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Other OU Playstyle of the Week - Balance
- Thread starter Subject 18
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I cannot contribute anything relevant about the efficacy of balance in the current metagame since I haven't played a match in more than three months.
Balanced defensive Pokemon's primary defensive role is to either (1) stop threatening sweepers with a combination of bulk and power or (2) to sponge hits, which can slow the pace of the game down, favorably exchange hits for the benefit of the team, and provide momentum. Unlike stall Pokemon, which have a specialized role, they are less likely to give up free turns and can function more independently. However, defensive balanced Pokemon can be easily worn down since they are more heavily dependent on their items or recovery moves to heal (if they have access to it), and usually do not have enjoy cleric or Wish support that more defensive teams use, probably due to the balance team's philosophy of having an offensive presence. Balanced defense Pokemon are built to be used tactically in the sense they have the ability to force advantageous exchanges for their team.
My previous "defensive" core was a physically defensive Rotom-W, Max attack Lando-T (for KOing max HP Mega Mawile), and an Assault Vest Conkeldurr. This was supplemented by two sweepers (LO Gengar w/ Sludge Bomb and Thundurus) and a wallbreaker SpecialSub LO Kyurem-B. I thought Kyurem-B was the weak link on this team, especially since it did not feature a Defogger so it can switch more freely when forced by something faster, carrying a super-effective move, but Kyurem-B performed well in specific contexts. I only used the that team in 34 battles.
Also, I did use bulk as a means of gathering information about a Pokemon's EVs, whether the are invested in attack or not, so I could see how my other Pokemon would be expected to perform in a match-up. Bulk also enables me to survive some hits so I can gauge my opponent's playing patterns. I like to use spammable attacks to discourage predicted switch-ins, such as Knock Off on Conkeldurr on Heatran (against a player who thinks I will use Drain Punch) or Hydro Pump spam on Rotom-W as a means to deter possible Ground switch-ins.
As for myself, I did not use Choice items since I wanted to retain the flexibility of my offensive Pokemon (with the exception of Scarf Genesect) and reduce the reliance on prediction.
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The balanced playing style requires a tactical battling orientation with a strong emphasis on team-building (since it strongly emphasizes on reacting to metagame trends and the contingencies of battle). Stall teams also strongly emphasis team-building and metagame knowledge, but they tend be more strategic in achieve their objectives which is to preserve Pokemon to deal with certain threats while a balanced player is more willing to exchange their Pokemon.
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What I like to know about balanced is whether there is an advantage in running dual Stealth Rock users to relieve pressure on one of them, but it seems that a given pair of Stealth Rock users exacerbates a team's weakness to some specific Pokemon. For instance, Lando-T and Skarmory would be weak to Rotom-W; Tyranitar and Lando-T fall to Gliscor. Ferrothorn and Lando-T may work out but Rotom-W can burn both of them (and just do not like Ferrothorn as a Stealth Rock setter when it is weak to Talonflame's Brave Bird)
Indeed, I would say that the defining feature of a "balanced" team is its flexibility to deal with various threats present in the metagame, and have a chance to win against multiple playing style and oppose Pokemon cores. Also, it seems that this style emphasizes team construction more heavily than other playing styles, since the team would often need to slow the pace of the match down against certain opposing Pokemon (and would need a core that could avoid being 2HKOed by various threats) and needs to apply offensive pressure when necessary to expediently deal with stall cores.
This is a good disquisition about the qualities of a good, defensive balanced Pokemon: one that has staying power in terms of bulk and can pose an offensive threat using its attacking moves (such as a high natural Attack or Special stat), threat of a burn, or good dual STAB coverage to prevent the Pokemon from being set-up bait and yielding a free-turn. Either the opponent has to either attack It can also have status moves than can cripple problematic Pokemon by removing their Speed or dropping their attack status. I did not consider using Skarmory over physical Rotom-W or Lando-T due to its lack of offensive presence, since it could just delay the inevitable by Whirlwinding out a threat.
Balanced defensive Pokemon's primary defensive role is to either (1) stop threatening sweepers with a combination of bulk and power or (2) to sponge hits, which can slow the pace of the game down, favorably exchange hits for the benefit of the team, and provide momentum. Unlike stall Pokemon, which have a specialized role, they are less likely to give up free turns and can function more independently. However, defensive balanced Pokemon can be easily worn down since they are more heavily dependent on their items or recovery moves to heal (if they have access to it), and usually do not have enjoy cleric or Wish support that more defensive teams use, probably due to the balance team's philosophy of having an offensive presence. Balanced defense Pokemon are built to be used tactically in the sense they have the ability to force advantageous exchanges for their team.
My previous "defensive" core was a physically defensive Rotom-W, Max attack Lando-T (for KOing max HP Mega Mawile), and an Assault Vest Conkeldurr. This was supplemented by two sweepers (LO Gengar w/ Sludge Bomb and Thundurus) and a wallbreaker SpecialSub LO Kyurem-B. I thought Kyurem-B was the weak link on this team, especially since it did not feature a Defogger so it can switch more freely when forced by something faster, carrying a super-effective move, but Kyurem-B performed well in specific contexts. I only used the that team in 34 battles.
