Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)

[Halcyon.]

Ok, voting for Round 2 has started (sorry for the delay, but it's almost finals week and I'm busy as all hell)! If your nomination didn't make it onto the list, it's because your descriptions were not in-depth enough to be considered. The nominations are as follows:

All-Out Attacker Weavile
SDef Dragonite
Choice Band Azumarill
Life Orb Greninja
Defensive Gyarados
Offensive Thundurus
SDef Mandibuzz
SDef Zapdos
Assault Vest Goodra
Calm Mind Suicune
LO Nidoking
Assault Vest Slowking
Assault Vest Tornadus
Life Orb Latios
Assault Vest Togekiss
Nasty Plot Togekiss
DD Dragonite


Please PM me with your top 3 choices with the following format:

Subject: CtP: (your first choice), (your second choice), (your third choice)
Message: THE EXACT SAME AS THE SUBJECT

Voting will end in two days

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

You forgot my set, Halcyon. Again. Both of them.

 

[Halcyon.]

You forgot my set, Halcyon. Again. Both of them.

You only get one submission per round, but since you put two I didn't include either because I wasn't sure which you wanted to include.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

You only get one submission per round, but since you put two I didn't include either because I wasn't sure which you wanted to include.

Nidoking. Because Azumarill was already taken.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Halcyon. SpD should be speed, not special defense. Sorry, lol

 

[Subject 18]

Please PM me with your top 3 choices with the following format:

Subject: CtP: (your first choice), (your second choice), (your third choice)
Message: THE EXACT SAME AS THE SUBJECT

Is this really that hard for people to follow?

Please do not post your votes in this thread to avoid bandwagoning. Thank you.

 

[Halcyon.]

Alright the voting is now closed! We had a much bigger turnout than I expected, and many more voters than last time which is great to see! Thank you to all who participated. The votes were as follows:

SDef Dragonite: 14
Assault Vest Tornadus: 10
Assault Vest Goodra: 9
SDef Zapdos: 5
Offensive Thundurus: 4
SDef Mandibuzz: 3
Defensive Gyarados: 2
Assault Vest Slowking: 2
LO Latios: 1
CB Azumarill: 1
NP Togekiss: 1
All-Out Attacker Weavile: 1
LO Greninja: 1
CM Suicune: 1
DD Dragonite: 1
Assault Vest Togekiss: 1

This means that Specially Defensive Dragonite is Team 2's first pick! So now it's time for Team 2 to pick it's second Pokemon. That's right, Team 2 will have two picks in a row. This second pick, in my opinion, should be a more offensively inclined check to Landorus, but one which also helps to define a purpose to Team 2 in general. This is where we have a bit of leniency, since we already have a solid switch-in to Team 1's first Pokemon. Please note that the Pokemon we pick now shouldn't have an obvious counter to it that also gives Dragonite trouble. For example: Belly Drum Azumarill might seem like a good pick here, but both Dragonite and BD Azu are cleanly stopped by Unaware Clefable, making it a not-so-good choice. This is the way you have to think for Round 3!

With that said, Round 3 nominations have begun!

 

[michaeloche]

I nominate LO Weavile:

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Pursuit
-Ice Shard

Not only does it beat the aforementioned Landorus (even Ice Shard is an OHKO), it can hit most, if not all, of OU for at least neutral damage with its STABs alone, something few other Pokemon can say. It can also outspeed Adamant Talonflame's Brave Bird (Ice Shard does 35.9-42.2%, so it's a possible RK). The only real problem that Weavile has is its pretty much nonexistent bulk.

Edit: 300th post, woo.

 

[Homeslice]

Nominating Defensive Skarmory:

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Skarmory can take anything Dragonite throws at it, and can either set up rocks or Whirlwind away the switch in. Roost adds for longevity. Skarmory can also take on Mamoswine, another common check to Landorus. Skarmory has good synergy with Landy in the fact Landy can switch in on an electric type move and either U-Turn out to a better check/counter or fire away moves. Defog was not chosen because at this point team 1 doesn't need it and team 2 will probably end up adding their own to better support Dragonite. Brave Bird can be switched for Drill Peck for longevity if wanted.

 

[Halcyon.]

