Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Rotosect]

A couple of things wrong with this.

First, a pokemon's BST doesn't determine it's status, otherwise Breloom in BW would be NU and Regigigas would be Ubers.

Second, a pokemon's Tiering last gen has zero standing on its Tiering this gen. Gastrodon was NU in gen4 and OU in gen 5.

Third, you might be underestimating just how powerful that fairy addition is. Azumarill getting it was enough to bump it up to OU, as it gave it secondary STAB and, more importantly in relation to Clefable, more resistances. Clefable's only weakness got turned into a resistance in exchange for two relatively uncommon weaknesses, making it the best unaware user IMO.


Aegislash exists, pretty much. Being weak to dark and ghost really hamper Jirachi now.

Using single, extreme examples (seriously stop using the "Regigigas proves BST doesn't mean anything" argument because we're not idiots and we all know what's the deal about it) to support your counter-argument isn't a good idea.
If you take a look at the average BST, you will clearly see that it gets higher as you move up in tiers, so there is an obvious correlation bewteen BST and tier placement, just like there is a correlation between tier placement and viability. I know correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, but we all can put two and two together and see how competitive Pokemon works in the big picture.

Been said that, the problem with Clefable is that it just can't stand up against powerful neutral hits, which are everywhere in the tier.
Charizard, Keldeo, Aegislash, Landorus and many other offensive threats can comfortably 2HKO it even with neutral hits so Clefable has a hard time switching and setting up.
Also "best Unaware user" doesn't mean much when its competition is Quagsire, Bibarel and Swoobat.
It's a solid pokemon but A+ is too much for it.

 

[Zibbity]

I agree with Rotosect wholeheartedly.

Plus, priority has become a lot more common meaning Jirachi gets outsped and RKd. Plus gaining 2 weaknesses isn't good. Jirachi is just outclassed as a offensive Steel type by Aegislash. The same has happened to Metagross. They're bit as good thanks to the Steel Nerf and Dark/Ghost types on most teams.

It happens so the steel nerf affects Aegislash too. It and Jirachi and Metagross are vulnerable to being destroyed by Sucker Punch.

I'd question Aegislash's S ranking for one reason: its dependence on King's Shield. The major of Aegislashes know this move. It has no protection from burns or being taunted. Aegi's reliance King's Shield makes switching out easier. Any hyper offensive Pokemon fighting Aegislash can simply set up a substitute or power up when Aeg goes into defense mode.

 

[QuickBH]

Electric types immunity to paralysis also hurt Jirachi a little bit too since Rotom-W now hard counters Jirachi as well as making Thundurus-I and Manectric sometimes even free switch-ins.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

imo, it's pretty ridiculous when you see how different the two threads are and how neglected they've become, especially since it's just the lower ranks. I know I'm no expert on this, but I feel like we should reevaluate (again) what makes a Pokemon viable enough to be on these rankings. Just my two (okay a lot more than two) cents here.

It's also interesting to note that the VR thread has max 2 posts a week, so no actual discussion happens there (or in any of the VR threads for that matter, that section is dead). The ranking discussion is happening here. So either Gary is looking at this thread for inputs, or he is just ranking everything by himself. I do believe it's the first one, but I'd like to see this thread given more attention since we are the ones doing most of the work.

I agree with Rotosect wholeheartedly.



It happens so the steel nerf affects Aegislash too. It and Jirachi and Metagross are vulnerable to being destroyed by Sucker Punch.

I'd question Aegislash's S ranking for one reason: its dependence on King's Shield. The major of Aegislashes know this move. It has no protection from burns or being taunted. Aegi's reliance King's Shield makes switching out easier. Any hyper offensive Pokemon fighting Aegislash can simply set up a substitute or power up when Aeg goes into defense mode.

Assuming you can predict the King's Shield. Otherwise you are taking a Shadow Ball to the face and losing 70%+ of your HP, because almost nothing in the tier resists it. And your burn or taunt won't prevent it from using its strongest move.

I've had many cocky Tyranitars switch into my Aegislash and then try to set rocks on it, thinking I was going to use KS or switch out. Then BAM, Iron Head, your dinosaur is dead.

And Azumarills who switched in, thinking they would get a free turn to use Belly Drum.

It's also great to troll BP teams because they just assume I'll keep using KS every two turns, then I use Shadow Ball three turns in a row and then take them down with Shadow Sneak.

