Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Der Richter]

I'm confused. Is he a worse theorymon because Rhyperior is bad, or because Rhyperior is good and doesn't need a lot of help?

Let me quote myself.

"Slack Off Rhyperior: that would help a lot, but still, low Spdf, and many weaknesses, especially two x4 (and one is maybe the most common attacking type) would make its life kinda hard. I honestly can see this becoming a good physical offensive wall, but this won't help that much."

Rhyperior isn't terrible, but has many problems, and Slack Off wouldn't help that much. In comparison, the other three get better stuff to work with.

 

[Salemance]

Let me quote myself.

"Slack Off Rhyperior: that would help a lot, but still, low Spdf, and many weaknesses, especially two x4 (and one is maybe the most common attacking type) would make its life kinda hard. I honestly can see this becoming a good physical offensive wall, but this won't help that much."

Rhyperior isn't terrible, but has many problems, and Slack Off wouldn't help that much. In comparison, the other three get better stuff to work with.

If you say so. I have always seen him over coming said weaknesses with ease and for a physical wall, yes its a pity he is weak to two common physical attack types, but that's like blaming Blissey for having horrible defense to a primarily physical weakness. I only take offense for saying it can't overcome these because I use it quite regularly. He can't wall everything? Gee, I didn't know that!

again, sorry if I came off as annoyed but the response seems so cookie cutter that I have to counter it in one form or another.

 

[Der Richter]

If you say so. I have always seen him over coming said weaknesses with ease and for a physical wall, yes its a pity he is weak to two common physical attack types, but that's like blaming Blissey for having horrible defense to a primarily physical weakness. I only take offense for saying it can't overcome these because I use it quite regularly. He can't wall everything? Gee, I didn't know that!

again, sorry if I came off as annoyed but the response seems so cookie cutter that I have to counter it in one form or another.

No problem, man. Blissey has a better defensive typing (weak only to Fight and immune to Ghost, and the latter in this gen is huge).
Rhyperior just hasn't the numbers to be premier OU. That's not like saying he's useless (hell, last gen I used pretty well Lickilicky in OU, and btw, that thing is grossly underrated), but Slack Off won't help him that much in a tier where special water moves just go wild.

 

[Salemance]

No problem, man. Blissey has a better defensive typing (weak only to Fight and immune to Ghost, and the latter in this gen is huge).
Rhyperior just hasn't the numbers to be premier OU. That's not like saying he's useless (hell, last gen I used pretty well Lickilicky in OU, and btw, that thing is grossly underrated), but Slack Off won't help him that much in a tier where special water moves just go wild.

Ya did huh? That's great. I always hated him (his wishes are too damn good :(). And its like the conundrum we may never answer: Donphan is OU but Hippowdon isn't based off Usage? So damn silly.

So with Rhyperior gone a d everyone going gaga over Prankster user, does Druddigon and Toge have the chance to win? Hopefully Drudd does as heis now my frontrunner.

 

[aesf]

Prankster Gourgeist: I don't know about any other people, but this thing would just be cancer to me. All hopes you had of having a fun match, be it stall or HO, suddenly disappear. This thing is just a gliscor with priority sub + leech seed. You can will-o-wisp to kill physical attackers, toxic or disable to ruin any wall, or just leech seed + sub + protect to stop any attackers. The only things i see that are stopping this are: A. Talonflame flare blitz + flying stab 2. Taunt 3. grass-poison special attackers (cough mega venu cough).

I don't know how bad this will be for the meta, but it's gonna annoy me alot, since it's really a whimsicott with bulk and will-o-wisp

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah sorry guys, i had the old rankings in my mind, and didn't remember that Rjyperior went to B- recently. We will have to go with three theorymons for this round...

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Yeah sorry guys, i had the old rankings in my mind, and didn't remember that Rjyperior went to B- recently. We will have to go with three theorymons for this round...

Does it really matter that much? Having one low B- poke won't exactly shatter anything about theorymon, especially since its fucking Rypherior

 

[alexwolf]

Does it really matter that much? Having one low B- poke won't exactly shatter anything about theorymon, especially since its fucking Rypherior

Rules are rules.