Also, I did use bulk as a means of gathering information about a Pokemon's EVs, whether the are invested in attack or not, so I could see how my other Pokemon would be expected to perform in a match-up. Bulk also enables me to survive some hits so I can gauge my opponent's playing patterns. I like to use spammable attacks to discourage predicted switch-ins, such as Knock Off on Conkeldurr on Heatran (against a player who thinks I will use Drain Punch) or Hydro Pump spam on Rotom-W as a means to deter possible Ground switch-ins.
As for myself, I did not use Choice items since I wanted to retain the flexibility of my offensive Pokemon (with the exception of Scarf Genesect) and reduce the reliance on prediction.
Balance can use a few revenge killers or sweepers, particularly those with at an important metagame benchmark (Thundurus best exemplifies this since it positive-natured Thundurus outspeeds Adamant Talonflame and base 110s), or Pokemon with powerful priority.
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I never had a specific winning condition on my team; the tactical orientation of balance requires one to create their own winning conditions with their Pokemon based on the composition of the opponent's team, their available Pokemon, and opponent's Pokemon. A balanced player often constructs impromptu strategic objectives based on the current battle situation, such as preserving certain Pokemon to be used later in a late game sweep or taking out a certain problematic Pokemon on the opposing team by putting it, or threatening to, in KO range for another Pokemon on your team.
The balanced playing style requires a tactical battling orientation with a strong emphasis on team-building (since it strongly emphasizes on reacting to metagame trends and the contingencies of battle). Stall teams also strongly emphasis team-building and metagame knowledge, but they tend be more strategic in achieve their objectives which is to preserve Pokemon to deal with certain threats while a balanced player is more willing to exchange their Pokemon.
===
What I like to know about balanced is whether there is an advantage in running dual Stealth Rock users to relieve pressure on one of them, but it seems that a given pair of Stealth Rock users exacerbates a team's weakness to some specific Pokemon. For instance, Lando-T and Skarmory would be weak to Rotom-W; Tyranitar and Lando-T fall to Gliscor. Ferrothorn and Lando-T may work out but Rotom-W can burn both of them (and just do not like Ferrothorn as a Stealth Rock setter when it is weak to Talonflame's Brave Bird)
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I really liked that post, but that part right there made me a saaaaad Panda. It seems like balanced is really fun to play, but I'm a terrible teambuilder, so it might not be for me.
On a semi-related note: how many games should you play with a team to really get an overview of its performance? I tend to scrap teams after 5-6 games if I don't like them, but that also means I start from scratch often, which doesn't exactly help. Does it make more sense to stick with your general team idea and switch single pokes or movesets?
I'm not a particularly good teambuilder, but the balanced team that I have had most success with consisted of CMfable, BulkyZard, Prankster thundurus, Scarf Lanto-t, Skarm and Azumarill. I don't know how obvious it is but this team was built when mega pinsir was all the rage.
It could beat HO most of the time, but when I broke the 1750-1800 elo point the stall players started to become smarter and played around magic guard clefable alot better. At that point it was quite annoying to get anywhere, because the stall teams started to become real roadblocks.
Still, I beleive that MG CMfable is a great pokemon to use on balanced teams as it helps combat stall and can quite easily sweep offensive teams too as long as certain threats are crippled/eliminated. It is also a very reliable sweeper (at some point you can basically say "ok, NOW i definitely sweep him!").
Prankster thundurus is pretty much a must to not get demolished. Do carry something for mawile too. Burns are your friend.
It could beat HO most of the time, but when I broke the 1750-1800 elo point the stall players started to become smarter and played around magic guard clefable alot better. At that point it was quite annoying to get anywhere, because the stall teams started to become real roadblocks.
Still, I beleive that MG CMfable is a great pokemon to use on balanced teams as it helps combat stall and can quite easily sweep offensive teams too as long as certain threats are crippled/eliminated. It is also a very reliable sweeper (at some point you can basically say "ok, NOW i definitely sweep him!").
Prankster thundurus is pretty much a must to not get demolished. Do carry something for mawile too. Burns are your friend.
Dont know about others but for my current main team I started testing on the last suspect ladder and I still dont consider that team to be optimal, I am still tweaking and testing things here and there. But I guess for a good overview ~50 Games should be enough.
He is, and has good reason to be. He described exactly what a Choiced Chansey can still do, which is come in on pretty much any special attacker it normally would and do 1 of the things it normally does, whether it be pass a Wish to something which then essentially comes in to the current threat without losing any health, use Heal Bell, or if it's low on health, Softboiled up so it can come in and do the aforementioned things again later. He wasn't saying it isn't crippled, but it's still far from useless and can still support the team surprisingly well considering the circumstances.
If you start a team from scratch, i feel you really need a high amount of battles to judge all its potential : at least 20-30, so you can encounter several stall, offensive and balanced opponents and most of OU's threats.
First, you're not used to it, so you don't use it very effectively at the beginning : some losses might not be the team's fault but your's.
Then, if you start low on the ladder, you encounter a lot of weird things for at least a dozen of battles : it's good to see if your team can handle that, but not enough to see how it performs in the established meta and against higher ranked opponents.
