Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Monte Cristo]

Many pokes can take those 3 moves. Lots of people run air balloon steels like excadrill and aegislash. Also at +2 many pokes can be considered unstoppable and the ones that make the headlines are the ones that are hard to revenge kill and can sweep in a instant. Considering garchomp is weak to ice, fairy, and dragon which are all common types and it doesn't get a priority move can make it pretty easy to counter when we get down to it. Also the first thing someone would probably switch to when a garchomp is sent in is a counter like sk.arm

I don't mean to be condescending in any way but lol if your relying on excadrill or aegis to check garchomp, then your up for a bad time.
Garchomp is let me stress this, is often a wallbreaker when using life orb, tank when using the rocky helmet set, wall when using the specially defensive set to beat char y/aegis, and a sweeper when using bulky swords dance. The fact that it is a wallbreaker, tank, wall and sweeper all separated in different sets, of course. Garchomp can't be 100% countered due to it's wallbreaking sets. I can literally do an analysis breakdown for the counters but I don't think anybody in this thread wants to read an essay. There is no faster (somewhat)viable fairy type faster than Chomp other than Scarf Gardevoir. and it only beats offensive sd/wallbreaker-
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Garchomp is in no way easy to revenge kill due to things such as: naturak bulk, bulky sd EV investment, resist berry, etc.

So instead of putting my words in an odd way in which you could easily miss them (which sorry for doing that before, as you have seemed to have missed some of my points before) let me just put a closing statement here and say: Garchomp has less true counters than Zard X, Lando-I, Thundurus-I (really thundy is only here cause of support through twave, all in all it's extremely easy to counter in my experience) Aegislash. And provides immense utility to the team by being a win condition, wallbreaker, wall, tank or scarfer. Garchomp is overall about the best scarfer in OU right now and it is impossible to outclass, and if you do, your already in S rank and cannot fulfill it's other roles. IDK why people are so opposed to Garchomp, it is a top tier pokemon with high versatility, little counters and a way to blast through all of them and has no other pokemon that outclass it. Plus it has an amazing hipster speed tier :]

 

[Amaan]

I have three sugestions for the rankings

Mega Gardevoir for A- Mega gardevoir is actually a very solid pokemon in the current point in the meta. Baton pass is hell, and taunt Gardy can somewhat destroy it with its stab pixilated hyper voices through subs and a taunt. It can be a problem for stall with the taunt or calm mind set and can do work against hyper offence if backed by a sticky web or a sub or finding an opportunity to come in on a resisted attack and punish all switch ins. The only thing holding mega gardy back is its poor defence, middling speed and that it takes up a mega evo.

Mega Medicham for A- I am not sure why this has not happened yet, mega medicham is such a force to be reckoned with. Its a true pain for balance, behind a sub something in HO is gonna die and nothing in stall wants to switch in. Honestly this thing is great, and with the strongest move in the game at its arsenal, this thing should be A- a the least. The only thing holding this back is its lack of any good priority, borderline speed and that it takes up a mega slot.

Mega Manectric for A- Mega manectric is a very good pokemon in ou. A great pivot with intimidate, it can use its speed to lower the oponents attack then quickly volt switch out into a more preferble match up. Solid coveredge with hp ice and overheat/flamethrower mega manectric is a threat for HO and balanced alike. A solid cleaning move in thunderbolt this thing should be in A- in the least.

Just some discussion points.

No to all three.

Mega Gardevoir is a good stall breaker. But she also has a speed stat of 80 before Mevo an and makes Lucario look bulky. The presence of Aegislash also makes Gardevoirs life hard. Perfect for B+

Mega Medicham suffers the same speed problem. And I even less bulky overall than Gardevoir. Perfect for B+

Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions

 

[Kyuzeth]

Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions

Does 115 Special Defense seem low to you? 68 HP is shit, but there's no way Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir can be considered specially frail. Besides, Gardevoir isn't all that predictable due to being able to carry Scarf or go a (seldom seen) supportive route as well. I've already explained how Mega Gardevoir can fuck up a lot of its would-be checks and counters in my post, so please take a look at that.

