Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Heysup]

+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-18 (51.8 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 156 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(And just for Rowan +1 236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 28-36 (121.7 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

I find the first especially ironic, considering that I actually stated that you should account for Poison Jab or Zen Headbutt in your calcs. And before you say a word, yes I am aware that the defensive spreads on Timburr and Mienfoo are not the best, but I added the extra bulk simply to make my point. In addition, both Timburr and Mienfoo stand a good chance of being straight OHKOed by HJK after rocks, making them not even checks. Checks are not counters.

This is absolute gold. I literally had just said this:

I swear every time you post an argument with calculations you make the opposition's case.

Ironic indeed. Honestly, I'm going to let you figure out why your calculations prove my case (the part where it doesn't say OHKO is a good place to start looking).

I won't spam calcs this time, except for the ones I anticipate you disagree on.

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Pawniard

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- all Scraggy, although it loses eviolite
Mienfoo- except HJK or Scarf Foo. Intimidate Scraggy especially. +1 HJK OHKOes.
Archen- all Scraggy, barring Berry Juice activated Archen, especially intimidate Scraffy. 55 BP acrobatics doesn't do much, and Berry Juice Archen is OHKOed by Drain Punch after rocks.
Chinchou- barring Dazzling Gleam (which is rarely seen). Only Shed Skin Scraggy should attempt it, however, due to either scald burns or the uncommon thunder wave
Drilbur - all Scraggy. Receives minor damage doing so. Intimidate Scraggy comes out almost unscratched.
Dwebble - all Scraggy, although it loses Eviolite in the process
Porygon - Shed Skin Scraggy only
Tirtouga - Both variants, if Scraggy doesn't try to set up on a Smashed Tirtouga.
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 44-54 (209.5 - 257.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Shed Skin and Intimidate especially (Shed Skin mostly for scald on defensive Tirtouga)
Trubbish - Only Zen Headbutt Scraggy
Vullaby- Only non whirlwind variants. After rock damage, and Brave Bird recoil, HJK OHKOes.
Ferroseed - Only Shed Skin Scraggy
Houndour - all Scraggy.
Lickitung - all Scraggy
Munchlax - all Scraggy. Shed Skin especially, to avoid body slam paralysis.
Onix - only non-Taunt versions
Slowpoke - only Shed Skin Scraggy
Snover - all Scraggy. Scarf Snover has a speed tie with Scraggy, but does not have a guaranteed 2HKO with blizzard.
Torchic - or especially whatever it passes to. With the correct move, it dies to a +1 HJK/Knock Off
Vulpix - except Scarf Vulpix, all Scraggy.

Just because I said I knew you were going to spam calcs, doesn't mean you should avoid doing them altogether. Please tell me you're trolling. You could have at least done bad calcs with the incorrect spreads as usual and that would have almost been better. I'll even do it with Max Attack Adamant Scraggy to make sure you don't have any arguments left.

"Mienfoo- except HJK or Scarf Foo. Intimidate Scraggy especially. +1 HJK OHKOes." -
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Big OHKO right?

Archen? Acrobatics still does like 65% to Scraggy and without SR in play it actually fails to KO and loses.
Chinchou? You said Moxie Scraggy, every other argument you have hinges on that ability so pick your poison. Thunder Wave and Dazzling Gleam easily win, and if people really cared about Scraggy, they would use it.
Dwebble Knocks Off.
Porygon Thunder Wave.
Tirtouga sets up and wins if Scraggy tries to Dragon Dance. (you forgot sturdy+juice)
Vullaby uhh..no. 156 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Ferroseed Thunder Wave.
Onix Taunts.
Slowpoke Thunder Wave (though you could argue it's too scared of Knock Off)
Torchic can +2 and pass.
Vulpix WoWs.

That leaves like 8 of your 20 hand-picked Pokemon. Once again proving my point for me.

Big difference between something like Zigzagoon and Scraggy? Scraggy actually has bulk and isn't checked by the two most common things in the meta.

Don't add words to my sentences. You (as in you, Heysup, not everybody in the Little Cup meta) have given indication before that a 19 speed mon holding a scarf is a gimmick. But if people are forced to run gimmicks to beat you, then that's an indication of metagame shaping, not just being a good mon.

What the fuck are you talking about? You said word for word "hopefully we can agree Scarfed Misdreavus is a poor set in general". I said no, we can't. That's a ridiculous thing to say as I'm Scarf Misdreavus gets more use alone than some A-B Pokemon. Just to further explain Scarf Missy: 19 SpA Ghost-type STAB is insanely good and the ability to Trick its Specs onto something like Porygon is invaluable for a team. It also outpaces Tirtouga and can Scarf Destiny Bond any Pokemon that are getting out of hand. It's not a gimmick and as I said, you saying that and saying we can agree is just a perfect demonstration of a statement you just pull out of your ass and have no factual basis. You don't get to call me an asshole because I make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about when you insult my (and frankly, everyone's) intelligence.

Lets not let this get out of hand like Meditite. Stop making stuff up.

 

[chimp]

Misdreavus doesn't check it unless it's scarf, which is incredibly predictable - if they're putting in Missie against a Scraggy that's at +1, it's likely scarfed. Pawniard doesn't check it, and Mienfoo doesn't check it unless it's scarf HJK either.

Besides the fact that I asked for a counter to +1 Scraggy, Scraggy can still beat them if they try to switch in on the setup turn.