The fact that Aegislash can instantly deal ridiculous damage against anything not called Mandibuzz or Bisharp (and beware of Flash Cannon or Sacred Sword) is what makes it so dangerous. It can put pretty much everything under mind games. Will you use the KS turn to use a support move or switch? But... are you sure it will use KS? And what if you attack and it uses it?

King's Shield is great, but don't be a fool and use it every two turns. Wait until the moment your opponent is not expecting it.

 

[Hclegend]

It happens so the steel nerf affects Aegislash too. It and Jirachi and Metagross are vulnerable to being destroyed by Sucker Punch.

I'd question Aegislash's S ranking for one reason: its dependence on King's Shield. The major of Aegislashes know this move. It has no protection from burns or being taunted. Aegi's reliance King's Shield makes switching out easier. Any hyper offensive Pokemon fighting Aegislash can simply set up a substitute or power up when Aeg goes into defense mode.

"Oh no, I know it has KS it's so predictable 0/5"
By that logic Talonflame is bad because nearly every one carries Brave Bird
Since when does knowing ONE MOVE ruin a Pokemon? No, it doesn't protect against status. No it doesn't block WoW. it's called BALANCE
FFS it can HALF YOUR ATTACK IN ONE TURN. IT DOESN'T NEED TO BLOCK STATUS
Aegislash didn't EXIST before the Steel nerf, but of course it affects it. (otherwise it would be OP as fuck)
And Aegi is S because of it's many potential sets, is it Crumbler or Stance Dance? Does it have Shadow Sneak or Shadow Ball?
And don't forget it's base 150/150 offences which are NOT to be underestimated AT ALL. And the whole Sub argument.... No
Most HO Pokemon don't have room for Substitute because of I don't know, a little thing called coverage. And thanks to Aegis previously mentioned offence, it'll just smash right through any subs anyway. So yeah I think it belongs in S.
Edit: (So I don't clog the thread up)

When you get higher up the ladder and in tournaments, stance dance aegis is almost nonexistent because its so bad, so we can safely assume its almost never stance dance aegis.

It was an example. First thing that came to my head after Crumbler.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

"Oh no, I know it has KS it's so predictable 0/5"
By that logic Talonflame is bad because nearly every one carries Brave Bird
Since when does knowing ONE MOVE ruin a Pokemon? No, it doesn't protect against status. No it doesn't block WoW. it's called BALANCE
FFS it can HALF YOUR ATTACK IN ONE TURN. IT DOESN'T NEED TO BLOCK STATUS
Aegislash didn't EXIST before the Steel nerf, but of course it affects it. (otherwise it would be OP as fuck)
And Aegi is S because of it's many potential sets, is it Crumbler or Stance Dance? Does it have Shadow Sneak or Shadow Ball?
And don't forget it's base 150/150 offences which are NOT to be underestimated AT ALL. And the whole Sub argument.... No
Most HO Pokemon don't have room for Substitute because of I don't know, a little thing called coverage. And thanks to Aegis previously mentioned offence, it'll just smash right through any subs anyway. So yeah I think it belongs in S.

When you get higher up the ladder and in tournaments, stance dance aegis is almost nonexistent because its so bad, so we can safely assume its almost never stance dance aegis.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

When you get higher up the ladder and in tournaments, stance dance aegis is almost nonexistent because its so bad, so we can safely assume its almost never stance dance aegis.

Sure. No Stance Dance.

That still leaves Crumbler, Bulky Mixed Attacker, Swords Dance+3 Attacks, Autotomize, SubToxic, and whatever other set may or be not invented in the future because Aegislash is just that flexible.

And don't forget the coverage move. Is it Iron Head, Flash Cannon or Sacred Sword? The answer defines what can or can't switch into it.

 

[TFL]

Using single, extreme examples (seriously stop using the "Regigigas proves BST doesn't mean anything" argument because we're not idiots and we all know what's the deal about it) to support your counter-argument isn't a good idea.
If you take a look at the average BST, you will clearly see that it gets higher as you move up in tiers, so there is an obvious correlation bewteen BST and tier placement, just like there is a correlation between tier placement and viability. I know correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, but we all can put two and two together and see how competitive Pokemon works in the big picture.

