Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Nimbus125]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-definition-of-uber.3460453/ It's a little different than what BP is, but it sums it up entirely.
"A Pokemon is Uber if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing." THIS is why BP is being considered to be nerfed. In the X/Y OU metagame it dominates pretty much any team and forces everybody else to have to edit every single team in order to stand a chance against it, making the OU tier revolve around it. Whether it's counterable is not a decent argument, because every counter is obscure and only work for BP for the most part.

 

[branflakes]

Why I believe Iron Defense + BP ban would be good is that it evens things out a bit. Other bans would send the use of Baton Pass chains to niche. By banning Iron Defense, Scolipede becomes a dedicated Speed Booster. One main reason he's broken is that he can Iron Defense against physical attackers and outspeed special attackers on the pass (additional note that there are no priority special moves apart from the uncommon Vacuum Wave which hardly dents Scolipede anyway) into Sylveon or Mew. With the ban of Iron Defense, Scolipede can't afford to boost in front of attack set up.

This would give offensive teams a better shot against BP. Stall teams would still have some trouble but in my opinion even stall is getting slightly monotonous with Chansey, Skarmory, Quagsire, and Venusaur on nearly every team with very few counters such a Medicham-Mega (which is checked by Sableye/Aegislash). Stall teams would still be a pain to offensive teams even if they had to include a BP counter or two. They could even include a single offensive setup.

So compared to the current uneven Baton Pass >> Stall >> Offensive

It would become somewhat cyclic and only slightly imbalanced matchups: Baton Pass > Stall > Offensive > Baton Pass

I believe this post deserves some more attention and discussion, especially the first point. Scolipede's ability to boost defense so quickly in a match is one of BP's best buffs in gen VI. A ban on Iron Defense + BP would essentially nerf Baton Pass to the point of only being slightly better than in Gen V with the addition of Sylveon and Scolipede being only slightly better than Ninjask. More importantly, I don't see any reason that Iron Defense + BP would be used outside of a full Baton Pass team. Therefore it seems to be the least limiting not-so-complicated method of nerfing Baton Pass.

 

[AlphaSpade]

Espeon should be banned, because its role in the metagame is to lock down tactics used to deal with Full Baton Pass teams (i.e. Whirlwind/Roar, Taunt, etc.), therefore requiring teams to use somewhat unconventional tactics (i.e. Haze Quagsire) to deal with Full Baton Pass teams.

"Espeon isn't broken by itself!"

w/e. How often do you see renegade Espeons to begin with? It's only use/role is to cockblock BP checks. Ban Espeon and checking/countering BP becomes a whole lot simpler.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Can a mod please remove all future posts that degrade the conversation back to the argument of Baton Pass counters in OU?

If you are pro ban, please argue why all aspects of Baton Pass need removed.

If you are pro nerf, please argue what nerf you would take. Please keep in mind there are many different aspects of Baton Pass in the game, and you may unintentionally ban some playstyles if your nerf isn't specific enough.

If you are anti-ban, please argue that Baton Pass is not overcentralizing. It is well known that stall teams in particular are weak to Baton Pass and have no viable solution to Baton Pass without hurting their chances at winning against the remaining meta. In your argument. please explain why it is okay for Stall to lose the majority of games against Baton Pass. (i.e. Its okay because stall > HO > BP > stall)

 

[isaak]

First off, I would like to introduce myself as a somewhat competitive player. My PS usernames are isaac.ramen, REAL RYDER, and per sé. Back in December, both isaac.ramen, and per sé were all in the 2000s. I consider myself to be a pretty decent player, with a good understanding of the metagame.
1. Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Not exactly. However, I find that baton pass teams require no skill to run, and ruins the fun of competitive battle. Now, I know I used, 'fun' and 'competitive' in the same sentence, but I consider myself to be a somewhat competitive player, usually playing around the 1600s-1700s (on REAL RYDER. Obviously this fluctuates if I lose games). However, I find it as a illegitimate strategy for winning, and ruins the game for people who are trying to win with real teams. People claim that there are ways to get around Baton pass, but in my opinion this requires other players to run specific Pokemon to counter baton passing teams, such as Bisharp. Will this over-centralize the metagame? If this continues, yes. It frustrates me that I spend time building a quality team, and watch it get destroyed by a cookie-cutter team that really takes very little skill and prediction to play effectively.

