Self Reffing

[Birkal]

This has sat around in SotG for quite some time. It was pretty much overshadowed by community reffing (which got shot down), but received little negative feedback. I'd like to run a formal discussion on how we could potentially implement this to ASB. I hope the advantages to such a system are apparent. If gives users the power to control their own timing on how they enjoy ASB. No longer would you need to sit around for referees who have busy lives. You get counters on your own terms. Gets new users who are typically raring to go a chance to get Pokemon trained fast, while veterans don't need to resort to flash matches to keep with the curve. Basically, having self reffing gets rid of the entire flashmatch "beg for a ref" culture that dominates anyone who wants to get serious about this game quick.

Here is the proposal in its current state:

1. Referee Training Program for new referees is set up. Traditionally they ref three regular battles under tutelage from a tutor referee who shows them the ropes. Will likely include an array of matches (Items = On / Switch = OK / Obscure Arenas / etc).
2. A whitelist of users approved for self-refereeing is created based on general competency and game understanding.
3. Go through the program to get whitelisted.
4. Upon completion of the program, users get a free Exp. Share and are whitelisted.
5. Limit self-referring to 1v1 and 2v2 matches.
6. Program is run by head(s) and is updated frequently (like any other facility).
7. KOC is not rewarded in these battles.
8. All other forms of refereeing and battling still remain.
​

The idea here is to bring new users into the folds of reffing as quickly as possible. Once given experience with a variety of matches, they're given a free Exp. Share to further their training in ASB. Self-reffing then becomes available to these users, who can use this to generate powerful Pokemon in a much quicker time span. This, in turn, will allow them to participate in the more "fun" things ASB has to over (TLR / Gym / Tourney / etc).

Still a rough draft, but interested in hearing any feedback now.

 

[starwarsfan]

1. Referee Training Program for new referees is set up. Traditionally they ref three regular battles under tutelage from a tutor referee who shows them the ropes. Will likely include an array of matches (Items = On / Switch = OK / Obscure Arenas / etc).
2. A whitelist of users approved for self-refereeing is created based on general competency and game understanding.
3. Go through the program to get whitelisted.
4. Upon completion of the program, users get a free Exp. Share and are whitelisted.
5. Limit self-referring to 1v1 and 2v2 matches.
6. Program is run by head(s) and is updated frequently (like any other facility).
7. KOC is not rewarded in these battles.
8. All other forms of refereeing and battling still remain.

Four small nitpicks:
1. I'm not sure Exp. Share is the best thing to give for completion of the program. Maybe something like a CC reward?
2. Do the tutors get any rewards (UC imo)?
3. KOC should be awarded to the person who didn't self-ref but not the self-ref imo. Otherwise people might not want to fight someone who is self-reffing.
4. I would limit it to any match that gives a reward of 2 CC or less. So 3v3s and 4v4 doubles are fine. Just my opinion though.

I am in full support of this proposal as long as the above four points are at least considered. Also I'm assuming that this would be 100% limited to tower matches?

Lastly imo there should be some form of test after completion of the program.

 

[youngjake93]

Are combo legalities or other disputes just decided by IRC?

 

[Geodude6]

I see little downside to self-reffing; it stops every 5th line of IRC chat being "Anyone ref a flash?", it allows people to get battle-ready Pokemon in a shorter time-span (it took me nearly a month to get my Larvitar to a Tyranitar). It removes the need to wait forever for refs, especially lazy ones like yours truly. If this came to fruition, I believe it would be a good thing.

However, I see two major downsides to self-reffing. One: users that don't have permission to self-ref might get shunned from small matches. I can't really tell how much of an issue this might be, but it was a concern I saw raised in the SotG, do I thought I might post it here. Two: someone that has loads of free time could grow his Pokemon far more quickly than his peers. I'm mainly concerned about people with loads of free time having zarator-level mons. But I did see this as an argument against raising UC payout for refs, and we know how that turned out.

TL;DR: Me gusta, yo quiero

Are combo legalities or other disputes just decided by IRC?