 

[LZH14]

I don't mean to be condescending in any way but lol if your relying on excadrill or aegis to check garchomp, then your up for a bad time.
Garchomp is let me stress this, is often a wallbreaker when using life orb, tank when using the rocky helmet set, wall when using the specially defensive set to beat char y/aegis, and a sweeper when using bulky swords dance. The fact that it is a wallbreaker, tank, wall and sweeper all separated in different sets, of course. Garchomp can't be 100% countered due to it's wallbreaking sets. I can literally do an analysis breakdown for the counters but I don't think anybody in this thread wants to read an essay. There is no faster (somewhat)viable fairy type faster than Chomp other than Scarf Gardevoir. and it only beats offensive sd/wallbreaker-
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Garchomp is in no way easy to revenge kill due to things such as: naturak bulk, bulky sd EV investment, resist berry, etc.

So instead of putting my words in an odd way in which you could easily miss them (which sorry for doing that before, as you have seemed to have missed some of my points before) let me just put a closing statement here and say: Garchomp has less true counters than Zard X, Lando-I, Thundurus-I (really thundy is only here cause of support through twave, all in all it's extremely easy to counter in my experience) Aegislash. And provides immense utility to the team by being a win condition, wallbreaker, wall, tank or scarfer. Garchomp is overall about the best scarfer in OU right now and it is impossible to outclass, and if you do, your already in S rank and cannot fulfill it's other roles. IDK why people are so opposed to Garchomp, it is a top tier pokemon with high versatility, little counters and a way to blast through all of them and has no other pokemon that outclass it. Plus it has an amazing hipster speed tier :]

Scarf Gardevoir uses modest specifically for situations like this. Modest scarf still reaches a 388 speed equivalent. Non-scarf Garchomp is reaching 333 at most. (Scarf also outspeeds max speed Latios by a good margin)
252+ SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 380-450 (106.1 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 380-450 (93.5 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Jukain]

I don't mean to be condescending in any way but lol if your relying on excadrill or aegis to check garchomp, then your up for a bad time.
Garchomp is let me stress this, is often a wallbreaker when using life orb, tank when using the rocky helmet set, wall when using the specially defensive set to beat char y/aegis, and a sweeper when using bulky swords dance. The fact that it is a wallbreaker, tank, wall and sweeper all separated in different sets, of course. Garchomp can't be 100% countered due to it's wallbreaking sets. I can literally do an analysis breakdown for the counters but I don't think anybody in this thread wants to read an essay. There is no faster (somewhat)viable fairy type faster than Chomp other than Scarf Gardevoir. and it only beats offensive sd/wallbreaker-
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Garchomp is in no way easy to revenge kill due to things such as: naturak bulk, bulky sd EV investment, resist berry, etc.

So instead of putting my words in an odd way in which you could easily miss them (which sorry for doing that before, as you have seemed to have missed some of my points before) let me just put a closing statement here and say: Garchomp has less true counters than Zard X, Lando-I, Thundurus-I (really thundy is only here cause of support through twave, all in all it's extremely easy to counter in my experience) Aegislash. And provides immense utility to the team by being a win condition, wallbreaker, wall, tank or scarfer. Garchomp is overall about the best scarfer in OU right now and it is impossible to outclass, and if you do, your already in S rank and cannot fulfill it's other roles. IDK why people are so opposed to Garchomp, it is a top tier pokemon with high versatility, little counters and a way to blast through all of them and has no other pokemon that outclass it. Plus it has an amazing hipster speed tier :]

more like:

- rocky helm sr blast
- sash sr sd
- scarf (w/ blast)
- lo sd

tank variants exist but are /very/ uncommon. the fact that you're bringing up stuff like [berry] + bulky sd is silly.