2. If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
The biggest issues for me are Magic Bounce Espeon, which obviously cannot be banned, as it is perfectly viable on a regular team, and Pokemon like smeargle, who can set up ingrain, and prevent phazing. I know smeargle is with ingrain is less common, but when it has happened to me, it really got me upset. I didn't even know that you could not roar out a Pokemon who had ingrained. Scolipede is pretty annoying too, with decent defenses, with speed boost, having something Ninjask never had.
Should any of the above Pokemon be banned?
Of course not. There would have to be an arrangement that would obviously have to be made. All are relatively easy to deal with on their own, but when put together with baton pass are a huge pain in neck.

3. Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Perhaps. Sure, a boosted dragonite, or a boosted Kyurem Black would be pretty threatening, but can be combated.

4. Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Baton pass is a cool move, sort of like volt switch, and u-turn, that gives switch initiative, but avoids trapping moves, like pursuit. I used to run Baton Pass on my Celebi last generation to bait a Tyranitar's pursuit, and and BP into my Terrakion to get a +1 Justified boost. However, I think trying to come up with a combination ban of sorts is hard to me, and should be left to other users with better judgement than me.

 

[some hero]

Actually both Espeon and Scolipede should be banned, for different reasons. Espeon is obvious and better stated above, Scolipede though because the combination of Speed Boost, Baton Pass and having a mediocre typing(as opposed to horrendous like Ninjask) is overpowered. Both in the form of Baton Pass and i theorize if Espeon does indeed get banned in offensive teams as not everyone runs a Talonflame. I do think Scolipede can become dominant down the line and is ban worthy. Sort of how Salamences' power became obvious after the removal of bigger threats.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Espeon should be banned, because its role in the metagame is to lock down tactics used to deal with Full Baton Pass teams (i.e. Whirlwind/Roar, Taunt, etc.), therefore requiring teams to use somewhat unconventional tactics (i.e. Haze Quagsire) to deal with Full Baton Pass teams.


w/e. How often do you see renegade Espeons to begin with? It's only use/role is to cockblock BP checks. Ban Espeon and checking/countering BP becomes a whole lot simpler.

Would you support a conditional ban on Magic Bounce and Stored Power if you have more than 3 Baton Passers? These are Espeons sell points as part of a chain. But stand alone, Espeon is still great in OU for denying hazards and setting up to sweep with calm mind. Are we sure we want to remove an entire pokemon?

This is much like banning Excadrill in OU because of its ability. I know its simpler, but stall, balanced and hyper offense can all make sure of Espeon. Specs, Setup Sweeper, or Utility sets are all viable. Why not perserve those, and eliminate the Baton Pass set by removing Magic Bounce and Stored Power if you are above X number of Baton Passers.

 

[asbdsp]

Unprecedented in it's nature and complexity? Certain Gen 3 rulesets involved a BP clause where no more than two BP pokemon can be used. That's a direct precedent. I agree with the second part of the quote, though: three BP users can be used in the same way that a team of four or five or six are. That's why the cap should be two: you cant have a broken chain with two pokemon.

Sorry, I was unaware of an earlier ban on bp working in that matter. I was under the impression that smogon policy was against such complex bans, hence the controversy over a metagame shaping decision like Aldaron's proposal in Gen V.

I still believe however, that a cap on the move bp would be unneccesarily complex, given simpler solutions, not to mention, ultimately arbitrary as its hard to define exactly what we're trying to reach by placing it at 3 instead of 4 or 2 instead of 3.

