Politoed

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
Taken over from DarkSlay
QC Approved 4/4: Ash Borer, TRC., Spirit, CyclicCompound
GP Approved 2/2: horyzhnz, GatoDelFuego
Skeleton: http://pastebin.com/ttyZibrK
Overview
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The undisputed king of BW OU returns in the sixth generation, struggling in the depths of lower tiers. This is due to the weather nerf that was introduced in XY, making it so that automatic weather only lasts for five turns, or eight if the Pokemon is holding a weather duration-extending stone. Rain offense is still a threatening force in the current metagame, especially because it's so unprepared for, and Politoed is the centerpiece for all rain teams. Politoed even has a unique set of support moves to further support its team, such as Toxic, Hypnosis, and Scald. Politoed has pretty average stats all across the board though, making it a mediocre Pokemon aside from providing rain support. Overall, while Politoed has gone down a ton in terms of viability, it is still the best supporter to a fearsome playstyle in XY OU.

Specially Defensive
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name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Encore / Hypnosis
move 4: Hypnosis / Ice Beam / Rest
ability: Drizzle
item: Damp Rock
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
nature: Calm

Moves
========
Scald is a must-have for pretty much every bulky Water-type, and Politoed's rain makes it even stronger. Toxic is a crippling status for most Politoed switch-ins like Gastrodon. The third and fourth moveslots are adjustable to your team's needs; Encore can be used in the third slot to foil attempts of using Politoed as setup bait while also giving frail teammates like Kabutops free switch-in opportunities. Hypnosis cripples a single Pokemon for the majority, if not the entirety, of the battle; however, its low accuracy and the change in sleep mechanics are setbacks. Ice Beam has good coverage with Scald and gives Politoed a way to hit Pokemon that resist Water such as Latios and Breloom. Rest is an option for Politoed to get back to full health, giving it opportunities to set up rain later on in the game.

Set Details
========
Maximum Special Defense investment compliments Politoed's naturally high Special Defense, and Scald burns shield it on the physical side as well. A physically defensive spread can be used if you already pack a check to common special attackers like Aegislash and Greninja. Damp Rock is the item of choice, as it lengthens the duration of rain from five turns to eight, giving Politoed's teammates more than enough time to wreak havoc.

Usage Tips
========
Politoed's main role is to activate rain with Drizzle. Due to XY mechanics, rain only lasts for a limited amount of turns, which means that you need to send Politoed back in to reactivate rain. Scald is usually the most spammable move for Politoed, as it has decent power under rain and can cripple both offensive and defensive Pokemon with a burn. If you use Hypnosis, feel free to fire it off as soon as possible. Politoed's other moves should be used with relative care, as a wrong move can result in Politoed's end, hindering the rest of your team; Toxic should only be used on predicted switch-ins to walls or Pokemon that don't care for Scald, such as Keldeo, while Encore should be used on Pokemon like Dragon Dance Mega Charizard-X or Substitute Gyarados that think they can set up on Politoed. Rest should only be used if you feel that Politoed is getting too low on health and you'll need to reactivate rain later on in the game. Also watch out for Knock Off users, as they severely hinder Politoed's supporting capabilities. Keep track of Politoed's health, as it will need to continuously keep switching in to activate rain.

Team Options
========
The most obvious teammates for Politoed are those that require rain support or really appreciate it. Swift Swim Pokemon are an extremely scary force to face in the rain, with the best examples being Kingdra, Kabutops, and Omastar. Bulky Steel-types like Mega Scizor and Mega Mawile love the rain, as it alleviates their Fire-type weaknesses, letting them make better use of their bulk and have an easier time setting up. Thundurus-T can absorb Electric-type attacks aimed at its Water-type teammates and fire back 100% accurate Thunders. Grass-types like Amoonguss and Ferrothorn are nice to deal with opposing Water-types like Keldeo and Azumarill, and they also appreciate their Fire-type weaknesses being alleviated. A backup rain setter is also recommended to ease the pressure off of Politoed; Tornadus, Thundurus, Zapdos, and Deoxys-S are great examples of this.

