath deserves a mention here. Has respectable bulk (90 / 95 / 90) and access to a phazing move which is pretty useful since hazard stacking with a few really good Defoggers and Spinners. Reliable Esca switch in resisting 3 of 4 moves common Esca carry and could do some work against SubRoost Kyurem.
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd ~Using a generic 252 HP / 252 Atk spread because I don't have benchmarks to base EVs from
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sub Roost Kyurem does about ~35% max with Earth Power. RestTalk isn't the most reliable form of recovery but it works surprisingly well in with Circle Throw. Circle Throw's negative priority is sometimes a pain though.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rubeta-111711436
Here's a replay that shows a bit of Poliwrath's bulk and a lot of phazing which works great with hazards. Forgot to give Xatu Magic Bounce smh.
 
Last edited:

Molk

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So now that its 4/20 and everyone on the RU council has put in their votes, i'm here to announce the results of the three RU quicksuspects! I'll be including the tally for each and every Pokemon as well as the reasoning given from each voter in this post, all bans should be made on the RUbeta ladder shortly :).

Sableye: Is Banned, 8-0 in favor of ban

DTC:
Sableye: BAN

Specially defensive Sableye cripples many offensive and stall Pokemon alike. Between WoW weakening physical attack, and Knock Off removing the boosting item, it is challenging to break through. Sableye makes many Pokemon a lot worse in this metagame as it can effortlessly shut down any physical attacker that isn't Fire-type / holding a Lum Berry with Prankster WoW, while also being bulky on the special side. Defensive teams are forced to use one of the few special Fairy-types to beat it, and Knock Off goes a long way in crippling them longterm.

Tsunami:
Sableye: BAN

The epitome of a broken support Pokemon. Sableye shuts down way too many physical attackers in the tier with Prankster Will-O-Wisp, a move which is hard to switch into since there are really not many viable Fire-types in the tier outside of Moltres, Emboar, and Delphox. Delphox is obviously not going to enjoy taking a STAB Knock Off, and the other two are weakened / crippled from losing their item as well. Speaking of Knock Off, it's another reason why Sableye is broken. Sure, Pokemon such as Aromatisse are "perfect counters", but Sableye can cripple them for the remainder of the match by using Knock Off. Sableye shuts down too many Pokemon on both offense and stall, and Scald burns truly aren't too much of an issue usually since Sableye can out heal defensive Pokemon with Recover regardless. It can also easily afford to run 252 HP / 252 SDef with a Careful nature, as it really does not need any Defense investment due to Will-O-Wisp and its great typing. Fighting-types can hit it with Knock Off, but have to switch out due to the fear of Will-O-Wisp; after the first Knock Off, the second one is weakened regardless, so Sableye can usually Recover anyway. Overall, Prankster in tandem with Sableye's typing and movepool make it too large of a threat in the RU metagame, and one which deserves to be banned.

Hotncold:
Sableye: Ban

Most annoying pokemon in the tier, still underrated for a lot of people because their poor bulk stab base but is really bulky with the custom spread; Wisp with priority allow to beat physical threats along with Taunt to defeat defensive teams, with the special spread and recover priority can stall special threats as well specially if this things switch into Knock Off and loses their Life Orb/Specs item.

Tl;dr: broken stallbreaker which is gonna stall you to death unless you're using Moltres, Emboar or Aromatisse, in any case you're not gonna enjoy losing your current item and still stalls 5/6 mons of your team.

Molk:
Sableye: ban

Although it isn't an offensive behemoth like Kyurem or Azelf, Sableye is still a negative infleunce on the tier and deserves to be banned to BL2 for its support capabilities. The combination of Prankster Will-O-wisp, Prankster Taunt, and STAB Knock Off on a Pokemon with Prankster recovery simply makes it too easy for sableye to cripple a large section of the tier with ease. Priority Will-O-wisp ensures that Sableye can easily shut down pretty much any physical attacker that isnt a fire type/carries a lum berry, which is pretty damn limiting if you ask me, alongside this, Sableye's prankster Taunt makes it practically impossible for any defensive Pokemon not named Aromatisse to do its job as long as Sableye is on tyhe field. and thus it gives defensive teams major trouble. There are a few Pokemon such as Aroimatise, Moltres, and Emboar that can stand up to Sableye's Wow/Taunt/Recover combination, but even these Pokemon don't enjoy having their item Knocked Off, and because of Prankster Recover, Sableye can often simply outlast these threats.