I'd say once you reach 1500~ elo, you can judge if your team is great or not, and the amount of tweaks it needs.
But it also means the team (and you) should be good enough to reach that threshold right from the start !
This is why building a balanced team requires a lot of thinking, it should be good enough on paper to drive you high enough on the ladder. Once you're there, with decent opponents and the established meta, you are in "benchmark zone" and can build up.
I feel balanced teams need this benchmark phasis more than other playstyles because they are extremely sensitive to the meta, since they are supposed to be defensive enough to check everything, and offensive enough to damage everything. The gameplan isn't obvious, you tend not to lead with the same pokemon too often, you don't need to preserve the same pokemon everytime...
It takes time to find the correct cursor's position.
I disencourage changing too many things at a time. Change one thing, play for a while, see how it goes, and then move on to the next change.
There usually are several "good" options available when you attempt a modification, so it's really important to take the necessary amount of time to make the "right" choice.
If you modify 3 things at once, unless those are small obvious tweaks (EV's, coverage move), it's hard to compare objectively which of those changes were really needed.
First, you're not used to it, so you don't use it very effectively at the beginning : some losses might not be the team's fault but your's.
Then, if you start low on the ladder, you encounter a lot of weird things for at least a dozen of battles : it's good to see if your team can handle that, but not enough to see how it performs in the established meta and against higher ranked opponents.
I'd say once you reach 1500~ elo, you can judge if your team is great or not, and the amount of tweaks it needs.
But it also means the team (and you) should be good enough to reach that threshold right from the start !
This is why building a balanced team requires a lot of thinking, it should be good enough on paper to drive you high enough on the ladder. Once you're there, with decent opponents and the established meta, you are in "benchmark zone" and can build up.
I feel balanced teams need this benchmark phasis more than other playstyles because they are extremely sensitive to the meta, since they are supposed to be defensive enough to check everything, and offensive enough to damage everything. The gameplan isn't obvious, you tend not to lead with the same pokemon too often, you don't need to preserve the same pokemon everytime...
It takes time to find the correct cursor's position.
I disencourage changing too many things at a time. Change one thing, play for a while, see how it goes, and then move on to the next change.
There usually are several "good" options available when you attempt a modification, so it's really important to take the necessary amount of time to make the "right" choice.
If you modify 3 things at once, unless those are small obvious tweaks (EV's, coverage move), it's hard to compare objectively which of those changes were really needed.
I'm at around 1500 on the ladder, so now might be a good time to start testing a balanced team. I'll see what I can come up with. And yeah, I still have quite a lot of situations were I lose due to crucial (and mostly dumb) mistakes, like leaving a Poke in that is promptly OHKO'd or making the wrong switches, but I feel like that will (only) get better with time since you need to get used to sets and coverage moves that Pokes can be running and also get a feel for what you outspeed and/or OHKO/2HKO and vice versa (instead of looking it up every time which I'm often too lazy to do).
A set that I have been using for quite some time with a surprising amount of success is Stallbreaker Talonflame, now before all of you jump on the hate train, here me out. The set that I currently run has just enough speed to outrun Deo-D and Taunt it before it can set up as a lead. It also runs a great utility move in WoW which allows it to hurt and pretty much neuter the majority of it's common switch ins for the remainder of the match. On top of that Talon has enough survivability through, not only, it's investment in bulk; but also Roost - it can stick around until late game and lay the hurt with 252+ Brave Bird which hurts. Talonflame also has a surprising number of key resistances that can better suit a balance team, resisting Ground, Grass, Fighting, Fairy, Steel, Bug & Fire, it can switch into a plethora of common stall Pokemon, shut them down with Taunt and start spreading burns. If you would like more information on this Talonflame please see a more in-depth description I have posted here. Balance teams also tend to lean towards more stricter hazard control not only to limit HO from wearing them down, but also prevent stall from doing the same thing, which greatly benefits this set. IMO this variant of Talonflame represents a perfect balance between offense and defense, limiting the opportunity for teams to sweep through a powerful Brave Bird, fast (enough) Taunt & Will-o-Wisp and staying power with Roost.
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def/ 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp / Flareblitz
- Taunt
- Roost
I have consistently sat around the 1750-1850 mark running this variant of Talonflame on the majority of my teams.
Replays:
Stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-117751419
Stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-117744693
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def/ 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Will-O-Wisp / Flareblitz
- Taunt
- Roost
I have consistently sat around the 1750-1850 mark running this variant of Talonflame on the majority of my teams.
Replays:
Stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-117751419
Stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-117744693
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daftmau5's recent experiences in balanced/bulky offense teambuilding:
I recently built a balanced/bulky offense team which reached 59 on the ladder and is still hovering around there so i'll try and share my experiences in the team building process. Before i begin, please take my post with a grain of salt as i've only been playing hyper offense ever since i got in competitive battling in Gen 5 and this is my first attempt at balance.
First of all, here is a link to my team.
