Uhh, what? How does it remind you of Lucario? Completely different typing, no NP or SD, not nearly as good coverage or bulk etc. Just what ._.
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Pokémon Volcanion
- Thread starter Delibird is Amazing
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I just used the usage set for Mzard Y on the damage calculator, which only has As and Solarbeam. I agree HP electric is an odd choice; I just put it in because it was the only electric special attack Char learns and I wanted a Super Effective attack justt to check.
I forgot about Earthquake though, in my mind that is more of a char X move, but if Char is carrying Earthquake theb it comes down to prediction I guess.
So not a full counter but a check maybe?
I forgot about Earthquake though, in my mind that is more of a char X move, but if Char is carrying Earthquake theb it comes down to prediction I guess.
So not a full counter but a check maybe?
The resistances 4x to rock and dark in gen 4 it is offensive so was Luke it has a bit of 4mss same as Luke
Volcanion is 2x weak to Rock, wouldn't have resisted Dark in any generation, and is a specially-offensive tank, whereas Lucario is a frail mixed attacker. The only thing these Pokemon have in common is that they're Pokemon....
Irrelevant considering:
0 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 556-660 (161.6 - 191.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 584-690 (192.1 - 226.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 187-221 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And nobody runs Air Slash, so that is irrelevant:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 72-85 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Or CS:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 390-458 (101 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Seriously, you can't just slap Assault Vest on anything and call it a day, it doesn't work like that.
You really need to consider base power when choosing moves. Super Effective HP Electric does the exact same damage to Volcanion as neutral Solarbeam, which virtually all CharY carry. I can't do calcs now but CharY could likely need a lot of investment to 2HKO a bulky Volcanion without Stealth Rock with Earthquake, and any Volcanion has the option of Stone Edge to outright kill CharY switching in. Although it doesn't need it, as Specs Steam Eruption can manage a OHKO even without rocks if it's Timid, and if it chooses Naive it has a terrific 87.5% chance to OHKO.
EDIT:
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 128-152 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 111-131 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So while Earthquake is still a decent move on CharY for Heatran, Solarbeam still does more damage than Earthquake with a neutral nature, and even if Volcanion runs Assault Vest they are both still 3HKOs anyway.
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It might, but the calc I just posted with zero attack gives a max of 44 to min of 37. I imagine it might not be much, but it would seem more likely on a set running an emphasis on damage more so than speed. Like modest I guess or so, idk.
EDIT: Scratch that, ya posted calcs. Still not bad, but interesting to ponder. Ignore then.
Very interesting. I just don't know why they made these 3 legends really slow...
I'm not gonna lie, I sorta like it. Was getting a little sick of all the fast mons and am happy to see some slow ones that pack a bunch. Course that might just be me.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Currently the highest ranked pokemon with a water immunity is Vaporeon under C+ rank.
Toxicroak is C rank but Dry Skin makes it weak to fire so it's out, then we have Jellicent in D rank and that's it.
Gastrodon isn't even ranked right now.
Could Volcanion be reason enough to have these three pokemon skyrocket in usage and viability?
Vaporeon should be able to avoid a 2HKO from anything Volcanion could throw at it, but without Toxic it can't do anything back, and that's assuming Volcanion doesn't have Substitute.
Toxicroak is C rank but Dry Skin makes it weak to fire so it's out, then we have Jellicent in D rank and that's it.
Gastrodon isn't even ranked right now.
Could Volcanion be reason enough to have these three pokemon skyrocket in usage and viability?
Vaporeon should be able to avoid a 2HKO from anything Volcanion could throw at it, but without Toxic it can't do anything back, and that's assuming Volcanion doesn't have Substitute.
Depends, does the immunity to water attacks also negates the burn chance of Steam Eruption/Scald? If it does then they may increase in usage, but I don't think so. Jellicent is still weak to Dark, Ghost and Electric attacks and AFAIK they are the premier attacking types right now. Not sure about Gastrodon, I don't see any move in Volcanion's learnset that can do much to the sea slug besides Solarbeam (OHKO) or HP Grass (2HKO with SR) and I don't think any volcanion set will be carrying them, well maybe Solarbeam in a weird Sun team, but I don't really see it.