Nails:

Sableye: Ban, it doesn't have much counterplay. You need to use a fire type with recovery (read: moltres) to avoid getting worn down with burn or knock off, and you can't break it easily with physical attacks because of burn or special attacks because it can knock off specs and taunt set up attempts. It is pretty fragile but it makes the opponent play predictably and has amazing synergy with most stall cores as well. It centralizes teams too far around having pkmn that can kill it.

Spirit:

Sableye: Ban

By far the most powerful support Pokemon in the tier. Sableye's ability to straight-up dismantle teams on its own while possessing limited counters / checks all the while having the ability to cripple its would-be switch-ins make it too much for the RU tier. There's really only two counters to Sableye ATM (Aromatisse and Emboar) and both of them are stripped of a lot of their utility upon switching into Knock Off. Aside from these two, your team needs extremely powerful special attackers such as Moltres or Yanmega to break through it. The thing is though, is that again, Knock off cripples a lot of the Pokemon that would normally try to switch into it. Aside from physical Fire-types, Sableye cripples damn near every physical attacker with ease, to the point where many are forced to run a Lum Berry to bypass it. Moreover, Sableye's influence on more bulkier teams is just as toxic, due to the fact that these teams lack powerful, special attackers, ultimately allowing Sableye to solo any defensive team lacking Aromatissse. This segues into my next point: should the opposing team have a Sableye of its own, the team with the Sableye that speed creeps the most ends up winning, which really shows the sheer impact this Pokemon has on the match. Overall, it beats way too many Pokemon and the fact that pretty much every single one of its checks / counters is neutralized in some form by Knock Off makes it all the more absurd.

Atomicllamas:
Sableye: Ban

Sableye may seem like an odd choice to suspect for quick-banning given its BST, but Sableye's combination of an amazing defensive typing, the perfect ability, and a move pool that gives Sableye exactly what it needs to effectively shut down all opposing defensive Pokemon (barring Aromatisse), while still being extremely obnoxious to take down for offensive teams. Sableye is also extremely hard to switch into for a defensive mon, due to knock off hitting decently hard thanks to STAB, while still removing the item from things that normally wouldn't mind taking Sableye's attacks, making them easier for Sableye and his teammates to take advantage of long term. These factors make Sableye clearly broken as a supportive mon in the current RU beta metagame.

Silentverse:

Sableye: Ban

Literally the most broken thing in the metagame right now. Sableye outstalls almost every Pokemon one-on-one with the combination of Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Knock Off, and Recover. Only a very small selection of Pokemon are capable of beating this thing, and none of them like losing their item from Knock Off, as it makes them even more vulnerable to being worn down from Will-O-Wisp and hazards (coincidentally, Sableye spinblocks and easily beats what's probably the best spinner in the tier, Hitmonlee, without a sweat). No team is safe from this thing; stall, offense, and balance alike each get destroyed, and for that reason, Sableye needs to be removed ASAP.


Kyurem: Is Banned, 8-0 in favor of ban

DTC:

Kyurem: BAN

Not only does Kyurem hit ridiculously hard with its powerful STAB moves, but it is very capable defensively as well. 125 / 90 / 90 bulk allows it to survive most offensive attacks, even ones that hit it super effectively. Ice / Dragon does give Kyurem a lot of weaknesses but it also gives it very helpful resistances in Electric, Grass, and Water, and a neutrality to Ice. Choice Specs Kyurem is able to decimate most Pokemon while Sub + Roost is a monster that both hits pretty hard and is tough to take out, especially when combined with Toxic Spikes. Overall, Kyurem lacks reliable switchins and is just way too good of a Pokemon in general.

Tsunami:

Kyurem: BAN

Well, obviously Kyurem hits ridiculously hard with Draco Meteor and Ice Beam. There are answers to Kyurem such as Registeel and Bronzong, but neither of these Pokemon usually run recovery, and without Pokemon such as these, Kyurem is almost impossible to defeat without being a major thorn in one's side. It has many options for sets as well, such as SubRoost, Roost + 3 Attack, Choice Specs, and Choice Scarf, each with specific roles in the metagame. Choice Specs Earth Power can 2HKO Registeel, softening it up for later if one hits it on a predicted switch. Even though Kyurem is weak to Stealth Rock, its typing is otherwise excellent, giving it a wide array of resistances it can use to come in easily on even threatening attackers such as Raikou. Its bulk is also solid for a sweeper, letting it tank even super effective hits. 95 Base Speed is solid as well. Overall, Kyurem's combination of power, bulk, and typing make it too great of a threat in the metagame.

