Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Over Zealous]

One thing I'd like to add: if we end up nerfing bp, it should be something definite and permanent. Whatever we decide for bp should last. So I don't think banning specific pokemon or abilities is a good idea, bacause bp can get boosted again by the introduction of new pokemon, abilities or moves in the next gen, which would create the need for this debate all over again. For example, we ban scolipede and then gen 7 introduces a new pokemon with speed boost who is as good as scolipede. No, if bp is gonna be nerfed, it better be nerfed for good, in a way it cannot go back naturally in future gens. Because frankly, I doubt anyone here wants to have this thread again in the future.

So I believe the most fair nerf would be to limit the number of bp pokemon. Since I'm against removing bp teams from the game, I feel like a number like 4 would be ideal, though that's mostly a guess. With a lower number of pokemon with bp, it doesn't matter if bp gets new tools, since it would still me limited by the pokemon cap so it'd have to choose between those tools.

Then again, I'd rather let bp teams remain untouched, but I've already repeated my points on that to exhaustion in the last few days,so I wont do it again.

Your conjecture is convoluted and ambivalent. At least you finally agree there's a parasite within the Baton Pass archetype that's affecting the metagame. That problem is primarily named Scolipede.
Then we ban the imaginary 7th Gen Speed Booster if it fills Scolipede's role in an even more optimal way.

Limiting the number of Passers in a team is not only unnecessarily complex, but suboptimal. It does in fact matter if Baton Pass gets new tools: we address them as they come. If some Pokemon releases that fills Scolipede's exact role but better, it'll be unbalanced and detrimental to the development of the metagame with 3 Passers, 4, or 6.

 

[Toljik]

"Viable" is different from "fair". Swagplay was viable. It was also uncompetitive. I'm taking what you termed "viable" as "fair and competitive to use i n the metagame". I'm of the opinion that Baton Pass Chains (including defensive Baton Pass Chains, which i assume only pass defensive boosts?) are uncompetitive and therefore should be taken out of the metagame.

Are you really saying that Baton Pass teams are a coin flip on par with Swagger, Funbro and evasion? Because that's the only definition of "uncompetitive" I know of. Whether it's overpowered is another matter, but Baton Pass by itself is no more unfair than U-turn.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

...show me where Defensive Baton Pass has been viable. I'd like to see this in action before it gets any label.

Also, show me where limiting Baton Pass to two users severely restricts the playstyle enough where Baton Pass falls.

I want to see replays, evidence that such a restriction will destroy Baton Pass.

I used Defensive Baton Pass in BW OU to a high degree of success. So much so that the team gained popularity, Perish Song on Politoed became common and Ninjask usage became almost OU. Google search, Baton Pass My A$$, you'll find the RMT easy.

There are three styles of Baton Pass:
1. Quick Pass - Most known by Shell Smash in Gen 5.
2. Chain Pass - Famous in D/P with Lucario/Metagross sweepers
3. Defensive Pass - Famous in BW and XY, only really became viable with Espeons Magic Bounce.

Chain pass requires 5 Baton Passers, Defensive requires all 6. Cutting down the number of Baton Passers to 3 essentially eliminates the two most viable styles of Baton Pass. I am trying to prevent this by introducing conditional bans based on number of pokemon so that users can still play defensive and chain teams.

As for your asking of evidence, it doesn't really make sense. I'm not saying it will destroy Baton Pass, I'm saying it will eliminate two of the three play styles of Baton Pass. Which is just a fact by analyzing the play styles (Defensive Baton Pass is simply characterized by having all 6 Baton Passers and no standard sweeper like in Chain).

 

[Over Zealous]

When people bring up counters, how come they never mention shedinja? It's the definitive BP counter, since it's immune to every BP team attacking move in stored power, hyper voice, scald and thunderbolt. It can swords dance up to +6 and then fire off powerful x-scizors and shadow claws which also has a high crit rate to help bypass defensive boosts. And shedinja is not dead weight against other teams since wonder guard is the best ability in the game and like ditto, shedinja is always usable in any tier because of that ability. Shedinja used to be ranked in ou but was removed because somebody made a silly suggestion to delist it, but it hard walls many things in the meta, can spread burns and keep up momentum with baton pass. It's infinitely better than haze murkrow in almost every way.