 

[Inspirited]

Do you guys actually think prankster gourgeist would be balanced though? It seems to me like a ridiculously huge buff that would limit teambuilding. Here's the way I see gourgeist: when you are against it, you either have the option of dying (unless you have very high base speed AND access to priority which isnt mach punch or extremespeed) or you can switch out, and let gourgeist put up a sub and leech seed you / will-o-wisp you and cripple someone in your team. Almost all priority in ou is physical, so even your "counters" are pretty easily dealt with on the switch. The fact that she has two different types of stall damage (leech seed and will-o-wisp) and no-one is immune to both, plus is near guaranteed to get a kill with priority destiny bond. Not taking up a mega slot means gourgeist is always going to be trading its life for something on equal importance or greater, and before that it has an actually decent chance to cripple things due to the switches that sub+priority d-bond will cause. throw gourgeist on a team with a win-condition with very few defensive checks and you can basically force your opponent to lose that check unless they have a great answer to subseed/will-o-wisp.
Can someone who disagrees provide their reasoning so I can try and like this idea? :\ Or perhaps Red Cat you can tell me why you think it would be manageable in the metagame? I know its just a support mon, but it seems to be near impossible to stop from taking out a team member which is reaally difficult for stall to deal with as a playstyle, as well as other playstyles that rely on longevity or putting more importance in one pokemon (eg. any team with a mega). I know you can play mind games and predict the destiny bond and protect your mega, but gourgeist is still going to get a 1 for 1 trade which makes it an instant pick for teambuilding when there is no risk in adding her to your team.

I second everything in here, this thing looks like a game breaker and I have no idea how it got past Alex. Other opinions and reasoning are always welcome though.

Magic guard, bouncers, priority taunt.
But yeah, a wow/leech seed/sub/destiny bond set is gonna give everyone nightmares.

Remember that Gourgiest has Ghost STAB moves to deal with Bouncers and Magic Guard abusers. I honestly don't think it should run 4 non attacking moves in the first place and should use Ghost STAB (Phantom Force would go great with Leech Seed and Will o but Shadow Sneak is the way to go) in place of DBond. The only thing stopping it that I see are Taunt users who risk getting burned or seeded in the process unless their name is Thundurus.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Wow, I like these submissions.

Thick Fat Togekiss : That's huge ! He is not only a premier CharX counter, but a complete Charizard counter :
Togekiss Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EV: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD
Bold nature
- Roost / Wish
- Heal Bell / Protect
- Dazzling Gleam / Air Slash
- Thunder Wave

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Thick Fat Togekiss in Sun: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Honestly, the only move that really matters here (against Charizard) is Thunder Wave. Togekiss struggles to deal damages to Charizard, but a T-Waved Zard is a dead Zard. Then, you can run whatever utility you want. Aside from Charizard, you are better against Victini, Volcarona and Entei... And he counters the whole classic coverage alongside Dragon (Fighting / Fire / Ground --> Classic MegaChomp is walled). That's not much, in fact, because a lot of things with Fire-moves can still annoy Togekiss. Banded Talonflamme 2KOes with BB, SpDef Heatran didn't do any relevant damages.
And about the Ice neutrality, it's great against Mamoswine (Icicle Crash does not 2KOes... but you only 3KOes), Kyurem (rare) and Weavile. But I guess it's nice.
But still, the ability to be a nearly surefire Charizard counter is amazing. And he does not lose that much : offensive set likes the opportunities to come-in granted by Thick Fat too.

Steel / Dragon Druddigon
This is my least favorite. I mean, Dragon / Steel is a good typing, and he would have Sheer Force Iron Head I believe but... He still has only decent bulk (77/90/90 is not impressive). I don't know what he can do. A bulky set (with Glare / Dragon Tail) ? He direly lack any kind of recovery (even a Drain Punch-like would be decent) and Garchomp has a much better bulk. Remember he is still weak to Fire / Ground / Fighting. Because of it's Dragon typing, he can't really check Fairies (he is still slower than M-Mawile for fuck'sake). When you look at the most impressive threats of the metagame, Druddigon just does nothing. M-Pinsir stomps him at +2, Char-X has the only problem of taking a huge chunk of recoil damages through Rough Skin but it could be worse, M-Gyarados has Earthquake and normal Gyarados may sub on him (hard though)... What is its niche ? He can't take on anything in the metagame, except Scizor, Venusaur (bar Leech Seed. Considering he can't do anything in return, that's big), mayyyyybe Clefable (I doubt he can stomach Sylveon), Ferrothorn bar Leech Seed, Zapdos and Rotom (who will burn him).
I just have no clue on why should I use him. A Fairy-slayer Dragon ? I doubt it.7