Offensive
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name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hypnosis / Psychic / Scald
ability: Drizzle
item: Damp Rock
evs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========
When boosted by rain, Hydro Pump really hurts despite coming from a relatively low base 90 Special Attack stat. Ice Beam provides great coverage for Politoed, letting it hit bulky Grass- and Dragon-types, such as Chesnaught and Latias. Focus Blast is used to get past Ferrothorn, a common check to both Politoed and rain teams as a whole. Hypnosis is a great option in the last slot to practically disable a threat for the entirety of the game, although the horrendous accuracy and change in sleep mechanics are major downfalls. Psychic can be used since it hits Mega Venusaur as well as other roadblocks for rain teams, such as Tentacruel and Toxicroak, really hard. Scald can be used instead as a more reliable STAB, and it also has a decent burn chance that can cripple defensive checks like Latias and Mega Venusaur.

Set Details
========
Maximum Special Attack investment and a Modest nature is used to guarantee the highest damage output. 84 Speed EVs let Politoed outspeed everything up to uninvested base 80s, most notably Mega Venusaur; the rest is thrown in HP for more bulk. Damp Rock, again, is the preferred item, as it lengthens rain turns, letting Politoed support its team to the fullest. Choice Specs can be used instead to be able to beat threats to rain such as Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Mega Charizard-Y with much greater ease. Choice Specs does limit the amount of turns rain is on the field, which is the entire point of using Politoed in the first place, but semi-rain teams with Politoed + a Swift Swim sweeper love the power that Choice Specs Politoed brings.

Usage Tips
========
This Politoed is played much more offensively, as it greatly pressures its opponents with boosted Hydro Pumps. Politoed's coverage moves should only be used on predicted switches into Pokemon that resist Water, as Hydro Pump will almost always be a better choice otherwise. Again, be wary of Knock Off users, as they limit the turns that rain will be on the field by stripping Politoed of its Damp Rock.

Team Options
========
This variant of Politoed's teammates should mostly be those that can work their best on offensive rain teams. Swift Swim Pokemon are again great choices, as Politoed can also soften walls for them to blow past late-game. Keldeo is a great partner for offensive Politoed, blowing past Chansey and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon that usually trouble it. Electric-types like Thundurus-T and Raikou are also appreciated to take on Electric-type moves while firing off powerful 100% accurate Thunders. Backup rain setters are hugely appreciated, especially if Politoed uses Choice Specs; Deoxys-S, Zapdos, and Thundurus are great examples that would fit well on offensive rain teams. Tornadus and Tornadus-T are great rain setters that can also utilize a 100% accurate STAB in Hurricane; Tornadus-T is also an excellent pivot that's appreciated on offensive rain teams.

Other Options
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A Choice Scarf set is a nice alternative to the sets above, but it forces Politoed to lose out on Damp Rock, which is really unfortunate considering automatic rain is Politoed's biggest, and arguably only, niche. Chesto Berry + Rest is a good option to fully cure Politoed so it can keep supporting its team, but again, the loss of Damp Rock really sucks. Similarly, a Rest + Sleep Talk strategy can work, but it's too hard to pull off properly with Politoed and is generally just a waste of moveslots. Leftovers can be used instead for passive recovery, but it greatly lessens the effect of Drizzle. Politoed has access to a lot of other support moves like Perish Song, Haze, and Refresh, but the moves listed on the main sets are generally more helpful. Surf is an alternative STAB that has both reliability and power, but Scald is almost always better due to its higher utility. Rain Dance is useful for resetting rain once it runs out or on a predicted Tyranitar, Hipppowdon, or Mega Charizard-Y switch-in, but it's fairly redundant and Politoed prefers its other support moves. Hidden Power Grass hits Gastrodon and Rotom-W for super effective damage, but it doesn't even OHKO Gastrodon, even with a Choice Specs boost, making it relatively useless.

Checks & Counters
########

**Water-Immune Pokemon**: Water-immune Pokemon not only check Politoed very well, but also are great checks to other rain Pokemon. Gastrodon is the best of these, as its secondary Ground typing also lets it wall Electric-types. Vaporeon is also a good check, but it faces trouble from common Thunders that rain teams carry.