Because listing Shedinja, or Haze Murkrow or even Quagsire is useless on this thread. Shedinja first isn't a counter: Baton Pass chains run coverage, and will hit Shedinja. Even if Shedinja was the greatest counter to Baton Pass known to man, are you expecting players to hinder their team by including Shedinja just for Baton Pass, and have him as a wasted slot against every other team? He can't even switch into the omnipresent Stealth Rocks, dies to common Sandstream via Tyranitar, and is hit by common attack types like Dark (nuclear Knock Off), Flying spam, etc.

Everyone, please give up listing "counters".

 

[Andrew]

Your conjecture is convoluted and ambivalent. At least you finally agree there's a parasite within the Baton Pass archetype that's affecting the metagame. That problem is primarily named Scolipede.
Then we ban the imaginary 7th Gen Speed Booster if it fills Scolipede's role in an even more optimal way.

Limiting the number of Passers in a team is not only unnecessarily complex, but suboptimal. It does in fact matter if Baton Pass gets new tools: we address them as they come. If some Pokemon releases that fills Scolipede's exact role but better, it'll be unbalanced and detrimental to the development of the metagame with 3 Passers, 4, or 6.

I've been testing teams without Scolipede, and really it's not that hard, especially against slower defensive teams. It's easy to get an agility boost from zapdos, and sometimes u dont even really need it if u play ur cards right. Scolipede is excellent in the chain but I don't think removing him will make baton pass chains that much more manageable. removing magic bounce, however, makes the team much more susceptible to common taunts, roars, whirlwinds etc, and puts a lot of pressure on the other members to either get ingrain or try to immediately take the taunt user out, which is hard especially if they come in b4 u have too many boosts.

Limiting to 2-4 members also puts a lot of pressure on the individual members, altho this kind of team can still be pretty succesfull if u pass boosts to a powerful reciepient with good coverage such as m-gardy or victini or whoever else u can think of. Limiting to 3 members keeps the core of Scoli-Espeon-Smeargle, and this is enough to accumualte boosts and pass to final recepients.

At this point im thinking It's either removing Magic bounce from the equation or limiting the number of users somehow, more testing and replays and evidence need to be shown, which I will provide when I break 1760 ELO (which Haunter said should be the cutoff for showing replays) , which Im farily close to atm - 1707

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Because listing Shedinja, or Haze Murkrow or even Quagsire is useless on this thread. Shedinja first isn't a counter: Baton Pass chains run coverage, and will hit Shedinja. Even if Shedinja was the greatest counter to Baton Pass known to man, are you expecting players to hinder their team by including Shedinja just for Baton Pass, and have him as a wasted slot against every other team? He can't even switch into the omnipresent Stealth Rocks, dies to common Sandstream via Tyranitar, and is hit by common attack types like Dark (nuclear Knock Off), Flying spam, etc.

Everyone, please give up listing "counters".

Well I'm afraid you're wrong there. Shedinja is generally a full stop to any common Baton Pass team. Sylveon can't hit it, and neither can Vaporeon, Scizor, Espeon, Zapdos, Mr. Mime or anything else on BP teams. It's not "useless" either against any other team. Not every team runs Hippo/T-tar, and hazards are relatively easy to remove with Defog. Meanwhile Shedinja can switch in on stuff like Keldeo, Thundurus, Azumarill, Latios etc.

Or if Shedinja is too niche for your liking, you can run a more powerful check to Baton Pass like Thundurus or Mega Pinsir. Just to let you know there's options out there that are perfectly viable.

 

[Over Zealous]

I've been testing teams without Scolipede, and really it's not that hard, especially against slower defensive teams. It's easy to get an agility boost from zapdos, and sometimes u dont even really need it if u play ur cards right. Scolipede is excellent in the chain but I don't think removing him will make baton pass chains that much more manageable. removing magic bounce, however, makes the team much more susceptible to common taunts, roars, whirlwinds etc, and puts a lot of pressure on the other members to either get ingrain or try to immediately take the taunt user out, which is hard especially if they come in b4 u have too many boosts.