236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Poison Jab vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So, while Spritzee can take two, Scraggy can easily switch out after doing almost 50% damage to something that walls the typically mono attacker Spritzee.

It doesn't matter if its predictable. Forcing out a boosted sweeper should be enough to qualify as a check. I'll admit to being wrong about Mienfoo though. (damn that HJK is powerful)

Even if you hit Mienfoo coming in with a HJK, it can survive and possibly strike back with a fatal Drain Punch. Timburr is still a little shaky.

 

[tcr]

I'd just like to change my stance on Scraggy. I am going to side with Heysup on this one as quite honestly he DOES have a point on you essentially using poor arguments to only further your opponent's case. However before this turns into an ad hominem attacks, I'd like to weigh myself in. Scraggy is honestly so cute, I feel like I may have been very biased on its positioning. I'd like Scraggy to be A neutral. It is a powerful enough late game sweeper, that A- or even B is too low for it imo. Yes, it has counters in Spritzee, or Croagunk, or Trubbish. It has checks in Pokemon such as Fletchling, Mienfoo, Misdreavus. It DOES have a hard time switching in and setting up, however there are Pokemon that it can set up on. More often than not, it needs support to be functional. Wallbreaking, in Pokemon such as Pawniard or Carvanha, hazards, such as Dwebble, possible trapping support, the abilty to pinpoint and wear down Spritzee. Most Pokemon do need support however. Fletchling, for example, usually requires at least Stealth Rockk and Diglett support. Scraggy is not anywhere near B rank (which is how I interpret A- Rank, as Pokemon that are on the edge), yet it is not quite S rank, which is about the same thing as A-, except it is teetering on A+ to S rank.

Merritt I would advise you to learn how to use damage calculations. Hastily constructing them in order to get to your argument as fast as possible is not the way to do them. For one, almost any calc I have seen you do has been using the EVs on the damage calculator. You also use them in near impossibile situations, such as in one calc having Moxie as the ability, or in the other having Shed Skin. I'm honestly surprised you haven't pulled Intimidate Scraggy out yet. For example, in those calcs (and here I'll basically give you what Heysup was trying to construe) you claim these calcs prove that previous "counters" are not counters at all. Spritzee is adefinite counter. It lives a Poison Jab, can literally come in on ANY attack and live (nothing Scraggy can carry 2hkoes Spritzee unless at +1, which is a stupid argument where you assume your opponent was stupid and didnt switch in their Scraggy C/c). It OHKOes in return. Mienfoo and Timburr both win, as Drain Punch beats Scraggy as the recovery pushes Scraggy into 3hkoing essentially, while Mienfoo still 2hkoes. Timburr is the same way.

The ability to be forced out by common Pokemon such as Mienfoo, Timburr, Vullaby, Spritzee, Croagunk, Fletchling, and Archen are just too much for Scraggy to be A+ rank (Even I agree with this). However, the ability to actually do damage against a lot of top tier threats, set up extremely well late game, and beat Pokemon such as Chinchou really push it past A- Rank imo. Its not bad, but its not super good. I'll make an assumption, and say that I think that Heysup is trying to convey the point that A+ rank is only reserved for the best of the best, while S rank is there for obviously those Pokemon that are too good for the metagame. I think that my personal interpretation of what is expected of A+ rank Pokemon us lower than Heysup's expectation, correct me if I'm wrong Heysup?

 

[Heysup]

I'd just like to change my stance on Scraggy. I am going to side with Heysup on this one as quite honestly he DOES have a point on you essentially using poor arguments to only further your opponent's case. However before this turns into an ad hominem attacks, I'd like to weigh myself in. Scraggy is honestly so cute, I feel like I may have been very biased on its positioning. I'd like Scraggy to be A neutral. It is a powerful enough late game sweeper, that A- or even B is too low for it imo. Yes, it has counters in Spritzee, or Croagunk, or Trubbish. It has checks in Pokemon such as Fletchling, Mienfoo, Misdreavus. It DOES have a hard time switching in and setting up, however there are Pokemon that it can set up on. More often than not, it needs support to be functional. Wallbreaking, in Pokemon such as Pawniard or Carvanha, hazards, such as Dwebble, possible trapping support, the abilty to pinpoint and wear down Spritzee. Most Pokemon do need support however. Fletchling, for example, usually requires at least Stealth Rockk and Diglett support. Scraggy is not anywhere near B rank (which is how I interpret A- Rank, as Pokemon that are on the edge), yet it is not quite S rank, which is about the same thing as A-, except it is teetering on A+ to S rank.

Merritt I would advise you to learn how to use damage calculations. Hastily constructing them in order to get to your argument as fast as possible is not the way to do them. For one, almost any calc I have seen you do has been using the EVs on the damage calculator. You also use them in near impossibile situations, such as in one calc having Moxie as the ability, or in the other having Shed Skin. I'm honestly surprised you haven't pulled Intimidate Scraggy out yet. For example, in those calcs (and here I'll basically give you what Heysup was trying to construe) you claim these calcs prove that previous "counters" are not counters at all. Spritzee is adefinite counter. It lives a Poison Jab, can literally come in on ANY attack and live (nothing Scraggy can carry 2hkoes Spritzee unless at +1, which is a stupid argument where you assume your opponent was stupid and didnt switch in their Scraggy C/c). It OHKOes in return. Mienfoo and Timburr both win, as Drain Punch beats Scraggy as the recovery pushes Scraggy into 3hkoing essentially, while Mienfoo still 2hkoes. Timburr is the same way.

