Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[E4 Flint]

Further confirmation except with a real person lel http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-110889160

 

[Whatwasthatnoise]

If nothing else, at least they have really cool names.

 

[E4 Flint]

:D :D
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-111615853

 

[Arcticblast]

you're using Prankster Assist to call a 90 BP move on one Pokemon... okay have fun with that

AND ALWAYS REMEMBER PRANKSTER ASSIST OUTRAGE WAS THE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO BALANCED HACKMONS OH MY GOD SO GLAD THAT WAS FIXED

 

[E4 Flint]

Arcticblast that team is purely for fun and besides it still managed to go 38-5 lel it was a nostalgia team for "prankster eq"

If tinted lens removed immunities i'd bring the outrage back lel

 

[Adrian Marin]

Just adding more stuff to support my argument since Thousand Arrows is now implemented, these observations are in a defensive point of view, but I think that these answers should be answered in the same pov, not just "use offense and this wouldn't be a problem.":

Poison Heal Sweeping + Thousand Waves doesn't even give you a chance to scout thanks to its trapping effect, Thousand Arrows makes everyone less reliant on flyers i.e Thousand Arrows buffs Thousand Waves.

This also creates variance since both more are viable on physical attackers. Scouting becomes unsafe courtesy of waves trapping your teammates.
Without scouting, there is no consistency. As a result, matchup becomes more involved and will often be the deciding factor. Some will argue that the same can be said about using moves such as Infestation and Spider Web on their Proteans. However, no one will run those moves on Proteans almost all the time to prevent themselves from being too reliant on matchup.

Thousand Waves is very useful as a coverage move alone. One example is against a Mewtwo-X, it almost always requires scouting with Chansey to be used effectively. It has too much firepower to wall, you need to use the easiest way to scout it, and that way is Imposter. This is also one of a million or more reasons why Imposter is used on almost every single team that's good. Thousand Waves and Thousand Arrows can be used on the same Pokemon viably.

The high possibility of having either forces you to treat said treat like it has both at once. Thousand Waves makes scouting unsafe, Thousand Arrows makes walling it impossible without scouting. If it's used on a Pokemon such as Protean Mewtwo-X, who may also carry Spore with Safety Goggles to combat Imposter, walling it becomes even more futile.

Right now, my main question is how would you counter a Protean M2X with Thousand Waves, coverage moves and possibly sleep reliably? Of course, any gimmicky counters that seem to only work well for it will only prove that it's unhealthy for the metagame in my honest opinion.

 

[verbatim]

AND ALWAYS REMEMBER PRANKSTER ASSIST OUTRAGE WAS THE WORST THING TO EVER HAPPEN TO BALANCED HACKMONS OH MY GOD SO GLAD THAT WAS FIXED

Freeze Shock

 

[Kit Kasai]

Just adding more stuff to support my argument since Thousand Arrows is now implemented, these observations are in a defensive point of view, but I think that these answers should be answered in the same pov, not just "use offense and this wouldn't be a problem.":




This also creates variance since both more are viable on physical attackers. Scouting becomes unsafe courtesy of waves trapping your teammates.
Without scouting, there is no consistency. As a result, matchup becomes more involved and will often be the deciding factor. Some will argue that the same can be said about using moves such as Infestation and Spider Web on their Proteans. However, no one will run those moves on Proteans almost all the time to prevent themselves from being too reliant on matchup.

Thousand Waves is very useful as a coverage move alone. One example is against a Mewtwo-X, it almost always requires scouting with Chansey to be used effectively. It has too much firepower to wall, you need to use the easiest way to scout it, and that way is Imposter. This is also one of a million or more reasons why Imposter is used on almost every single team that's good. Thousand Waves and Thousand Arrows can be used on the same Pokemon viably.

The high possibility of having either forces you to treat said treat like it has both at once. Thousand Waves makes scouting unsafe, Thousand Arrows makes walling it impossible without scouting. If it's used on a Pokemon such as Protean Mewtwo-X, who may also carry Spore with Safety Goggles to combat Imposter, walling it becomes even more futile.

Right now, my main question is how would you counter a Protean M2X with Thousand Waves, coverage moves and possibly sleep reliably? Of course, any gimmicky counters that seem to only work well for it will only prove that it's unhealthy for the metagame in my honest opinion.

Poison heal giratina with king's shield maybe?

252+ Atk Protean Mega Mewtwo X Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 284-336 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Mewtwo rarely carries an ice type move anyways, and the strongest one can be recovered off. Knock off does a lot on the first hit, but barely does any after that.

Life orb is a problem, but you could always go Fur Coat Giratina... lol idk

As for an offensive standpoint, shedinja + xern/cube/mm2y can be used as a counter.

 

[CactusCacti]

Sturdy Sheddy can be used for your scouting needs if thousand waves scares you when it comes to MM2X really.
You can't trap ghosts afterall, biggest risk is sacred fire, really.