 

[WhiteQueen]

A Baton Pass team is not broken; it's just retarded to play against. Every time I see that stupid team on the ladder, I just forfeit because I have no desire to play against it. Waste of time. It takes away any competitive edge and it certainly takes away from anything fun about a Pokemon battle. I don't think any individual Pokemon with the move Baton Pass is broken or annoying. It's when an entire team is revolved around that strategy that makes it unbearably obnoxious. So to solve this noncompetitive play style, we could limit the number of Baton Pass user a team is allowed to have--a maximum of three--just the same way we limited it in ADV.

 

[TheCuttingEdge]

I've never touched BP myself, but it really feels like getting a suitable nerf (not breaking BP completely) without being too complex is the real challenge. However, there is a lot of talk over Espeon and Scolipede as the "problem children" of the strat (But only within the boundaries of Baton Pass teams are they a problem). With that in mind, could any of these be possible?

• Ban Substitute + Speed Boost on the same Pokemon. Could be too minor, but does mean Scolipede either has to pass, or stand and face a hit to Iron Defense up. An extra plus is that it only affects Baton Passers without touching Baton Pass itself, though it may clip a normal team's Scolipede/Ninjask BP set.
• Ban Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team. Free Speed-ups or Phaze insurance - builder's choice. Forces Ingrain which could add predictibilty to the strat, allowing counter opportunities. Some collateral for teambuilding with this, things like M-Absol and Scolipede can't play together, though it's pretty minor and harms BP more than any other potential team.
• Ban Iron Defense + Speed Boost on the same Pokemon. Again might be too minor, but does mean Scolipede must play only as a bulkier Ninjask... Stacking speed only with Sub and Protect, or facing hits to Swords Dance.
• Ban Magic Bounce + Stored Power on the same team. Forcing the choice of either security for your boosts, or access to a more potent sweeping move. Could be way too minor (just boost up and pass to a threat with impeccable coverage and wallbreaking potential instead, turning it into a lethal sweeper that can't be walled) but worth a mention at least.

Again, these might be too minor, but I feel they target Baton Pass well, while minimizing collateral. It's uncommon, but I don't see why we should kill the strat completely, or make it so shaky that people just don't bother.

 

[MilkyWay]

There is obviously a problem with Baton Pass teams, but the move itself nor the pokemon with it are broken alone, it's when they all come together on one team that makes the strategy broken. With that said, i think there are a few reasonable nerfs we could enforce that don't ban single pokemon or make baton pass teams unviable.

Ban Magic Bounce + Speed Boost on the same team
This would make it so the player has to choose between using Scolipede and easily setting up multiple boosts or using Espeon and protecting them. These two pokemon are as of now staples on any serious Baton Pass team and limiting a player to only one would make it a little more fai

Only Allow Three Pokemon to use Baton Pass on the same team
With only 3 pokemon capable of keeping boosts alive, Baton Pass becomes much harder to use meaning unskilled players cannot just setup a ton of boosts and have an answer to almost anything. Right now Baton Pass is so easy to use and with this rule it would take a lot more skill and a good team to use Baton Pass effectively.

Obviously we have many options to nerf Baton Pass, but personally I think these two are the best. As I see it they would both nerf Baton Pass back to a viable but not overcentralizing strategy without really taking away from the viablity of any pokemon commonly used for Baton Pass teams.

 

[Timurid_5]

Espeon should be banned, because its role in the metagame is to lock down tactics used to deal with Full Baton Pass teams (i.e. Whirlwind/Roar, Taunt, etc.), therefore requiring teams to use somewhat unconventional tactics (i.e. Haze Quagsire) to deal with Full Baton Pass teams.


w/e. How often do you see renegade Espeons to begin with? It's only use/role is to cockblock BP checks. Ban Espeon and checking/countering BP becomes a whole lot simpler.