The ability to be forced out by common Pokemon such as Mienfoo, Timburr, Vullaby, Spritzee, Croagunk, Fletchling, and Archen are just too much for Scraggy to be A+ rank (Even I agree with this). However, the ability to actually do damage against a lot of top tier threats, set up extremely well late game, and beat Pokemon such as Chinchou really push it past A- Rank imo. Its not bad, but its not super good. I'll make an assumption, and say that I think that Heysup is trying to convey the point that A+ rank is only reserved for the best of the best, while S rank is there for obviously those Pokemon that are too good for the metagame. I think that my personal interpretation of what is expected of A+ rank Pokemon us lower than Heysup's expectation, correct me if I'm wrong Heysup?

Ad hominem attacks shouldn't be used anywhere in a thread like this, hopefully it doesn't sound too much like I'm attacking Merritt and mostly just being incredibly harsh on his "logic and arguments....

Otherwise you are mostly correct in what I'm saying, just not to the same extent. You actually did further the argument for Scraggy to be in above A- (or B) in terms of saying "its a late-game sweeper" so it doesn't need to blow by its counters to be in A, which I would agree with. This is where we get down to "what is actually a good enough late game sweeper to be in A". Lets just look at a Pokemon like Scraggy, and a B Pokemon such as Zigzagoon. Let's avoid vague words like "it's bulkier" and "it's stronger/faster" and stick to what exactly what it does.

Scraggy has STAB Knock Off for early-mid game and the limited ability to switch into things like Pawniard and spam STAB Knock Offs before late game. Zigzagoon has ES, which is kind of useful for revenge killing mid game against things like Fletchling and Carvanha. Obviously, Scraggy has the advantage in terms of early-mid game usage. However, as a late game sweeper, it's almost an embarrassment how much more threatening Zigzagoon is. We know Scraggy has more "bulk" but does that actually help it set up vs more Pokemon? I'd say, probably not (not even considering Memento). Keep in mind, unlike Scraggy, Zigzagoon simply needs to avoid being OHKOed rather than keeping its HP high enough to tank hits after failing to KO or failing to outspeed. There are not a lot of Pokemon that actually OHKO Zigzagoon (just in the A tier, the only Pokemon are the Fighting-types which Scraggy can't set up against anyway). It also doesn't give too much of a fuck about Thunder Wave and can also heal itself up through various Sturdy Juice users like Scraggy through Drain Punch.

Unlike Scraggy, once its set up, it's really hard to stop. It's viable counters are probably in the single digits. Pawniard is only a counter if its Eviolite is intact and its HP is basically full AND if Zigzagoon isn't at near full HP. Archen needs to be healthy and w/o Stealth Rock up. Misdreavus can burn it but still loses (even though it stops the sweep). Things that are slower than it can almost never KO because Zigzagoon steals their eviolite/berry juice first with Thief and then it easily finishes them off with ES.

I could probably go more in depth, but my point is this: while Scraggy has a mid-game advantage, there is not a chance in hell that it makes up for the insane sweeping potential advantage of Zigzagoon. Both need team support to sweep, but with similar levels of support, Zigzagoon actually sweeps a majority of the tier whereas Scraggy doesn't, or at least not to the same extent. With this in mind, how can we call one A and one B? I'm not about to suggest Zigzagoon is A-, and while it may sound extreme to put Scraggy in B, the argument is at the very least steered in that direction.

 

[Hakumen]

Here is my opinion :

Top
Carvanha, Chinchou, Fletchling, Timburr, Tirtouga

Carvanha is arguably the single best late game sweeper and one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier. Once the opponent team is weakened enough, Carvanha will most-likely sweep. It’s also really dangerous mid-game as it’s an excellent wallbreaker that can 2HKO almost everything. Eventually, having access to Destiny Bond is huge at it allows it to take down a counter/check while dying which may enables a teammate to sweep.

Chinchou is easily the best pivot in the tier. It checks lots of prominent threats such as Fletchling and can support the team with Thunder Wave or Heal Bell. It’s also versatile, has great coverage, is quite powerful and provides momentum thanks to Volt Switch. Chinchou is very metagame-defining, can fit onto basically every team and thus should definitely be A+ rank.

Fletchling is excellent and requires no explanation. It’s the best revenge killer, an amazing cleaner and one of the best sweepers. Really, it’s a dominating force in the metagame and is definitely A+ rank worthy.

Timburr is extremely useful in LC. It’s one of the best answers to Pawniard and checks ton of threats like Carvanha and Chinchou. It’s also really powerful, has good coverage and can possibly sweep with Bulk Up. It suffers from competition with Mienfoo but it makes up thanks to Guts and Mach Punch so it should be A+ rank imo.

Tirtouga is awesome and definitely one of the best answers to Fletchling. When using SturdyJuice it’s an amazing sweeper that gets lots of opportunities to set-up, is really threatening after a Shell Smash, isn’t revenge killed by Fletchling and can even play around counters by running other moves(i.e Earthquake for Croagunk and HP Fire for Feroseed). But, it also has a myriad of other sets, it can run a bulkier Shell Smash set with Solid Rock and can be a great bulky Stealth Rock setter. Its efficiency coupled with its versatily make it A+ rank imo.