Or maybe some other ghost like Giratina or Aegislash (doesnt enjoy waves damage tho)

But really

Ghosts. Or proteon that can go ghost.
Go go ghost.

 

[Rumors]

Is the problem really 1k Arrowaves in this instance? Or is it Xtwo? Or is it Protean? In other words, if you remove one or both of the other elements, are still Arrowaves impossible to be dealt with? Or, to draw a comparison to standard, is the problem Seed Flare and Air Slash or is it Serene Grace Skymin?

Mind, I'm not saying 1k Arrowaves isn't OP (especially since I've played very little since they've been implemented) nor am I suggesting Xtwo or Protean are OP. Rather, I'm just saying it'd be worth examining every component of the problem mon(s) rather than just the newly introduced one.

 

[Nike of Samothrace]

I think we're being a little silly. These are ground type moves that can hit fliers, and can trap people. They don't seem too over centralizing at the moment, and the meta will adapt like it always does. Levitran is a thing of the past. Awwwww. One tear shed. There are far more centralizing things that we don't care about. THE most centralizing thing in BH is Imposter, hands down. I'm curious to see what it would be like without it. Not saying we should ban it, but I think it would be fun to have a server that tries BH out without the transforming blobs.

Complete side note, I think that evasion is incredibly toxic to the meta. Not saying we should do anything about it, because there are ways around it (perish song, whirlwind, etc) but I just want to complain. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-111715252

 

[Kit Kasai]

I think we're being a little silly. These are ground type moves that can hit fliers, and can trap people. They don't seem too over centralizing at the moment, and the meta will adapt like it always does. Levitran is a thing of the past. Awwwww. One tear shed. There are far more centralizing things that we don't care about. THE most centralizing thing in BH is Imposter, hands down. I'm curious to see what it would be like without it. Not saying we should ban it, but I think it would be fun to have a server that tries BH out without the transforming blobs.

Complete side note, I think that evasion is incredibly toxic to the meta. Not saying we should do anything about it, because there are ways around it (perish song, whirlwind, etc) but I just want to complain. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-111715252

We do have a little unofficial "BH UU" experiment going on that includes banning the top 100 or so used pokemon, as well as banning abilities like Imposter, Poison Heal, Magic Bounce, and a few others I don't remember. Ask people on the OM room about it.

 

[Nike of Samothrace]

Yeah I built a team, but no one else has one! Haha I really want to test it out.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Based on the above posts, it seems that there is always a huge risk when dealing with a Protean Mega Mewtwo-X with Thousand Waves. Shedinja risks getting burned by Sacred Fire, Giratina cannot tank hits reliably.

THE most centralizing thing in BH is Imposter, hands down. I'm curious to see what it would be like without it. Not saying we should ban it, but I think it would be fun to have a server that tries BH out without the transforming blobs.

BH without Imposter would be very unbalanced. Imposter is what keeps offensive in check, without it, abilities like Contrary will dominate. That's why in BH UU, all abilities that Imposter and practically Imposter alone keeps in check are banned.

I think we're being a little silly. These are ground type moves that can hit fliers, and can trap people. They don't seem too over centralizing at the moment, and the meta will adapt like it always does. Levitran is a thing of the past. Awwwww.

These are ground type moves, one that hit fliers, another that traps and makes scouting unsafe. Some Pokemon absolutely require scouting with Chansey to defeat them reliably. Thousand Waves is not only good on many of them with coverage, it makes scouting a huge problem. So far, there is no reliable way of dealing with this issue.

 

[Halliday]

So I think we should ban knock off. My reasoning here is that it centralizes the metagame without contributing to it, itself. What it does is make item based strategies (such as prank spore, regenvest, and plate sweepers) less viable, due to being able to knock off their items. Even doing this, it is not in and of itself a reliable answer to these strategies, as there is always matchups to worry about, as well as the fact that it might not even hit them. This makes both the item strategies and knock off itself inconsitent, making other strategies more reliable, and generally better. If we ban knock off, then it does not subtract from the tier at all, as there are no strategies that are based off of knock off. Essentially, banning it would decentralize the tier a bit, and generally make it more fun to play in.

 

[Monte Cristo]

k-off n shit
so before you bash me for not actually playing much anymore, I need to show you a hint of an archive I have: History of OtherMetas- BH

basic history of bh up until 1-2 months ago

History of BHXY

BH is a very diverse environment due to the large amount of viable and diverse things in the tier,and this has stayed true through from all the stages of BH.

BHXY Stage 1: “Welcome to Kalos!”

Post Quote of the Stage(by Adrian Marin- aka one of BH’s best stall players to touch the tier)

Ok, here are some great sets at the moment:

Yveltal @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Magic Guard

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Rapid Spin

- Crunch

- Brave Bird

- Roost

Yveltal counters Nature Power users, spins well because of its SE crunch to rapid blockers such as Aegislash and Giratina, and it also has high bulk! 100 base speed tier also greatly aids it!