Nominating Defensive Skarmory:

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Skarmory can take anything Dragonite throws at it, and can either set up rocks or Whirlwind away the switch in. Roost adds for longevity. Skarmory can also take on Mamoswine, another common check to Landorus. Skarmory has good synergy with Landy in the fact Landy can switch in on an electric type move and either U-Turn out to a better check/counter or fire away moves. Defog was not chosen because at this point team 1 doesn't need it and team 2 will probably end up adding their own to better support Dragonite. Brave Bird can be switched for Drill Peck for longevity if wanted.

Actually, Team 2 gets a second pick, so you shouldn't worry about countering Dragonite just yet.

 

[Homeslice]

Actually, Team 2 gets a second pick, so you shouldn't worry about countering Dragonite just yet.

whoops my bad forgot how it works
I'll edit that later with someone new

 

[Jaroda]

Dragonite is going to want a Defog user for sure. There are a few that fortunately do well against Landorus-I as well. I'm thinking.

Mandibuzz@Leftovers
Overcoat
Impish 248 HP / 252 Df / 8 SpD
~ Defog
~ Roost
~ Taunt
~ Knock Off

Mandibuzz is one great mixed wall and Defog user. It has the benefit of being able to switch into two of Landorus' moves with impunity, making Psychic and Earth Power less safe options in general for him. If you get in for free or he switches in, Knock Off severely cripples Landorus by removing his Life Orb and also threatens a number of potential teamates via item removal. Defog protects Dragonite and ourselves by removing hazards as well as other potential Fire and Flying types we feel like using. Finally Taunt can screw potential walls and set up users, giving Mandibuzz the advantage against things like Chansey, Mega Venusaur, Heatran, Hippowdon, Skarmory and Aegeslash who won't be able to use King's Shield. She may share an Ice and Fairy weakness with Dragonite, but he provides several benefits to the team and will really hamper selection for Team 1 with the amount of support it brings in a single role, so we just need to bring a Steel or two for future slots. I considered putting the 8 EVs into Speed for Mega Venusaur and other base 80s but it's pointless with counter team making lol.

 

[Tomahawk]

Allright, if we want Dragonite to reliably counter Landorus we need a Defogger or Rapid Spinner, but nominating one right now is a bad idea. Nominating one later is a better idea since we preferably want to know Team 1's Stealth Rock setter (or spinblocker/Defiant mon) before taking care of that. Thus, we should do that in a later round. Without Stealth Rock up, Dragonite is a wonderful switchin to Landorus. Unfortunately, U-turn breaks Multiscale as well, but hey what can you do about that.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 123-146 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The only way Landorus will beat Dragonite (if we keep it at high health) is 2HKOing with Psychic on the switchin. Such, I think we should have another Pokémon on the team that punishes Psychic and invites Team 1 to use either Earth Power or Focus Blast. Weavile is decent, but it is way too frail to take any other hit and U-turn actually OHKOes. If only we still had Genesect... My first thought was Choice Scarf Gothitelle, if it comes in on Psychic (or Focus Blast) it outspeeds and OHKOes, it pretty much forces the U-turn, but picking Gothitelle this early isn't exactly great. You want to pick it later rather than earlier, as if it is prepared for it is pretty much useless. Also you want to finetune it depending on the opposing team so it can pick out the threats you want.

So I kept on looking. Quite frankly, I couldn't really find anything. Landorus hits really hard, we all know why it was Uber last generation. Also, most things that can take a Psychic either:
1) Are weak to U-turn or super frail physically
2) Outsped by Landorus and OHKOed by Earth Power / Focus Blast
3) Don't OHKO Landorus so lose 1-on-1

I'll get back to this later when I have a suggestion that fulfills this (that is a decent early pick), or something that doesn't fulfill this but is still a good choice.

 

[ganj4lF]

I agree with Tomahawk, but I also want to stress that, in my opinion, we absolutely need an offensive pick at the moment. SDef Dragonite is nice and all, but Landorus has U-Turn and can easily go to something that just wrecks Nite (Kyurem-B? Azumarill? Who knows...). We will need to pick something defensive later, both for Defog support (although I'd argue that Rapid Spin looks better, with Excadrill complementing Nite very nicely, however it's probably a better idea to hold on that pick and maybe do it later) and for patching these threats, so we can't afford to also stay on the defensive with this pick. We risk to give Team 1 the possibility of going for a strong, catch-all defensive threat, and then just overwhelm us with offense. I am still thinking about what is the best offensive threat at the moment, so I'll get back soon to submit something; I just want to point out that submissions like Mandibuzz, while beneficial for Nite, may be more harmful than helpful in regard of the general strategy Team 2 needs to adopt to come out on top of the draft.