Mid
Archen, Cottonee, Drilbur, Dwebble, Magnemite, Scraggy

Archen is really important because it’s one of the best Fletchling’s check and the only thing that reliably beat Flethling+Dugtrio core. It’s also the best Defogger in the tier as it can 2HKO Pawniard with Earthquake and a great SR setter. It also hits really hard, is quite fast and kinda bulky. Eventually, it has an amazing movepool with lots of options. With that said, Defeatist, the weakness to Stealth Rock and the 4mss keeps it from A+ rank.

Cottonee is without a doubt the best supporter in the tier. It provides incredible support to the team(i.e Encore, Knock Off, MementoStun Spore and so on), is the main reason of why risky sweepers like Zigzagoon and Omanyte are viable and is really annoying to face overall. It can also checks threats like Carvanha, Tirtouga, Chinchou and fighting-types as well as easily dealing with most set-up sweepers in general thanks to Encore. It’s not A+ rank worthy though as it struggles vs prominent threats like Fletchling and Pawniard, is a bit too weak and heavily suffers from 4mss.

Drilbur is the best Spiner in the meta as it can beat every spinblocker and it’s even able to spin on most hazard setter. It’s also an amazing SR setter itself and is quite powerful and quite bulky. It’s really threatening itself especially when using Swords Dance (which allows it to beat lead Dwebble). But, It has an awful defensive typing, relies on a weak coverage move and while it isn't slow, it's not fast enough so it's not A+rank.

Dwebble is without a doubt the best offensive hazard setter in the tier and the only reason spikes attacking team is viable. Thanks to SturdyJuice and good speed, it can easily set up hazards. However, It’s predictable(as Shell Smash set is kinda bad, leaving the hazard set as the only one really viable) so you can lead with something that can beat it.

Magnemite is really cool and one of the best pivots available. It can check nearly everything thanks to Sturdy+Berry Juice and cool resistances. It also hits quite hard and can 2HKO most switch-ins(even RestTalker Chinchou takes 40% on HP Ground) and can provide momentum thanks to Volt Switch. It really needs prediction though(for instance, when SR are up, you need to predict a hit that bring magnet below 50% without killing ) so it's more A than A+ worthy.

Scraggy is one of the best and most threatening sweepers. It’s bulky so it can set up quite easily and after a Dragon Dance, it’s really powerful and really hard to stop. It can even play around its counters by running another move in last slot(Poison Jab for Spritzee, Zen Headbutt for Croagunk and Head Smash for Larvesta/Ponyta and Vullaby). I wouldn’t place it in A+ rank as it gets revenge kill by the super common Fletchling and can be walled according to what last move it runs but it’s still a fantastic mon.

Low

Croagunk, Ponyta, Porygon, Spritzee, Trubbish, Vullaby

Croagunk is cool because its typing let it check a large portion of the metagame( fightings, Tirtouga, Fairies etc) and is the only fighting that can actually check fairy-types. It also is quite versatile, able to run different movesets. However, It’s quite weak and faces competition according to what set it runs so it should be A-.

Ponyta is a good pivot thanks to its good bulk, ability and reliable recovery. It can also be a good lure with SunnyBeam set. It doesn’t wall that much though because of its weakness to SR, is kinda frail once it gets knocked off by fightings and relies on recoil moves so A-rank.

Porygon is nice. It’s an awesome bulky attacker that checks lots of common threats such as Misdreavus and Chinchou and has reliable recovery while being quite strong and having great coverage. But, the fact that it doesn’t have any resistance and that fightings are everywhere make it A-

Spritzee is the best Wisher and Cleric thanks to its incredible bulk and excellent typing. Its lack of offensive pressure means that it can be taken as an advantage for the opponent and it doesn’t wall as much as it used to so it should be A- rank imo.

Trubbish is a great glue. It checks many threats such as fighting-types, Pawniard and Spritzee, has access to Spikes,semi-reliable recovery and is a great switch into most Knock Off. However, it’s kinda weak and gives a free set up for some threats especially Missy prevents it from being higher than low A imo.

Vullaby is an okay defensive mon. It’s really bulky, can check fighting-types and can support the team with Knock Off and Defog. Ofensive set is also pretty fun in a flying-type meta. But, it really suffers from 4mss, is weak and faces competition from Archen(which is a better Defogger imo) and gives a boost to Pawniard while doing its job(unless it runs HP Fighting but then fighting-types can take advantage of it) so low A rank for it.

 

[apt-get]

Dwebble is without a doubt the best offensive hazard setter in the tier and the only reason spikes attacking team is viable. Thanks to SturdyJuice and good speed, it can easily set up hazards. However, It’s predictable(as Shell Smash set is kinda bad, leaving the hazard set as the only one really viable) so you can lead with something that can beat it.

I don't agree with shell smash being bad. It's a really dangerous threat, as most teams are prepared for SR+Spikes. EQ/Smash/Knock Off/Rock Blast is really dangerous, as you can threaten mienfoo with a knock off + EQ, which allows you to really weaken it (if mienfoo has some residual damage, it flat out KOes). Sturdy prevents fletch from RKing it, and EQ beats chinchou/magnemite/pawn. Plus, you aren't beaten by shit like archen/vullaby/etc. Really, it beats almost every single defensive pokémon. It also beats tirtouga, with knock off + eq. It easily sweeps, weakens fighting types, and hits hard, which are enough qualities for the smash set to be really good. I usually pair it with something like Riolu, as dwebble can beat shit like timburr/mienfoo/gunk/missy that stop a riolu sweep.