Prankster Gourgheist
Wow, that's gonna be a thing. Like others said, a Disable / Sub / WoW / Leech Seed set is just so freakin' annoying. He is really bulky so you can't really hope to kill before he starts burning you. You will want something with Infiltrator to deal with this, which means Crobat (who will be burnt, yay) or Noivern. Else, rely on something like Celebi to absorb the WoW but it's just so annoying. Honestly, even though it seems really a great and interesting buff, I don't want it. Just because he would so (yeah I'm repeating myself) annoying. Bulk, priority burn, priority sub... What else ?
You could also run Choice Spec Exploud, hah.
But I will definitely second other people here. I just don't see how to deal with him once he switch in on one of your Pokemon, apart of some obscure sets (Noivern being the most common. Yeah.)

 

[Blizzardhail]

Prankster Gourgiest is all the pranksters I hate in one pokemon. From sub seeding to priority Will-O-Wisping, this prankster has it all. Thundurus will see a spike to its already massive usage to counter this theorymon. It's a theorymon I would like in theory. But in real life it would be so annoying I will never play the theorymon ladder ever again

Thick Fat Togekiss is interesting. It's gonna be like a massive stallfest. Only steels and poisons and rock types can stop this defensive behemoth. It's already good bulk helps take weak stray non-STABed SE attacks. Garchomps will have to run poison jab to deal with this theorymon.

Dragon/Steel Druddigon
I never liked Druddigon. It taking the typing of my beloved Dialga won't help it. It's only niche is a Dragon type Fairy slayer than is defeated by Azumarills with Superpower that were meant to deal with Ferrothorns. Fighting type still run rampant and that doesn't make Druddigon's life easier. The attack is impressive in RU and the ability good, but I fail to see how this will make a splash is OU

 

[En Passant]

Thick Fat Togekiss - So it walls the Megazards now. We've done this concept already with Dragon/Fairy Altaria and Flash Fire Gourgeist, so I don't think it's worth yet another discussion. Outside of that, it loses its Ice weakness, gains a Fire resistance, and also doesn't have a way to hit the Fire- and Water-types that are going to be using these moves very hard.

Dragon/Steel Druddigon - Druddigon becomes the only natural Dragon-type that is not weak to Fairies that would otherwise prevent its powerful Outrage. However, it doesn't do anything to solve its mediocre bulk and terrible Speed, which is compounded by added Fighting and Ground weaknesses. It could have a niche under Trick Room, but TR itself needs a buff (A Room extending item will come one of these generations...) before that can happen.

Prankster Gourgeist - Another of those "what the hell are you doing" mons. It has all of the positives of the other Pranksters (Meganette's DBond and usable Attack, Sableye's recovery (sort of, with Pain Split) and Trick, Whimsy's SubSeed) AND unlike them, has good bulk*. The fact that its Grass-typing leaves it weak to Talonflame and Mega Pinsir's priorities is actually irrelevant as the other Pranksters don't fare any better.

*I imagine that we're talking about Gourgeist-H here, as Speed doesn't matter too much when using priority. If it IS important, I will make note that Gourgeist-A is the largest size that outspeeds Mega Scizor (Gourgeist-L outspeeds normal Scizor) and Meganette.

 

[Kabu]

Remember he is still weak to Fire / Ground / Fighting.

Dragon would neutralize the Fire weakness.

Also, sure, a Fighting and Ground weakness is kind of bad, but when its getting rid of a Fairy and Ice weakness (which are arguably worse considering Fairy types have flooded the damn tier and Ice is and has always been an amazing and pretty common offensive typing) then the benefits outweigh the costs. Nothing is immune to Ice, nothing is immune to Fairy. But you could easily switch in a ghost for Fighting-type moves and you could easily switch in a bird for Ground-type moves.