I still class myself as a beginner in regards to this playstyle as having played exclusively Hyper Offense up until the last week but hopefully someone finds this post helpful. I'm open to criticism in regards to my teambuilding process so please fire away :) I wouldn't be surprised at all if i managed to make a decent team quite serendipitously and my thought process was complete baloney.
TL;DR: My balance/bulky offense team = a specially defensive cleric, an unstoppable wallbreaker, a powerful late game cleaner/revenge killer, a hazard setter, a physically defensive defogger, and of course stars a bulky setup sweeper as the win condition.
I recently built a balanced/bulky offense team which reached 59 on the ladder and is still hovering around there so i'll try and share my experiences in the team building process. Before i begin, please take my post with a grain of salt as i've only been playing hyper offense ever since i got in competitive battling in Gen 5 and this is my first attempt at balance.
First of all, here is a link to my team.
I really wanted to make a team around Mega Scizor after seeing the bulky SD set (Bullet Punch, Knock off, Roost, Swords Dance) in the forums so that was my starting point. Next, I actually played around with the EV spread to give it mixed bulk as opposed to purely focusing on one side of the spectrum as in the suggested spread. My plan was to give Mega Scizor a better chance to setup on common OU mons. I used Landorus-T and Aegislash as physical and special benchmarks and thus EV'd my Mega Scizor to avoid 2HKOs from both of them (assuming no life orb/choice item). Incidentally, it has allowed me to setup all over mons such as Excadrill and AV Conkeldurr.
Once i was happy with the spread, i needed to be able to support it. Immediately Life Orb Greninja and Choice Specs Keldeo came to mind as 2 powerful special attackers that could destroy my Mega Scizor and so i decided to use Specially Defensive Sylveon to take them on. I deemed that the standard cleric set was perfect as it would allow me to play recklessly with Scizor as it has access to heal bell and wish support from Sylveon. Additionally, Scizor covers Sylveon's 2 weaknesses (Poison and Steel) and can also take heavy physical attacks aimed at Sylveon.
Next I realised i needed something to get stealth rock up with and Heatran sounded like a good option as it could switch in on fire blasts aimed at Scizor and score a Flash Fire boost. Spreading Lava Plume burns + toxic would also rack up residual damage alongside stealth rock that would aid Scizor in sweeping. Lava Plume is perfect for taking down FerroSkarm which while Scizor is able to beat, slows down its sweep.
Having selected a specially defensive set to maximise Heatran's bulk in conjunction with wish support from Sylveon i realised that my team had very little immediate power and that it could be played around very easily by stall. Landorus-I jumped out as a great wallbreaking candidate with immediate fire power. I realised that the wallbreaker set of Knock off, Earth Power, Psychic and Focus Blast would be an awesome way to burst open holes that would allow Scizor to rampage through late in the game.
Next i realised that i needed a method of hazard control since it will help my team support each other better. Mandibuzz was a great option as a defogger as it added awesome physical and reasonable special bulk while being able to check and deal consistent damage to physical attackers such as Zard X and Mega Pinsir with Foul Play. I ended up running 92 speed + a rocky helmet on Mandibuzz to beat Jolly BD Azu (65% with +6 foul play and 12% rocky helmet dmg) as my team was extremely weak to BD Azumarill despite being able to handle a choice banded one. Due to running such a high amount of speed, Taunt was a logical to round off the set and has proven to be worth it's weight in gold against stall teams and annoying stuff like Sub/Toxic Aegi. Thank you Nog for helping me a lot with this set btw.
Finally my team needed a revenge killer and late game cleaner and the logical option was Choice Scarf Garchomp. I kept the moveset extremely standard as Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake and Stone Edge are all necessary in their own right. Garchomp also works extremely well in that it can create whole for Scizor to punch through or pick off whatever Scizor couldn't.
And that's the story of how i put together my team.
Once i was happy with the spread, i needed to be able to support it. Immediately Life Orb Greninja and Choice Specs Keldeo came to mind as 2 powerful special attackers that could destroy my Mega Scizor and so i decided to use Specially Defensive Sylveon to take them on. I deemed that the standard cleric set was perfect as it would allow me to play recklessly with Scizor as it has access to heal bell and wish support from Sylveon. Additionally, Scizor covers Sylveon's 2 weaknesses (Poison and Steel) and can also take heavy physical attacks aimed at Sylveon.
Next I realised i needed something to get stealth rock up with and Heatran sounded like a good option as it could switch in on fire blasts aimed at Scizor and score a Flash Fire boost. Spreading Lava Plume burns + toxic would also rack up residual damage alongside stealth rock that would aid Scizor in sweeping. Lava Plume is perfect for taking down FerroSkarm which while Scizor is able to beat, slows down its sweep.
Having selected a specially defensive set to maximise Heatran's bulk in conjunction with wish support from Sylveon i realised that my team had very little immediate power and that it could be played around very easily by stall. Landorus-I jumped out as a great wallbreaking candidate with immediate fire power. I realised that the wallbreaker set of Knock off, Earth Power, Psychic and Focus Blast would be an awesome way to burst open holes that would allow Scizor to rampage through late in the game.