Been said that, the problem with Clefable is that it just can't stand up against powerful neutral hits, which are everywhere in the tier.
Charizard, Keldeo, Aegislash, Landorus and many other offensive threats can comfortably 2HKO it even with neutral hits so Clefable has a hard time switching and setting up.
Also "best Unaware user" doesn't mean much when its competition is Quagsire, Bibarel and Swoobat.
It's a solid pokemon but A+ is too much for it.

Nothing short of titanic Special bulk can stand up to those attacks. Remember, Mega Venusaur had its stint in S rank and even it is 2HKOed by them. You have tunnel vision, only focusing on what Clefable can't do instead of what it can.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Celebi should drop to C, or even D. It just can't hold up in a meta dominated by Bisharp, Charizard, Aegislash, etc.

 

[theV8man]

Move Garchomp from A+ to S

Garchomp fits the brief of a Pokemon that can thrive in any metagame, thus a reasons to make it S Rank.
Scarf Garchomp is the best at what it does Revenge Killing; and requires little to no support to make it work.
Natural bulk. Garchomp has 105 HP / 95 Def / 85 Sp.Def. Garchomp's Natural Bulk is enough for it to be able to survive any Ice Shard bar Mamoswines.
102 Speed is Phenomenal. Without Choice Scarf, Garchomp outspeeds the myriad of Base 100's and Landorus-I making it useful with so many base 100's running around. With Choice Scarf, Garchomp outspeeds Scarf Base 100's, Latios and Latias (Important), and the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the metagame (Aerodactyl-Mega and Alakazam-Mega and Deoxys-S)
In retrospect the current S Rank includes Deoxys-D and Landorus two Pokemon who are less offensive pressure and in some cases less Speed than Garchomp and that is why I'm offering this suggestion.

Talonflame and Deoxys-S both revenge kill better than ScarfChomp. Landorus provides a lot more offensive pressure because it's nearly impossible to wall, unlike Garchomp, and Deoxys-D has practically shifted the entire metagame. Garchomp has a great speed tier, great offensive presence, and several viable sets, but I don't think its as good as the S ranks. After all, IMO, there are several A+ rank Pokemon that are better than Garchomp.

 

[Lazybeef]

Clefable as an A+ Pokemon is absurd. Keldeo is an A Pokemon at best.

Clefable is of the most versatile pokemon in the game. Its physically defensive unaware set stops most setup sweepers cold, while the bulky CM sweeper sets with magic guard can sweep entire teams with little concern as soon as its checks are weakened. It is a solid win condition for almost any team. It can support its team with wish support, cleric support, stealth rocks and even healing wish. It is a dick to fighting and dragon types.

MG Clefable is quite bulky and not 2hkoed easily at all with defensive investment. If you cannot 2hko it (and sometimes even if you can), you lose. You can't wear it down, making it a huge pain for stall teams. It sets up all over the popular sub-toxic Aegislash, while laughing in the face of pretty much any stall pokemon, reliably securing the win with calm mind.

Clefable is one of the most influential pokemon in OU, Keep A+ rank.

Keldeo is one of the absolute best attackers in the tier. You bring up its measly attack stat, but attack is useless for keldeo as it will only use it's special attack stat. It has a small movepool, but it has all it needs to be a top tier threat.

Keldeo is not worse than greninja. Keldeo is more powerful and can break through chansey (Which is huge).

Keldeo is a staple on offensive teams and a huge force and while not quite S-rank (even though moving keldeo to S-rank have been suggested) it is one of the pokemon that make offense so good. It pairs excellently with other offensive forces like Landorus-I and Bisharp. Keep A+.

 

[Durant]

Nominating normal Gardevoir for D / unranked

While Mega Gardevoir is a pretty good Pokemon right now the same can't be said for it's non mega form.
So first of all normal Gardevoir has 2 sets: Defensive and Choice Scarf.
Defensive Gardevoir is a pretty bad set. The main reason it's used is because of it's 4x resistance to Fighting type attacks. However it can't switch in on any fighting type at all as it fears getting 2 hit KO'd:
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 153-181 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( only has a small chance to survive 2 Stone Edge's and has to rely on Stone Edge missing to get of a burn )

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 441-522 (129.7 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock ( Flat out OHKOd, Gardevoir does outspeed but can't switch in at all )

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 150-180 (44.1 - 52.9%) -- approx. 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Even with minimum hits Gardevoir is 2 hit KOd most of the time and while Gardevoir has higher base speed defensive sets don't run speed EVs )