Hotncold:
Kyurem: Ban

Flawless, their BST speaks about itself. Great bulk with 125/90/90 overall, solid typing that allows to check big threats such Shaymin, Raikou and Abomasnow even being weak to Stealth Rock, relatively fast, really strong with different special options: Choice Scarf is one of the best revenger killers in the tier and after you kills steel/the uncommon fairy mons this thing can clean easily, Specs is a great wallbreaker which can hko-2hko pretty much every mon in the tier, all-out attacker version hits strong without being locked into a choice can lure some of their best checks like Escavalier with Hidden Power Fire and finally SubRoost set is able to stall defensive threats with Pressure and some of their best counters like Bronzong. Also, Kyurem is more dangerous if possible under Hail which takes advantage of the extra damage and able to use Blizzard, Kyurem is just insane on this tier.

Molk:
Kyurem: ban

With an astounding (not to mention well distributed) base stat total of 660, it was pretty obvious to anyone Kyurem was going to be trouble once it entered the tier. Kyurem's raw power is simply astounding, having dual base 130 attacking stats and all the coverage it needs between Dragon/Ice/Ground/hidden power, and very few pokemon can afford to stand up to it, and the ones that can have a tendency to either lack reliable recovery, or be vulnerable to things such as Toxic Spikes that often find themselves paired along with Kyurem (trust me, Toxic Spikes+Subroost Kyurem is extremely good). Kyurem isn't just powerful though, its also absurdly bulky, with great 125/90/90 defenses, Pressure, and access to reliable recovery in Roost, making it a very real defensive threat too, and can run all kinbds of good sets, including but not limited to Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, 3 attacks+roost, Mixed, and Subroost (the latter of which has the uncanny ability to pp stall stuff it should be losing too, such as: bronzong :|), making it somewhat unpredictable too. Overall, kyurem's combination of raw stats, recovery, pressure ability, and the limits it puts on teambuilding make it a bit too much for RU, and imo it should be banned.

Nails:

Kyurem: Ban, It can output a ton of damage from a fully defensive subroost set, or switch into resisted attacks 4-5 times with a fully offensive set (resisting water grass electric is more than enough to abuse for ample switch-ins). Basically, its base stats are far too high. Idk what else to say, its coverage is good enough but not amazing, its stabs synergize poorly but are extremely good individually, it's probably the least broken you could make a base 660 dragon... it's still a base 660 dragon though, and it just annihilates everything else with stats.

Spirit:

Kyurem: Ban

Having the liberty to run 6+ sets (Offensive SubRoost, Defensive SubRoost, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Mixed, Roost + 3 Attacks being the most prominent) with immense variation alongside each makes Kyurem absolutely ridiculous. Each set functions superbly and has a different array of checks and counters, which makes dealing with Kyurem far too arduous. If that wasn't enough, take a quick look at its base stats. Not only does it have incredible power, but exceptional bulk (allowing it to survive a SE Iron Head from freaking Escavalier of all things) and enough speed to accomplish what it needs to. Kyurem demands at least two strong checks for each team, and even if you do carry these Pokemon, it does not guarantee that your team will be unharmed simply because it has ways of bypassing every single countermeasure while still functioning superbly. It's one thing for a certain threat to motivate one to carry checks/counters for it; however, when your multiple answers to a certain threat can still lose (and rather easily, might I add), then that really is unacceptable. Simply put, Kyurem is a centralizing force that does everything far too well for its own good.

Atomicllamas:
Kyurem: Ban

This was the Pokemon that I was sure I was going to vote No Ban on, because although it is extremely powerful, I also felt it was extremely overhyped. And I honestly do think that the purely offensive sets are pretty overated, having a myriad of viable checks and counters, as well as being relatively easy to wear down. However, after using the Sub Roost set, I can say that Kyurem's combination of bulk, as well as offensive presence make the sub roost set ridiculous, especially since it can just sit in front of many would be counter and pressure stall them out. This becomes especially effective with a little bit of hazard support, as Kyurem is really good at forcing switches, and once behind a Substitute it is often "gg" because of its excellent (although redundant) STABs and the coverage provided by Earth Power. It also enjoys the fact that none of its common switch ins have a reliable recovery move, so Kyurem has a really easy time outlasting its few checks / counters if it has some hazard support, thanks to roost. Basically, its high bulk, high power, and reliable recovery make it to much for the RU tier as it stands right now.