Next i realised that i needed a method of hazard control since it will help my team support each other better. Mandibuzz was a great option as a defogger as it added awesome physical and reasonable special bulk while being able to check and deal consistent damage to physical attackers such as Zard X and Mega Pinsir with Foul Play. I ended up running 92 speed + a rocky helmet on Mandibuzz to beat Jolly BD Azu (65% with +6 foul play and 12% rocky helmet dmg) as my team was extremely weak to BD Azumarill despite being able to handle a choice banded one. Due to running such a high amount of speed, Taunt was a logical to round off the set and has proven to be worth it's weight in gold against stall teams and annoying stuff like Sub/Toxic Aegi. Thank you Nog for helping me a lot with this set btw.
Finally my team needed a revenge killer and late game cleaner and the logical option was Choice Scarf Garchomp. I kept the moveset extremely standard as Outrage, Dragon Claw, Earthquake and Stone Edge are all necessary in their own right. Garchomp also works extremely well in that it can create whole for Scizor to punch through or pick off whatever Scizor couldn't.
And that's the story of how i put together my team.
I'm a bit of a dunce and have forgotten to save replays of my team working perfectly. Hopefully these replays can still give you a glimpse of what it is capable of:
I still class myself as a beginner in regards to this playstyle as having played exclusively Hyper Offense up until the last week but hopefully someone finds this post helpful. I'm open to criticism in regards to my teambuilding process so please fire away :) I wouldn't be surprised at all if i managed to make a decent team quite serendipitously and my thought process was complete baloney.
TL;DR: My balance/bulky offense team = a specially defensive cleric, an unstoppable wallbreaker, a powerful late game cleaner/revenge killer, a hazard setter, a physically defensive defogger, and of course stars a bulky setup sweeper as the win condition.
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Balanced teams are possibly my favorite to make, simply because I naturally fall into it, however, I still have a ways to go.
My main poke, however, is Chesnaught.
Naute: Impish
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof (duh)
Leech Seed
Synthesis
Hammer Arm
Spiky Shield
Man, this thing is amazingly underrated. It does its job so well. It is surprisingly tanky to powerful neutral attacks, and very easy to play mind games with. Leech Seed, being one of the best debilitating moves in the game, will always catch people on the switch, making it that much easier for their counters to come in. I can pop in on, say, Excadrill, and immediately send off a Leech Seed, since they will obviously switch to their Talonflame or whatever. Spiky Shield allows me to gauge what their next move is, and I can punish an overly eager opponent. Synthesis is the icing on the cake, as it keeps him alive, and Hammer Arm is what makes him a threat to begin with.
I think Chesnaught is a shining example of a perfect Pokemon for a balanced team. He hits hard enough to be threatening, yet he isn't fast enough to be a threat on his own. He is able to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side with Leech Seed, and can do something directly to things that scares him off; the only save switch in is a grass type, a Magic Guard/Bounce user, or Tentacruel. He's self sustaining, and most importantly he can run many different sets. Don't need him to seed? Give him Roar to handle setter-uppers. He is also a perfect fall guy for Knock Off; sure, he may miss his Lefties, but between Leech Seed and Synthesis, you shouldn't need it all too much.
My main poke, however, is Chesnaught.
Naute: Impish
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof (duh)
Leech Seed
Synthesis
Hammer Arm
Spiky Shield
Man, this thing is amazingly underrated. It does its job so well. It is surprisingly tanky to powerful neutral attacks, and very easy to play mind games with. Leech Seed, being one of the best debilitating moves in the game, will always catch people on the switch, making it that much easier for their counters to come in. I can pop in on, say, Excadrill, and immediately send off a Leech Seed, since they will obviously switch to their Talonflame or whatever. Spiky Shield allows me to gauge what their next move is, and I can punish an overly eager opponent. Synthesis is the icing on the cake, as it keeps him alive, and Hammer Arm is what makes him a threat to begin with.
I think Chesnaught is a shining example of a perfect Pokemon for a balanced team. He hits hard enough to be threatening, yet he isn't fast enough to be a threat on his own. He is able to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side with Leech Seed, and can do something directly to things that scares him off; the only save switch in is a grass type, a Magic Guard/Bounce user, or Tentacruel. He's self sustaining, and most importantly he can run many different sets. Don't need him to seed? Give him Roar to handle setter-uppers. He is also a perfect fall guy for Knock Off; sure, he may miss his Lefties, but between Leech Seed and Synthesis, you shouldn't need it all too much.
Chesnaught has two big issues in OU, pinsir and talonflame. This makes it difficult to rely on chesnaught as a physical wall.Balanced teams are possibly my favorite to make, simply because I naturally fall into it, however, I still have a ways to go.
My main poke, however, is Chesnaught.
Naute: Impish
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof (duh)
Leech Seed
Synthesis
Hammer Arm
Spiky Shield
Man, this thing is amazingly underrated. It does its job so well. It is surprisingly tanky to powerful neutral attacks, and very easy to play mind games with. Leech Seed, being one of the best debilitating moves in the game, will always catch people on the switch, making it that much easier for their counters to come in. I can pop in on, say, Excadrill, and immediately send off a Leech Seed, since they will obviously switch to their Talonflame or whatever. Spiky Shield allows me to gauge what their next move is, and I can punish an overly eager opponent. Synthesis is the icing on the cake, as it keeps him alive, and Hammer Arm is what makes him a threat to begin with.