I'd assume so.

(also, on a minor note, Birkal, under #5 you misspelled "refereeing" as "referring.")

 

[tavok]

@swf:

1.- Exp. Share is great because the objective is getting people to the best parts of ASB quickly, and Exp. Shares are pretty much needed for that. They'll want to get one anyway, so why not?
2.- Not sure about this. Maybe yes, maybe not. I guess maybe giving them part of the UC the ref would normally get? However, if it is completely like managing a facility, people don't get UC for doing that afaik.
3.- Wasn't it supposed to be between two people who could self-ref, with the one ordering second reffing?
4.- Well, the point is it being only for quick, normal flashes. That's a little closer to regular matches.

Not that I support this, as I still have a lot of doubts about it, but may as well comment.

and @ jake: nothing to worry about, really, since most people have enough common sense. And most people decide legality in IRC anyway. And with people managing this, they could interfere in case of abuse.

@ Geodude: The first one is actually woring. The second one... well, it already kind of happens, with people (read: Birkal and Gem) sometimes getting 5-6 flashes per day with other people getting a battle every 2 or 3 days.

I'll save my own opinion for later, once I have given it a little more thought..

 

[Geodude6]

Perhaps we could add 3v3 triples to the list of matches that can be self-reffed? Some people tend to throw out a 3v3 triples when they want to get a lot of Pokemon trained at once. I'd be against adding 3v3 singles/doubles, though.

 

[Avnomke]

Geodude6, we could just say any match that gives 1 CC can be self-reffed.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Four small nitpicks:
1. I'm not sure Exp. Share is the best thing to give for completion of the program. Maybe something like a CC reward?
2. Do the tutors get any rewards (UC imo)?
3. KOC should be awarded to the person who didn't self-ref but not the self-ref imo. Otherwise people might not want to fight someone who is self-reffing.
4. I would limit it to any match that gives a reward of 2 CC or less. So 3v3s and 4v4 doubles are fine. Just my opinion though.

I am in full support of this proposal as long as the above four points are at least considered. Also I'm assuming that this would be 100% limited to tower matches?

Lastly imo there should be some form of test after completion of the program.

1. Half of the proposal is intended to help new users learn how to ref, what better way to help them train their mons than an Exp. Share. If you already have enough CC to buy whatever you want than too bad, suck it up.
2. tbd
3. tbd
4. No.

Perhaps we could add 3v3 triples to the list of matches that can be self-reffed? Some people tend to throw out a 3v3 triples when they want to get a lot of Pokemon trained at once. I'd be against adding 3v3 singles/doubles, though.

No.

I am staunchly against anything that exceeds standard flashmatch specifications.

 

[akela]

I will say this much about the program in the works: If you cannot be half-assed to fix your mistakes, post RNG rolls, show your calculations in a coherent manner, or even remember to ref what you agreed to ref, you are S.O.L. with your goal of being a referee.

Tutors will probably be paid. However, this will be discussed at a later time once the program is ironed out.

 

[Ute]

I'll offer my opinion on the matter, however little it might mean.

Regardless of whether self reffing is approved I think a referee training facility with some graduation reward (I like the idea of Exp. Share because it's an extremely useful item and wouldn't disrupt the game balance much since it's fairly inexpensive) as an incentive for users to learn how to ref properly is a very good idea. It would need some Codification such as compensation for the tutors and how matches are chosen to be used for ref training, but I believe users with more ASB knowledge and experience than myself are working on these issues already.

On to the matter of Self Reffing. I like the idea a lot (if there is a whitelist of users), particularly if no KOC is awarded to lower motivation for faking RNG Rolls. It appears that the overall goal is to lessen the need for flashmatches and to help new users reach RPs and higher level activities more quickly so the format and size are great for those means. There are of course a few potential abuses left such as constantly engaging in self reffed battles against a single user or faking RNG rolls to speed up or reduce effort required to ref the match, but in blatant cases the user will almost definitely be removed from the whitelist.