Silentverse:
Kyurem: Ban

Somehow, even though it is a 660 BST Dragon, I feel this is the suspect that is probably the least broken out of all of these, but its still broken for sure. Kyurem's crushing strength and immense bulk make it extremely difficult to handle effectively, and Specs Draco Meteor's off Kyurem's Special Attack is something that basically nothing likes to take. It's also capable of stalling out a significant amount of things with its SubRoost set, taking advantage of its huge bulk and resistances to stay safe behind a Substitute and simply whittle things down until they faint. While it does have a nice amount of checks in Registeel, Bronzong, Cobalion, Escavalier, and Specially defensive bulky waters like Milotic, Assault Vest Slowking, and Jellicent, a well-played Kyurem can easily beat many of these checks, either through simply stalling them out with SubRoost (you can PP Stall Bronzong out of Gyro Ball, for example) or just hitting them with the appropriate move to wear them down. For these reasons, Kyurem is cancerous to RU and deserves to be quickbanned


Azelf: is banned, 6-1-1 in favor of ban

DTC:

Azelf: BAN

Unlike Sableye, it's hard to pinpoint that one really broken set on Azelf because it's such a versatile Pokemon. A Nasty Plot set OHKOs almost the entire tier once set up, and while it's frail, Azelf forces a lot of switches. Unlike many other setup sweepers, Azelf is more than capable of being effective before a boost, thanks to its 125 base Special Attack, amazing coverage, and 115 base Speed. Azelf has such an expansive movepool consisting of coverage moves such as Fire Blast / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Knock Off / Grass Knot, as well as an excellent 125 base Attack stat, that makes it hard to counterplay because it's hard to tell what moves it is running. A simple set of Nasty Plot / Psychic / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball is almost impossible to counter as is, but when you add a bunch of other moves to the table, and the fact that it outspeeds almost the entire unboosted tier, Azelf becomes that much more ridiculous.

Tsunami:
Azelf: BAN

Azelf can run a wide variety of sets ranging from Mixed to a Stealth Rock suicide lead. The suicide lead set can use Explosion to severely cripple the opposition, and getting up Stealth Rock with it is rather easy due to the great deal of switches Azelf usually forces. This aforementioned ability to force switches also makes it incredibly easy to set up a Nasty Plot. A +2 Azelf can OHKO most of the tier thanks to its superb coverage moves. 115 Base Speed ensures that Azelf won't be outrun by too many non-Scarfed threats, making it even more deadly. The aforementioned Mix set can also cause major problems for teams, and cripple them for the remainder of the game with Knock Off. Azelf's Psychic-typing also makes it resistant to Fighting-type moves, which are some of the most common priority attacks in the metagame, making it even more difficult to take out. It also has access to a Dual Screens set, which, while rarely seen, can be a force to be reckoned with on a SmashPass team. Azelf's versatility, raw power, great Speed, and ridiculous coverage make it too large of a threat to be dealt with properly in the RU metagame.

Hotncold:

Azelf: Ban

Well, I had a lot of doubts with Azelf at first thoughts because is just frail and weak to dark/ghost bluff but still is a extremely versatile pokemon with a lot of options: Nasty Plot, Choice Band, Suicide lead, Screens supporter, Mixed atacker or Utility with Stealth Rock + 3 atk; is just too unpredictable with the right moveset beats almost every threat in this tier - best way to handle this is with another offensive presence in the same level power something this tier lacks, Azelf with that speed base outrun every relevant threat in the tier except Sceptile and Dugtrio, not mention here Scarf mons which obviously have drawbacks using their choice item. Azelf is kinda the typical pokemon which dont need even a decent bulk, just with their offense presence is usually enough.

Molk:
Azelf: ban

Too much power, too much speed, too many options. Azelf comes packed with absolutely amazing dual base 125 mixed offenses as well as a movepool with not just good tools such as U-turn, Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, Explosion and Knock Off, but any coverage move it'll ever need, getting moves such as Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast, and more to run through the opposition, and even a great boosting move in Nasty Plot that lets it run right through defensive teams with ease and OHKO almost the entire tier after a boost, combine this with an amazing Speed stat of 115 that outruns pretty much the whole unboosted tier outside of say Sceptile, and you have quite a monster on your hands. In the end, i think this combination of power, speed, support options, and versatility is simply too much for the current RU tier to handle, and therefore Azelf should be banned.