**Bulky Grass-types**: Bulky Grass-types not only check Politoed well, but they also check rain teams as a whole. Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur are amongst the best of these because they aren't hit super effectively by Ice Beam. Ferrothorn can check the Steel-types that are found on rain teams, but it has to beware of Keldeo's Secret Sword as well as offensive Politoed's Focus Blast. Mega Venusaur can check Keldeo, Thundurus, and Azumarill very well, but needs to watch out for a Psychic from Politoed as well as common Hurricanes from Tornadus and Tornadus-T. There are also other Grass-types that check rain teams well, such as Celebi and Amoonguss, but they're fairly rare.

**Common Rain Stops**: Checking Politoed isn't a big deal, but checking rain teams as a whole is. Latias, Latios, and Rotom-W are all great checks to both Politoed and rain teams. The former two have a nice typing that lets them wall Keldeo and Thundurus, while the latter's typing grants it a boosted Water STAB as well as an Electric STAB that hits the majority of rain teams really hard. However, Latias and Latios are hurt by an Ice Beam from Politoed, while Rotom-W is severely crippled by Toxic.

**Other Weather Inducers**: Mega Charizard-Y, (Mega) Tyranitar, and Hippowdon are all common weather inducers that can strip Politoed of its precious rain. They need to be careful, however, as they're all hit super effectively by Politoed's Water STAB, and Politoed can even use Rain Dance on a predicted switch to foil their plans by changing the weather back to rain.
 
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Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
Alright, so I realize that DarkSlay's skeleton was at QC: 1/3, but I changed quite a few things around and would like QC to give it another complete look.

Also, sorry for delaying this; I had it ready yesterday, but some editing glitch made me lose it and forced me to restart :<
 
Furthermore, It's also good to note that offensive Politoed can singly-handedly deal with ... Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn
Non-Specs offensive Toed misses a 2HKO on Mega Venusaur and gets shredded by Giga Drain, and loses the Battle of Inaccurate Moves with Ferrothorn. Specs offensive Toed can't support its team because it only provides five turns of rain, so you run a Rain Dance user with Damp Rock... at which point why are you using Politoed when you could use something with good stats which can deal with Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn so much more easily?