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 178-210 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Gardevoir can survive but will be a such a low hp after that it is easily revenge killed. Gardevoir can't burn Conkeldurr because of guts and Moonblast is a 2 hit KO)

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 114-135 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( While it is only a 3 hit KO Infernape wins because Moonblast is only a 2 hit KO and Gardevoir has to switch in on Infernape )

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 174-205 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Keldeo wins )

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 147-174 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( 2 Acrobatics have a relatively high chance to kill while Sky Attack + Acrobatics always kills )

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 141-166 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Ok Gardevoir wins but it will be at way too low hp to do anything for the rest of the match )

252+ Atk Toxicroak Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 236-278 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Toxicroak is uncommon but Gardevoir still loses to it )

These are the most common Fighting types in the metagame right now ( Did not count Cobalion, Virizion and Mienshou because they are not common in OU ) and Gardevoir can only win against a few of them and even then it will be serverely crippled for the rest of the game because it is as such low HP. You can try to Wish up to full HP then but you probably won't be able to switch into any attack at all. Also there is another type Gardevoir is supposed to counter: Dragon types. However like with Fighting types it isn't very good against them:
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 115-136 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( While Gardevoir can take Dragonite's unboosted hits without too many problems Moonblast is only a 3 hit KO. Lum berry Dragonite can set up on Gardevoir when it tries to Will O Wisp. Still Gardevoir has a fairly good chance against Dragonite )

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 270-318 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ( Flare Blitz can OHKO while Charizard always outspeeds defensive Gardevoir )

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 185-218 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( While Choice Band Garchomp is not the most common Garchomp Gardevoir can't really switch in because it can be 2 hit KO'd )

252+ SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir in Rain: 213-252 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Kingdra is only used on Rain Dance teams and 2 hit KO's Gardevoir with Surf and Hydro Pump )

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 207-244 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Again Gardevoir can't switch in on this Pokemon )

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 222-262 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Kyurem Black 2 hit KO's Gardevoir. If Kyurem Black is not running Iron Head Fusion Bolt has a chance to 2 hit KO but will have a bit more problems )

252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 104-123 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Goodra doesn't care about the burn and thanks to it's great special defense Moonblast only has a chance to 3 hit KO. Gardevoir can PP stall it however with Wish + Protect stalling )

252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 54-65 (15.8 - 19.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( While gardevoir can easily take hits from Latias it loses to Substitute / Roost + Calm Mind Latias eventually )

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 109-129 (32 - 37.9%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( This is one of the few Dragon type Gardevoir can beat whether it is though Wish + Protect stalling or killing it with Moonblast )

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 198-234 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Every Haxorus has Poison Jab and even if something goes wrong Haxorus usually also has Lum Berry to heal of burns )

252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 170-200 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( Earthquake 2 hit KO's after Stealth Rock )

252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 150-178 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( If Earthquake misses out on the 2 hit KO Zygarde can risk a burn but it kills most of the time )

220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 141-166 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery ( gardevoir can win but only through Wish + Protect stalling or 2 hit KO'ing with Moonblast )

Again given how Gardevoir is supposed to counter Dragon types seeing how most of the Dragons can defeat Gardevoir can defeat it's purpose. Gardevoir also has to rely on Wish + Protect for recovery which can be unreliable and sometime be setup fodder for Pokemon that predict the Protect. While Will O Wisp is nice Gardevoir has to switch into Pokemon and will either get forced into Wish + Protect stalling or has to try to get of damage while sacrificing itself. Gardevoir also has a 4MSS as it needs Wish + Protect for recovery, Moonblast to not be setup fodder, Will O Wisp to help it's awful defense ( Which mind you, base 68 / 65 physical defensive stats is awful for something that is supposed to wall stuff ). It also really appreciates having Encore and Taunt to prevent setup sweeping and Toxic to poison walls. However fitting those into one moveset is difficult which is a problem. More Pokemon like Hippowdon also have this problem but those are better Pokemon in general. In short defensive Gardevoir can't wall stuff it is supposed to wall like and it also faces heacy competition form the likes of Clefable and Sylveon.