My final concerns are about it increasing the work of approval staff, but the approval staff should be the ones to voice any opinions they may have in those regards

 

[Mulan15262]

For the training program, how are you going to decide who is qualified already and who needs to go through the program of everyone currently in ASB? I can't imagine that a lot of people in ASB would want to go through the training when they have already reffed several of matches, or that anyone just short of whatever arbitrary distinction we decide upon for quality would be happy when someone only a little bit better got in and he/she didn't. The only way that we can not make anyone upset about going through the training would be to make everyone in ASB at the time of it being official qualified, but that would make some of the newer ASBers qualified with zero experience reffing, so more experienced users would be unhappy with the new, low-experience refs and the users that arrive just after would be upset that someone else with equal experience is a ref and they are not.


In my opinion, constantly engaging in self-refereed matches between the same two users is not a problem, as users with more time are already making more progress, and this won't change much.

 

[ff7hero]

I don't know where I'd fall re: the cut off, but I wouldn't mind a free Exp Share :D

 

[Geodude6]

Mulan - perhaps a good baseline for who is "already qualified" would be all facility refs, or maybe everyone that has reffed at least X matches competently, with "competent" being defined as "little to no errors." and all calculations, RNG rolls, etc. shown.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Or we can start with a baseline of no one is yet qualified to self-ref. I really don't think any of us who know we're competent will give two shits about being asked to demonstrate a match to the heads of the program.

 

[akela]

Facility refs will not get a free pass. Some of the current facility refs have a nasty habit of refusing to correct mistakes, not showing RNG rolls, not showing calculations, and "forgetting" to ref what they agreed to ref.

 

[Frosty]

I have mixed feelings about flashies (well ain't I the hypocrit one) and self-reffing in general, so I will refrain from saying much as far as self-reffing goes.

But I need to do just point something out: Any measure that comes to boost training matches should bare in mind that they are the mean not the end. While I feel that some may disagree with me here, people train up pokemon (mean) to use in specific matches/raids/tourneys/gyms/combee battles/RPs/etc (goal). This isn't The Sims.

Any Ref training system should be geared to make better refs in general, mostly for matches that require high-performance from refs, like again: Raids, TLR, Gyms, RPs such as Adventure Battles (not facilities though...except maybe Battles 8 and onwards from Subway/Arcade and Gold Pike...maybe). If they can self-ref too, terrific, I guess. But again, that shouldn't (and I don't think will be considering what akela said) be the goal of the system.

I just cower in fear at the thought of we having more flashies and less actual battles. While on a rational point of view, it seems unlikely, think about it. You will get counters fast and you like those, so your instincts are to get more counters. You don't get counters as fast with serious matches, so you will probably take them as side-jobs of sorts (again: instinctively).

If we aren't careful, we may end up reducing the number of serious matches by creating some kind of training frenzy that takes up our free time (I can't count the number of times the hypocrit in me spent good time on a flash while there were a good number of gym matches I needed to ref) and battle slots. Again, it doesn't seem rational, but it may happen and it is more probable than you may think.

To be clear: I am not saying that self-reffing by itself will cause that, nor am I being against the idea as whole. Same goes for flashies in general. Both have their advantages. I am just saying that we should be careful while discussing and implementing this so it doesn't back fire.

Maybe I am just allucinating or reading too many Stephen King novels (highly likely). But I feel that should be taken in mind.

 

[youngjake93]

I have mixed feelings about flashies (well ain't I the hypocrit one) and self-reffing in general, so I will refrain from saying much as far as self-reffing goes.

But I need to do just point something out: Any measure that comes to boost training matches should bare in mind that they are the mean not the end. While I feel that some may disagree with me here, people train up pokemon (mean) to use in specific matches/raids/tourneys/gyms/combee battles/RPs/etc (goal). This isn't The Sims.

Any Ref training system should be geared to make better refs in general, mostly for matches that require high-performance from refs, like again: Raids, TLR, Gyms, RPs such as Adventure Battles (not facilities though...except maybe Battles 8 and onwards from Subway/Arcade and Gold Pike...maybe). If they can self-ref too, terrific, I guess. But again, that shouldn't (and I don't think will be considering what akela said) be the goal of the system.