Limiting to 2-4 members also puts a lot of pressure on the individual members, altho this kind of team can still be pretty succesfull if u pass boosts to a powerful reciepient with good coverage such as m-gardy or victini or whoever else u can think of. Limiting to 3 members keeps the core of Scoli-Espeon-Smeargle, and this is enough to accumualte boosts and pass to final recepients.

At this point im thinking It's either removing Magic bounce from the equation or limiting the number of users somehow, more testing and replays and evidence need to be shown, which I will provide when I break 1760 ELO (which Haunter said should be the cutoff for showing replays) , which Im farily close to atm - 1707

Acquiring Speed is significantly more difficult without Speed Boost Scolipede (which achieves it trivially, and oftentimes freely), and Zapdos or other boosters are not able to boost several stats simultaneously. Without Scolipede, players may apply offensive pressure, and Baton Pass users must play much more strategically, without autonomous Speed Boost + Iron Defense Sub-Stall.

Banning Magic Bounce doesn't solve the problem: it just puts an emphasis on Ingrain Smeargle.

 

[Waltz01]

Are you really saying that Baton Pass teams are a coin flip on par with Swagger, Funbro and evasion?

No I'm saying it's worse than those because you need a specialized counter to beat it and a very small number of teams pack those counters. At least with Swagger you have a 50/50 shot of breaking through, if you don't have a counter to BP you have maybe a 5% chance of getting the "right" crit to beat it. "Oh no adapt use a counter like Shedninja!!!" is going to be the next three posts, but it's been fully shown "counters" weaken a team against non-BP teams.

 

[Over Zealous]

Well I'm afraid you're wrong there. Shedinja is generally a full stop to any common Baton Pass team. Sylveon can't hit it, and neither can Vaporeon, Scizor, Espeon, Zapdos, Mr. Mime or anything else on BP teams. It's not "useless" either against any other team. Not every team runs Hippo/T-tar, and hazards are relatively easy to remove with Defog. Meanwhile Shedinja can switch in on stuff like Keldeo, Thundurus, Azumarill, Latios etc.

Or if Shedinja is too niche for your liking, you can run a more powerful check to Baton Pass like Thundurus or Mega Pinsir. Just to let you know there's options out there that are perfectly viable.

Please refer to Shedinja's statistical and practical uses in OU - it's quite narrow and limited, niche and gimmick based. Shedinja cannot switch in to counter anything unless you spend 2 turns removing Rocks with a Defogger (assuming it's even alive). While every team doesn't consist of Tyranitar, he is still common in OU. Read this over and over: mentioning obscure and gimmick 'counters' doesn't solve the problem, it doesn't heal the metagame, and it serves no purpose to this thread.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Please refer to Shedinja's statistical and practical uses in OU - it's quite narrow and limited, niche and gimmick based. Shedinja cannot switch in to counter anything unless you spend 2 turns removing Rocks with a Defogger (assuming it's even alive). While every team doesn't consist of Tyranitar, he is still common in OU. Read this over and over: mentioning obscure and gimmick 'counters' doesn't solve the problem, it doesn't heal the metagame, and it serves no purpose to this thread.

It wasn't me who brought up Shedinja. I was just correcting the faults in your argument, since most players will agree that Baton Pass has nothing for Shedinja (despite you stating otherwise).

With that out of the way, you can tell me what's wrong with Thundurus and Mega Pinsir. :)

 

[Over Zealous]

It wasn't me who brought up Shedinja. I was just correcting the faults in your argument, since most players will agree that Baton Pass has nothing for Shedinja (despite you stating otherwise).

With that out of the way, you can tell me what's wrong with Thundurus and Mega Pinsir. :)

You're correcting nothing, just uselessly arguing Shedinja as a 'counter'. He has limited function and viability in OU on account of common Stealth Rocks, Sandstream, status like poison, etc. It's not a practical counter, and listing gimmick counters serves nothing on this thread.

And yes, Shedinja falls to Baton Pass chains coverage, Hidden Power, even Heatwave Zapdos, etc.