Gastrodon on the other hand can 2HKO Volcanion with Earth Power (or OHKO if Gastrodon gets a storm drain boost), so it could sort of works as a check?
Edit: Scratch my calcs, I forgot to add in EVs in Volcanion's case.
Gastrodon on the other hand can 2HKO Volcanion with Earth Power (or OHKO if Gastrodon gets a storm drain boost), so it could sort of works as a check?
Edit: Scratch my calcs, I forgot to add in EVs in Volcanion's case.
Interestingly Volcanion is one of the best switches to Volcanion itself, immune to Steam Eruption (couldn't be burned anyway), and 4x resistant to Fire. It can carry EdgeQuake of course, so its possible to see standard Volcanion and anti-Volcanion Volcanion sets. :p
Latios is a terrific check, leaning counter, to Volcanion. It resists both STABs, doesn't mind burn too much, and is immune to Earthquake, and it can pack Thunderbolt for such a purpose, which is not a bad idea since it's also good for Azumaril and Charizard Y.
Toxic is a very deadly status for Volcanion. A specially defensive Mandibuzz can easily Toxic stall a Volcanion, with Roost removing its Rock weakness if it chooses Stone Edge. Same with Chansey, who should be able to Toxic stall most Volcanion successfully.
While they can't switch in, Thundurus, Mega Manectric and Zapdos have no trouble with their strong special Electric attacks thanks to their speed, and Choice Specs Rotom-W can OHKO with Thunderbolt, or Volt Switch with Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Goodra: 123-144 (32 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Volcanion Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 93-111 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Goodra outright counters Volcanion and 2HKOs with Modest Thunderbolt, unless you run Assault Vest, and there's the potential of Hydration to alleviate Burn.
Manaphy can Tail Glow in the face of most Volcanion, and +3 Life Orb Energy Ball is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
You don't need something to absorb Water to handle Volcanion. Bulky Dragons and Water types are the way to go with Cleric support. He's also forced out very easily by numerous faster STAB Earthquake and Thunderbolt users.
Latios is a terrific check, leaning counter, to Volcanion. It resists both STABs, doesn't mind burn too much, and is immune to Earthquake, and it can pack Thunderbolt for such a purpose, which is not a bad idea since it's also good for Azumaril and Charizard Y.
Toxic is a very deadly status for Volcanion. A specially defensive Mandibuzz can easily Toxic stall a Volcanion, with Roost removing its Rock weakness if it chooses Stone Edge. Same with Chansey, who should be able to Toxic stall most Volcanion successfully.
While they can't switch in, Thundurus, Mega Manectric and Zapdos have no trouble with their strong special Electric attacks thanks to their speed, and Choice Specs Rotom-W can OHKO with Thunderbolt, or Volt Switch with Stealth Rock.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Goodra: 123-144 (32 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Volcanion Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 93-111 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Goodra outright counters Volcanion and 2HKOs with Modest Thunderbolt, unless you run Assault Vest, and there's the potential of Hydration to alleviate Burn.
Manaphy can Tail Glow in the face of most Volcanion, and +3 Life Orb Energy Ball is a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
You don't need something to absorb Water to handle Volcanion. Bulky Dragons and Water types are the way to go with Cleric support. He's also forced out very easily by numerous faster STAB Earthquake and Thunderbolt users.
Sludge Bomb but not T-Bolt, Discharge, or even Ice Beam? He doesn't even get Ancient Power....
I hope Freeze Dry becomes a Move Tutor move and Volcanion gets it because Special Attacking Dragons can easily switch into him.
Latios and Latias are just Free Switch ins for Volcanion.
Not to mention any water type that doesn't mind a burn can easily switch into Volcanion; Rotom-W being the best.
I hope Freeze Dry becomes a Move Tutor move and Volcanion gets it because Special Attacking Dragons can easily switch into him.