 

[rachet67]

I don't mean to be condescending in any way but lol if your relying on excadrill or aegis to check garchomp, then your up for a bad time.
Garchomp is let me stress this, is often a wallbreaker when using life orb, tank when using the rocky helmet set, wall when using the specially defensive set to beat char y/aegis, and a sweeper when using bulky swords dance. The fact that it is a wallbreaker, tank, wall and sweeper all separated in different sets, of course. Garchomp can't be 100% countered due to it's wallbreaking sets. I can literally do an analysis breakdown for the counters but I don't think anybody in this thread wants to read an essay. There is no faster (somewhat)viable fairy type faster than Chomp other than Scarf Gardevoir. and it only beats offensive sd/wallbreaker-
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (85.7 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Garchomp is in no way easy to revenge kill due to things such as: naturak bulk, bulky sd EV investment, resist berry, etc.

So instead of putting my words in an odd way in which you could easily miss them (which sorry for doing that before, as you have seemed to have missed some of my points before) let me just put a closing statement here and say: Garchomp has less true counters than Zard X, Lando-I, Thundurus-I (really thundy is only here cause of support through twave, all in all it's extremely easy to counter in my experience) Aegislash. And provides immense utility to the team by being a win condition, wallbreaker, wall, tank or scarfer. Garchomp is overall about the best scarfer in OU right now and it is impossible to outclass, and if you do, your already in S rank and cannot fulfill it's other roles. IDK why people are so opposed to Garchomp, it is a top tier pokemon with high versatility, little counters and a way to blast through all of them and has no other pokemon that outclass it. Plus it has an amazing hipster speed tier :]

Although Garchomp has tons of different sets and does them well, it doesn't preform at a S rank level at any of them, and you're not drastically punished for mistaking one role for an other. Garchomp is far from the best scarfer in the game. Being locked into an unboosted earthquake (Excadrill has mold breaker to help with this) and dragon claw/outrage is pretty bad, and makes scarfchomp extremely prediction reliant. Without an item to boost its atk, its offensive presense can be pretty underwhelming against defensive and bulky offensive teams. Excadril has rapid spin, mold breaker, and a secondary stab without about the same amount of use, which makes it as good, if not slightly better as an offensive scarfer. The tank rocky helmet set is pretty good, but has enough flaws to prevent it from being S-rank, notably its lack of reliable recovery, an easy weakness to exploit, and good, but not absolutely amazing bulk, which makes it easy to wear down. The swords dance set is also pretty good, but is easily revenge killed by Thundurus, Keldeo, Greninja, Latias, Latios, or pretty much any combination of two pokemon that can outspeed it/have priority or by sacking one mon as it sets up, and revenge killing after. Yache berry solves a few of these problems, but it lowers its offensive output and makes it easier to wall. Being revenge killed isn't usually a huge concern for an offensive mon, but as a sweeper and a win condition, thats pretty bad. Its wall breaking sets are generally performed better by Mega-Garchomp who has a much better SpA, especially in sand. Wall breaker Garchomp is honestly not as good at breaking walls as Landorus-I is. Landorus has about the same damage output on the Special side as LO Garchomp has on the physical side, but unlike Garchomp, it has tools to beat nearly all of its defensive counters, with knock off crippling Chansey and Latias and u-turn allowing it to switch to an appropriate pursuit user for Latias. Garchomp's still a pretty awesome pokemon overall, and A+ is fine for it.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Although Garchomp has tons of different sets and does them well, it doesn't preform at a S rank level at any of them, and you're not drastically punished for mistaking one role for an other. Garchomp is far from the best scarfer in the game. Being locked into an unboosted earthquake (Excadrill has mold breaker to help with this) and dragon claw/outrage is pretty bad, and makes scarfchomp extremely prediction reliant. Without an item to boost its atk, its offensive presense can be pretty underwhelming against defensive and bulky offensive teams. Excadril has rapid spin, mold breaker, and a secondary stab without about the same amount of use, which makes it as good, if not slightly better as an offensive scarfer. The tank rocky helmet set is pretty good, but has enough flaws to prevent it from being S-rank, notably its lack of reliable recovery, an easy weakness to exploit, and good, but not absolutely amazing bulk, which makes it easy to wear down. The swords dance set is also pretty good, but is easily revenge killed by Thundurus, Keldeo, Greninja, Latias, Latios, or pretty much any combination of two pokemon that can outspeed it/have priority or by sacking one mon as it sets up, and revenge killing after. Yache berry solves a few of these problems, but it lowers its offensive output and makes it easier to wall. Being revenge killed isn't usually a huge concern for an offensive mon, but as a sweeper and a win condition, thats pretty bad. Its wall breaking sets are generally performed better by Mega-Garchomp who has a much better SpA, especially in sand. Wall breaker Garchomp is honestly not as good at breaking walls as Landorus-I is. Landorus has about the same damage output on the Special side as LO Garchomp has on the physical side, but unlike Garchomp, it has tools to beat nearly all of its defensive counters, with knock off crippling Chansey and Latias and u-turn allowing it to switch to an appropriate pursuit user for Latias. Garchomp's still a pretty awesome pokemon overall, and A+ is fine for it.