Let me educate you on the concept of a counter: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Shedinja doesn't stop Baton Pass chains.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You're correcting nothing, just uselessly arguing Shedinja as a 'counter'. He has limited function and viability in OU on account of common Stealth Rocks, Sandstream, status like poison, etc. It's not a practical counter, and listing gimmick counters serves nothing on this thread.

And yes, Shedinja falls to Baton Pass chains coverage, Hidden Power, even Heatwave Zapdos, etc.

I agree with you that Shedinja is not the most practical counter, but it's one nonetheless. I'm not sure what Hidden Powers you are talking about, Espeon will be using HP Fighting at most, the other members don't have room for something like HP Fire (can't even think if you'd ever use anything else, maybe HP Dark/Rock? Lol o.O ) Zapdos will be using HP Ice at most, it already has to use BP, Roost and Thunderbolt. It won't ever run Heat Wave.

Enough about Shedinja though, tell me more about Thundurus and Mega Pinsir as I'm sure you have many complaints about those too.

 

[Over Zealous]

I agree with you that Shedinja is not the most practical counter, but it's one nonetheless. I'm not sure what Hidden Powers you are talking about, Espeon will be using HP Fighting at most, the other members don't have room for something like HP Fire (can't even think if you'd ever use anything else, maybe HP Dark/Rock? Lol o.O ) Zapdos will be using HP Ice at most, it already has to use BP, Roost and Thunderbolt. It won't ever run Heat Wave.

Enough about Shedinja though, tell me more about Thundurus and Mega Pinsir as I'm sure you have many complaints about those too.

Read the definition of a counter, please. Shedinja does not stop Baton Pass chains, and falls to coverage. Espeon, while commonly running HP Fighting, might also run HP Fire, while Shadow Ball is quite common. Gliscor can simply poison it or Taunt it, or even Rock Slide in some cases. Likewise, Mew can Taunt or poison it, and a slew of Baton Pass recipients can slay Shedinja with no effort.

Shedinja must 1, be able to stop Baton Pass chains, and 2, defeat it. By nature of Baton Pass chains, no 1 single 'counter' is good enough. It's 1vs6, and the chain has switch initiative.

Again, even if he can wall certain Baton Pass teams, he is impractical. Shedinja has no relevancy on this thread, nor do his gimmick brethren.

And I'm not really sure of your obsession with Mega Pinsir and Thundurus. Checks to Baton Pass chains, but Thundurus can't taunt Magic Bounce, and not every player runs (or should be forced) to run Mega Pinsir on account of Flying-spam. These checks do not cure the metagame, nor balance the Baton Pass archetype.

 

[Quick]

Enough about Shedinja though, tell me more about Thundurus and Mega Pinsir as I'm sure you have many complaints about those too.

Thundurus and Mega Pinsir at best check baton pass. Espeon can easily set up in Thundurus's face and its presence on the team means that you can't taunt without the worry of it being bounced back, setting you back more turns and giving them more time to set up.

Mega Pinsir is easily killed by a lot of things on baton pass, not to mention the fact that it can be slept by Smeargle.

 

[Banded Blissey]

imo we should just do this
Ban ingrain, magic bounce, and speed boost, in any combination. The culprits of BP are Espeon, and Scolipede. By taking away their abilities, we make baton pass MUCH less threatening, and the ingrain ban means they can be phazed. This mean we open up a whole range of viable chainbreakers now, as we don't have magic bounce to worry about. BP will still be viable, just not broken.

 

[Toljik]

No I'm saying it's worse than those because you need a specialized counter to beat it and a very small number of teams pack those counters. At least with Swagger you have a 50/50 shot of breaking through, if you don't have a counter to BP you have maybe a 5% chance of getting the "right" crit to beat it. "Oh no adapt use a counter like Shedninja!!!" is going to be the next three posts, but it's been fully shown "counters" weaken a team against non-BP teams.

The reason why (Prankster) Swagger was called uncompetitive was that (barring a handful of Pokemon) it was dependent on luck, taking most of the skill out of competitive play. As powerful as Baton Pass teams are, it's insulting to Baton Pass players to say that their teams are inherently uncompetitive/unfair. Baton Pass teams are only broken when a skilled player uses them.