Latios and Latias are just Free Switch ins for Volcanion.
Not to mention any water type that doesn't mind a burn can easily switch into Volcanion; Rotom-W being the best.
Yeah.... There's no way this thing gets Freeze Dry, even if it becomes a tutor move, which I doubt.
Volcanion will definitely be the best out of every XY event PKMN due to its unique dual STAB, high attack stats, and ability to beat both of Charizard's forms. Let's take a look at the latter. One of the biggest problems on why Charizard is considered really good is because you don't know which form it's going to Mega Evolve into. Volcanion doesn't care about either. This is a prediction. This isn't guaranteed. Do not quote.
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: Volcanion has a great switch-in opportunity versus Mega Charizard X. If it decides to use Dragon Dance as it switches in. Volcanion can (barely) tank a +1 Earthquake and destroy it with a Modest Choice Specs Steam Eruption. In fact, Dragon Dance ZardX is declining in usage with TankZardX and Bulky DD being the more favorable sets. You will rarely come into this scenario. the only way you will lose is if Volcanion isn't running 252 HP and if you're not using this variant then it always loses to Offensive Dragon Dance.
v.
: Easily one of the best counters. It 4x resists Fire Blast and isn't OHKOed by Solarbeam even with no HP investment. In return, it can abuse the sun it provides to abuse powerful Fire Blasts or if it's Offensive Volcanion, can nuke destroy it with Steam Eruption assuming a little prior damage. It'll have to worry about Modest Solarbeam, but those are rare anyways.
Volcanion has some nice sets when looking at its movepool. Here are some I think will gain quite a lot of usage.
Volcanion | Choice Specs | Water Absorb
Modest | 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Steam Eruption | Fire Blast | Sludge Wave | Hidden Power [Electric]
This set makes use of Volcanion's most powerful attacking stat. Steam Eruption spreads burns and should be SPAMmed when safe. Fire Blast is even more powerful, but lacks a nice burn rate, but it's great versus Grass- and Steel-types / whatever resists Steam Eruption. Sludge Wave is there because it nukes Fairy-types like Clefable and Azumarill. <-That resists Steam Eruption and Fire Blast. Hidden Power [Electric] rounds off the coverage for Gyarados (Rotom-W + Manphy = 2HKO :D from sludge wave). Weather Ball can be used on Sand-teams for Mandibuzz, Kyurem-B, and Dragonite, but it has limited use outside of that. It could work since those are some nice switch-ins I guess.
Volcanion | Leftovers | Water Absorb
Calm | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Steam Eruption | Protect / Flamethrower | Roar | Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
It's a Specially Defensive set that's main use is to wall common threats like Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo. The former just fails because you can Toxic stall it and Keldeo just gives Volcanion 25% health by using Hydro Pump and Secret Sword won't do too much due to its 120 Base Def. Steam Eruption is used to spread burns. Toxic can be used to wear down things like Mandibuzz, Chansey, and special attackers. Roar for phazing and racking entry hazard damage. Protect is nice for scouting, but Flamethrower has it merits. Will-O-Wisp over Toxic if you want something to spread burns then relying on Steam Eruption.
I'm considering a mixed set, Substitute set, or some lol Flame Charge sweeping set, but these seem really good for now. Volcanion walls Manaphy and Keldeo making it really good too, and don't forget its wall-breaking potential which lets it beat pretty much every wall out there including the OHKO on Aegislash which doesn't care about KS. The mixed set could run Flare Blitz I guess for Chansey, but yea, I'm not taking Iron Barbs damage to beat Ferrothorn and recoil to beat every thing it's used for. Seems good on SW teams though!
Volcanion has some nice sets when looking at its movepool. Here are some I think will gain quite a lot of usage.