technically landorus-I can never beat 252 HP /196 bold latias which I've been experimenting (it's actually not bad at all) with but I get the point.
Also, how is Excadrill a better offensive scarfer? Garchomp can revenge practically any offense threat in the metagame, and has a typing that actually lets it switch into something at least once. Not to mention it can actually beat Jolly Zard X and it can revenge both weakened Lando-I and Lati@s due to scarf. Also let me reply to the pokemon you say as checks and counters:

• Offensive Checks
  • Keldeo-
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 204-242 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 286-337 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  • Thundurus-
    252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 146-174 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • Latios-
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 317-374 (88.5 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  • Greninja-
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 374-439 (104.4 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Ninja is a great offensive check, but it is for pretty much almost every S rank
• Defensive Checks
  • Skarmory-
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Wins against stone edge, loses to Fire Blast just like how KOff/CM Lando> Chansey > non koff Lando
  • Bronzong-
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 173-204 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 78-92 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • Landorus-T-
    +1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 322-379 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 228-268 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • Hippowdon-
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (worn down over time, and sdef/mixed wall loses to chomp outright)
  • Sylveon/Clefable/Togekiss (the fairies)-
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 465-547 (118 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 39-47 (10.4 - 12.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
    +2 252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 454-536 (121.3 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (wins vs fire blast, loses to stone edge)

Now, Before naybody claims I'm making a set with like, 8,000,000 moves, just let me post the set below
Garchomp @ Yache Berry / Haban Berry / Focus Sash (focus sash would be first slash but I don't want to tag user Focus Sash)
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Fire Blast

while you all are great debaters with very good and strong argument and I admit I made some mistakes by mentioning unpopular sets which might make it look like I'm making up unviable sets (try bulky sd chomp pls), I still believe in Chomp for S rank. It's kind of like a physical lando in retrospect, I ask you guys to just try and understand the details and evidence I'm providing and not just the topic sentence I'm jotting down.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I'll just bring this up again since it hasn't been addressed yet. What I believe to be the most underrated mon in the list.

C -> C+/B-/Hell even B : Umbreon is one of the best mixed defenders and is capable of easily taking any non-super effective hit bar Zard Y's Fire Blast. It performs the same cleric role as Sylveon (which is at B) with better bulk, Foul Play instead of Hyper Voice, and inferior typing which could be situationally better depending on the rest of the team. With defensive investment, Umbreon becomes a cleric with the same specially defensive bulk as Sylveon as well as a wall with a defensive bulk just very slightly below that of Mandibuzz (and without the SR weakness) with STAB Foul Play to punish physical attackers. Also has an edge over Sylveon as a status absorber with Synchronize.

Idk, I agree that umbreon is a total beast, it has the same sp bulk as sylvan and way better physical. The problem though is that its a total set up fodder for pokes like clefable. Also, Mandibuzz as a dark type wall is way better with overcoat better physical bulk and support moves like taunt and defog. I'll say umbreon is viable for c/c+ but any more i doubt it could fit the roles for.