 

[tcr]

Good point Heysup. TBH I really have no rebuttal, other than that I personally find it harder to set up a Zig sweep than a Pantsman sweep (probabloy because I use Scraggy a shit ton more and am again, biased af).

As to the reference to ad hominem attacks, they werent really pointed at any one person. This thread has a history of almost certainly devolving into flame wars, and teeters on the balance between actual debate and jabs.

So as to change the topic, what do people think of Magnemite? I have had success not only using a Berry Juice set, but also with a Pawniard lure, usually in a team that really doesn't like taking Iron Heads or Knock Offs, and Eviolite Magnet Trap Mag works wonders. Berry Juice is excellent as well, and can be used as a blanket check / revenge killer / pivot or however people use it. There are even niche sets such as Magnet Rise that can beat things like Drilbur or Diglett, which is pretty cool. It is however walled by Chinchou, but I don't really think that is a good reason to keep it at A- or even B tier. I think it should o to A +/- tier.

 

[blarajan]

I would like to nominate Pancham for S-Rank, for the following reasons:

1) cute as FUCK
2) this set kicks ass:

Pancham @ Eviolite
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 5
EVs: 220 HP / 20 Def / 212 SDef / 20 Atk / 12 Spd
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Bulk Up
- Circle Throw

:)

 

[Aaron's Aron]

So my opinions on A rank...

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A+ Rank

• Archen - Archen is a check to Fletchling, and it never hurts to have more of those. Rock Tomb is very handy with that speed drop, and it can also hit hard with other moves too (off it's monstrous attack stat). It also has a wide range of support moves in Defog, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Tailwind, etc. Definitely worthy of A+ to me for being able to hit so many different things.

• Chinchou - Fletchling cries. Again, always a plus. It also walls so many different things, Magnemite for example, and can grab momentum with Volt Switch. I don't think much else needs to be said here.

• Croagunk - I have not used Croagunk to be honest, but every time I face it it seems to do well. Dry Skin is helpful for regaining health and getting momentum against predicted water moves, and Croagunk laughs at Scald's burns. It seems to check a lot a of things, including other fighting types, which is always handy.

• Fletchling - Scoff it you want, but Fletchling wrecks teams. Yes, it needs a bit of support occasionally (which is what prevents it from being S Rank), but it still takes out a lot of pokemon and can even sweep. I say that even if it only takes out two pokemon, it did it's job.

• Timburr - Bulky, powerful, Drain Punch for health. Mach Punch for priority. Guts to let it absorb burns. Just an all around great pokemon that can be used in different roles. I like it :)

A Rank

• Carvanha - If you can get a Swords Dance to this thing it is good game. Even without it, it has the power to sweep teams with it's high attack, speed, and priority Aqua Jet. It can even use a speedy Destiny Bond to help another teammate sweep. It does need it's counters taken out though (if it is going to sweep), and it can't take a sit to save it's life, which is the only thing preventing it from being a monster.

• Cottonee - Support. That is all. Seriously though, it has a great ability to support teams and check fighting types. The only thing that holds it back is being slightly underwhelming offensively, and not being able to support sometimes. However, it still checks things like Chinchou and Drilbur which is always nice.

• Drilbur - This is one of those pokemon that can do many different things. It can set up Stealth Rock, use Rapid Spin to clear rocks, use Swords Dance to hit the opponent hard or sweep. Definitely a good utility pokemon that can do what you need it to do.

• Magnemite - Definitely a hard hitting pivot. It has high Special Attack to hit something hard after surviving thanks to Sturdy, or it can run a Choice Scarf to cause some heavy damage with Volt Switch while grabbing momentum for your team. Unfortunately it is usually walled by Chinchou, one of the most common pokemon the the tier.

• Porygon - Defense! Defense! Offense! Wait... what? This thing has mammoth defenses with an Eviolite, and it takes hits from the strongest of attackers and is able to recover it back to continue to tank. It even hits hard with Tri Attack, as well as some handy coverage moves (it can be hard to know which ones as well). It even has handy abilities, with Download increasing its firepower and Trace turning the opponents abilities against them (*cough* *Chinchou* *cough*). The only things that hold Porygon back from the top are all the fighting types running rampant and the high use of Knock Off, as it noticeably decreases its bulk.

• Spritzee - Similar to Porygon, it tanks hits for days. It also has a strong attack to use in Moonblast. The main difference between Spritzee and Cottonee is that it supports the team with Wish and Aromatherapy, while Cottonee is a bit more offensive oriented. Spritzee also has Aroma Veil, which prevents it from being taunted or Encored, making it support difficult to stop. Unfortunately, as with Porygon, having its Eviolite Knocked Off makes it less bulky and harder to do its job.

• Scraggy - I don't really know. I have never used it, and I always seem to wreck it with Cottonee's and Missy's Dazzling Gleam. However, if I don't have anything to hit it hard it can cause some problems. But everyone else seems to like it so I will go with it. A it is.