Xerneas (F) @ Leftovers

Ability: Unaware

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Calm Nature

IVs: null Atk

- Heal Order

- Perish Song

- Moon Blast

- Foul Play

Xerneas is now the best Unaware in the metagame, because of its immunity to dragon, it walls Kyurem-W and Latios well, additionally, it hits very hard with Moon Blast and can speed tie with the 670 bst normal brothers.

Carbink @ Leftovers

Ability: Sand Stream

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef

Careful Nature

IVs: null SAtk / 0 Spd

- Magic Coat

- Heal Order

- Stealth Rock

- Skill Swap

Carbink is quite an interesting pokemon, resisting both of Yveltal's STABS while countering Reshiram effectively. Magic Coat allows it to bounce back things that would threaten it such as Taunt, and Dark Void while Heal Order is standard for walls and Skill Swap + Stealth Rock pair nicely, use it on bouncers to set rocks or use it on Magic Guard Yveltal.

Registeel V.2 (Aegislash) @ Leftovers

Ability: Magic Bounce

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Bold Nature

- Entrainment

- Heal Order

- Whirlwind

- Aromatherapy

Aegislash is overall, the best anti-Poison Heal Regigigas available, something all successful BH teams should have. Entrainment is standard on anti-gigas bounce users while Whirlwind can phaze a substitute'd Gigas, something that would really threaten your team since you can't Entrainment through Substitute. Aromatherapy and Heal Order are used for longevity and team support

To be perfectly honest, this was quite a unknowing and ignorant time due to all the off estimates of calculating new kalos poke stats, all the misconceptions of mechanics and general new-ness of the tier in XY Format. To explain: Zyarge was “confirmed” by serebii at the time to have 130/130/130 bulk and the XY twin legends were confirmed to have a 100 base speed tier and higher overall defenses, not only that but it was also unknown how powder immunities worked, so nobody was using bulky grasses like MegaSaur or Ferrothorn to absorb accurate sleep moves or anything, in fact, dark void was considered extremely inferior to spore in every way due to the lack of knowledge of powder moves in XY, leading to the use of magic bounce and toxic orb PH/Magic Guard quite a lot. Not only that but Nature Power was not yet learned to have switched from earthquake to tri attack, making people, like for example adrian marin paranoid of prankster NP spammers like Groudon. This era also features the fact that knock off wasn’t known to have it’s current effects in XY at this time so PH gira’s only option for bounce aegis was a random surprise sacred fire and yveltal was still using the -now inferior- crunch!

Not only this, but refrigerate was only really just being discovered, and now it was only really being used for boomburst on kyurem-white, which it still is being used for, but kyurem-black was not really discovered, nor was parental bond, which we will come to talk about later. On the subject of ability changes, gale wings was getting a lot of note, mainly for being new but for showing great potential on Rayquaza, which could use moldy wall breakers & other wall breakers to clean up unawares before a smash sweep, due to it having ridiculous level priority, once the unawares were stopped, it could easily clean many teams easily due to the lack of imposter spam early gen 6 unlike late gen 5 due to people wanting to try new things.

BHXY Stage 1.5: “Huge1(Huge to the 1st ‘power’? get it?)”

Post Quote(s) of the Stage(1st post by asterat a well known BH player)

Evidence for ban in case anyone is undecided.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-59867836

kid diddler: gg

dood06 left.

business as usual: lol no

business as usual: this shit needs to go

kid diddler: lol no

kid diddler: its best way to play

business as usual: how do you argue that?

kid diddler: its hilarious

business as usual: that's not the piint

business as usual: point*

kid diddler: sure it is

business as usual: use that in pure hackmons, these are supposed to be bnalanced

business as usual: balanced*

kid diddler: thats the funny part

kid diddler: you get?

business as usual: nope.

business as usual: it's stupid

kid diddler: dont be mad cause i thought of it first

kid diddler: gg get gud

(2nd post by PlatypusVenom a well known BH player)

[quot="PlatypusVenom"]Adrian Marin said:

What I don't like is that it cannot defeat Imposter reliably and must rely on an anti-imposter such as Shedinja’



Well I must say that yes, blocking Protean must be really hard, and easily countered by Imposter, which is where my standard Shedinja comes into play. It is very useful for blocking all kinds of sweepers, though it does require more maintenance than most team members.


‘TheBurgerKing99 said:

So a set I enjoy is magic guard Ho-oh... with toxic orb... The ability to hit hard, get past shedinja (oh yeah, that's what psycho shift is for.)’



As Burger has so nicely brought up, sets like this Ho-Oh would be difficult to defend, especially with the lack of any status absorbers on my team, save a grass type for spore. This gave rise to a unique set for my Shedinja, users of Dark Void/Spore, and my entire team in general: Prankster Safeguard. Originally I just ran it on my Shedinja for obvious reasons, then realized it is useful in other ways. I put Safeguard on my Prankster mon as well and, noticing Sheddy hasn't used it at all since then, replaced the move.