 

[Amaan]

Are people really trying to argue Garchomp for S? It's not even one of the better pokes in A+ Pinsir, Zard Y, Bisharp, M tyranitar and M Gyarados are all S tier mons if Garchomp goes to S. Garchomp cannot run all it's sets at once.

Subject 18 Edit: Removed Mega Manectric mentions

Does 115 Special Defense seem low to you? 68 HP is shit, but there's no way Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir can be considered specially frail. Besides, Gardevoir isn't all that predictable due to being able to carry Scarf or go a (seldom seen) supportive route as well. I've already explained how Mega Gardevoir can fuck up a lot of its would-be checks and counters in my post, so please take a look at that.

Sorry, I meant to say physical bulk, which is beyond shit. SpD is above average tho.

 

[theV8man]

I can't see Garchomp go to S rank. There are other Pokemon in A+ rank who could deserve it more. Look at Pinsir. It runs ONE set that can completely destroy unprepared teams. When I make a team I literally have to make sure I have some way of stopping the thing. I've seen lots of Garchomps on enemy teams, but I can't remember a time that I've been swept by one because I basically can always stop it without modifying my team. It's just not as threatening as many of the other A+ pokes.

 

[Ada]

I think Garchomp is in a pretty good place right now. While it can't carry entire teams on its back like some pokemon can *cough*Deoxys-D*cough* it can consistently support its team with residual damage (rough skin and setting up rocks). It's one of the better setters out there that isn't set up bait thanks to its great STABs. Pinsir and CharY have both lost a lot of effectiveness as people were forced to adapt to it so they also deserve A+ rank.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I can't see Garchomp go to S rank. There are other Pokemon in A+ rank who could deserve it more. Look at Pinsir. It runs ONE set that can completely destroy unprepared teams. When I make a team I literally have to make sure I have some way of stopping the thing. I've seen lots of Garchomps on enemy teams, but I can't remember a time that I've been swept by one because I basically can always stop it without modifying my team. It's just not as threatening as many of the other A+ pokes.

"can't remember a time where I've been swept by one" I've never been swept by anything in viability rankings except for a life orb latios because, guess what, I'm an annoying stall player who only loses in close matchups because as a stall player, it's my job to prepare for top threats, does this mean top threats should not be S/A/A+? hell no, just because 1 user has a certain match up against them doesn't support an argument. Garchomp is just as deadly as something like Zard X to unprepared and even prepared teams due to how it can force it's way through even prepared teams by simply alternating between focus sash/yache berry/haban berry OR fire blast / stone edge. And Garchomp CAN carry teams on it's back, but it's usually that Garchomp isn't the one needing support so you usually don't build around it, hey, if people actually built around Garchomp, maybe people would realize how deadly it is, it's unfair to compare how threatening a team built around Zard X and beating it's counters to a team with scarfchomp to patch up a sweepers weak points.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

"can't remember a time where I've been swept by one" I've never been swept by anything in viability rankings except for a life orb latios because, guess what, I'm an annoying stall player who only loses in close matchups because as a stall player, it's my job to prepare for top threats, does this mean top threats should not be S/A/A+? hell no, just because 1 user has a certain match up against them doesn't support an argument. Garchomp is just as deadly as something like Zard X to unprepared and even prepared teams due to how it can force it's way through even prepared teams by simply alternating between focus sash/yache berry/haban berry OR fire blast / stone edge. And Garchomp CAN carry teams on it's back, but it's usually that Garchomp isn't the one needing support so you usually don't build around it, hey, if people actually built around Garchomp, maybe people would realize how deadly it is, it's unfair to compare how threatening a team built around Zard X and beating it's counters to a team with scarfchomp to patch up a sweepers weak points.

I don't get how garchomp is a better swords dance than something like pinsir which has a priority move and can 2hko basically everything with adamant at +2. Here are some calcs.

+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.7 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 348-411 (82.8 - 97.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 256-302 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 283-333 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Garchomp stuff:

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

If you don't like the evs they were the usage so yeah, also considering that mega pinsir is A+ (I'm perfectly fine with this) i don't see why garchomp shouldn't be A+ as well.