Volcanion | Choice Specs | Water Absorb
Modest | 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Steam Eruption | Fire Blast | Sludge Wave | Hidden Power [Electric]
This set makes use of Volcanion's most powerful attacking stat. Steam Eruption spreads burns and should be SPAMmed when safe. Fire Blast is even more powerful, but lacks a nice burn rate, but it's great versus Grass- and Steel-types / whatever resists Steam Eruption. Sludge Wave is there because it nukes Fairy-types like Clefable and Azumarill. <-That resists Steam Eruption and Fire Blast. Hidden Power [Electric] rounds off the coverage for Gyarados (Rotom-W + Manphy = 2HKO :D from sludge wave). Weather Ball can be used on Sand-teams for Mandibuzz, Kyurem-B, and Dragonite, but it has limited use outside of that. It could work since those are some nice switch-ins I guess.
Volcanion | Leftovers | Water Absorb
Calm | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Steam Eruption | Protect / Flamethrower | Roar | Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
It's a Specially Defensive set that's main use is to wall common threats like Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo. The former just fails because you can Toxic stall it and Keldeo just gives Volcanion 25% health by using Hydro Pump and Secret Sword won't do too much due to its 120 Base Def. Steam Eruption is used to spread burns. Toxic can be used to wear down things like Mandibuzz, Chansey, and special attackers. Roar for phazing and racking entry hazard damage. Protect is nice for scouting, but Flamethrower has it merits. Will-O-Wisp over Toxic if you want something to spread burns then relying on Steam Eruption.
I'm considering a mixed set, Substitute set, or some lol Flame Charge sweeping set, but these seem really good for now. Volcanion walls Manaphy and Keldeo making it really good too, and don't forget its wall-breaking potential which lets it beat pretty much every wall out there including the OHKO on Aegislash which doesn't care about KS. The mixed set could run Flare Blitz I guess for Chansey, but yea, I'm not taking Iron Barbs damage to beat Ferrothorn and recoil to beat every thing it's used for. Seems good on SW teams though!
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Other Moves
Solarbeam
Stone Edge
Weather Ball
Explosion
Haze
Focus Blast
Sunny Day
I seem to remember people whistling a very similar tune with Heatran and Volcarona, saying it would be total crap. I think its more along the lines of "Its a Fire type so it will be crap." I think your post makes a lot of assumptions and sweeping statements and so far most of the people "hyping" Volcanion have made decently convincing arguments. Even if half of OU can theoretically OHKO this guy with the right attack, you could say that about.. well.. half of OU... theoretically. Physical attackers risk a burn and Assault Vest is shaping up to be a popular item on this guy. Just don't think it will be quite so cut and dry.
And why you would worry about a predominantly specially oriented mon not being able to muscle past Blissey escapes me, personally. Heatran walls half the STAB, yes... but is weak to the other... and Volcanion x4 resists both of his STABs... so... hmmm... bit of a dud of an argument there. On that note, a mon walling itself can't really be called a con, either. And Suicune pressure stalling it? Well yeah I'll give you that one. Still I can think of better ways to torture yourself that waiting that out. Between the burn cancelling out (and then some) leftovers recovery and the possibility of something like Stone Edge getting a crit, seems like a flimsy strategy. I'd probably just switch.
I think at worst it will be a niche mon but I definitely don't see it dropping to UU. Its typing/ability and uses in spreading burns/forming cores/operating on weather-based teams give it too many opportunities to fill holes in teams in a unique way. I see it being a very viable mixed tank with Assault Vest. That'll be what I try first anyway. Its amazing SpA with its STABs and decent Atk with EdgeQuake sounds like a good plan.
Volcanion @ Assault Vest
EV's: 252 HP/252 SpA
Mild
-Steam Eruption
-Flamethrower
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
Simple set, not metagame changing or anything, but a start. Even with a defense lowering Nature his Def is equivalent to uninvested Heatran, as someone pointed out earlier. This leaves his good Attack, AV boosted SpD, and not good but not terrible Speed intact. Physical bulk can be further supplemented by burns he spreads, in essence having the ability to somewhat cover uninvested stats in a way reminiscent of Yveltal in ubers, with the exception of speed. STABs can be spammed against anything weak to them, EdgeQuake for anything that resists them.