252+ SpA Politoed Psychic vs. 252 HP / 188 SpD Mega Venusaur: 124-146 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Psychic vs. 252 HP / 188 SpD Mega Venusaur: 184-218 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Politoed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (87.5% after Stealth Rock)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 294-348 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
I believe the offensive set should be listed first for a number of reasons. To start with, good rain teams are of the fast, hyper offensive variety, and while defensive Politoed might have an easier time switching in, it takes a serious dump on its team's momentum, whereas offensive Politoed can actually keep the pressure going on top of supporting its team just as effortlessly as its bulky counter part. Furthermore, It's also good to note that offensive Politoed can singly-handedly deal with two of rains biggest enemies: Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, so that's another boon to the offensive set. Another advantage is that offensive Politoed can pave the way for Kingdra and Kabutops to sweep by drawing in and weakening their counters, unlike the defensive set where it's just a sitting duck, really.
The thing is, both offensive toed and defensive toed fit very well on offensive rain teams. Offensive toed for the reasons you mentioned, but defensive toed because it can lure out and cripple threats like Gatrodon and Latias, give teammates switch-in opportunities with Encore, stop sweepers cold with Perish Song, while still having a hard-hitting STAB in Scald, all of which offensive rain teams really love and things that offensive toed can't do. Furthermore, defensive toed can stop opposing weather setters with a predicted Rain Dance, where offensive toed would be forced out of the likes of Mega Charizard-Y and sometimes even Tyranitar and Hippodown, which means that you will lose a lot of momentum. Defensive toed also finds many more opportunities to switch in and re-activate rain, where offensive toed can only really switch in on resisted attacks. All these reasons are why defensive toed can fit in well on offensive rain teams, and it gets to be the first set because it also fits in well on bulkier rain teams.
In regards to the set itself, I think it's better to leave Damp Rock as the primary slash and just keep choice specs in the set details. Rain teams need as many turns as they can get their hands on and the extra power just isn't worth it imo, as Politoed already has the capability to 2HKO Venusaur and Ferrothorn after around 15%~ of prior damage with Psychic and Focus Blast, respectively.
Choice Specs is an amazing item for offensive toed, and is really what gives it the oomph it needs to pressure opponents and make it easier for its rain-abusing teammates to clean up. It cannot 2HKO Venusaur without Choice Specs, which means you lose to it, while fully specially defensive Ferrothorn (while rare) also avoids the 2HKO from Focus Blast. If anything, I would not slash Damp Rock with it, but because it has excellent utility while the investment still lets Politoed have some offensive presence, it's slashed next to Choice Specs.
As far as the overview is concerned, I wouldn't say it faces competition from anything. All other rain setters have to take a turn to get rain up, whereas Politoed can just come in and get the ball rolling immediately. Politoed is why rain is as good as it is now, implying that it faces competition from anything is just flat-out ludicrous.
The reason I said that it faces competition from the likes of Zapdos and Bronzong is because they can get rain sweepers in unhindered as soon as they set up rain, which is huge for many offensive rain teams and something that no Politoed variant can do (it doesn't get Baton Pass :[). Zapdos can use a slow Volt Switch while Bronzong can use Explosion. Also, while they take a turn to set up rain, their defensive potential is high enough to give them many opportunities to set it up.
I also wouldn't say its offensive movepool is mediocre, lol. The only thing its missing is a Grass move for Manaphy and Rotom-W, but that honestly isn't a huge deal, anyway.
Alright, will do.
I'd probably remove Toxicroak from c&c considering it isn't really viable anymore. I'm pretty sure it's analysis was rejected iirc. I'd also remove Jellicent considering its hard to justify its use on any team, and its analysis has two QC rejects right now as well. All in all, I'd probably just merge the first four points and label it "water resists". If not that, then at least merge one and four. It's cleaner and more efficient, but it's up to you.
Yeah, I was thinking about this as well. I'll leave Toxicroak and Jellicent in, but I'll mention that they're extremely rare in the metagame. Also, I'll just merge the Mega Venu and Ferro points into "Bulky Grass-types" and also put Celebi in here, leaving the third point to just the Lati twins and Rotom-W.

Thanks a bunch for the comments though!
 

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
Whoops, didn't see your post there Ketsuban @_@ thanks for providing those calcs though!

No, that's not true... Using a defensive Pokemon on a full offensive team is just so counter-intuitive. The best rain teams are hyper offensive, ergo, Defensive Toed isn't the best option.
It seems that you are highly underestimating the sheer amount of support defensive toed can bring to offensive rain teams. I have already addressed them in my previous post, but I'd like you to know that Politoed as a whole is a support Pokemon, even when it goes on the offensive, since it's really just there to supply automatic rain, and not function as a sweeper/cleaner.

Gastrodon is irrelevant and Latias is 2HKOed by Ice Beam after rocks?
While I admit that Gastrodon is rare, it is the single most biggest threat to rain teams, making it very relevant in this specific analysis. As for Latias, it's better to outright cripple it with Toxic, and then switch out into something like a Mega Scizor or Mega Mawile. The reason for this is that the 2HKO on Latias isn't confirmed if you're not using Specs (which you're not a fan of), and it can use Roost to get at a comfortable range of health, and then proceed to 2HKO offensive Politoed with LO Psyshock (something that it wouldn't do if it was a defensive variant).