 

[some hero]

Dragon would neutralize the Fire weakness.

Also, sure, a Fighting and Ground weakness is kind of bad, but when its getting rid of a Fairy and Ice weakness (which are arguably worse considering Fairy types have flooded the damn tier and Ice is and has always been an amazing and pretty common offensive typing) then the benefits outweigh the costs. Nothing is immune to Ice, nothing is immune to Fairy. But you could easily switch in a ghost for Fighting-type moves and you could easily switch in a bird for Ground-type moves.

No they aren't. You're trading niche, mostly used as coverage weaknesses for the two most common physical attacking types in the game. If you're a physical attacker, you're running either a ground or a fighting move. Druggidon getting a steel typing is just plain terrible. It's slow as hell, and 120 attack isn't even impressive. It does nothing well, it can't switch in against any physical attacker and once on the field he's just going to be taken out by anything faster.

But back to your point, being weak to Ice and Fairy wasn't Drugs problem it was his terrible speed and mediocre defenses. Well guess what? You removed two inconsequential weaknesses and then decided to make him weak to the two most common physical attacking types. Great job you just made a slow as hell pokemon that can't do anything when in a battle weak to half the meta.

 

[alexwolf]

Wow, I like these submissions.

Thick Fat Togekiss : That's huge ! He is not only a premier CharX counter, but a complete Charizard counter :
Togekiss Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EV: 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD
Bold nature
- Roost / Wish
- Heal Bell / Protect
- Dazzling Gleam / Air Slash
- Thunder Wave

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Thick Fat Togekiss in Sun: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Honestly, the only move that really matters here (against Charizard) is Thunder Wave. Togekiss struggles to deal damages to Charizard, but a T-Waved Zard is a dead Zard. Then, you can run whatever utility you want. Aside from Charizard, you are better against Victini, Volcarona and Entei... And he counters the whole classic coverage alongside Dragon (Fighting / Fire / Ground --> Classic MegaChomp is walled). That's not much, in fact, because a lot of things with Fire-moves can still annoy Togekiss. Banded Talonflamme 2KOes with BB, SpDef Heatran didn't do any relevant damages.
And about the Ice neutrality, it's great against Mamoswine (Icicle Crash does not 2KOes... but you only 3KOes), Kyurem (rare) and Weavile. But I guess it's nice.
But still, the ability to be a nearly surefire Charizard counter is amazing. And he does not lose that much : offensive set likes the opportunities to come-in granted by Thick Fat too.

Steel / Dragon Druddigon
This is my least favorite. I mean, Dragon / Steel is a good typing, and he would have Sheer Force Iron Head I believe but... He still has only decent bulk (77/90/90 is not impressive). I don't know what he can do. A bulky set (with Glare / Dragon Tail) ? He direly lack any kind of recovery (even a Drain Punch-like would be decent) and Garchomp has a much better bulk. Remember he is still weak to Fire / Ground / Fighting. Because of it's Dragon typing, he can't really check Fairies (he is still slower than M-Mawile for fuck'sake). When you look at the most impressive threats of the metagame, Druddigon just does nothing. M-Pinsir stomps him at +2, Char-X has the only problem of taking a huge chunk of recoil damages through Rough Skin but it could be worse, M-Gyarados has Earthquake and normal Gyarados may sub on him (hard though)... What is its niche ? He can't take on anything in the metagame, except Scizor, Venusaur (bar Leech Seed. Considering he can't do anything in return, that's big), mayyyyybe Clefable (I doubt he can stomach Sylveon), Ferrothorn bar Leech Seed, Zapdos and Rotom (who will burn him).
I just have no clue on why should I use him. A Fairy-slayer Dragon ? I doubt it.7

Prankster Gourgheist
Wow, that's gonna be a thing. Like others said, a Disable / Sub / WoW / Leech Seed set is just so freakin' annoying. He is really bulky so you can't really hope to kill before he starts burning you. You will want something with Infiltrator to deal with this, which means Crobat (who will be burnt, yay) or Noivern. Else, rely on something like Celebi to absorb the WoW but it's just so annoying. Honestly, even though it seems really a great and interesting buff, I don't want it. Just because he would so (yeah I'm repeating myself) annoying. Bulk, priority burn, priority sub... What else ?
You could also run Choice Spec Exploud, hah.
But I will definitely second other people here. I just don't see how to deal with him once he switch in on one of your Pokemon, apart of some obscure sets (Noivern being the most common. Yeah.)