Completely off-topic from this post, but I firmly believe that Pure/Huge Power should be banned on PS. sugarhigh is running around with a Slaking that 1HKOs everything. Just putting that out there”[/quote]

(3rd post by asterat(again) a well known BH player)

“ ‘Adrian Marin said:

Fur Coat really isn't that great an ability, BH is all about walling top threats, and the most important physical top threat to stop is PH Gigas, which requires a Pokemon resistant to Facade and the ability to not care about sleep. Fur Coat only provides a x2 defense boost, it's not OP, it never will be and it will not balance out Pure/Huge Power's with boosting moves.’



Playful countered gigas pretty effectively with fur coat chesnaught. No, it's not a perfect counter but fur coat in the right pace can be a very useful walling ability. But I do absolutely agree p/h power are broken and not kept in check by fur coat.


Redless I was referring to the era where you started mega evolved.


Also this made me sad:

°GymLdr.NonePiece°:Bro, I've used Contrary Arceus Fire with V-Create

°GymLdr.NonePiece°:Works epicly”

This was a very interesting stage in BHXY to say the least. Not quite a real stage in itself, kind of mixed in with stage 1, but this was a great development in BH, seeing every play style trying to shift efficiently but eventually failing to due to the sheer power of PP/HP. Due to it’s power, many people debated on why the hell we re tested it in the first place. The main users of it were Slaking and Regigigas with sets abusing knock off, return, and other filler moves due to their power and easy type coverage synergy between 2 moves. after a couple of ladder sessions, resetting of the pokemon showdown main server it was finally banned.

BHXY Stage 3: “Parental BANNED”

(The BH Parental Bond Voting thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bh-parental-bond-policy-decision.3494352 )

Post Quote(s) of the Stage(1st post by ‘Rumors’ a well known BH player)

“I am in favor of an outright ban and here is why.

First, the elephant in the room: Seismic Shade Fang. Any Pokemon in the tier, and literally any Pokemon, including Weedle and Sunkern, can 2HKO any susceptible Pokemon with that move combination. Only Ghosts with greater than base 100 HP and Shedinja cannot be 2HKOed as Seismis Shade is a clean 2HKO on anything below base 100 HP. There's no reason something like Weedle should ever have the capability to 2HKO something like Lugia (FEAR aside).

Second, purely in terms of damage output, Parental Bond outclasses all other legal pure damage abilities. Adaptability boosts STABs by 50%. Technician boosts base 60 or less moves by 50%. Drought/Drizzle indirectly boost Fire/Water moves 50% via weather. Blaze/Torrent/Overgrowth/Swarm boost their types' moves by 50% but only when HP is 33%. Guts increases Attack by 50%, but only when statused. Flare Boost is the same for Special Moves and is limited to burns. Hustle boosts physical moves by 50%, but reduces accuracy by 20%. Solar Power boosts special moves by 50%, but only in the sun and also drains HP as quickly as the standard poison status. All other damage-boosting abilities are either below 50% or do not work in singles.

Meanwhile, Parental Bond boosts damage by 50% for all moves all the time with no draw backs of any sort. Hence, if you want a damage boosting ability, there's little reason to run anything else. Refridge/Pixel/Aerilate, Prankster, and Moldy are about the only other viable options and even then only on specific Pokemon or sets, and offensive Moldy is kind of nerfed this generation with the lower reliance on Unaware.

The over-centralization it causes for just those two reasons alone would be enough to annoy me. But, there's more!

With Parental Bond, because the attack strikes twice, you're actually getting "lite" versions of other abilities. Serene Grace and Super Luck are the most prominent. You could also argue that you get Infiltrator-lite and Skill Link-lite, except the latter working on every move.

Basically, secondary and crit chance are increased by 25% over their normal values and the user can break through and damage Pokemon behind subs reliably. They also bust through the rare non-Sheddy Sturdy and Focus Sash.

There's also a lot of other shenanigans that haven't really been explored much but are out there. Off the top of my head...

Nuzzle to bypass Lum Berry, except for Harvest Lum.

Power Up Punch for obvious reasons.

Moves like Mystical Fire to neuter an attacker while hurting it.

Moves like Low Sweep to gain a massive speed advantage. Low Sweep and the like usually does this already thanks to how narrow speed tiers are in BH, but with PB it can even gradually slow down a Speed Boost user.

Let's not even mention moves like Mud Slap. >.>

PB Acid Spray pretty much forces out even the sturdiest of special walls.

While those are less directly threatening than the Seismic Shade Fang combo (which is really just stupidly effective), that kind of stuff could still be problematic and I imagine at least some of it would start showing up should Seismic Shade Fang get the ban. I don't know how broken those would be in practice, but it's worth considering.

Or they'll just start using Choice Band PB V-Create Mega Blaziken. I've used that before Seismic Shade Fang was discovered and it was just silly. At least my Adaptability Entei in Gen V only got the boost on STABs.

And finally, Parental Bond sets a bad example for our younger players. It encourages them to go out and have children simply to gain an advantage in battle. And I don't know about you, but anything that encourages the next generation to raise their own kids to be child soldiers has to be a bad thing.”

