It's not like the retyping could hurt blissey. It's already considered outclassed by chansey, so the switch gives it genuine and practical use over its sister. Not sure it's worth voting for though, as it still has huge competition
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yeah, I'm more inclined to vote for Slack Off Blastoise, tbh. It just seems like a great buff.
Slack Off M-Blastoise- I've grown to love M-toise, especially on my UU FWG core teams. A great spinner that fucks up ghosts, awesome bulk and defensive typing, and pseudo STAB from Mega Launcher, M-Toise is a fantastic pokemon overall. Its only problem is its lack of recovery, which Slack Off solves, allowing the most neglected mega starter to shine even in OU. The only problem is the 4MSS M-Toise gets, now that Rapid Spin and Slack Off are pretty much required.
Normal/Fairy Blissey- Ugh. No. Nothing you could do for Blissey could make it better than chansey. Sorry Valmanway :(
Defog Hydreigon- It's ok, still outclassed by Mandibuzz for Defog. It'd be ok, but I think it'd only work once. :/ I don't think Hydreigon was meant for anything but a Choice Scarf LO set, tbh.
Dragon/Poison Haxorus- ANOTHER DRAGON. Shocking. Another way people try to make some dragons more viable than others. THERE ARE MORE THAN JUST DRAGONS GUYS. Anyway, it'd hit fairies good, but that's the only difference tbh. Not stunning.
So yeah, Slack Off M-Toise is amazing, Hydreigon's ok, and Blissey/Haxorus I'm not fond of.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
The Haxorus STAB is amazing! It can finally counter fairies reliably!
VS chart (These calcs all done without LO, to show the sheer power, and all "why it matters" calcs are done without the poison typing, to show why it would matter otherwise)
VS chart (These calcs all done without LO, to show the sheer power, and all "why it matters" calcs are done without the poison typing, to show why it would matter otherwise)
NON STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 288-340 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 432-510 (120 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 432-510 (120 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 306-360 (101.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NON STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 296-350 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 444-524 (115.6 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 420-494 (139 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 444-524 (115.6 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 420-494 (139 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NON STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 272-322 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 264-312 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
NON STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 390-462 (129.1 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 390-462 (129.1 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NON STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 446-528 (113.1 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 368-434 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
STAB: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 446-528 (113.1 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
WHY IT MATTERS: 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 368-434 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's fine. I actually like Slack Off Blastoise more anyways.
Thanks for understanding, it was a good thought, just outclassed.
An idea for Zygarde: Access to recover and Iron Head, plus a defensive AND an offensive ability. The first is Regenerator, which allows it to play a defensive role better. The other is a new ability: Eruptor, which allows energy- and projectile-based Ground moves to hit Flying types for either normal or not very effective damage, whichever would be effective without being overpowered.
Actually, it's C+ and below, making Zygarde up for theory.
PM all suggestions to alexwolf's profile page. And no technical changes, no new abilities.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Well if all the good theorymons are in one batch then good ones will miss out. Besides the idea of fairy/normal blissey isn't that bad and
I'm not sure if you play on the ou ladder but defog hydriegon would completely shut down doessharp/aegi playstyle
Why in the world do you have Abomasnow in there? If it get hits by Dragon, it's pointless to use an example for why he should get a crappy secondary offensive typing.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Mega Abomasnow is what I meant to put but I made a mistake. Also I bet you didn't even look at the calcs, because if Abomasnow is the only thing you saw, you're pretty ignorant
Big deal, you took a random(crappy) pokemon that can OHKO a frail glass cannon and used it as evidence that we should care enough to want to give it a STAB boost to a terrible coverage move to ensure a OHKO. Well guess what, (Mega) Abomansow is a terrible pokemon and adding that calc is totally pointless and doesn't further your point. You're not going to see a garbage pokemon like Abomasnow and being able to hit it harder is irrelevant. If you're so scared of an Ice type, run Stealth Rocks like a normal person don't go giving a pokemon a terrible offensive type.
Yes, i hate Poison/Dragon Haxorus. If you want to get over Fairys use SD + LO or give it a CB. I don't know where the idea that Fairys can boldly switch into Haxorus came from. It doesn't need Poison STAB, it already laughs at any Fairy.