Nails:

Azelf: No Ban, I expect it to be broken and I wouldn't be shocked if it's quickbanned but unlike the other two I don't think its power level is high enough to warrant a quickban. It's pretty easy to revenge kill, it has no bulk or recovery and I feel it's dealt with on paper at least by most tanky mons. I think mixed sets are pretty terrible, I don't think explosion is very strong since dpp, and Nasty Plot is pretty simple to revenge kill. I'm like 75/25 ban/no ban on Azelf but I think quickbans should be more certain than that. I might edit this to ban later though if I'm allowed to since it's rly close. But I could see a scenario post Sableye/Kyurem where it's not broked, which is enough atm.

Spirit:
Azelf: Abstain

This was the one I had the most difficulty deciding upon. On one hand, its stats and movepool make it an offensive behemoth; on the other hand, its general frailty, poor defensive synergy, and thus its lack of switch-in opportunities makes it difficult to utilize these traits to the fullest. The two sets that I think are worth discussing is the mixed set and the Nasty Plot set. I don't find the support sets to be all that game-breaking, setting up Stealth Rock and then Exploding or setting up dual screens and doing the latter isn't always going to be the precursor towards deciding a match. In terms of its influence on offensive teams (where all-out attacker sets are generally more effective), again, the frailty allows it to be taken out by moderately strong priority (Sucker Punch being the most common in this tier) whereas there are Pokemon--even on offense--that are capable of taking a hit and doing some serious damage back, such as Raikou and Druddigon. The Nasty Plot set finds most of its use against stall / slower teams, where admittedly, it's very destructive. There aren't that many full stall teams on the ladder though, most are semi-stall that have something that can revenge Azelf / force it out and thus keep it from sweeping their team. I just haven't faced very many stall teams on the ladder and even then, I didn't get much of a chance to really see Azelf's impact on them. As for slow, bulky offensive teams, trying to set up is pretty difficult without something like Memento Dugtrio support, and here's the thing that really annoys me with Azelf: if it can't KO the current target it's up against, it'll likely find itself the one taken out instead. I'm not denying that this Pokemon is potentially broken because with Sableye leaving (thus losing one more check) it's a definite outcome, but at this point, I can't say that it's quick-ban worthy nor can I confidently say that it's just fine.

atomicllamas:
Azelf: Ban

Azelf is blessed with what is quite possibly the best offensive move pool in all of Pokemon (barring mew), and has base 125 offenses, and a base 115 speed to back this move pool up. Due to its offensive versatility, it is pretty much uncounterable in RU, and unless you have god-like prediction skills, you will be sacking at least one Pokemon to Azelf. Between Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Nasty Plot, Suicide Lead, and an Offensive Dual Screens set, Azelf is capable of luring in and disposing of whatever Pokemon a teammate needs removed or weakened, in order to sweep, or efficiently sweeping by itself. Most of the arguments for the retention of Azelf in RU (that I have seen), like to point to its "frailty" as a reason that Azelf is not to much for the tier, but all of these "checks" are unable to switch into Azelf, meaning Azelf has already killed a Pokemon on your team. I'd also like to point out that 75 / 70 / 70 bulk isn't even that bad, and can easily set up on defensive mons without a SE STAB move, its bulk is comparable to Toxicroak's and even Sableye's, which while it is nothing to write home about, isn't necessarily bad. All in all, Azelf's stats and move pool create an extremely versatile Pokemon, that pretty much always puts the Azelf user in an advantageous position due to the mind games it creates for the opponent (especially with U-turn vs Nasty Plot factored in).

Silentverse:
Azelf: Ban

This is a dumb. Imagine if Magic Guard-less Alakazam was RU, except if it had Nasty Plot, way better coverage moves, an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and the ability to go mixed with strong coverage in U-turn and Knock Off. Ok, that's not really like Alakazam at all, but you get the gist of what I am trying to say (I hope). Essentially, Azelf is an extremely fast and diverse threat whose different sets each has a very limited set of counters, and due to how strong it is, guessing wrong is just so punishing for the player who has the misfortune of having to deal with this thing. After a Nasty Plot, Azelf literally OHKOes virtually everything in the tier, and its Speed is fast enough to make revenge killing a chore, especially as right now, RU lacks a lot of good scarfers, and the few Pokemon that can take a hit after a Nasty Plot (Assault Vest Slowking, specially defensive Spiritomb and Skuntank I guess?) get worn down by CB / LO Knock Offs / U-turns very quickly, making them shaky initial switch-ins. Playing against Azelf is a guessing game that is almost always in the favor of the person using the Azelf, and for this reason, Azelf needs to be quickbanned.