I think Chesnaught is a shining example of a perfect Pokemon for a balanced team. He hits hard enough to be threatening, yet he isn't fast enough to be a threat on his own. He is able to be a constant thorn in the enemy's side with Leech Seed, and can do something directly to things that scares him off; the only save switch in is a grass type, a Magic Guard/Bounce user, or Tentacruel. He's self sustaining, and most importantly he can run many different sets. Don't need him to seed? Give him Roar to handle setter-uppers. He is also a perfect fall guy for Knock Off; sure, he may miss his Lefties, but between Leech Seed and Synthesis, you shouldn't need it all too much.
Not saying he's unworkable, but those are two big threats that get free switch ins to him, and can deal a lot of damage if given a free turn. This requires consideration on any team that's even CONSIDERING chesnaught.
Um, yeah. That's why he's not a physical wall, more of a balanced pivot, or a "check", if you will. Perhaps even a tank. Never did mention him as a wall of any sorts. No offense, but...duh, he's weak to Talonflame, yet strong to many, many other things.
First, Talonflame and Pinsir do not get free switch ins if you have Leech Seed, and second...get Stealth Rock, Ttar, Skarmory, whatever is your Pinsir and Talonflame check. This has been spoken about many, many times. If your using Chesnaught, hell, any Pokemon, you're using them with the consideration that their weaknesses have been handled. I mean you have team preview, a Talonflame switch is so predicted it isn't even funny.
Sorry if there's an edge in the tone of my writing, but this has been discussed to death, and is such a base point I'm surprised to even see it up. Hell, compared to everything else he does well, a weakness to Talonflame, which is so easy to handle (but must always be considered) isn't much to make a big deal out of.
sims796
Ok, fair enough. For some reason I thought you were using him as a wall (it looked like a wall set, forgive me). Pinsir and Tflame don't give a crap about leech seed to be quite honest, as they kill darn near anything at +2 or +4. They do care a lot about SR, but that can be difficult to keep up and chesnaught does rather little to prevent the enemy from removing it.
You make good points, and chesnaught definitely has strengths, but he needs a lot of team support to cover his weaknesses.
Ok, fair enough. For some reason I thought you were using him as a wall (it looked like a wall set, forgive me). Pinsir and Tflame don't give a crap about leech seed to be quite honest, as they kill darn near anything at +2 or +4. They do care a lot about SR, but that can be difficult to keep up and chesnaught does rather little to prevent the enemy from removing it.
You make good points, and chesnaught definitely has strengths, but he needs a lot of team support to cover his weaknesses.
A lot? It's ranked B in the viability thread for a reason. It's a defensive mon, only meant to scare certain pokes away. It needs no support insofar as other support mons do. Hell, he may even fit into a defensive core. Look at the Chesnaught analysis thread. I...honestly shouldn't have to repeat everything said there. You don't just throw it on your team willy-nilly, you do so in order to take out certain threats and to sew havock. We shouldn't even bother mentioning Talonflame and Pinsir because...duh. You use him to beat Ttar, Bisharp, most Aegislash, most Scizor, most Garchomp, etc, etc, etc. The only support he needs is the regular support that a defensive poke would need, i.e. to cover things he does not check.
Incidentally, everything cares about Leech Seed, it's that annoying. I'm not saying that it's something that will stop those mons cold, but it will at least have an effect against predicted switch-ins. I can guarentee that everyone here that uses it will usually seed one mon, then immediately seed their expected switch.
As stated, simply harping on weaknesses and blowing them up as if it's that damning does not make it so. Damning, that is. Used right, and you have a solid mon in your team, that more and more players are recognizing. Used poorly, and you have Talon-fodder.
EDIT:To sum it up; if you're afraid of using Chesnaught because of a Talonflame/Pinsir weakness, there is something wrong with your team as a whole. Maybe it cant fit in your team, maybe it can barely handle Talon, but either way, it shouldn't be a huge problem to a well made team.
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons that Chestnaught is good is he single handedly checks 1/2 of a typical DeoSharp team - Bisharp, Aegislash, and Excadrill if used. Having a solid answer to these mons is great on Balance teams, using just one pokemon to check a popular playstyle. As to Talonflame, Chestnaught can't stay in but leech seeding his switch in and then spiky shield takes away 24% of his health that he needs and will stack up later with recoil damage or stealth rock.
Balanced Teams should always have good hazard control and make sure that the hazards don't stack up too much. In the current metagame there are many good Defoggers or spinners but having a spinner is better because it won't give the HO Deosharp teams the edge they want. When you talk about spinning one pokemon is surely to come into your mind, its Excadrill.