Aside from this, can someone find usage statistics for Espeon per team? I swear I see more non-BP Espeon than people say.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I've never touched BP myself, but it really feels like getting a suitable nerf (not breaking BP completely) without being too complex is the real challenge. However, there is a lot of talk over Espon and Scolipede as the "problem children" of the strat (But only within the boundaries of Baton Pass teams are they a problem). With that in mind, could any of these be possible?

• Ban Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on the same team. Free Speed-ups or Phaze insurance - builder's choice. Forces Ingrain which could add predictibilty to the strat, allowing counter opportunities. Some collateral for teambuilding with this, things like M-Absol and Scolipede can't play together, though it's pretty minor and harms BP more than any other potential team.
• Ban Magic Bounce + Stored Power on the same team. Forcing the choice of either security for your boosts, or access to a more potent sweeping move. Could be way too minor (just boost up and pass to a threat with impeccable coverage and wallbreaking potential instead, turning it into a lethal sweeper that can't be walled) but worth a mention at least.

These two nerfs would still allow people play any style of Baton they enjoy. I support both of these.

The other two, Banning the combination of Substitute + Speed Boost or Iron Defense + Speed Boost, are hurting Ninjask and Scolipede as individuals and not truly solving the problem. Both are great at quick passing and should be allowed to continue to fulfill that role.

I know that these are all complex bans and Smogon prefers to stick with simpler bans, but as I stated in earlier posts, Baton Pass is a complex move with multiple uses. It should be expected that the ban needs to be complex if we are only trying to nerf Defensive Baton Pass teams (specifically in relation to stall teams).

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

A Baton Pass team is not broken; it's just retarded to play against. Every time I see that stupid team on the ladder, I just forfeit because I have no desire to play against it. Waste of time. It takes away any competitive edge and it certainly takes away from anything fun about a Pokemon battle. I don't think any individual Pokemon with the move Baton Pass is broken or annoying. It's when an entire team is revolved around that strategy that makes it unbearably obnoxious. So to solve this noncompetitive play style, we could limit the number of Baton Pass user a team is allowed to have--a maximum or three--, just the same way we limited it in ADV.

I agree with this assessment... A lot of people in this thread earlier mentioned that in order to beat BP you should punch it in the mouth early to stunt its momentum...

However, not all teams are built with this capability... and that's not to say that the player didn't take BP into consideration when building the team... however, when determining their endgame... they postulated that the game might go at least 25+ turns on average....

BP doesn't go this long as within the first 6 turns, you could possibly going up an Espeon with +2 Speed, SpA & SpD and a 120 Base Power Stored Power that can't be phazed out...

With that in mind... I quit too... BP is so Team Preview dependent and if I see that I'm going up against one... I rather take the L and just keep it moving...

That's my take on it... I would postulate Bans but that doesn't matter here... this thread is to simply voice whether BP is healthy for the meta or not... which for me... is so NOT healthy for the game...

 

[Awagarb]

Actually both Espeon and Scolipede should be banned, for different reasons. Espeon is obvious and better stated above, Scolipede though because the combination of Speed Boost, Baton Pass and having a mediocre typing(as opposed to horrendous like Ninjask) is overpowered. Both in the form of Baton Pass and i theorize if Espeon does indeed get banned in offensive teams as not everyone runs a Talonflame. I do think Scolipede can become dominant down the line and is ban worthy. Sort of how Salamences' power became obvious after the removal of bigger threats.

Neither Scolipede nor Espeon are broken in any way. Their "best sets" dont work without the rest of this specific BP team supporting them. Scolipede's boosts would be trivial to handle if there was no magic bounce or ingrain to secure them, while Espeon wouldnt be a huge threat if Vaporeon and Sylveon werent there to check most of his counters. There is no proof that you couldnt fix the problem by banning other core members instead.
Scapegoating all the blame of a broken team into its current biggest offenders is akin to banning Politoed or Klefki to nerf weather and swagplay teams : its lazy, causes more harm than good in the long run, may not even fix the problem and has no merit outside of "preventing" a slippery slope of complex bans.