Don't forget Greninja, which Togekiss can wall with a specially defensive spread and Thick Fat.

 

[amzaneok]

No they aren't. You're trading niche, mostly used as coverage weaknesses for the two most common physical attacking types in the game. If you're a physical attacker, you're running either a ground or a fighting move. Druggidon getting a steel typing is just plain terrible. It's slow as hell, and 120 attack isn't even impressive. It does nothing well, it can't switch in against any physical attacker and once on the field he's just going to be taken out by anything faster.

But back to your point, being weak to Ice and Fairy wasn't Drugs problem it was his terrible speed and mediocre defenses. Well guess what? You removed two inconsequential weaknesses and then decided to make him weak to the two most common physical attacking types. Great job you just made a slow as hell pokemon that can't do anything when in a battle weak to half the meta.

While I don't agree with the demeanor of this post, I do agree with its statements. Druddigon's flaws are just too glaring for a Steel-typing to fix it. Its bulk is barely better than that of Haxorus. Actually, I think Haxorus would have enjoyed this retyping a LOT more due to access to Dragon Dance, much better speed, and great coverage in Dragon/Mold Breaker Earthquake/Iron Head. Air Balloon + Steel-type could have given it some pretty good set up opportunities too. Alas, that's not what was nominated.

I think it's just a mere BST/stat distribution issue with Druddigon. I also completely agree with Dry Paratroopa regarding Togekiss... it's just going to turn out to be a much too similar conversation to that of Dragon/Fairy Altaria.

 

[acestriker19]

While I don't agree with the demeanor of this post, I do agree with its statements. Druddigon's flaws are just too glaring for a Steel-typing to fix it. Its bulk is barely better than that of Haxorus. Actually, I think Haxorus would have enjoyed this retyping a LOT more due to access to Dragon Dance, much better speed, and great coverage in Dragon/Mold Breaker Earthquake/Iron Head. Air Balloon + Steel-type could have given it some pretty good set up opportunities too. Alas, that's not what was nominated.

I think it's just a mere BST/stat distribution issue with Druddigon. I also completely agree with Dry Paratroopa regarding Togekiss... it's just going to turn out to be a much too similar conversation to that of Dragon/Fairy Altaria.

Just real quick Haxorus doesn't learn Iron Head. I do not agree that Togekiss will end up sounding like Altaria there a tons more pokemon Togekiss can wall with its new typing than just the Zards and Togekiss is already a pretty useful mon in the current meta unlike Altaria.

The new Ability allows Togekiss to counter

Dragonite

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Togekiss: 134-158 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 63-75 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Deoxys-S

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 116+ SpD Togekiss: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 109-130 (45.2 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 116+ SpD Thick Fat Togekiss: 75-91 (20 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Conkeldurr

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

Mamoswine

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 140-168 (37.4 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are some prominent mons this ability change allows Togekiss to counter besides both Zards this is IMO enough to make it OU viable in the metagame and it will be much much better than Dragon / Fairy Altaria

 

[Valmanway]

Just real quick Haxorus doesn't learn Iron Head. I do not agree that Togekiss will end up sounding like Altaria there a tons more pokemon Togekiss can wall with its new typing than just the Zards and Togekiss is already a pretty useful mon in the current meta unlike Altaria.

The new Ability allows Togekiss to counter

Dragonite

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Togekiss: 134-158 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 63-75 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Deoxys-S

252+ SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 116+ SpD Togekiss: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 109-130 (45.2 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO

Conkeldurr

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

Mamoswine

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 140-168 (37.4 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are some prominent mons this ability change allows Togekiss to counter besides both Zards this is IMO enough to make it OU viable in the metagame and it will be much much better than Dragon / Fairy Altaria

Togekiss can take these guys on vs. their standard sets, but they can always change to another move. Dragonite can use Iron Head, Deoxys-S can use Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, or Thunder Punch, Conkeldurr can also use Thunder Punch, and Mamoswine can use Stone Edge. But if they start using those moves, then Togekiss will have made an impact onto the metagame, which is the goal of Theorymons.