Excadrill (M) @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker/Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head/Swords Dance/Stealth Rocks
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill is not only a good spinner but can also serve as a surprise revenge killer(if it has scarf) or late game sweeper(in the sand with sand rush), that is why having him in your team will always put offensive pressure and spin support. Having MB and one of best stab moves i.e. EQ, this thing can be your match winner, be it for a late game sweep or to get rid of rocks for team-mates to move around freely. ScarfDrill is always a good partner of any team, specially those weak to Rocks as it has a quad resistance, and can also spin off the rocks. Scarf along with a neutral nature is good enough for it to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame, unless you are running scarf you should always go for Jolly nature as it lets you outspeed the neutral 100 base speed mons. Sand Rush is also very potent with sand support but looses its MB and becomes vulnerable to Rotom-W, one of the most common pokemon in the current meta. He is able to get his job done most of the time and won't let you down.
Excadrill (M) @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker/Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head/Swords Dance/Stealth Rocks
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill is not only a good spinner but can also serve as a surprise revenge killer(if it has scarf) or late game sweeper(in the sand with sand rush), that is why having him in your team will always put offensive pressure and spin support. Having MB and one of best stab moves i.e. EQ, this thing can be your match winner, be it for a late game sweep or to get rid of rocks for team-mates to move around freely. ScarfDrill is always a good partner of any team, specially those weak to Rocks as it has a quad resistance, and can also spin off the rocks. Scarf along with a neutral nature is good enough for it to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame, unless you are running scarf you should always go for Jolly nature as it lets you outspeed the neutral 100 base speed mons. Sand Rush is also very potent with sand support but looses its MB and becomes vulnerable to Rotom-W, one of the most common pokemon in the current meta. He is able to get his job done most of the time and won't let you down.
I do agree that Bulk Up Talonflame is sort of good but Banded and Sword's Dance Talonflame make it irrelavant because Talonflame does not get a very good typing so trying to be THAT bulky doesn't work out. Furfrou is NU and I'll admit it has nice defense but no resistances, easy to just kill with any special sweeper, and a very bad movepool. I don't see the synergy in this core aside from Talonflame taking special hits and Furfrou taking physical hits.Hi! This is my first time posting in a thread like this, so I'll do my best. >.>
I'd like to talk about one very unique set and one very unique Pokemon that work very well in this balanced thread. One is Talonflame with a very interesting set, and the other is Furfrou. (Not a shitty gimmick, I swear)
Talonflame @ Leftovers/Shell Bell
EV: 252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Atk (Careful/Adamant)
Brave Bird
Will-O-Wisp/Flare Blitz
Roost
Bulk Up
OVERVIEW: Now I know what you are thinking. What?! A Talonflame with almost no Attack investment? Now let me say, this IS a weird set. I can admit that it doesn't always work. Now logically, most people will switch in a Talonflame counter, ones that come to mind are Tyranitar and Landorus-T. Once the Will-O-Wisp is up, those those threats are pretty much neutralized. Bulk Up also allows Talonflame to set up on opponents that would normally fare well, say, Garchomp. This is a VERY underrated set, when most people usually accept Talonflame as a Bander, which to me, is a waste of its potential. Flare Blitz, if you choose to run, prevents Steel-Type walling.
What this set does well against: Pretty much anything with low defenses, and a lot of usual Talonflame counters that have issues once a Bulk Up is up.
What this set struggles against: Rotom. Freaking. Wash.
Furfrou @ Leftovers/Lum Berry
EV: 252 Def, 252 HP, 4 SpD/ 4 Atk (Impish)
Return
Toxic/Roar
Cotton Guard
Refresh/Rest
OVERVIEW: Dear GOD how is thing in RU? People are beginning to realize the absolute PAIN Furfrou can really be. A great teammate to Careful Talonflame, if the opponent is left with physical attackers, and Furfrou gets up a Cotton Guard, GG. One of the single most underrated physical tanks EVER, Furfrou is sure to make any physical attacker throw their Pokeball in rage.
What this set does well against: Basically, any physical attacker ever. Furfrou has the highest base speed out of any tank I've seen, and she's great at Toxic stalling and taking down foes (If not slowly due to Furfrou's 'ehh' attacking stats.)
What this set struggles against: Mainly, Steel types, and the fact that Furfrou really has no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers and Rest. Not to mention, a physical wall weak to Fighting type isn't the best. However, I was able to slowly take down a Mega Scizor with Return. Slowly. But I won.
So anyways. This is a core I have NEVER seen mentioned, which is a shame. I will post some damage calculations once I get home. I hope this is good enough. ;-; I spent a lot of time designing this lol.
MAWASHFLAME CORE
Nom Nom (Mawile) @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Fang / Knock Off / Focus Punch
- Swords Dance / Substitute
Washington (Rotom-Wash) @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spd
Bold Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest / Pain Split
Twitter (Talonflame) @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tailwind / Taunt
Rotom deals with Heatran which both Talonflame and Mawile have trouble with. Talonflame wears down walls for Mawile and deals with Mega Venusaur. Mawile deals with Conkeldurr for Rotom Wash more reliable than Talonflame and sweeps perfectly after a well timed Intimidate and all checks and counters gone.
Balanced Teams should always have good hazard control and make sure that the hazards don't stack up too much. In the current metagame there are many good Defoggers or spinners but having a spinner is better because it won't give the HO Deosharp teams the edge they want. When you talk about spinning one pokemon is surely to come into your mind, its Excadrill.