 

[theV8man]

"can't remember a time where I've been swept by one" I've never been swept by anything in viability rankings except for a life orb latios because, guess what, I'm an annoying stall player who only loses in close matchups because as a stall player, it's my job to prepare for top threats, does this mean top threats should not be S/A/A+? hell no, just because 1 user has a certain match up against them doesn't support an argument. Garchomp is just as deadly as something like Zard X to unprepared and even prepared teams due to how it can force it's way through even prepared teams by simply alternating between focus sash/yache berry/haban berry OR fire blast / stone edge. And Garchomp CAN carry teams on it's back, but it's usually that Garchomp isn't the one needing support so you usually don't build around it, hey, if people actually built around Garchomp, maybe people would realize how deadly it is, it's unfair to compare how threatening a team built around Zard X and beating it's counters to a team with scarfchomp to patch up a sweepers weak points.

Charizard X is much more deadly because it boosts it's speed, has more coverage, and is simply more powerful. It fits the definition of an S rank mon perfectly, unlike Garchomp who is outshined even by other A+ Pokemon...

 

[Rosen]

Some dude in Victory Road suggested Lando move down from S

How about no

 

[Salt]

Some dude in Victory Road suggested Lando move down from S

How about no

Uh, elaborate? imo, I agree with him because I never really understood why he was moved up to S in the first place. Sure, he's an excellent wallbreaker but like Charizard Y and Kyurem B, he has enough flaws and existing answers that hold him back. I've never actually been that impressed with Lando-I personally because I always find his coverage to be very strange, and there are a lot of moves that he wants but can't always have.

 

[Rhaegar]

Some dude in Victory Road suggested Lando move down from S

How about no

+1. But, he also suggested Deoxys-D move down from S which I was about to suggest myself.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Charizard X is much more deadly because it boosts it's speed, has more coverage, and is simply more powerful. It fits the definition of an S rank mon perfectly, unlike Garchomp who is outshined even by other A+ Pokemon...

"outshined by every other A+ pokemon" ok yeah I'm done you guys can keep discussing but all the good argument-ees have clearly left or went to sleep/are not on smogon rn

 

[Rhaegar]

Uh, elaborate? imo, I agree with him because I never really understood why he was moved up to S in the first place. Sure, he's an excellent wallbreaker but like Charizard Y and Kyurem B, he has enough flaws and existing counters that hold him back. I've never actually been that impressed with Lando-I personally because I always find his coverage to be very strange, and there are a lot of moves that he wants but can't always have.

Why he's better than Char Y, just off the top of my head,

• Better coverage
• Set versatality
• Not x4 weak to Stealth Rock
• Destroys stall and beats Chansey with either Knock Off + Focus Blast or CM + Focus Blast
• Can lead against Deo-D and KO it with Knock Off + Earth Power, making one Stealth Rock in exchange for a 6v5
• 101 speed
• Doesn't take up mega slot

He's in a different league from Cube.

 

[theV8man]

"outshined by every other A+ pokemon" ok yeah I'm done you guys can keep discussing but all the good argument-ees have clearly left or went to sleep/are not on smogon rn

Dude... I said "outshined even by other A+ Pokemon" not "outshined by every A+ Pokemon" -.-

EDIT: Garchomp is a great OU Pokemon, one of the best. I'm not trying to say it's bad I'm just saying that it shouldn't deserve S rank.

 

[Baharoth]

Well I always was against moving Deoxys-D to S rank so I whole heartly agree with dropping it. About Lando-I, imo its more or less the same level as Charizard-Y. Not so weak against SR but less bulk and far easier to switch into and considering that Charizard was moved down I dont realy think it should be in S so either bring Zard Y back where it belongs or drop Lando-I down, both ways would be fine for me.