 

[preserve]

Let's stop focusing on a single replay. Yeah, that replay is relevant here since it shows how a well built Baton Pass team can easily win even against a team that is prepared for it, but that's just anecdotal evidence. And, anyway, we're not looking for evidence here, but rather for good arguments on whether Baton Pass needs to be nerfed and, if so, in which way.

Weren't you the one who was asking for evidence before when you asked people to explain why they want a limit of 2-3 baton pass users instead of 4-6? Next, I want to explain why I think we should limit the number of baton pass on a single team to any other complex ban say like Speed boost+Baton Pass or Magic Bounce+Baton Pass. Speed Boost Scolipede with baton pass is not broken on its own. So is Magic Bounce Espeon with Speed boost. We don't lose any viable users or play styles by limiting the number of baton pass users in one team. Technically, having 6 individual baton pass sweepers isn't really broken, though I have never seen someone use that team because it's generally ineffective.

If we are going to limit the number of baton pass users on a team, then I think limit the number to only 3, maybe even two. With a full baton pass team you need several things to make it successful. You need a speed booster, a magic bouncer, a soundproofer, a smeargle for a back up ingrain or spore, a roar pokemon for set up pokemon, and a defense/special defenisve booster. If we limit the number of baton pass on a team to 3, you will have to choose the 3 best pokemon to fill the roles of the other 6 and I don't think there is enough room for that. Scolipede and Espeon are a must and the third can either be smeargle,vaporeon or sylveon. You might be able to succeed with scolipede, espeon and sylveon, but it would be difficult, thus nerfing baton pass teams.

Also, I don't think baton pass teams should be considered a play style like all the others. I think I've and other people mentioned this before but people are still seeing baton pass teams as an equivalent play style like all the others. Stall, balance and hyper offensive all have a chance of beating each other. While hyper offensive has the best chance at beating baton pass teams it can still fail, and yes other play styles can fail against others. But when you lost all momentum with your hyper offensive team against a baton pass team, you have literally no chance of coming backing.

 

[haunter]

Weren't you the one who was asking for evidence before when you asked people to explain why they want a limit of 2-3 baton pass users instead of 4-6?

I never asked for evidence since such evidence does simply not exist. It would be a probatio diabolica, so to say. I asked for concrete examples, which is completely different. Read my posts before making sarcastic and irrelevant comments.

 

[DarksaintJP]

BP is a cancer in the the skill based meta game smogon strives towards. Magic bounce makes its is where it is near impossible to do anything to the opposing team, especially if said BP team has defense boost and ends with a full health dragonite behind a sub, dragon dancing. None of the pokemon who use BP are broken, (banning pokemon over the use of one move is ridiculous) it's just that full BP teams are broken. I know there are uses for BP outside of full BP teams, but I have never seen anyone use BP outside of full BP teams. It would be simpler to just ban the move as a whole.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

I am alive after, like, 2 months of being dead!

Let's get to it:


I am pro-nerf. As a stall player, I often lost against baton pass teams (and for some idiotic reason I just assumed that I was just bad at pokemon). Plenty of arguments earlier have been made in terms of stall v. baton pass but let me recap here why I think this is such a stunted machup:

Espeon stops all entry hazards, and bounces back taunt and phaze moves. Oh yeah, it also has Stored Power, which blows up many defensive pokemon.
The ability to Ingrain + sub is extremely annoying, since stall does not have the power to break through the subs.

My aim here is to provide an answer to these.
1. I think BP should be kept as a viable play-style, but not be so absolutely borked like it is right now. In short, Espeon should still be able to do its job, but cannot be so exceedingly good.