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The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
How so? Do you mean how a +1 Haxorus can't OHKO Clefable with Earthquake and get OHKO'd by Moonblast? Most fairies can switch in to haxorus, especially Clefable and Sylveon
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 515-606 (130.7 - 153.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 478-564 (121.3 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I said SD + LO. Why the hell would Haxorus need to get additional weaknesses to hit pokemon that can't wall it harder? If Fairys scare you(hint: they shouldn't) run SD. If they don't run DD and be walled by Skarmory. Thanks to it's movepool it's always going to be walled by something. I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on physically frail pokemon that just happen to be immune to it's STAB(even though he slices through them like butter).
Fairys aren't Haxorus main problem, it's that he's always going to be walled by something or if not hit first by something faster. Poison just means pokemon that can't even switch into it don't hit it as hard.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Oh really? You mean Haxorus dropped down to UU because fuck him? You mean fairies had no part in that? And I don't run SD + LO just because you do, and even if you did use SD you would still be walled by Skarmory. No matter what you do you're walled by skarmory.
Who cares? The point is that being able to get through Fairys doesn't solve the problem because he can already do that.
some hero Is right. Of all Dragons, Haxorus is actually one of the best able to overcome Fairy types thanks to his monstrous Attack stat, Mold Breaker, and Poison Jab. Fairies weren't his issue, 4MSS is really. As if he could run DD/SD, Outrage, Earthquake, Poison Jab and Taunt he'd have everything he needs. Like I said, Poison typing isn't what Haxorus explicitly needs to improve his viability. the main issue is either his base speed or his frailty. It can't be stated enough how much better Haxorus would perform with a speed of 105 or higher. Mold Breaker is one of his selling points, so a new ability isn't in order. If you could just shift 8 BST from a defensive or SpA stat over to speed it would literally make that much of a difference. But Haxorus is one of the best wall breakers around. Compared to Kyurem-B, he isn't weak to Stealth Rock and has two amazing boosting moves in Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. Coupled with Mold Breaker he absolutely devastates stall. This being his main niche, a secondary Poison typing isn't what he needs, because Swords Dance would give him the power he needs anyway. A +0 Poison Jab with STAB is an irrelevant calc because regarding the method you are supposed to employ Haxorus, he should only be coming in on safe switches and nabbing a boost of your choice.
And again, Skarmory is handled by Taunt pretty handily, if you choose to run it. And again, if you run Dragon Dance, I do advise it.
And again, Skarmory is handled by Taunt pretty handily, if you choose to run it. And again, if you run Dragon Dance, I do advise it.
If you want a Dragon Dancer that can beat Fairies, Iron Head Dragonite and Iron Tail Salamence are better options honestly. They can 2HKO any Fairy that switches in. If you want an all out attacker or a Swords Dance using Dragon type, Poison Jab Garchomp can also 2HKO any Fairy types. Any of these three can also 2HKO Quagsire with a LO Outrage. So everything which Haxorus supposedly deals with better can already be dealt with by the other Dragon types which are better than Haxorus.
It can't get past Skarmory, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, or Slowbro at +1 which makes it a really bad stallbreaker. At +2, it still fails against Skarmory no matter what, and it needs Outrage to kill the rest. If you are willing to run Swords Dance and Outrage, you are better off with Garchomp at that point since it has Fire type coverage and a good STAB outside of Outrage.
Kyurem-B and Garchomp are used as stallbreakers much more frequently than Haxorus because they have much better bulk and coverage to take advantage of. Haxorus is ranked C+ because any role it can take (stallbreaker, Dragon Dance sweeper, all out attacker) is outclassed by another Dragon type and getting Poison STAB doesn't really change that.
Guess what, +1 DD provides the same amount of boost to Poison Jab as a STAB boost, so the poison typing isn't helping. No Haxorus without a boosting item is not going to use a non boosting move on the turn the fairy comes in anyway hence the calcs are hardly realistic. Maybe except Scarf, but why bother run a Scarf when killing fairies is the concern?
Well you're gonna have to spend a turn to get that +1 DD up. And after you get a +1 DD ALONG with stab poison jab, you pretty much OHKO all fairy pokes except mega mawile and klefki, maybe.escarlata said:
Pretty much any pokemon which can learn DD makes a horrible scarfer, because it gets BOTH a 'scarf' and a 'band' after one turn of boosting. So the question should be, "Why bother running a scarf when you can screw up nearly every fairy with a single DD"escarlata said:
Also, do note that other dragon types can kill fairies just fine. I've seen and played enough OU monotype battles to say that it seriously isn't hard for a mono Dragon team to kill a mono Fairy team, considering that nearly every dragon type can learn earthquake, poison jab and iron head. Regarding an OU team, I don't see how part-poison haxorus would really make a huge difference, unless you seriously lack a decent fairy counter.