Regarding Garchomp, we realy have enough stuff in S rank right now that doesnt belong there, there is no need to make that list even longer. Garchomp is good but not S rank good and actually claiming its as threatening as Zard X must be some kind of bad joke. Garchomp has a bit more power after one SD but he cant boost his speed, his offensive coverage is worse, he can get burned and his typing is worse defensively.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Adamant Zard X auto loses to any team with scarf exca, lando-t or (jolly too) chomp while jolly loses to any team with Quagsire. Zard X is an amazing pokemon, and it works differently from Garchomp, so does MPinsir, I'm just saying, they both have equal potential to fuck up your team. "can't boost speed" is a very crappy argument that shows you have very little knowledge on how Garchomp works, Garchomp is faster than Lando-I which is a extremely important benchmark. Skarm and Togekiss are as Azumarill and Heatran, if it choses 1 coverage it wins vs 1 and loses to another. Also, Ground/Dragon coverage is equally good in terms of resistances as Fire/Dragon. Also, Garchomp outspeeds and kills pretty much every burn spreader barring Stallbreaker Talonflame, which dies to it regardless. Garchomp also has better mixed defenses than Zard X, letting it take advantage of the fact that it has a neat NOT WEAK TO EQ defensive typing.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 193-228 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 338-398 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
etc

 

[Rotosect]

I agree that Landorus-I and Deoxys-D should go back to A+ rank and I'll reitarate my previous statement on the subject: if a pokemon can't realistically hold the S-rank position in the long term please do not move it there.

Pokemon like Aegislash, who can thrive in OU despite metagame shifts, no matter how much the opponent prepares for it, deserves its S-rank.
Pokemon like Landorus-I, who can be put in its place with the simple addition of highly viable OU pokemon such as Mamoswine, Azumarill or Greninja, shouldn't be there.

 

[theV8man]

Adamant Zard X auto loses to any team with scarf exca, lando-t or (jolly too) chomp while jolly loses to any team with Quagsire. Zard X is an amazing pokemon, and it works differently from Garchomp, so does MPinsir, I'm just saying, they both have equal potential to fuck up your team. "can't boost speed" is a very crappy argument that shows you have very little knowledge on how Garchomp works, Garchomp is faster than Lando-I which is a extremely important benchmark. Skarm and Togekiss are as Azumarill and Heatran, if it choses 1 coverage it wins vs 1 and loses to another. Also, Ground/Dragon coverage is equally good in terms of resistances as Fire/Dragon. Also, Garchomp outspeeds and kills pretty much every burn spreader barring Stallbreaker Talonflame, which dies to it regardless. Garchomp also has better mixed defenses than Zard X, letting it take advantage of the fact that it has a neat NOT WEAK TO EQ defensive typing.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 193-228 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 338-398 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
etc

Boosting speed is in fact a good argument because Zard X won't have to worry about getting smacked with a Draco Meteor from Latios, Ice Beam from Greninja (both of which are seen on many teams), and more. Pinsir also doesn't have this worry because quick attack. Also, how are you about to say that Zard X "auto loses" to any team with a scarfer? It doesn't work like that for any Pokemon because teammates.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I agree that Landorus-I and Deoxys-D should go back to A+ rank and I'll reitarate my previous statement on the subject: if a pokemon can't realistically hold the S-rank position in the long term please do not move it there.

Pokemon like Aegislash, who can thrive in OU despite metagame shifts, no matter how much the opponent prepares for it, deserves its S-rank.
Pokemon like Landorus-I, who can be put in its place with the simple addition of highly viable OU pokemon such as Mamoswine, Azumarill or Greninja, shouldn't be there.

Well, the only ones who can do that are Aegislash and Charizard X, and I have my doubts on the second one. Xzard's presence on S was saved by the invention of the bulky and WoW sets, otherwise it would be A+ along with Gyarados and Tyranitar. Aegislash on the other hand is a one-million-set wall/sweeper/wallbreaker/pivot/anti-lead, who is nearly impossible to counter and can fit literally any team archetype and become the MVP right away while requiring next to no support. I think your definition is kind of strict, it should just reflect what is happening in the metagame right now.

Or then just give your definition to S+ rank mon, and put Aegislash there.