So here is my complex ban:
1. Espeon cannot run baton pass and stored power at the same time - Espeon can still sweep with Psychic. The synergy between baton pass and stored power is simply too good. Quickpass over some speed, get ingrain subs up, and boost continaully. There is little stall (and many other play-styles too) can do for this. If the team wants to use espeon to sweep, they cannot benefit from magic bounce as easily. Or they can run psychic, and be able to use magic bounce more liberally.
2. Teams with 3 or more baton passers cannot have substitute on those pokemon. No pokemon can have baton pass and ingrain/aqua ring - Espeon is stupidly powerful because Scolipede can pass it speed and def, and it can set up subs and boost freely. Banning sub makes it so that BP teams have to be careful about the situations in which they shove espeon into. Rely on it too much and it will eventually die, especialy since it cannot be passed ingrain/aqua ring. This complex ban also allows some pokemon to quickpass subs, which is fine. However, subs on complete baton pass chains is really stupid, especially since the pokemon get so many defensive boosts.

Well, that's a wrap. Feel free to comment/question/criticize or whatever.

 

[rachet67]

BP is a cancer in the the skill based meta game smogon strives towards. Magic bounce makes its is where it is near impossible to do anything to the opposing team, especially if said BP team has defense boost and ends with a full health dragonite behind a sub, dragon dancing. None of the pokemon who use BP are broken, (banning pokemon over the use of one move is ridiculous) it's just that full BP teams are broken. I know there are uses for BP outside of full BP teams, but I have never seen anyone use BP outside of full BP teams. It would be simpler to just ban the move as a whole.

The move has a lot of use other than on full BP teams, such as quick passing to pass offensive boosts to sweepers, or dry passing, to gain the switch initiative and to escape the effects of pursuit (such as Espeon and Celebi). This RMT is a good example of quick passing (even though it wouldn't work as well anymore) and it reached #2 on the ladder last gen: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-passport-to-victory-peaked-2.3482311/

Its honestly not that difficult to just ban the number of BP users per team, or just ban Speed Boost+Magic Guard on the same team, and both these bans have much less collateral damage.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

I know there are uses for BP outside of full BP teams, but I have never seen anyone use BP outside of full BP teams. It would be simpler to just ban the move as a whole.

In my previous post I tried to give some common examples of the various styles of Baton Pass. While I agree banning Baton Pass makes it easier, I would hate to see several playstyles and pokemon get unnecessarily nerfed because one very niche aspect of Baton Pass can be abused. (i.e., we didn't ban all pokemon with swift swim or drizzle, Instead we banned the specific combination that caused the problem).

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

If anything just ban Substitute + Baton Pass on the same Pokemon. A Pokemon behind a sub could easily avoid crits, Encores, could use free turns to set up even more, and a bulky Substitute with some defense boosts could be almost impossible to break.

 

[Aragorn the King]

If anything just ban Substitute + Baton Pass on the same Pokemon. A Pokemon behind a sub could easily avoid crits, Encores, could use free turns to set up even more, and a bulky Substitute with some defense boosts could be almost impossible to break.

Not going against your intentions or anything, but just a fact, encore goes through Substitute.

 

[Dusknoir64]

I feel that this issue is being taken at from the wrong angle. If we ban individual pokemon, there's the problem of that pokemon having other options, and we would be banning only one way to use it, by banning the whole pokemon. It's like nuking an anthill, yeah you'll get rid of the ants, but you'll create some bigger problems in the processes. And if we ban baton pass, that move is only truly broken when you have an entire team dedicated to it. However, I feel the true solution is to bad these teams core concept, by banning the use of having 3 or more pokemon with batton pass.

 

[trc]

Substitute + Baton Pass makes it more manageable yes, but you don't solve the problem at all. All that happens is that they boost defensively until you can't break through them, until your only way of winning is by obtaining a critical hit.

Also, Hiphiphooray, your suggestion is totally absurd. It's incredibly complex, yet has no anecdotal evidence to back up why this solution would work at all. You seem to only want to nerf Baton Pass to a point where the community will be happy just so you can use it.