 

[vyomov]

Nominating this set:

Greninja (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Protean
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Atk/ 252 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory
- U-Turn

Greninja is one of the premier sweepers in the tier that can easily put pressure on Team 1 while also giving us:
a) Something to switch into Psychic
b) A way to revenge Lando-I
c) Speed for the team
The coverage that Greninja offers allows it to take down a lot of threats handily, which can help in this project.
The downside is that Greninja is quite frail, but that's something our other team members can carry.

EDIT: As of now, I'm running Extrasensory over Dark Pulse because it makes more sense in the project, but it's up for discussion.

 

[Tomahawk]

Greninja is a relatively good choice, in my opinion. However, I do not entirely agree with your slashes. Please use U-turn over Dark Pulse or Extrasensory. Greninja is really threatening, but it can be checked and U-turn is really cool (similar to Team 1's Landorus set) and just forces switchins out once again. It also does a ton of damage versus stuff like Blissey actually, though I doubt Team 1 will pick it because of its lack of offensive presence. (Also, Blissey > Chansey because if they pick Chansey we can just U-turn to Taunt / Calm Mind / Psyshock / Rest Gothitelle and win.)

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Greninja is a relatively good choice, in my opinion. However, I do not entirely agree with your slashes. Please use U-turn over Dark Pulse or Extrasensory. Greninja is really threatening, but it can be checked and U-turn is really cool (similar to Team 1's Landorus set) and just forces switchins out once again. It also does a ton of damage versus stuff like Blissey actually, though I doubt Team 1 will pick it because of its lack of offensive presence. (Also, Blissey > Chansey because if they pick Chansey we can just U-turn to Taunt / Calm Mind / Psyshock / Rest Gothitelle and win.)

I disagree, while U-Turn is cool, it won't do much damage coming from Greninja even if it gets STAB and yes you gain momentum but you also take LO damage which is a much bigger deal for Greninja than for Lando-I as Greninja takes LO damage from every move rather than just U-Turn.

It hardly does 'a ton of damage' versus anything (other than Celebi) much less Blissey but it's not insignificant, I don't get your argument about why Blissey would be more desirable than Chansey either as neither can do anything to the Goth set you mention.

I think Greninja would be an excellent choice for Team 2 as it's a reliable revenge killer with great coverage and a last resort check to Lando-I (albeit extremely risky).

 

[Tomahawk]

I disagree, while U-Turn is cool, it won't do much damage coming from Greninja even if it gets STAB and yes you gain momentum but you also take LO damage which is a much bigger deal for Greninja than for Lando-I as Greninja takes LO damage from every move rather than just U-Turn.

It hardly does 'a ton of damage' versus anything (other than Celebi) much less Blissey but it's not insignificant, I don't get your argument about why Blissey would be more desirable than Chansey either as neither can do anything to the Goth set you mention.

I think Greninja would be an excellent choice for Team 2 as it's a reliable revenge killer with great coverage and a last resort check to Lando-I (albeit extremely risky).

I understand your point, but Greninja isn't gonna take a hit anyway, and momentum is more important than you make it out to be. Also, Dark Pulse + Extrasensory doesn't give that much extra coverage, especially considering the project. The Life Orb recoil is pretty annoying, but I'd rather have U-turn and, say, Expert Belt than Life Orb and no U-turn.

Shed Shell. Also:
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 172-203 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 7.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ton of damage may have been a bit much, but it definnitely wears them down, when combined with Stealth Rock damage for example. After Stealth Rock, U-turn, one round of Leftovers, and Rotom-W switching in the next time on Stealth Rock, Dark Pulse 2HKOes.

I agree, it's a decent revenge killer for Landorus and it puts pressure on Team 1 (more so with U-turn in my opinion). Obviously if we pick Life Orb + U-turn Greninja they might pick something like Ferrothorn but that is a very easily abusable choice, it is easily trapped by Magnezone, Wobbuffet, or Gothitelle if needed and also gives free switchins to lots of mons.