However there is also the Choice Scarf set. While Choice Scarf Gardevoir sounds good in theory to patch up it's terrible speed stat it isn't as good as people think it is. For starters if you run Timid you are pretty weak. While base 125 special attack is pretty good it fails when there is no nature or even item to boost it. Quite a few times Gardevoir finds itself missing out on a KO it should have had like on Dragonite. Meanwhile if it runs the inferior Modest it barely fails to outspeed +1 Charizard X, Dragonite and Gyarados which are 3 great Pokemon you should be prepared for. While Gardevoir has some other useful moves like Healing Wish, Destiny Bond, Memento and Trick, all of those require you to kill of Gardevoir which basically leaves you 5 - 5 which doesn't always help. Sometimes the trade off for sacrificing Gardevoir can be nice it usually is inferior to a Pokemon that doesn't need to die to do something on the battlefield. Gardevoir also has to compete with Alakazam and other Choice Scarf users and it has very little over them. STAB Moonblast is alright but Fairy isn't the best ofensive type and Psychic STAB has competition with Alakazam and Choice Scarf users like Latios.

Gardevoir has very few niches over other Pokemon and usually ends up being a waste of a teamslot that could have been sued for other Pokemon.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Clefable as an A+ Pokemon is absurd. It's base stats 95/70/73/95/90/60 are underwhelming for a top tier OU threat. You have to invest EV's in defenses else it's too frail. There are few attacks Clefable can switch into. Certain Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Diggersby can OHKO it (without defenses boosts). It is taunt bait. It is slow. It's attacks are weak without sacrific. It was an RU mon last generation and the fact it's typing is now Fairy does not make it that much more OP. Move down to A- at best.

You don't quite understand how awesome Fairy typing is.

Using single, extreme examples (seriously stop using the "Regigigas proves BST doesn't mean anything" argument because we're not idiots and we all know what's the deal about it) to support your counter-argument isn't a good idea.
If you take a look at the average BST, you will clearly see that it gets higher as you move up in tiers, so there is an obvious correlation bewteen BST and tier placement, just like there is a correlation between tier placement and viability. I know correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, but we all can put two and two together and see how competitive Pokemon works in the big picture.

When the entire argument for moving something down is "its BST is low" then it's fine to point out exceptions to the general trend of higher BST = higher tier. Regigigas is just an extreme example, but there's still Breloom and the fact that half of the psuedos are in UU/BL, as well as all the 600 BST legendaries. BST is only a rough indication of how good something is, there's quite a lot else about how good something is like movepool, ability, typing, stat distribution, and just how accepting the meta is of those traits. Clefable is good on all counts, with a ridiculous movepool, two stellar abilities, Fairy typing, good stat distro (considering its BST, yes,) and is very good in the meta. A- is an absolute joke.

 

[Durant]

You don't quite understand how awesome Fairy typing is.



When the entire argument for moving something down is "its BST is low" then it's fine to point out exceptions to the general trend of higher BST = higher tier. Regigigas is just an extreme example, but there's still Breloom and the fact that half of the psuedos are in UU/BL, as well as all the 600 BST legendaries. BST is only a rough indication of how good something is, there's quite a lot else about how good something is like movepool, ability, typing, stat distribution, and just how accepting the meta is of those traits. Clefable is good on all counts, with a ridiculous movepool, two stellar abilities, Fairy typing, good stat distro (considering its BST, yes,) and is very good in the meta. A- is an absolute joke.

It isn't the problem that it's base stat total is too low, the problem is that without a boost or investment in a stat, Clefable is kind of weak. It needs to use Calm Mind to actually become threatening because without it, it's stats just don't cut it. Unlike Breloom Clefable has balanced stats all around instead of one good stat one other bad stats. Clefable's stats just aren't high enough without boosts or heavy EV investment which is the problem with Clefable. Also don't mention Regigigas we all know the reason he isn't Uber is because Trollfreak Slow Start.

 

[Lazybeef]

It isn't the problem that it's base stat total is too low, the problem is that without a boost or investment in a stat, Clefable is kind of weak. It needs to use Calm Mind to actually become threatening because without it, it's stats just don't cut it. Unlike Breloom Clefable has balanced stats all around instead of one good stat one other bad stats. Clefable's stats just aren't high enough without boosts or heavy EV investment which is the problem with Clefable. Also don't mention Regigigas we all know the reason he isn't Uber is because Trollfreak Slow Start.

Ok but clefable doesn't have any issues with setting up a few calm minds, so what is the problem?

 

[Durant]

Ok but clefable doesn't have any issues with setting up a few calm minds, so what is the problem?