• Tirtouga - SturdyJuice + Shell Smash? SturdyJuice + Stealth Rock? Solid Rock + Eviolite + Shell Smash? Solid Rock + Evioite + Stealth Rock? I don't know. You don't know. Who knows really? It can run many different sets, and while having some of the same counters, some are also very different. The first step to taking out Tirtouga is just figuring out what set it is, and unless you guess right, it will cost you a turn. It is also superb at laying down Stealth Rock, and can sweep through teams with Shell Smash (and even priority Aqua Jet). The only downside is that once you know the set, it isn't to hard to take out, and the Solid Rock + Eviolite + Stealth Rock set doesn't hit super hard while the Shell Smash set is left prone to priority. Opponent's Stealth Rock also breaks Sturdy which is a downside for you too.

A- Rank

• Dwebble - Same boat as Tirtouga, however it doesn't have the offensive moves to abuse Shell Smash as well or the typing to be a defensive pokemon.

• Ponyta - A good pokemon that can hit hard, but it lacks the power or bulk to do wither one especially well. A good all around pokemon, but a master of nothing. Has Morning sun to heal though which is nice, as well as Wild Charge to hit water type switch ins (except for Chinchou). Definitely a good choice for if you are trying to beat queenlucy though.

• Trubbish - Lacks a large amount of offensive power and is set up fodder for Missy. While it keeps it's Berry Juice, it still takes a lot of damage from Knock Off, and is forced to be using Recycle most of the time.

• Vullaby - It tanks hits vey hard and has Knock Off and Brave Bird to back it up. However, once it's Eviolite is knocked off it is easily worn down and Stealth Rock does not help it either. Also, having that extra dark type causes it to lose it's resistance to fighting type moves.

 

[tcr]

What why in the world would you ever put Carvanha as only an average A tier Pokemon? Carvanha is single handedly the greatest Offensive support Pokemon. It completely demolishes walls such as Porygon, Spritzee, and Archen, and can usually ire off a +3 Speed Destiny Bond if it is in trouble, often allowing a teammate to sweep. Honestly, if you try and use Carvanha as a late game sweeper, that is not its niche. It is not like Yanma in my opinion, as the ability to Destiny Bond changes its role slightly (if you don't use D bond on Carvanha you are doing it wrong). Being able to take out supposed "checks" such as Spritzee can be beneficial for Pokemon such as Scraggy. It is THE best wallbreaker in the game right now, but I would argue it is not one of the best Late Game sweepers.

 

[Heysup]

I think it depends on the team whether you opt for Destiny Bond or Aqua Jet. Carvahna is one of the only Pokemon that can actually sweep through a somewhat weakened Fletchling and often the advantage of being able to use Aqua Jet to finish a Pokemon off rather than having to risk Watefall or Protect will change the way a game plays out. If you're trying to pave the way for a Pawn/Scraggy/Foo w/e sweep, then yes, Destiny Bond is obviously the way to go, but Aqua Jet should not be understated.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

What why in the world would you ever put Carvanha as only an average A tier Pokemon? Carvanha is single handedly the greatest Offensive support Pokemon. It completely demolishes walls such as Porygon, Spritzee, and Archen, and can usually ire off a +3 Speed Destiny Bond if it is in trouble, often allowing a teammate to sweep. Honestly, if you try and use Carvanha as a late game sweeper, that is not its niche. It is not like Yanma in my opinion, as the ability to Destiny Bond changes its role slightly (if you don't use D bond on Carvanha you are doing it wrong). Being able to take out supposed "checks" such as Spritzee can be beneficial for Pokemon such as Scraggy. It is THE best wallbreaker in the game right now, but I would argue it is not one of the best Late Game sweepers.

True, very true. Good points. I will change it, as I agree with what you said and I can see it in A+. I used it with Aqua Jet though.

 

[Mienfoo]

nice try Mienfoo, hyping bunnelby to get even less drain punch switches...

D'awww you got me. XD Sorry I'm late.

 

[Rowan]

okay, here's a preliminary list to split up A rank tagging prem

A+
Chinchou
Fletchling
Tirtouga
Carvanha (got a few votes for A so could be up for debate)
Timburr
Archen (up for debate for A)

A
Cottonee
Drilbur
Magnemite
Dwebble (up for debate with A-)
Scraggy (up for debate with A-)
Porygon (up for debate with A-)

A-
Croagunk
Ponyta
Spritzee
Trubbish
Vullaby

That is what seems to be the general consensus. I'll implement this later or i'll be lazy and let prem do it (e: okay i did it). Feel free to carry on debating on the positions of Carvanha, Archen, Dwebble, Scraggy and Porygon. The rest are basically set for now.

 

[chimp]

I'd like to propose Foongus for A- rank.
I've been using it and I was really surprised at how good it was doing, especially now that its biggest threats, Murkrow and Meditite, are gone.
It walls so much stuff: Cottonee, Spritzee, Chinchou, fighters, and has regenerator and spore to potentially remove a counter. A well played Foongus can really turn the tides of battle in your favor.

 

[fliprushman]

I noticed these list did not rank Aipom. After playing him on my main team for a bit, I was thinking that he would require a reevaluation of it's viability. I think possibly somewhere in the B to C rank range.

This is the set I'm using him with currently but it's no where near ideal yet but covers a few things my team was struggling with.
Flings Poo! (Aipom) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Switcheroo
- Knock Off

Now C rank makes the most sense after looking at his abilities but he is really strong in the niche of revenge killing with STAB Fake-out, Switcheroo for disabling setup mons, and knock off and u-turn to deal with things that counter it.