I don't understand. Volcanion is basically a slower Heatran with worse typing and a cool signature move.
It is REALLY slow, utterly denied damage against blobs and most dragons (burn is risky but 70% of the time it won't happen, more taking into account accuracy, Lum Berries, and the fact that you might use another move), average at best typing (SR weak sucks and it has a ton of common weaknesses), and a shallow movepool (again, basically all it gets is Steam Eruption and Fire Blast).
Undoubtedly the best secret legend this gen but it still seems pretty sub-par in OU.
It is REALLY slow, utterly denied damage against blobs and most dragons (burn is risky but 70% of the time it won't happen, more taking into account accuracy, Lum Berries, and the fact that you might use another move), average at best typing (SR weak sucks and it has a ton of common weaknesses), and a shallow movepool (again, basically all it gets is Steam Eruption and Fire Blast).
Undoubtedly the best secret legend this gen but it still seems pretty sub-par in OU.
Speaking of cores, especially after I saw Weather Ball in his movepool, I've been thinking he can really work with Abomasnow (slash mega). The two can run mixed sets and cover each others' weaknesses besides Rock, which is hit super-effectively by their Grass and Water STABs. Makes me really rethink my thoughts about the snow monster.
also 100 posts, cool
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Could Volcanion run a good core with Politoed and take out bulky grass and steel types with Fire Moves will still being in the rain?
Absorbs Water, 3 quad resists, no quad weaknesses. Hardly worse, if anything, on par. Also, usable secondary STAB.
Shuckle is "REALLY slow".
See the plethora of posts quoting 2HKO calcs against common OU dragons. Also you could say the same thing about Volcarona, as well as Heatran, who,
Grasping at straws here I think.
Yeah? Talonflame is quad SR weak. Dragonite is SR weak. Tyranitar has even more common weaknesses. ("Common weaknesses" is thrown around so much... Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Rock, Ground, Fighting... all are referred to as common attacking types constantly and most of OU is weak to at least two of them. Really isn't a valid argument.)
Go mixed and add EdgeQuake, or full Special and run HP Ice/Solarbeam. Bam. Coverage. Run Flash Cannon or Sludge Wave if you really hate Fairies. Has enough bulk for RestTalk and Sub/3attacks, has Toxic and Explosion. Its not Octillery but I'd hardly say those two STAB moves are "all it gets". Oh and Gyro Ball. Could work on a mixed set since its "REALLY slow". ;)
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Volcanion has three weaknesses. Three. You know what else has three weaknesses? Heatran, Charizard, Garchomp...what is there to complain about? Volcanion has an immunity to water, 4x resistances to three types, two of which (Fire and Ice) are some of the most common attacking types in the metagame. Coupled with a Fairy resistance and solid 80/120/90 defenses, I fail to see how Volcanion is mediocre in this respect. It is also one of the only Pokemon that can safely switch into Scald and not fear a burn or super-effective damage.
While Volcanion is comparable to Heatran defensively, Volcanion mostly outclasses Heatran offensively thanks to better mixed attacking stats and a wider movepool. The only set Heatran would do better or just as well as Volcanion offensively is a Choice Scarf set since it won't have to go mixed to get the best coverage and is slightly faster, but Volcanion performs Choice Specs, Assault Vest, all-out attacker and bulky attacker w/ Toxic better than Heatran could thanks to the spammable Steam Eruption, a somewhat decent special movepool, and a good attack stat to make use of moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Flare Blitz.
While Volcanion is comparable to Heatran defensively, Volcanion mostly outclasses Heatran offensively thanks to better mixed attacking stats and a wider movepool. The only set Heatran would do better or just as well as Volcanion offensively is a Choice Scarf set since it won't have to go mixed to get the best coverage and is slightly faster, but Volcanion performs Choice Specs, Assault Vest, all-out attacker and bulky attacker w/ Toxic better than Heatran could thanks to the spammable Steam Eruption, a somewhat decent special movepool, and a good attack stat to make use of moves like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Flare Blitz.
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