As you can see, this was quite the problem in BH, Rumors’ post basically summed up how broken the ability was and could be. Parental Bond was quite the ability in BH as you could see, nukes could fire off 50% stronger hits, luck gimmicks could legitimately be viable for once with the boost in power, nuzzle could destroy lum berry, and sacred fire was a 142.5 BP move with a 75% chance to burn before STAB! and last but definitely, utterly not least in any way, shape, or form: Seismic-Fang-Shade: THe combination of Seismic Toss and/or Super Fang and Night Shade all in one combined with Parental Bond in order to always deal with any pokemon bar a ghost type with >100 base HP- with Super Fang dealing 75% to any non ghost type, Seismic toss dealing any non ghost for 200 HP exactly in order to combo with SFang to pick off any non ghost type and Night Shade which was basically another version of Seismic toss except it was used for hitting any ghost with <100 base HP with it’s 200 HP per round damage instead of picking off SFang’s targets like Seismic did. Pretty much the only sure fire checks to this were Giratina and hoping to god you win the speed ties with Imposter, as everything else was eliminated, Shedinja could count as a minor check but double Sacred fire and sandstorm/hail to surprise sheddy were very common and could easily deal with it, lets just thank game freak they decided not to let this beast work with support moves.

And up until 1 or 2 monthes ago- this was the current metagame:

BHXY Stage 4: The Current Metagame(old)

So here we are, the final frontier, today’s metagame. Alright so here’s basically, today’s metagame: Xerneas, Kyurem-W, Mega Gar, The Mega Mewtwos, Mega Ken and Kyurem-B and some others are top offensive threats - Chansey, Giratina, PH Yveltal, Mega Saur, Mega Scizor, Flash Fire Aegislash, Regen Kyogre and Cresselia are top defensive threats - and Shedinja, PH Gigas, Imposter Chans/Bliss and Yveltal are top utility threats.

With all of these comes, explanations, Xerneas and the Kyurems use Pixilate and Refridgerate respectively to boost powerful normal spam attacks like Fake Out, Boomburst, Extremespeed along with coverage like Magma Storm, Volt Switch, Earthquake, Knock off, etc. and Utility moves like Spore and Roost. Mega Gar uses Spooky Plate Judgement sets to avoid imposter and also some Electrify sets to boost up through checks. Mega Mewtwos often are HEAVY hitters with Protean backing them up with the highest attacking stats in the game. Also Mega Ken uses powerful strong STAB V-Creates, fighting STABs and Knock Offs in order to powerhouse through most of the tier. These were mainly just examples. the rest will be in the BHXY Threatlist.

BHXY Threatlist (written with the help of Adrian Marin)

Threats in BHXY

Roles: Pixilate Sweeper, Revenge Killer, Pivot, Prankster, PH Abuser

Sets

Xerneas @ Pixie Plate / Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Lonely Nature / Adamant Nature / Brave Nature

- Boomburst / Recover

- Fake Out

- Extreme Speed

- Earthquake / Sacred Fire

Xerneas @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

IVs: null Atk

Modest / Timid Nature

- Quiver Dance

- Moonblast

- Magma Storm

- Dark Void / Spore

Xerneas @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers

Ability: Prankster

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Bold Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Taunt / Moonblast

- Parting Shot / Topsy Turvy

- Heal Order

- Destiny Bond

Desc:

Roles: Poison Heal Sweeper

Sets

Garchomp-Mega @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature

- Shift Gear

- Low Kick

- Dual Chop

- Sacred Fire

Desc:

Roles: Eviolite Imposter, PH Imposter, Spooky / Earth Plate Imposter, Safety Goggles

Sets

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Final Gambit / Whirlwind / Perish Song

- Fake Out

- Skill Swap

- Parting Shot

Desc:

Roles: PH Imposter, Spooky / Earth Plate Imposter, Safety Goggles Imposter

Sets

Blissey (F) @ Spooky Plate / Toxic Orb / Safety Goggles

Ability: Imposter

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Fake Out / Perish Song / Spore

- Final Gambit / Whirlwind

- Skill Swap

- Parting Shot

Desc:

Roles: Poison Heal Wall, Magic Bouncer

Sets

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Careful Nature

- Heal Order
- Defog

- Knock Off / Nuzzle

- Whirlwind

Giratina @ Leftovers

Ability: Magic Bounce

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef

Sassy Nature

IVs: null Atk / null Spd

- Soft-Boiled

- Aromatherapy

- Defog

- Baton Pass

Desc:

Roles: Unaware Wall, PH Abuse

Sets

Cresselia @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Milk Drink

- Metal Burst

- Heart Swap / Haze

- Spore

Cresselia @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Milk Drink

- Metal Burst

- Heart Swap / Haze / Parting SHot / Baton Pass

- Spore

Desc:

Roles: Revenge Killer, Cleaner

Sets

Kyurem-Black @ Icicle Plate

Ability: Refrigerate

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature

- Fake Out

- ExtremeSpeed

- Stealth Rock (Only if you are using Mbounce Mega Aggron or Registeel)/ - U-turn

- Roost / Earthquake

Desc: (Only use this with a partner that walls Imposter efficiently such as Regenerator Assault Vest Volcanion)

Roles: Refridgerate Nuke, Wallbreaker

Sets

Kyurem-White @ Safety Goggles / Icicle Plate / Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Modest / Timid Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Boomburst

- Magma Storm

- Spore

- Spacial Rend / Fake Out

Desc:

Roles: Protean, Poison Heal, Safety Spore

Sets

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Safety Goggles / *Type* Plate

Ability: Protean

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Modest / Timid Nature

IVs: 0 Atk

- Boomburst / Psystrike / Dark Pulse / Judgment

- Moonblast / Quiver Dance

- Spore

- Magma Storm / Secret Sword

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Psystrike

- Secret Sword

- Spore

- Quiver Dance

Desc:

Roles: Poison Heal, Protean

Sets

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Low Kick / Drain Punch / High Jump Kick

- Knock Off

- Sacred Fire

- Coil / Shift Gear

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Safety Goggles

Ability: Protean

EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Jolly Nature

- Play Rough / Bolt Strike

- V-create / Earthquake / Knock Off

- King’s Shield

- Stealth Rock / Spore

Desc:

Roles: Assault Vest ++ Regenerator, Anti-Kyu-B/W

Sets

Volcanion @ Assault Vest / Safety Goggles / Rocky Helmet

Ability: Regenerator

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 SDef / 252 Def / 252 Spd

Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Nuzzle

- Scald

- Searing Shot

- Volt Switch

Desc:

Roles: Prankster, Regenvest, PH Sweeper

Sets

Kyogre @ Rocky Helmet

Ability: Prankster

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Bold Nature

IVs: null Atk

- Milk Drink

- Parting Shot

- Taunt

- Destiny Bond

Kyogre @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Modest Nature

IVs: null Atk

- Moonblast

- Water Spout

- Quiver Dance

- Spore

Kyogre @ Assault Vest

Ability: Regenerator

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 0 Spd

Sassy Nature

IVs: null Speed

- Nuzzle

- Volt-Switch

- Dragon Tail

- Scald

BHXY Sample Teams

Keep it Playful - Sample Team #1

Kyurem-Black @ Icicle Plate

Ability: Refrigerate

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature

- Fake Out

- ExtremeSpeed

- Sacred Fire

- Rapid Spin

Scizor-Mega @ Rocky Helmet

Ability: Flash Fire

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Impish Nature

- U-turn

- Defog

- Gastro Acid

- Roost

Shedinja @ Lum Berry

Ability: Sturdy

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Lonely Nature

- Endeavor

- Ice Shard

- Recycle

- Baton Pass

Arceus-Fire @ Spooky Plate

Ability: Multitype

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Timid Nature

- Judgment

- Secret Sword

- Tail Glow

- Recover

Giratina @ Safety Goggles

Ability: Mold Breaker

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Careful Nature

- Spore

- Stealth Rock

- Pursuit

- Recover

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb

Ability: Poison Heal

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature

- Facade

- Sacred Fire

- Shift Gear

- Earthquake

• 1k Arrows and Waves

fuck these. THERE'S A REASON WE BANNED SHADOW TAG FROM BH, GODDAMMIT GAME FREAK. Anyways, on a more serious note, I know this is coming from a probably bias stall player but, ban these. Not only do they introduce ridiculous amounts of utility for attacking moves, they make the metagame immensely unhealthy- Thousand Arrows is Smack Down and Earthquake together, basically SmackQuake, sounds like a roid buffed crazy offensive move to me, it's better for any ground sweeper because it can easily remove things like Ho-Oh from the field with a ground type move, while you may just think we'll all get used to not switching our PH Ho-ohs or RegenVester Ohs into Ground type sweepers, we won't because it's simply not healthy. It causes the game to have unnecessary complexity, it cheats the typechart, and like previously mentioned, has too much utility for one move. a move almost as strong as EQ that removes the only immunity to it. It simply makes ground type sweepers too difficult to handle, if we had this in gen 5, it would be banned because of PrankNaturePower + Thousand Arrows is too redic, but you may assume in gen 6 it's ok, yeah sure as a standalone it's very good but not broken, but paired together with Waves it causes a huge breaking of the game. Now let me get into waves. Enter 1k waves, a move you can run on ANY pokemon you so please along with 1k arrows and trap and eliminate any pokemon of your choosing by luring it into a 1k waves, and if it can tank 1k waves, it's not going to dare switchin because of retarded level of power 1k waves has over taming flying switchins. SO basically, for instance, a mega chomp with a custom set can 1k waves a pokemon and sub shift gear all over it and sweep, and in the case of mega chomp, it's so brute strong that no unaware wants to handle it. Or a MM2y can surprise a popular switchin, 1k waves it, and then use a random set in order to take it down for another sweeper or another MM2Y to sweep. SO basically, 1k waves is a broken piece of shit, and 1k arrows only helps it being a broken piece of shit. Ban Waves so Arrows can be somewhat balanced and/or so we can see how good arrows is without the threat of waves