You have a chance to 2HKO Mega Saur after prior damage anyway, so that's pretty irrelevant. If you're using Poli, ur using it for rain support. The power from specs is nice on like semi-rain teams, but if you're using politoed on full rain teams (the most common kind), then damp rock is the superior choice.
Damp Rock and Choice Specs work very differently actually. While Damp Rock is really nice to support your team better, the only reason you would be using offensive toed is for the extra pressure it applies while simultaneously setting up rain. This means that it would want to stay in and hit the opposing Pokemon hard, rather than set up rain and switch out to a rain abuser. For this reason, Choice Specs is superior since it really helps Politoed apply the pressure you need. Here are a few extremely relevant calcs that showcase how important the power boost from Specs is:

252+ SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 134-162 (44.9 - 54.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 204-240 (68.4 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 158-187 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Politoed Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 106-125 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 256-304 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 167-197 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Politoed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 112-132 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 325-384 (78.5 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 219-258 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While it seems like there is no difference, non-Specs toed will miss out on the 2HKO after Drain Punch recovery, allowing Conk to beat it. Specs Politoed doesn't face this problem


I'll gave you Zard-Y, that's a good point, but no way in hell are Hippo and Ttar switching in on offensive toed, much less forcing it out lol. Like, you'know, they're 2HKOed?
I said sometimes in my previous post. Those times are when Tyranitar switched into an Ice Beam or Psychic, or when Hippodown switches into a Choice Specs Focus Blast/Psychic.

True, but how often are you even switching in defensive toed to neutral, powerful attacks? I mean it still takes a fuck ton.

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 161-191 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I mean, that's just one example, but its bulk isn't as big as you make it out to be. Your switching Politoed in on a resisted move regardless or after you sack something. Just b/c it's defensive doesn't mean you can risk switching into powerful attackers (unless you're sacking it to get rain up). That's just reckless.
The thing is, sometimes you just need to get Politoed in, and keep it healthy enough so it can switch in once more. Defensive Politoed offers that much more than its offensive variant does. As for that Latias calc, you will most likely be switching in on physical attackers over special attackers. Here are a few clacs to prove it:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 208-246 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 288-338 (75 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 288-338 (89.7 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 240-283 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 352-415 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 214-253 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 313-370 (97.5 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 216-255 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 232-274 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 339-400 (105.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


And there are many more, but this just goes to show that defensive Politoed gets many more switch-in opportunities than offensive Politoed, which means it can set up rain more times throughout the match.

Who even uses these team. lol The only good rain teams that exist are hyper offensive.
When I say bulkier rain teams, I mean those that run non-offensive Pokemon that love the presence of rain, like Ferrothorn and Tentacruel. While offensive rain teams are better, they aren't a horrible playstyle.

e_e. Implying that Politoed faces competition from anything means that you can use a rain team w/o it. You know how absurd that sounds. Second, if you're gonna mention that it actually faces competition from anything, at least mention the rain setters that are actually relevant like Deo-s, Thundurus, and Tornadus. i've never seen anyone use freaking Zapdos and Bronzong for this kind of stuff, why? Cause the drag down the offensive momentum like defensive politoed does.
You clearly don't know how Bronzong and Zapdos work on rain teams. They both gain more momentum than the rain setters you mentioned because they can bring rain sweepers in unscratched right after they set up rain with Explosion and Volt Switch, respectively. These guys do give Politoed competition, because believe it or not, Politoed isn't required to make hyper offensive rain teams this gen, the Pokemon I mentioned alongside things like lead Deo-S are sometimes good enough to suffice, and I'll make that more clear in the overview.

Edit: talked to Spirit on IRC, and I'll be testing a testing an offensive rain team without Politoed and see how it goes.

There's a difference between "rare" and just plain unviable.
Point taken, will fix.

Sorry if my comments came across as a bit harsh, but I really needed to get my arguments through.
While I did find your tone unnecessarily rude, I appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinions and making this a better analysis :)
 
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Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
Alright, so I had a long chat with QC as well as Spirit, and there were a few updates:

  • Going to test specially defensive Resttalk and eventually make it the first set
  • Keeping defensive Politoed > offensive Politoed
  • Removing Specs (</3) from offensive Politoed since the rain turns are too important
  • Slashing Hypnosis on the last slot of offensive
  • Giving Rain Dance a full slot on the defensive set, while slashing Ice Beam next to Toxic
If anyone disagrees with anything/has more to add, feel free to post.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 79.2% chance to 3HKO

this is a comparison of power. Specs Politoed is STRONG, it's useful in its own right as a wall breaker. I like to use it on semi-rain teams. As opposed to full rain where the entire team focuses on abusing a drizzle, semi-rain just has one or two rain benefactors. A simple Specs Toed + Kingdra core can be very effective against defensive teams as Politoed is very strong and can beat a number of Kingdra's counters with its powerful Psychic and Focus Blast letting Kindra clean up later. ITs also very deadly against offense as the small number of rain turns that Drizzle confers is more than enough to do serious damage or clean up as shown here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99035447

In short I disagree with Specs toed getting removed.
 