I didn't say Clefable had issues with getting up Calm Minds. I support Clefable to A+ or even S rank by the way because it is just so damn versatile.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

on the clefable discussion there are 4 elements that make a pokemon

• stats
• type
• movepool
• abilities

clefable's type is phenomenal, clefable's movepool is phenomenal, clefable has TWO phenomenal abilities. the relatively low stats are basically the only reason clefable isn't s

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Nominating normal Gardevoir for D / unranked

Again given how Gardevoir is supposed to counter Dragon types seeing how most of the Dragons can defeat Gardevoir can defeat it's purpose. Gardevoir also has to rely on Wish + Protect for recovery which can be unreliable and sometime be setup fodder for Pokemon that predict the Protect. While Will O Wisp is nice Gardevoir has to switch into Pokemon and will either get forced into Wish + Protect stalling or has to try to get of damage while sacrificing itself. Gardevoir also has a 4MSS as it needs Wish + Protect for recovery, Moonblast to not be setup fodder, Will O Wisp to help it's awful defense ( Which mind you, base 68 / 65 physical defensive stats is awful for something that is supposed to wall stuff ). It also really appreciates having Encore and Taunt to prevent setup sweeping and Toxic to poison walls. However fitting those into one moveset is difficult which is a problem. More Pokemon like Hippowdon also have this problem but those are better Pokemon in general. In short defensive Gardevoir can't wall stuff it is supposed to wall like and it also faces heacy competition form the likes of Clefable and Sylveon.

However there is also the Choice Scarf set. While Choice Scarf Gardevoir sounds good in theory to patch up it's terrible speed stat it isn't as good as people think it is. For starters if you run Timid you are pretty weak. While base 125 special attack is pretty good it fails when there is no nature or even item to boost it. Quite a few times Gardevoir finds itself missing out on a KO it should have had like on Dragonite. Meanwhile if it runs the inferior Modest it barely fails to outspeed +1 Charizard X, Dragonite and Gyarados which are 3 great Pokemon you should be prepared for. While Gardevoir has some other useful moves like Healing Wish, Destiny Bond, Memento and Trick, all of those require you to kill of Gardevoir which basically leaves you 5 - 5 which doesn't always help. Sometimes the trade off for sacrificing Gardevoir can be nice it usually is inferior to a Pokemon that doesn't need to die to do something on the battlefield. Gardevoir also has to compete with Alakazam and other Choice Scarf users and it has very little over them. STAB Moonblast is alright but Fairy isn't the best ofensive type and Psychic STAB has competition with Alakazam and Choice Scarf users like Latios.

Gardevoir has very few niches over other Pokemon and usually ends up being a waste of a teamslot that could have been sued for other Pokemon.

Defensive Garde isn't a thing people use, and is not why it's ranked. Your massive wall of calcs is meaningless because you're criticizing something that doesn't really exist.

Scarfedevoir doesn't RK everything but do focus on what it can do. Trace is the reason why it's any good (I mean it's not that good, which is why it's C, but it's still pretty good.) It lets RK Kingdra and Kabutops in Rain, as is traces Swift Swim, and it can RK Sand Rush Excadrill. It can Trace stuff like Sheer Force to get some extra power, Regenerator to heal itself, Multiscale to let it take a hit, etc. And anything it can't KO it can attempt to bring down with Destiny Bond.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I'm curious as to whether or not a subdivision of S-Rank has been considered yet. If it has, I'd like to see the posts regarding that.

That said, a subdivision of the highest rank does sound interesting, looking at some of the previous posts: the most absolutely consistent Pokémon in the tier, such as Aegislash and Mega Charizard X, would be S+ as a matter of illustration.
I recall BW RU having a subdivided S-Rank and it made things a lot clearer (I know this is a different tier in a different generation, but my point stands), comparing Aegislash in XY OU to BW RU Druddigon/Slowking in terms of consistency and influence they had in their respective tiers.

Now, on to some nominations:

Dragonite (A) -> A-: Coming back on a previously discussed Pokémon, I feel Dragonite is kind of overrated. It's a very solid and versatile Pokémon, I'm aware, but it simply doesn't perform as effectively as Mega Charizard X, who has two usable STABs, both of which are really spammable. Its ability to attain and maintain bulk by virtue of defensive investment and Will-O-Wisp is another reason why Mega Charizard X outclasses Dragonite. The first dragon still has some things going for it, such as working as a bulky DDer on teams that already have a Mega Pokémon or on balanced teams, being able to work quite well with Weakness Policy, as well as being able to spread paralysis with Thunder Wave and Dragon Tail/Roar, but I just feel Dragonite no longer cuts it this Generation. Dragonite for A-.