 

[Full_Korbe]

As much as I like having both Extrasensory and Dark Pulse on Greninja, it may not cut it in this kind of team.
Team 1 can pick the right counter to Greninja, so we want U-Turn to maintain pressure on them. I've no clear opinion on this, I've never really liked U-Turn on Greninja (the LO damage for a weak move aren't to be overlooked) but they are going to make a team tailored to counter Greninja, and we definitely want to gain momentum... But with U-Turn, Azumarill flat out counters us.

I like this pick. It puts pressure on their team, because Greninja is a pain to handle, and force a defensive pick. I have no idea right now, but I agree that we need something offensive, and preferably fast.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I understand your point, but Greninja isn't gonna take a hit anyway, and momentum is more important than you make it out to be. Also, Dark Pulse + Extrasensory doesn't give that much extra coverage, especially considering the project. The Life Orb recoil is pretty annoying, but I'd rather have U-turn and, say, Expert Belt than Life Orb and no U-turn.

Shed Shell. Also:
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 172-203 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 7.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ton of damage may have been a bit much, but it definnitely wears them down, when combined with Stealth Rock damage for example. After Stealth Rock, U-turn, one round of Leftovers, and Rotom-W switching in the next time on Stealth Rock, Dark Pulse 2HKOes.

I agree, it's a decent revenge killer for Landorus and it puts pressure on Team 1 (more so with U-turn in my opinion). Obviously if we pick Life Orb + U-turn Greninja they might pick something like Ferrothorn but that is a very easily abusable choice, it is easily trapped by Magnezone, Wobbuffet, or Gothitelle if needed and also gives free switchins to lots of mons.

Shed Shell Blissey? Are you serious...?

Is say in this thread Dark Pulse is actually more important as without it Aegislash gets in for free on 3/4 of your moves and without Extrasensory Mega-Venusaur gives you trouble.

Expert Belt is no alternative for Life Orb as you lose way too much power.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Instead of using frail greninja, why not use Gyarados, which has more bulk, a resistance to ground, and counters Landorus?

I guess this is my nomination:

Gyarados (Nickname: Odysseus)
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Moxie (Intimidate works too)
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Bounce

Well, Gyarados has massive high attack, considerable speed, good 95/79/100 defenses. The thing has it all put together for it. To start things off, you can always use intimidate instead of Moxie, but I like Moxie more. Intimidate can lower a physical attacker's attack, which can make gyarados setting up a lot easier. At the same time, Moxie gives an awesome boost to Gyarados's attack. Gyarados only needs one Dragon Dance to start wrecking shit, anyways. Earthquake is a great move for Gyarados, because it covers Steel, Poison, and Electric pokemon. Plus, a base 100 damage for it with no drawbacks is also a blessing. Waterfall is a STAB that is reliable, has a small chance to flinch, and can do some dents in bulky pokemon. Bounce covers Grass types more than Ice Fang, and also has a good chance to parahax.

In my eyes, Gyarados > Greninja

 

[AdinanBoy]

I nominate focus sash Breloom with 252 attack 252 speed 4 special defense.
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Technician
With a moveset of:
Spore
Mach punch
Bullet seed
Swords dance

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Gyarados works but without Substitute its very risky and in general its easy to counter pick with something like Ferrothorn or Rotom-W it also has a good chance of being 2HKOd by Lando's Psychic.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Gyarados works but without Substitute its very risky and in general its easy to counter pick with something like Ferrothorn or Rotom-W.

Yeah. You can always substitute (no pun intended) Bounce for Substitute. Earthquake and Waterfall already is pretty good coverage.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I don't think we need more counters to Landorus right now. Dragonite already does a pretty good job at countering Landorus and it can only be beaten with prior damage and Psychic. Right now for our current pick we should ensure that 1) it has good synergy with Dragonite 2) it doesn't get completely donked by Psychic. Gyarados isn't necessary at this point, imo Greninja sounds like a decent nom if U-turn is used over Extrasensory; as pointed out U-turn is just amazing while the Pokemon that Extrasensory cover (M-Venusaur and Conk) can be pretty easily taken advantage of by team 2 with U-turn + Gothitelle or something similar.

Apart from hazard removal, I believe another important form of support team 2 can use is Stealth Rock, which would incredibly discourage constant VoltTurning. As we saw in last gen's CtP entry hazards were pretty important to handle constant momentum shifting, which is what U-turn Lando seems to be hinting at. Of course we don't have to do it this round but it's something to take into account so that we don't simply throw on any random Defogger on the team this early on.