What are some of your opinions?

 

[Punchshroom]

I noticed these list did not rank Aipom. After playing him on my main team for a bit, I was thinking that he would require a reevaluation of it's viability. I think possibly somewhere in the B to C rank range.

This is the set I'm using him with currently but it's no where near ideal yet but covers a few things my team was struggling with.
Flings Poo! (Aipom) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Switcheroo
- Knock Off

Now C rank makes the most sense after looking at his abilities but he is really strong in the niche of revenge killing with STAB Fake-out, Switcheroo for disabling setup mons, and knock off and u-turn to deal with things that counter it.

What are some of your opinions?

First off, that Aipom set is extremely gimmicky. Its main niche is STAB Fake Out for quick, immediate revenge killing if not followed by a fast attack...yet you equip a Choice Scarf on it so that it cannot do precisely that? That Aipom also has no good spamming options, meaning it has no way to clean up the game. Your Aipom set is functioning the exact same way the 'bad' Ambipoms do in their respective tiers; most everyone agrees that Fake Out / Return / Knock Off / anti-Rock or Steel move is the optimal set, as it allows Ambi to keep its strong Fake Out while having good staying and cleaning power.

Not that Aipom can feasibly try to pull off the same thing without facing much competition. Numerous priority users are present in the tier, namely Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Fletchling, which either have better defensive utility or possess better cleaning power. Aipom also faces competition in LC as a Normal-type attacker with Bunnelby and even Zigzagoon (both of which also perform as pinch revenge killers with Quick Attack / Extreme Speed), especially since they can effectively boost their power while Aipom cannot. Keep in mind these two are B Ranked Pokemon. Worse yet, Aipom's sole niche in a fast, strong Fake Out faces competition from Meowth, and while Meowth is weaker overall it is stronger where it matters (Technician Fake Out). I just cannot see Aipom going above C (where Meowth resides), and I'm being generous.

 

[Anthiese]

My reasonings and such

Hide

Carvanha A+ Strong mid/late game cleaner with high damage output and a speed boost makes revenging without prio impossible unless you're cottonee. frail as fuck and has 16 spe before the first boost so not all bad

Chinchou A+ One of the best water types in the meta right now since it hard counters all birds unless off. archen (i should calc eq vs resttalk)

Fletchling A the hypest bird right now with the most abusable set up in gale wings + acrobatics. cant do shit to stop memento cotton or rock/steel mons who can set up without impunity

Scraggy A- Solid DD sweeper who can run shed skin to avoid status that will most certainly come towards it or run moxie to increase attack. cant really beat other fighting types since drain is se and every fighting mons in lc bar machop runs it and even machop can win since dynamic is powerful af

Tirtouga A+ possibly the best SS sweeper in the teir who can also run a defensive set that can trip up the unexpecting.

Cottonee A+ One fo the best supporting fairies in the meta next to spritzee. for those who need a little balance to their ho, new x4 weak to poison is really lame, and 4mss is also lame. very worth a teamslot though

Drilbur A great spinner and sd + mold breaker nabs levitate ghost switch ins. faster ghosts (missy/gastly) can and will wow to weaken you.

Dwebble A- great at setting hazards, smashing is another story since it has less bases to cover but ti can break down sash mons and bust subs, something tirt struggles with.

Porygon A incredibly bulky pivot with recovery and two excellent abilites. lacking in the power department to mitigate damage to stay in longer though.

Trubbish A+ one of the best poison types in the game, great knock off absorber and hazard setter, beats a handful of fighting mons 1v1, cant do much if missy is around or if statused

Archen A can go bj offensive or evio defensive but will need roost to mitigate its bad ability.

Timburr A+ one of the bulkiest fighting mons in the meta and able to beat all others 1v1 most of the time bar croagunk.

Magnemite A+ Strong and fast pivot with sturdy bj or can run a anti mag trapper along with sr and hp ground (should calc to make sure this works but im p sure it's legit)

Ponyta A+ strong defensive fire type in the 19 spe club. Struggles with bulky waters namely chinchou and is forced to choose on return for coverage on it

Spritzee A singlehandely saving most lives of mons in the meta, able to run a decent CM set but oft loses to steels and fire types because lack of offensive pressure

Vullaby A- The premier defogger and is also now immune to powder thanks to overcoat but is forced to choose brave bird or heat wave to deal consistant damage

Croagunk A- a dark horse poison/fighting mon with a large movepool of offensive moves yet not enough spaces to accommodate them. akin to timburr it can beat most fighting types 1v1. it's also slow and slightly easy to hammer down.

So here is my completed list

A+
Carvanha
Chinchou
Tirtouga
Cottonee
Trubbish
Timburr
Magnemite
Ponyta

A
Fletchling
Porygon
Drilbur
Archen
Spritzee

A-
Scraggy
Dwebble
Vullaby
Croagunk

 

[boo836]

A+
Cottonee - It's not just the best support Fairy, but easily the best support Pokemon right now. Being able to beat Shell Smashers, Carv, Fighting types, Chou, and so much more.
Timburr - Bulk Up is scary af to face, and right now can beat very common stuff.
Fletchling - Dunno why people are putting this in A. Fletchling's lure set easily gets around Rock-types, Chinchou, ect with minimal sacrifice.
Chinchou - I'd actually nominate this for S if Fletchdig wasn't a thing. It fits onto virtually any team, has little opportunity cost to it, and checks a decent portion of the metagame.