Mega Banette (C) -> C-/D: I'm curious. What else does the doll have to offer over Sableye aside from the failsafe Destiny Bond? Sure, it's a good niche, but it's its only worthwhile niche. Mega Banette really suffers from awkward stat distribution, lacks recovery and Prankster doesn't even activate on the first turn. Sableye can stall things with Prankster Recover, cripple physical attackers with Wisp and has a smaller opportunity cost than Mega Banette, who has a huge one by comparison as it's outperformed by a non-Mega. I just don't see why Mega Banette is effective in OU. Mega Banette for C-/D.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Bst is an awful argument. Look at breloom, skarmory, bisharp, azumarill, and crawdaunt, who don't even break 500 BST. And then we have the Regis and articuno, who have 580 BST and are complete garbage

 

[Karxrida]

Bst is an awful argument. Look at breloom, skarmory, bisharp, azumarill, and crawdaunt, who don't even break 500 BST. And then we have the Regis and articuno, who have 580 BST and are complete garbage

And Kyurem-B, who has one of the highest non-Mega BSTs in the game and isn't Uber.

 

[Durant]

Defensive Garde isn't a thing people use, and is not why it's ranked. Your massive wall of calcs is meaningless because you're criticizing something that doesn't really exist.

Scarfedevoir doesn't RK everything but do focus on what it can do. Trace is the reason why it's any good (I mean it's not that good, which is why it's C, but it's still pretty good.) It lets RK Kingdra and Kabutops in Rain, as is traces Swift Swim, and it can RK Sand Rush Excadrill. It can Trace stuff like Sheer Force to get some extra power, Regenerator to heal itself, Multiscale to let it take a hit, etc. And anything it can't KO it can attempt to bring down with Destiny Bond.

It still has to compete with Mega Alakazam as a trace user. While Gardevoir doesn't take up a mega slot and has Fairy STAB that is about all the things it does better than Mega Alakazam. Mega Alakazam doesn't need the Choice Scarf like Gardevoir because of it's already sky high speed. Also Mega Alakazam hits alot harder with it's higher special attack stat that even rivals Deoxys Attack forme.

252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see Mega Alakazam outdamages Gardevoir quite a bit and while Gardevoir has a few gimmicky options like Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick and Healing Wish, Mega Alakazam is better in almsot every single way. Seeing as how Mega Alakazam is in B- ( even though I think B is better for it ) Gardevoir is a niche version of Mega Alakazam which is by itself already a bit niche I think D or unranked is better for it.

 

[LZH14]

Nominating normal Gardevoir for D / unranked

-The Great Wall of China Text

I'm really not quite sure why you're using a Gardevoir to EVER tank physical hits. Physically Defensive/Tank Gardevoir was never a thing. It's meant for one thing only, scarfed fairy moves for RKing.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

It still has to compete with Mega Alakazam as a trace user. While Gardevoir doesn't take up a mega slot and has Fairy STAB that is about all the things it does better than Mega Alakazam. Mega Alakazam doesn't need the Choice Scarf like Gardevoir because of it's already sky high speed. Also Mega Alakazam hits alot harder with it's higher special attack stat that even rivals Deoxys Attack forme.

252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see Mega Alakazam outdamages Gardevoir quite a bit and while Gardevoir has a few gimmicky options like Destiny Bond, Memento, Trick and Healing Wish, Mega Alakazam is better in almsot every single way. Seeing as how Mega Alakazam is in B- ( even though I think B is better for it ) Gardevoir is a niche version of Mega Alakazam which is by itself already a bit niche I think D or unranked is better for it.

gardevoir is very outclassed as a psychic scarfer. however gardevoir is very good as a fairy scarfer, which is why it is c rank.

 

[Durant]

I'm really not quite sure why you're using a Gardevoir to EVER tank physical hits. Physically Defensive/Tank Gardevoir was never a thing. It's meant for one thing only, scarfed fairy moves for RKing.

And in that one thing, it isn´t even that great. There are plenty of revenge killers Gardevoir has to compete with and Gardevoir doesn't have anything over them aside from niche moves. It can be a surprise to people suspecting Mega Gardevoir but the same can be said for normal Charizard and that isn't viable in OU either.