• Knock Off

So yeah, we're talking about it. Again as a stall player this MAY be biased but, I feel as Knock Off needs to be banned, but not for the aforementioned reasons. Knock Off reduces skill from the game immensely. Knock Off only promotes things that are the top of the metagame(Bursters, PH) and demotes creativity and variety. First case Bursters this is a very underrated case though. So the case is: -Ate Bursters using Knock Off to brute their way past AV Regen users, making them develop unecessary cores in order just to stop 1 set of 1 pokemon out of like ~721 possible mons in BH and over 1,000,000 possible combinations. For instance, Knock Off on Aerilate Zard Y to 2HKO Kyogre with Boomburst:

• 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Charizard Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
• 252- Atk Mega Charizard Y Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 8.4% chance to 4HKO
• 252 SpA Aerilate Mega Charizard Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
• 252 SpA Kyogre Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 210-248 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That honestly should not be happening. Not only on Zard Y but on anything, KyuW, Xern, especially Yveltal(STAB k-off) and more. Second Case: Poison Heal Like I stated, K-Off promotes staleness in the BH metagame. Knock Off helps PH users a LOT by not harming them much and pretty much destroying everything else, PH is already the BEST ability in the metagame, and trust me, it doesn't need a buff, the most oft occurance is on PH MM2X and Regigigas which use it to cripple opposing item users and Giratina. More on The crippling of items: This shouldn't be a thing, The ability for any pokemon to remove the key item of any other pokemon for free. Trick actually gives you an odd side effect by you yourself recieving a ptoentially bad item. There were also ways to prevent this, like Mail. However, the only pokemon who can avoid this are ~30 pokemon with 1 specific item per pokemon out of 800 with over 800 items, aka, the Megas with their own mega stone. Which at that point, you might as well be knocked off because your item isn't worth much anyway! All it REALLY does is cap the damage at 65 dmg.

hope this post required you to think n shit, peace.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Are we able to suggest threats and their sets for the threat list because no offense oi but you missed ALOT of threats :P also unaware xerneas is not dead imo (I still use it and it's nice)
Ps we should make a list of cores

 

[Kit Kasai]

Just ban knock off and run Shed Shell chansey :3

 

[Ranger Mike]

One argument that I have as I am against banning koff is that it is not nearly as over centralizing as it is in standard tiers. In bh I still see knock off as a utility move and a way to hit giratina if we ban knock off then there's no way to stop ph cold.

 

[Arcticblast]

I'll explain this in more detail after finals, but I personally am against any bans right now with the exception of all forms of complete trapping. Magnet Pull (should have been included in the original trapping ban anyway), Infestation, Mean Look, Thousand Waves, you get it. Everything. Only exception is Pursuit (which isn't really "trapping" like the rest).

 

[Keep it Playful]

I'll explain this in more detail after finals, but I personally am against any bans right now with the exception of all forms of complete trapping. Magnet Pull (should have been included in the original trapping ban anyway), Infestation, Mean Look, Thousand Waves, you get it. Everything. Only exception is Pursuit (which isn't really "trapping" like the rest).

I believe that removing all forms of trapping will significantly increase the amount of stall in the meta and make it much more difficult to take out Sturdy Shedinja. Most players use status + partially trapping to take care of the bug. With partially trapping gone, then Shedinja will must likely not get status afflicted to it because a player could just switch into a toxic orb mon. Also, Shedinja could run Magic Coat to stop most forms of status infliction (aside from Sacred Fire/Scald/Steam).

Removing Magnet Pull removes a rock solid Chansey counter. I've trapped multiple top players Chanseys with a Magnet Pull steel type and taken ever Chansey out that I've trapped. It's not broken by any means.

Also at least two of the Pokemon on BH teams now generally run U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass/Parting Shot, not to mention the Ghost types that generally show up once or twice on BH teams. That means that on most BH teams, half or 2/3 of the team can't be trapped under normal circumstances. I am against this all trapping removal.

 

[Rumors]

Knock Off is actually one of the weakest ways to stop PH cold. Pecha Trick and Natural Cure Entrainment shut them down much more. Of course, I'm not defending, or offending, Koff here.

Anyway, I can't say much now since I'm on lunch from work. But Koff is one of those things I'm on the fence about. On one hand, it does seriously cripple a lot of sets. On the other, things like Gengar and Shedinja get buffed massively if we remove Koff.

I'm also on the fence about trapping because of reasons already expressed by both sides of that issue.