Excadrill (M) @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker/Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head/Swords Dance/Stealth Rocks
- Rapid Spin
Excadrill is not only a good spinner but can also serve as a surprise revenge killer(if it has scarf) or late game sweeper(in the sand with sand rush), that is why having him in your team will always put offensive pressure and spin support. Having MB and one of best stab moves i.e. EQ, this thing can be your match winner, be it for a late game sweep or to get rid of rocks for team-mates to move around freely. ScarfDrill is always a good partner of any team, specially those weak to Rocks as it has a quad resistance, and can also spin off the rocks. Scarf along with a neutral nature is good enough for it to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame, unless you are running scarf you should always go for Jolly nature as it lets you outspeed the neutral 100 base speed mons. Sand Rush is also very potent with sand support but looses its MB and becomes vulnerable to Rotom-W, one of the most common pokemon in the current meta. He is able to get his job done most of the time and won't let you down.
I somewhat pondered Scarf Excadrill + Gravity Landorus can make a good offensive core. I briefly thought about it when one of the first posts mentioned a team using a Gravity Landorus. Some may consider Mold Breaker and Gravity to be redundant, and would prefer to use Scarfchomp, who has high speed, access to Stone Edge (and Fire Blast), and better statistical bulk (but Steel provides a valuable Flying resistance against priority Flying attacks), but Mold Breaker makes Excadrill less reliant on Gravity and it is not tactically limited by the presence of Pokemon with Levitate. In addition, Excadrill's effectiveness as a revenge killer/sweeper is not hampered by Stealth Rock, further increasing this Pokemon's utility. If there is no Gravity, Excadrill can check could threaten to KO 4x Rock weak Pokemon with no prior damage, but it cannot clean-up against weakened team. With Gravity in effect, Excadrill can be an effective cleaner that spams Earthquake in addition to merely revenging.
I thought about using LO Keldeo (can hit both sides and not worry about the inaccuracy of Hydro Pump) and LO Mamoswine (with its excellent movepool), but Keldeo and especially Mamoswine are too slow to exploit Gravity (and Keldeo's sweep can be thwarted by many HO Pokemon).
The tandem of Landorus and Excadrill is kind of like an Alekine's gun since you have two powerful Ground attacks that are difficult to block due to Mold Breaker and Gravity, similar to dual Flying teams. I thought Mold Breaker and Gravity would mitigate the impediment of being Choice-locked, and would provide a rather powerful STAB attack. Furthermore, since Excadrill is already weak to Ground attacks, Excadrill isn't adversely affected by Gravity (although the opportunity cost of the Scarf is losing the valuable Air Balloon and this render Excadrill vulnerable to Scarf Lando-T and Garchomp). Furthermore, the Scarf provides a means to avoid being KOed by ubiquitous HO offensive threats, such as Talonflame (could only use Brave Bird/Acrobatics) and Thundurus, although the core should be wary of Azumarill and Deoxys-S.
Gravity Earthquake can kill Skarmory if you sac Landorus to set up Gravity:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 212-252 (63.4 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
although Chansey wouldn't be 2KOed and would stall out Earthquake and precious Gravity turns with Softboiled:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 212-252 (63.4 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Since the core cannot easily dispatch Chansey, it is tempting that Landorus run Superpower in addition to Psychic and Earth Power as opposed to Focus Blast.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 359-424 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 239-283 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Superpower does not require a turn of set-up nor suffers from accuracy issues, but both moves can be stalled out with Softboiled/Wish + Protect if Chansey isn't in KO range. A weakened Chansey and Air Balloon Heatran can be defeated on the switch with Superpower, although the point is likely moot with Heatran since the Balloon can be popped Psychic on the switch.
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Adamant is necessary to cleanly KO Mega Mawile but it cannot do this if it has set-up:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 249-294 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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A Life Orb/Choice Band/Mega Scizor can also work with the core since it acts as an offensive anti-cleric with Superpower and Technician Bullet Punch. Superpower is necessary because it also provides an additional means to pressure Chansey and LO increases the chance Superpower will be in KO range. Furthermore, it allows Scizor to 2HKO Skarmory when Gravity is in effect. Gravity also works against Mandibuzz, making it deadly with U-Turn. Needless to say, Superpower and Bullet Punch with U-Turn will help keep the opponent guessing with the threat of momentum or a KO. Moreover, Technician Bullet Punch is a very strong priority move (aside from Sucker Punch, priority Brave Bird, and Aerilate Quick Attack) and is not affected by recoil, require hazard removal, or can be played around.
Roost seems to be the best fourth move, since it enables it to act as a pivot longer.
Perhaps some speed investment to outspeed uninvested Skarmory, Heatran, and Mandibuzz would be worth it.
Rotom-W or Thundurus-I would be a good fourth partner, since they can deal with. Rotom-W forms a Volt-turn pivot core with Scizor; Thundurus can cripple something for Landorus, and LO HP Ice cleanly deals with Gliscor which wouldn't otherwise be affected by any of Scizor or Excadrill attacks. They both can deal with Skarmory.
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