 

[amzaneok]

Just real quick Haxorus doesn't learn Iron Head. I do not agree that Togekiss will end up sounding like Altaria there a tons more pokemon Togekiss can wall with its new typing than just the Zards and Togekiss is already a pretty useful mon in the current meta unlike Altaria.

The new Ability allows Togekiss to counter

Dragonite

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Togekiss: 134-158 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 63-75 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Deoxys-S

252+ SpA Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 116+ SpD Togekiss: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 109-130 (45.2 - 53.9%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO

Conkeldurr

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

Mamoswine

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Thick Fat Togekiss: 140-168 (37.4 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are some prominent mons this ability change allows Togekiss to counter besides both Zards this is IMO enough to make it OU viable in the metagame and it will be much much better than Dragon / Fairy Altaria

Yes, I agree it will still be better than Dragon/Fairy Altaria, but I really don't think it's particularly worth talking about because we have already had a similar discussion before. It does check new things that Altaria couldn't, for sure, though. Being neutral to Ice-type attacks is a pretty huge difference, as things like Mamoswine and Greninja can no longer break through very effectively. Although, I'm not quite sure why you included a calculation for Deoxys-S when that attack is not affected by its new ability.

Also fuck me for not knowing Haxorus doesn't get Iron Head. It has blades on its face. It literally has iron on its head. What.

 

[acestriker19]

Yes, I agree it will still be better than Dragon/Fairy Altaria, but I really don't think it's particularly worth talking about because we have already had a similar discussion before. It does check new things that Altaria couldn't, for sure, though. Being neutral to Ice-type attacks is a pretty huge difference, as things like Mamoswine and Greninja can no longer break through very effectively. Although, I'm not quite sure why you included a calculation for Deoxys-S when that attack is not affected by its new ability.

Also fuck me for not knowing Haxorus doesn't get Iron Head. It has blades on its face. It literally has iron on its head. What.

Oh I just added Psycho Boost Deo-S as it is its only strong attack now that the ice beam fails with thick fat. I'll edit in a Thick Fat Ice Beam calc too. I also forgot Life Orb for Deo-S calcs though it doesn't make that much of a difference when adding in the Sp. Atk drop from Psycho Boost.

I think Togekiss will be a different discussion than Altaria not only because of new mons it counters but also because of how much utility it can provide to a team: Wish, Defog, Heal Bell, Encore, Dual Screens even Tailwind it gets most if not all of the best support moves. Togekiss can also use its new Ability to set up Nasty Plots so it can pose and offensive and defensive threat, unlike Altaria who only had Heal Bell.

 

[Seiterman]

Thick Fat Togekiss - So it walls the Megazards now. We've done this concept already with Dragon/Fairy Altaria and Flash Fire Gourgeist, so I don't think it's worth yet another discussion. Outside of that, it loses its Ice weakness, gains a Fire resistance, and also doesn't have a way to hit the Fire- and Water-types that are going to be using these moves very hard.

Yes, I agree it will still be better than Dragon/Fairy Altaria, but I really don't think it's particularly worth talking about because we have already had a similar discussion before. It does check new things that Altaria couldn't, for sure, though. Being neutral to Ice-type attacks is a pretty huge difference, as things like Mamoswine and Greninja can no longer break through very effectively. Although, I'm not quite sure why you included a calculation for Deoxys-S when that attack is not affected by its new ability.

Also fuck me for not knowing Haxorus doesn't get Iron Head. It has blades on its face. It literally has iron on its head. What.

First off, I think it's worth noting basing your vote on what's interesting to discuss is no longer a good way to vote. If nothing else is taken from this post, I hope the bolded part is. We're already discussing all of the nominations, so the discussion is happening regardless. We can focus on what we want to add to the ladder when voting time comes around, and talk about whichever of the slated theorymons we want for the time being. (This is the main reason why I love this new discussion format.)