AccidentalGreed

Sweet and bitter as chocolate.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I use Specs Politoed casually on teams where rain isn't exactly required at any given moment, and like Ash Borer said, it makes a terrific offensive core with Kingdra. I'd give my vote on not removing it entirely.
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Change team options in the offensive set from Thundy-T and Jolteon to Thundy-I and Raikou please

I'd still like to see specs as a slash
 
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TheManlyLadybug

Banned deucer.
If you're keeping the offensive set, I noticed that you have Hypnosis listed first, but you have no description to go along with it. Just a small nitpick, I guess you must've forgot to put it in, but you shouldn't list a move first and not explain why it's listed.
 

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
Yeah so I chatted on #xyqc with Dice, CrashinBoomBang, and Ash Borer, and we came to the conclusion that Specs shouldn't be slashed because Politoed's only niche is providing rain, which Specs severely hinders. If anyone has anything to add though, feel free.

Change team options in the offensive set from Thundy-T and Jolteon to Thundy-I and Raikou please
I won't remove Thundy-T because of Volt Absorb letting it take on Electric-types much better than Thundurus, but I'll put Raikou > Jolteon. Thanks!

If you're keeping the offensive set, I noticed that you have Hypnosis listed first, but you have no description to go along with it. Just a small nitpick, I guess you must've forgot to put it in, but you shouldn't list a move first and not explain why it's listed.
My bad, it's added now. Thanks :)

Also, I'll be including the RestTalk set mentioned shortly, and I'll also be revamping a few parts of the analysis, so stay tuned for the update!
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Rohail

  • The nerf to Drizzle hurt Politoed's viability a lot
  • Rain is still a threatening force in the current metagame, especially because it's so unprepared for, and Politoed is the centerpiece of most rain teams
  • Politoed even has a unique set of support moves to further support its team, such as Encore, Hypnosis, and Perish Song
  • It has pretty average stats all across the board
  • It now faces stiff competition from the likes of Zapdos and Bronzong as a rain setter, since the latter two can use Volt Switch and Explosion to bring a rain sweeper in safely, gaining a ton more momentum than Politoed does
questionable, Volt Switch isnt free momentum if the opponent just stays in and attacks unless you move last in which case Zapdos will have to take 2 hits to get up rain making it much harder to sustain that politoed, while Bronzong offs itself for momentum, which again doesnt rival politoed's ability to set up rain numerous times in a match.

Leftovers can be used instead so Politoed has some form of healing, but it greatly lessens the effect of Drizzle
remove this, specs toed at least is pretty decent by itself even though 5 turns of rain is nothing. Lefties toed is worthless.

A backup rain setter is also recommended to ease the pressure off of Politoed; Zapdos, Bronzong, and Thundurus are great examples of this
the big man, Tornadus-I is probably one of the better manual rain users, like Thundurus it has Prankster and a means of abusing Rain while also contributing to Rain teams pretty nicely getting past grass types iwth ease

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Hypnosis / Focus Blast / Scald
ability: Drizzle
item: Damp Rock
evs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
nature: Modest
going to request that you change focus blast and psychic. It is of my opinion that a) wearing down venu is easy as hell for rain teams as rain renders synthesis ineffectual and b) hitting ferrothorn is more important for rain teams as it completely walls the crap out of Kingdra and Kabutops that lack low kick, where as vunsaur can be chunked pretty damn hard with Draco Meteor or Stone Edge respectively.