TL;DR RIP
 

EonX

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Tbh, none of those are surprising. Kyurem and Sableye were blatantly obvious while Azelf was probably the most controversial of the 3, yet still broken for the most part. Without focusing on them, who are the biggest beneficiaries of these bans imo? Let's take a look:

Druddigon: With Kyurem gone, Druddigon can go back to being the premier Dragon in the tier. It also loses a defensive counter in Sableye, so Druddigon's pretty happy right now. AV, Choice Band, SR, SpDef, Life Orb. Lots of options.

Delphox: No Azelf means Delphox is going to get a lot more common. Seemingly the "next best thing" when it comes to a hard hitting Psychic-type with solid coverage and a boosting move. Not as fast, as strong, or as good of a movepool as Azelf, but it can certainly cause serious problems.

Gallade: This may not be the first to spring to mind, but it just got granted a ton of freedom. It no longer has to worry about picking between AV to survive Kyurem or Sub to deal with Sableye. It can run both freely depending on what a team needs it to do, rather than having to pick one to help it avoid being crushed by something. Great versatility with Sub, SD, Bulky SD, SubBU, and AV. It also lost Azelf as a solid check, so no more need for Shadow Suck.

Shaymin: Losing two offensive checks never hurt anybody. Shaymin doesn't have to worry about Kyurem coming in on Seed Flare or Azelf coming in on a predicted coverage move. It can fill the void as a solid special attacker that both leave and it has recovery as well, just like Kyurem. To say this thing will become more annoying to face will be an understatement.

Escavalier: As Shaymin rises, so does Escavalier. One of the very few reliable switch-ins to Shaymin, Escavalier also lost a counter in Sableye and check in Azelf. AV sets are insanely hard to kill and CB just flat out mauls stuff. Don't be shocked if this thing becomes the next quick suspect.

Sliggoo: This is gonna sound odd as hell, but here me out on this. While it may sound like a joke, its special bulk is anything but a joke. With Kyurem gone, Grass-types got a ton more viable and Sliggoo can stop about every single one of them thanks to Sap Sipper. Sliggoo also benefits from not having Azelf around since it could carry Psyshock to get around Sliggoo. RestTalk isn't very reliable, but when you're avoiding 3HKOs from LO Moltres's Hurricanes for fuck's sake, you can burn sleep turns on a lot of shit.

I'm sure there's some others out there, but these are just some that quickly came to mind.
 
I think Dugtrio's usage will decline after these bans. People used it for Azelf and Kyurem (Sash + Reversal) despite his paper thin defenses and subpar Attack (base 81 iirc). You can use him to trap stuff like Coballion and grounded Fire types like Delphox and Emboar though.
 

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I think Dugtrio's usage will decline after these bans. People used it for Azelf and Kyurem (Sash + Reversal) despite his paper thin defenses and subpar Attack (base 81 iirc). You can use him to trap stuff like Coballion and grounded Fire types like Delphox and Emboar though.
Idk if Dugtrio will drop much at all tbh. If anything it might rise because of the fact Tornadus-I will likely rise to take over Azelf's role as a mixed attacker. Tornadus is usually held down by Steel- and Rock-types as well as Raikou and Eelektross. Aside from Eelektross, Dugtrio is able to trap and remove them via Earthquake if they are weakened enough (or in some cases, just outright too frail to endure an EQ in the first place)
 
Idk if Dugtrio will drop much at all tbh. If anything it might rise because of the fact Tornadus-I will likely rise to take over Azelf's role as a mixed attacker. Tornadus is usually held down by Steel- and Rock-types as well as Raikou and Eelektross. Aside from Eelektross, Dugtrio is able to trap and remove them via Earthquake if they are weakened enough (or in some cases, just outright too frail to endure an EQ in the first place)
I guess. Stone Edge has a pretty high chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock if Jolly and guaranteed OHKO with Adamant. Only problem with Adamant is that stuff like +Speed Torn and Raikou outpace you. I did forget about Raikou and I'd throw in Coballion as well I guess.
 
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