As for the Altaria/Togekiss comparison, I don't think it's a really good one. For starters, Togekiss has superior stats in literally every department but Attack, which it doesn't need (and tied speed.) Togekiss also has, as acestriker19 mentioned, many more options in its movepool, allowing for many more effective sets. Obviously the typing and resistances are different, too. The only thing Altaria has over Togekiss is Natural Cure, which is important because it impacts what can effectively deal with both threats. There are more than enough differences to both merit discussion on Togekiss in the first place and to incentivize voting for it later.

 

[amzaneok]

First off, I think it's worth noting basing your vote on what's interesting to discuss is no longer a good way to vote. If nothing else is taken from this post, I hope the bolded part is. We're already discussing all of the nominations, so the discussion is happening regardless. We can focus on what we want to add to the ladder when voting time comes around, and talk about whichever of the slated theorymons we want for the time being. (This is the main reason why I love this new discussion format.)

As for the Altaria/Togekiss comparison, I don't think it's a really good one. For starters, Togekiss has superior stats in literally every department but Attack, which it doesn't need (and tied speed.) Togekiss also has, as acestriker19 mentioned, many more options in its movepool, allowing for many more effective sets. Obviously the typing and resistances are different, too. The only thing Altaria has over Togekiss is Natural Cure, which is important because it impacts what can effectively deal with both threats. There are more than enough differences to both merit discussion on Togekiss in the first place and to incentivize voting for it later.

Oh. Right. I guess this is true, now that you mention it. At this point, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's more of a question of "would I like to play with Thick Fat Togekiss on the ladder?" vs. "would Thick Fat Togekiss inspire good conversation and make an interesting impact on the metagame or provide a valuable niche?" before. Honestly, wanting to play with Thick Fat Togekiss kind of already answers all the questions asked during the older format and more. So yes, I am by no means against playing with or having Thick Fat Togekiss in the meta.

Still, it's still not nearly as appealing to me after Altaria satisfied my Charizard appetite, but yes, I agree Thick Fat Togekiss would be much better thanks to its movepool and overall wider usefulness. Too bad that Togekiss' Fairy-type STAB isn't much stronger at all on support sets. ):

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Thick Fat Togekiss: If Togekiss got nice and chubby he would be hands down the best option to switch into either Zard. I think a great moveset for him would be Thunder Wave, Air Slash, Roost, *Something*. Togekiss would usually force a switch because neither X or Y wants to be stricken with Thunder Wave. This allows for some awesome mindgames (especially with hazards up) because you could double switch and really take a lead. Although Togekiss would miss Serene Grace on occasion, I think Thick Fat would really bump him up a few tiers in the meta. We definitely need a mon that can fully counter both Zards. Also, being neutral to ice means that he could switch in on Greninja and cause some trouble. Greninja would most likely switch out in fear of Thunder Wave.

 

[Valmanway]

Togekiss can take these guys on vs. their standard sets, but they can always change to another move. Dragonite can use Iron Head, Deoxys-S can use Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, or Thunder Punch, Conkeldurr can also use Thunder Punch, and Mamoswine can use Stone Edge. But if they start using those moves, then Togekiss will have made an impact onto the metagame, which is the goal of Theorymons.

Also just remembered that Charizard gets Thunder Punch, so Mega Charizard X can actually take Togekiss on unless he's paralyzed and therefore attacks after Togekiss Roosts. Just saying.

*Edit

Just did some calcs, and physically defensive Togekiss can actually avoid a 2HKO from Adamant sets running Thunder Punch most of the time, so I was wrong there.

 

[Seiterman]

Also just remembered that Charizard gets Thunder Punch, so Mega Charizard X can actually take Togekiss on unless he's paralyzed and therefore attacks after Togekiss Roosts. Just saying.

Is that a realistic concern? I can't imagine Char-X running Thunder Punch for Togekiss, as even with that move it's a risky match-up at best if Charizard doesn't already have a Dragon Dance in tow.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's not something Togekiss wants to switch in on by any means, but it can afford to tank the hit while retaliating with Thunder Wave, then Roost off the damage. Things look a bit better with a physically defensive spread (which would likely be viable, given that Thick Fat Togekiss could mess with a lot of physical mons.)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's something to think about, at the very least.