Psychic is definitely nice, and deserves a slash but Focus Blast is that important imo. If not, Focus blast as the first slash isntead of hypnosis which just misses every other time anyways! Perhaps even dropping ice beam? The two relevant grass types arent weak to it and its not like dragons cause much trouble to rain anyways..

other than that this analysis is quite good
 
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Arkian

this is the state of grace
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I have implemented everything and added Lefties to OO instead of outright removing it after asking people on IRC.

Anyway, I have completely revamped the first set to make it RestTalk instead of full-on support, and changed some stuff in the Overview/OO to reflect that, so I'm not going to count that QC check just yet. If you have the time, can you just quickly look over the first set to make sure everything is fine, and this stamp it Ash Borer?
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell


QC 1/4

You do have psychic listed twice on offenisve though..
 
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Where you mention Choice Specs, mention the benefits of it as well. Remember that while rain support is the best thing that Politoed provides, the fact that it boosts its STAB makes Choice Specs viable, and its advantages should be mentioned.

2/3
 

Arkian

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Where you mention Choice Specs, mention the benefits of it as well. Remember that while rain support is the best thing that Politoed provides, the fact that it boosts its STAB makes Choice Specs viable, and its advantages should be mentioned.

2/3
Thanks! I mentioned how semi-rain teams love the power that Politoed brings, but if you want me to expand on it, I'm fine with that.
 

Arkian

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Thanks Spirit! I'll have this written up by the end of the week at the latest.
 

Martin

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Wouldn't a physically-defensive support (maybe with moves looking like something along the lines of this: Scald, Ice Beam/Toxic, Encore/Toxic/Perish Song, Protect) with a specially defensive spread and nature in set details be worth a set?

Also, does Politoed need to invest anything in speed to outpace anything (without creeping)? That would probably be better than the 4 spec. attack EVs
 
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Arkian

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Wouldn't a physically-defensive support (maybe with moves looking like something along the lines of this: Scald, Ice Beam/Toxic, Encore/Toxic/Perish Song, Protect) with a specially defensive spread and nature in set details be worth a set?

Also, does Politoed need to invest anything in speed to outpace anything (without creeping)? That would probably be better than the 4 spec. attack EVs
A fully supportive set is outclassed by the RestTalk set, and the support moves are mentioned in OO. As for the Speed point, the defensive set doesn't need to outrun anything while the offensive set runs enough Speed to outspeed minimum Mega Venusaur.

Edit: I'm busier than I thought today, so I'll have this written in the next few days. Sorry :<
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
k been going over this with some people and I'd like to ask about rest talk. Now I can see REst potentially being useful as you can switch in Politoed on a move that doesnt 2HKO, rest, switch out, then later come back into set the rain on a powerful move and then a third time in the match when you sack toed. However I feel like sleep talk is basically useless. Its just wasting rain turns to try and roll a min investment scald or something, and it uses a moveslot that ice beam, encore, or hypnosis could be in.

So, yeah, rain + stalling = bad when you need your rain turns for your ludicrous swift swimmers
 
SpDef is cool, Rest Talk makes toed a fucking sandbag. I used it in maybe 20 games and literally never clicked Sleep Talk (Rest was ait tho), I can just see no situation where that's a good play when you can just switch to an actual threat after healing instead of getting set up on by half the metagame while you snooze for a (second! at least!) rain turn and hope for a 2/3 chance of doing anything. I mean it's not like after you Rest your opponent's going to bring in something weak to Scald or keep throwing the same wimpy special attack at it lol. I guess you beat Greninja eventually?

Could someone maybe cast some light/post some replays demonstrating why Rest Talk is more effective than a set with Encore or Focus Blast or something?
 
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Jukain

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Yeah, RestTalk is not very good. After a talk with Ojama I had a bit ago the moveset should look like this:

move 1: Scald
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Encore / Hypnosis
move 4: Hypnosis / Ice Beam / Rest
 

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
K, I implemented everything and wrote this up, sorry for the delay. The writing is almost identical to the skeleton because I went really in-depth with the skeleton itself that I didn't really find anything that needed changing.

Anyway, this is ready for a final QC check ^.^
 
Remove mention of Tentacruel. Also, is Choice Scarf even worth mentioning? I may have missed a post, but is there a point to running it?
 

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