Except Haxorus don't need STAB to kill most Fairies:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 307-361 (82 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 281-333 (102.5 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With SR, the only Fairy that doesn't get OHKOed by unSTABed Poison Jab is Magic Guard Clefable, everything else is cleanly OHKOed. Hence, the only merit that Poison gives Haxorus are limited to the defensive ones, but everything with something resisted by Dragon/Poison just so happens to have something else to hit it hard.
I never did say it is useful as a scarfer. I merely stated that the only time where having Poison STAB matters is when it doesn't have a boosting item and still doesn't set up, which means it is probably holding Scarf or something.
Overall, Haxorus with a secondary poison typing isn't going to influence the meta much.
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Ah okay, my bad then. But then again, no one would actually USE a scarf haxorus, because it can learn DD. Assault vest would be pretty much useless on Haxorus. Choice band wouldn't be used either, because of DD and SD ofc. So that last part would probably be never. Lolescarlata said:
Agreed.
Just like every round, there are going to be people who will vote for Haxorus no matter what, so trying to win them over at this point is a lost cause. I think it would be more interesting to discuss Hydreigon and Mega Blastoise at this point.
They are both very similar in a lot of ways. Both of them are good hazard cleaners with reliable recovery. They both effectively have Dark STAB to kill Deoxys-D and Aegislash. They both have powerful Fighting type attacks kill Bisharp.
Mega Blastoise is probably better overall because it has better Base stats thanks to being a mega. Its great mixed bulk allows it to take on many more OU threats than Hydreigon. Rapid Spin also does not clear your own hazards which is an advantage Mega Blastoise has. Of course, the flip side of the coin is that Mega Blastoise takes up your mega slot and Hydreigon doesn't.
Since Slack Off Mega Blastoise was my suggestion, I should do some lobbying for it. Its defenses are very similar to Mega Venusaur's, but it arguably has better defensive typing because of it is not weak to Flying type attacks and it resists Fire type attacks. It also has better recovery than Mega Venusaur since Slack Off is not weather dependent and has more PP. It has significantly better special attack and a much better movepool boosted by Mega Launcher to take advantage of. It is true that Mega Blastoise cannot run all of its moves on one set, but it can be tailored to defeat almost any threat you want to it beat.
There are also some gimmicks that Mega Blastoise may be able to pull off. A CounterCoat set could possibly work thanks to its bulk and the fact that it can now recover off the damage. Reliable healing makes Water Spout more of a possibility. Mega Blastoise has a really deep movepool and there are a lot of different things you could try out now that its biggest flaw has been fixed.
They are both very similar in a lot of ways. Both of them are good hazard cleaners with reliable recovery. They both effectively have Dark STAB to kill Deoxys-D and Aegislash. They both have powerful Fighting type attacks kill Bisharp.
Mega Blastoise is probably better overall because it has better Base stats thanks to being a mega. Its great mixed bulk allows it to take on many more OU threats than Hydreigon. Rapid Spin also does not clear your own hazards which is an advantage Mega Blastoise has. Of course, the flip side of the coin is that Mega Blastoise takes up your mega slot and Hydreigon doesn't.
Since Slack Off Mega Blastoise was my suggestion, I should do some lobbying for it. Its defenses are very similar to Mega Venusaur's, but it arguably has better defensive typing because of it is not weak to Flying type attacks and it resists Fire type attacks. It also has better recovery than Mega Venusaur since Slack Off is not weather dependent and has more PP. It has significantly better special attack and a much better movepool boosted by Mega Launcher to take advantage of. It is true that Mega Blastoise cannot run all of its moves on one set, but it can be tailored to defeat almost any threat you want to it beat.
There are also some gimmicks that Mega Blastoise may be able to pull off. A CounterCoat set could possibly work thanks to its bulk and the fact that it can now recover off the damage. Reliable healing makes Water Spout more of a possibility. Mega Blastoise has a really deep movepool and there are a lot of different things you could try out now that its biggest flaw has been fixed.
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