Hello, you must be new to the thread. Direct yourself to the consensus and arguments of the thread: Scolipede introduces a state of autonomy, which is deemed uncompetitive, due to the nature of Speed Boost.

You can argue personally for Scolipede's ban (and I even agree with you), but the only consensus in this thread is that Baton Pass teams are extremely powerful. Not that consensus matters much here.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

imo we should just do this
Ban ingrain, magic bounce, and speed boost, in any combination. The culprits of BP are Espeon, and Scolipede. By taking away their abilities, we make baton pass MUCH less threatening, and the ingrain ban means they can be phazed. This mean we open up a whole range of viable chainbreakers now, as we don't have magic bounce to worry about. BP will still be viable, just not broken.

I agree. But a single scolipede is allowed to speed boost baton pass right? Lets ban these thing based on number of passers. Otherwise Espeon and Ninjask and Scolipede get hurt. They aren't the problem, its the combination that sucks

 

[TheWhiteRose]

First off, I don't think we should be discussing about specific pokemons that counter baton pass teams. Even if you could find one, baton pass would still be worthy of a ban because then every team would need that specific counter and this would mean baton pass's influence on the meta game is too strong for versatility.
However, I don't think baton should be banned. Baton pass + magic guard is the problem. Baton pass by itself is relatively easy to deal with (ie. Perish song, roar, whirlwind, etc.) but with magic guard, only perish song can reliably counter it. Baton pass by itself, in my opinion, is similar to setting up. If you give then a chance, you'll pay for it. There's nothing wrong with that and I think that's part of the current OU metagame. But when you need to refer to very specific counters, that's when baton pass becomes too influential to the point where people had to plan their teams around it (think keldeo ban in Gen 5).
Hence, I think baton pass isn't too hard to deal with. Its baton pass and magic guard which screws the metagame.

 

[Immortal]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

• I think it is a problem. In my opinion baton pass teams do not take a lot of skill and seem to have an answer for everything. Phazing them is very difficult and even if you do manage to phase something out, they can occasionally start over. Scolipede alone has access to both swords dance and iron defense which allow it to boost attack or defense by two stages while its speed increases by one stage per turn along with of course the ability to protect or sub to gain additional boosts. It even has a decent base 90 attack stat so it can actually be a threat itself. Espeon is basically impossible to phaze and has acess to stored power. already bulky pokemon like vaporeon can add acid armour boosts to go along with the other boosts. Sylveon is a pain because its immunity to dragon and has access to wish, calm mind, moonblast and of course BP. In summary I think that baton pass teams are uncompetetive because i do not think they take along of skill to use, make players rely on crits (lame) and wellbuilt ones might just be broken overall.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

• I think the elements that are pushing it over the edge are speed boost plus other boosting moves like swords dance, iron defense, acid armor. Combine that with substitute and magic bounce is there really isnt much you can do to stop these teams.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

• I think banning either espeon or scolipede would definitely make it more manageable. Although scolipede is the best legal speed booster available, there are others available. Xatu is an alternate magic bounce user although espeon is much better.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

• I would prefer a blanket ban on baton pass to doing nothing but I think a complex ban might be the better option.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I would be okay with banning the use of scolipede and espeon on the same team. One more thing i thought of was the outright banning of speed boost. Without speed boost it would be much more difficult for BP teams to sweep. I'm not sure if this would have the desired effect however it would allow scolipede to still be used (although likely in NU) and would even allow blaze blaziken to leave ubers. A complex ban that just prevents having more than one BP user on a team could have a limiting effect on full BP teams while still allowing players to have to ability to pass along some boosts, subs or just to escape pursuit.