Sturdinja and Imposter are also two suspects for me since pretty much the entire meta orbits around having checks and counters to just these two. I'd go into a lot more detail, but I don't have time right now and I'd prefer to only tackle them one at a time rather than both. Additionally, sleep clause is another suspect, though it's lower priority to me. Below that are evasion and species clauses, which I would like to have but they aren't really centralizing so they're not important.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Honestly sturdinja is kind of dead (kind of) and as previously stated imposter keeps contrary in check while I don't want to suspect anything since we voted on the ability clause not so long ago, I'd say let's wait a bit however if anything needs a suspect its contrary it is like swagger in terms of how a noob can beat a top player with a mon basically klefki->mm2y

 

[Arcticblast]

I believe that removing all forms of trapping will significantly increase the amount of stall in the meta and make it much more difficult to take out Sturdy Shedinja. Most players use status + partially trapping to take care of the bug. With partially trapping gone, then Shedinja will must likely not get status afflicted to it because a player could just switch into a toxic orb mon. Also, Shedinja could run Magic Coat to stop most forms of status infliction (aside from Sacred Fire/Scald/Steam).

Mold Breaker was everyone's answer to both stall and Shedinja last generation. It hasn't lost any viability this generation from my experience (Poison Heal is more popular but so is Shed) but is criminally underused. And people are using stuff like Entrainment to beat Poison Heal anyway, that kills Shed too. Or, you know, hazards. It's really not a complicated progression.

Removing Magnet Pull removes a rock solid Chansey counter. I've trapped multiple top players Chanseys with a Magnet Pull steel type and taken ever Chansey out that I've trapped. It's not broken by any means.

How is this an argument against trapping being broken? If anything this is the kind of argument that should be used on the pro-ban side - it's an example of trapping being good.

Also at least two of the Pokemon on BH teams now generally run U-turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass/Parting Shot, not to mention the Ghost types that generally show up once or twice on BH teams. That means that on most BH teams, half or 2/3 of the team can't be trapped under normal circumstances.

Point granted (I use momentum-type moves a lot myself, I can't really refute this).

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The main benefit of trapping isn't utility counters to stuff, it's about taking options away from the opponent and giving the user an unfair advantage. It's not broken because of specific metagame trends, it's inherently broken in a metagame where every Pokemon gets every move and ability. Poor distribution (Mega Gengar aside) is the main reason trapping isn't totally fucked in standard play, but when you suddenly have the potential for a Dialga trapping your answer to a defensive set and then setting up you've lost part of what makes the game competitive. At worst it prevents a switch and gives its user the upper hand every time; at best it makes it impossible for the opponent to win the game.

Also, Perish Trap is still Dark-Void-in-Smogon-Doubles stupid.

This post is my incomplete thoughts basically but it'll do for now

 

[Keep it Playful]

Mold Breaker was everyone's answer to both stall and Shedinja last generation. It hasn't lost any viability this generation from my experience (Poison Heal is more popular but so is Shed) but is criminally underused. And people are using stuff like Entrainment to beat Poison Heal anyway, that kills Shed too. Or, you know, hazards. It's really not a complicated progression.

I agree that Mold Breaker is an effective answer to Shedinja and is underused, it's fairly rare in BH these days outside of Moldy Gengar. I agree that it is underused and the meta could fairly easily shift to one with more Mold Breakers like the old days.

How is this an argument against trapping being broken? If anything this is the kind of argument that should be used on the pro-ban side - it's an example of trapping being good.

Well it can be looked at it from that way but it is only "good" if they have an Imposter and if you can bait them into switching into it. If they don't have an Imposter, you have a useless mon on your team. I think that it shows how Magnet Pull can be useful in certain circumstances and should have detailed my thoughts on it a bit more.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The main benefit of trapping isn't utility counters to stuff, it's about taking options away from the opponent and giving the user an unfair advantage. It's not broken because of specific metagame trends, it's inherently broken in a metagame where every Pokemon gets every move and ability. Poor distribution (Mega Gengar aside) is the main reason trapping isn't totally fucked in standard play, but when you suddenly have the potential for a Dialga trapping your answer to a defensive set and then setting up you've lost part of what makes the game competitive. At worst it prevents a switch and gives its user the upper hand every time; at best it makes it impossible for the opponent to win the game.

I indeed may be looking at it from the wrong perspective. I'll be more open about it. Well I wouldn't say that trapping is an unfair advantage, what is fair or unfair? If I trick an Assault Vest (using Klutz) to a Bounce Registeel and it completely shuts it down because it had only support moves is it fair? As with the poor distribution, one could argue the same for many other strong abilities, such as Poison Heal. Breloom with PH has terrible defenses and loses every time to Talonflame (unless perhaps Bre has a sub). But a PH Gigas with Facade/Knock Off/Sacred Fire/Shift Gear not only hits an Imposter harder, it can burn them further giving the PH an unfair advantage right?

I agree that defensive sets don't like getting trapped, because they can't fight back. Most defensive sets should have some kind of fleeing move or they are running a huge risk against Mean Look. Setup with trapping can be very dangerous and can win a lot of games, but a Prankster d-bond can shut all that hard work down in one turn.