I just cower in fear at the thought of we having more flashies and less actual battles. While on a rational point of view, it seems unlikely, think about it. You will get counters fast and you like those, so your instincts are to get more counters. You don't get counters as fast with serious matches, so you will probably take them as side-jobs of sorts (again: instinctively).

If we aren't careful, we may end up reducing the number of serious matches by creating some kind of training frenzy that takes up our free time (I can't count the number of times the hypocrit in me spent good time on a flash while there were a good number of gym matches) and battle slots. Again, it doesn't seem rational, but it may happen and it is more probable than you may think.

To be clear: I am not saying that self-reffing by itself will cause that, nor am I being against the idea as whole. Same goes for flashies in general. I am just saying that we should be careful while discussing and implementing this so it doesn't back fire.

Maybe I am just allucinating or reading too many Stephen King novels (highly likely). But I feel that should be taken in mind.

If you limit self-reffed matches to 1 per person at a time, then this wouldn't happen. Most people save their last slot for flashes anyway, so not much changes there and the other 2 slots could more easily go to serious matches.
Self-reffing actually might increase serious match activity because there will be less need to use two or three slots on shorter matches if you can use your self-ref slot to bang out your flashes quickly.
It's hard to say exactly will be the end-result on the community, but trying to figure it out with speculation rather than a trial run seems silly.

 

[Frosty]

Do trials runs sure. But don't make changes you can't revert or without caution (a 1-slot limit is a good example of what I am trying to say, although I am not sure it will be enough...but it warrants testings).

Plan and execute stuff yeah. But do this bearing in mind what may happen. I mean...there is no sudden need to implement this asap in full potential or the world will explode. This isn't an emergency. We can afford to move this forward with baby steps.

 

[Birkal]

Formal Proposal

1. Referee Training Program for new referees is set up. Led by two or three individuals. Traditionally, trainers referee three regular battles under tutelage from a tutor referee who shows them the ropes. Will include an array of matches (Items = On / Switch = OK / Obscure Arenas / etc).
2. A whitelist of users approved for self-refereeing is created by the leaders, based on general competency and game understanding.
3. Go through the program to get whitelisted.
4. Upon completion of the program, users get a free Exp. Share and are whitelisted.
5. Limit self-refereeing to 1v1 and 2v2 matches.
6. Limit self-refereeing to one match at a time.
7. Limit self-refereeing to three matches within a 24 hour time span (e.g. once the first match begins, you need to wait 24 hours before starting a fourth).
8. Program is run by head(s) and is updated frequently (like any other facility).
9. KOC is not rewarded in these battles.
10. All other forms of refereeing and battling still remain.
​

 

[ZhengTann]

Feedback if I may, though to be honest, I'm biased against the idea of self-refereeing. Looking at that proposal, there's a main hiccup for points 6 and 7. While limiting it to small matches can be easily enforced via claim approvals, it would be much more difficult to try to police the timestamps of self-reffed matches, in order to enforce the two rules pointed out. Much like the 3-slot Tower battles, we will have to rely on community self-regulation, and I for one already knew that there were instances when there are people engaged in more than 3 Tower battles at once (including myself, in shame). But if nobody else has an itch with that then I suppose I'll stop scratching it.

Also I suppose these Referee Leaders (or whatever they may be dubbed) will be held, or delegated, by the forum moderators - since they of all people would be the most likely to have the clearest insight to a player's understanding, stay within the community for the longest period, and be the least prone to LoAs. Might have to mention that even small matches cannot be self-reffed unless they come with a "Self-Reffing Allowed" or "Training Match" tag or something.

* * * * * * *​

EDIT: A week gone since this post, so it's safe to say adjourning to Voting. Slate as follows:

What needs to be done with the reffing system?
Implement Birkal's proposal
No changes

Thank you for your time. Mods may close this thread.