 

[geckojsc]

I'd like to echo what some others have said. Baton pass is a really awesome mechanic, and banning it would subtract a huge number of possibilities from the game.
I'm also not in favour of a hard limit on the number of baton pass users, given that the problem here is a few specific pokemon/abilites when used in combination with each other (or at least I think everyone agrees that's the problem), creating a situation that is near impenetrable unless you happen to have an obscure counter on your team.
What I'm trying to say is, just because a team consists of 5 or 6 baton passers shouldn't make it automatically invalid. Say that team contains magic bounce in conjunction with speed boost, soundproof or some other combination that is deemed unfair, maybe then you can start imposing restrictions on the number of baton passers, but the ban has to involve the specific pokemon or abilities that caused the problem.

I also think approaching it the other way (banning pokes/abilities based on the number of baton passers in the team) as Hiphiphooray just suggested, is a very neat solution, possibly the one that has the least impact on ordinary usage of baton pass throughout a fair and balanced team.

 

[Quick]

Hydreigon isn't breaking chansey, even with a life orb superpower, and has an INCREDIBLE amount of offensive checks.
Same goes for excadrill, it has plenty of counters. Where did you get the idea excadrill was all mighty or something?
Machamp is just annoying with confusion, but something like a sableye can easily stop it in its tracks.

And when the metagame is forced to run obscure NU shitmons that have no use outside of annoying a "rarely seen and unreliable playstyle" (where the hell did unreliable come from? Baton Pass is the most consistent playstyle there is) then yes, we will whine and refuse to adapt.



Haze quagsire is completely stupid (and doesn't even counter baton pass).

Haze Quagsire at best checks most Baton Pass teams, agreed. He isn't eating Hyper voices from Sylveon or any stab hits from espeon even with unaware.

Fact remains that he is the only anti- baton pass mon that can actually be useful in normal games too.

 

[Irv]

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Yes, and no. While some teams carry phasers, many do not, nor do they have room to include one. In the event that a phaser is carried, there's no guarantee that it will survive long enough to do said phasing. Taunt also isn't exactly a relevant answer, since Scolipede will outspeed everything in the entire universe and BP before the taunt. .. And then we'll see massive outpourings of Sableye coming out of your bootyhole.

If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Magic Bounce is definitely the biggest thing. HOW CAN I PHASE IF I END UP PHASING MYSELF OH MY LORD ASLGHLSDBGNSDG

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
No. It's not the Pokemon themselves that make BP broken. It's just the stupid strategy.

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Yes. A million times yes. Eliminate the move, eliminate the problem. Done. No more room for discussion.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Not really. It's unnecessary. Just get rid of the move. It's a lot less work, and it'll yield better results. Boom. Done.

 

[TheJFrenzy1]

I don't really think there is a reliable way to ban the baton pass team layout, whatever you want to call this. You might suggest banning Scolipede/Ninjask, which would be dumb as they are not broken by themselves. You could try the approach of banning Pokemon X + Pokemon Y on the same team but complex bans are tricky and most likely won't fix the problem as there are plenty of Baton Pass users out there and not every pokemon you see on a Baton Pass team, always uses it for BP set up chains; i.e. Espeon. If you really were going to even consider banning something I'd go for banning the Baton Pass sets on pokemon that make it effective with the exception of Espeon as Espeon needs Baton Pass to escape Pursuit Trappers.

 

[Toljik]

I don't really think there is a reliable way to ban the baton pass team layout, whatever you want to call this. You might suggest banning Scolipede/Ninjask, which would be dumb as they are not broken by themselves. You could try the approach of banning Pokemon X + Pokemon Y on the same team but complex bans are tricky and most likely won't fix the problem as there are plenty of Baton Pass users out there and not every pokemon you see on a Baton Pass team, always uses it for BP set up chains; i.e. Espeon. If you really were going to even consider banning something I'd go for banning the Baton Pass sets on pokemon that make it effective with the exception of Espeon as Espeon needs Baton Pass to escape Pursuit Trappers.

You could say the same thing about Excadrill in Gen 5, though - it was only truly broken alongside sand. But it was Excadrill who was banned, not Sand Rush + Sand Stream.

 

[Rhaegar]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but Scope Lense + Super Luck Absol is a solid counter to defense boost with 100% crit on Stone Edge, Night Slash, and Psycho Cut. Also immune to Stored Power and more viable in general games compared to the counters mentioned thus far.