A
Archen - Archen is really good (especially Tombchen, which I highly suggest people start using), but the cost of Defeatist really hurts it. That being said, even with Defeatist activated, it's still one hell of a Pokemon and has a lot of great options. I'm really on the fence between A and A+.
Spritzee - This thing has actually gotten better in this meta. Annoying as hell to face and can be absolutely devastating. It tanks most of the meta and really pairs well with other high ranking Pokemon, making it very viable.
Tirtouga - Sturdyjuice sucks vs SR, and Solid Rock still leaves it open to priority. Tbh, I don't like the thought of putting Shell Smashers past A in a metagame that's filled with priority. Doesn't sit right at all.
Carv - Strong as hell, but priority really sets it back. Same reasons as Tirtouga tbh.
Ponyta - Hesitant to put this here, but speedy WoW and hard hitting Flare Blitzes give it a really strong role as a pivot of sorts.

A-

Porygon - It's really eh in a metagame dominated by Fighting types. That being said, it's a great Chinchou counter and Missy check, and hits things relatively hard enough to still warrant a spot on a team.
Scraggy - Not really that great this meta. Best set right now is Scarf tbh since Fletch, Timburr, Cottonee, and more are everywhere. Still decent, but nowhere near as good as in Krowtite.
Trubbish - Annoying, but it doesn't do too much outside of checking Pawn and taking on Fighting types. SD Pawn messes it up, and it's kinda set up fodder for a lot of mons.
Magnemite - Also annoying, but again, ehh. Trubbish does Juice/Recycle better tbh. However, Mite checks Fletch.
Croagunk - It's really just on the list because of the niches it has in the metagame atm. Vacuum Wave is really helpful vs Pawn, and checking Fairies is always helpful.
Drilbur - I don't understand the hype for this thing. Sure, SD is great, but it's pretty frail and usually wants LO to nab OHKOs and break Sturdy on some Pokemon (cough Dwebble).

ABRA - Has little opportunity cost to run, kills a lot of things atm, and acts as a pretty good insurance policy in the face of stuff like Fletchling, Pawniard, and a lot more. Want to cut your opponent's pressure and push back to regain momentum? Abra's your Pokemon.


B+

Dwebble - Spikestacking isn't that valuable in the era of Birdspam. Trubbish lays down Spikes while actually having other roles.
Vullaby - Overrated bird. Stuff that hits it for SE are becoming commonplace, and it doesn't really provide much utility that Archen doesn't also do.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

I noticed these list did not rank Aipom. After playing him on my main team for a bit, I was thinking that he would require a reevaluation of it's viability. I think possibly somewhere in the B to C rank range.

This is the set I'm using him with currently but it's no where near ideal yet but covers a few things my team was struggling with.
Flings Poo! (Aipom) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Switcheroo
- Knock Off

Now C rank makes the most sense after looking at his abilities but he is really strong in the niche of revenge killing with STAB Fake-out, Switcheroo for disabling setup mons, and knock off and u-turn to deal with things that counter it.

What are some of your opinions?

Punchshroom pretty much covered evrything, so all I will say it that you need to take off that Scarf. Yes, you can make them flinch, but you are then giving them that turn back when you have to switch pokemon from being locked into Fake Out, which also gives them momentum.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Archen - keep A+.
Defeatist and weaknesses to popular attacking types prevent it from being especially potent as either an offensive or defensive Pokemon, but similarly to Chinchou, it is able to do both at once to a respectable degree; in addition, its brilliant supportive movepool allows it to fit on a huge number of teams looking to abuse its unmatched strengths. Archen is just able to do so many things so well with one Pokemon, despite its weaknesses.

Dwebble - Move to A-.
I guess the Shell Smash set could work as a win condition, but the amount of common things that are able to end its sweep makes this generally a lesser option. As for the hazard set, there are multiple popular ways to render it almost completely ineffective, both by preventing its set-up or removing the hazards afterward. I just feel as if it's too prepared for, and unlike a lot of other Pokemon that are also prepared for, Dwebble has little to no ways of actually getting around its counters. That isn't to say it doesn't still have a nice niche, of course.

Scraggy - Keep in A.
I'm a bit on the fence for this, since being beaten by a bunch of popular threats holds it back, but Scraggy still makes a phenomenal win condition that is fairly easy to set up against several common Pokemon without a huge amount of support, and packs a decent amount of utility before late game.

Porygon - Keep in A.
Porygon is able to severely cripple most of its switch-ins with the appropriate move, and thanks to a combination of bulk, utility moves, and reliable recovery, Porygon is consistently able to benefit the team significantly. It's not exactly weak, either, and has two very nice abilities for even more utility or power, all warranting a very significant place in the metagame.

Vullaby - Move to B.
Being an extremely bulky defogger with access to STAB Knock Off is great, but it sometimes struggles making a real impact in a metagame where so many things hit it hard. As Boo mentioned, Archen tends to be easier to fit on a team because it's not walled by as much stuff. This is all considering how B rank Pokemon can still be very solid, of course.

Foongus - Move to A-.
This is important dammit

Tirtouga - Sturdyjuice sucks vs SR, and Solid Rock still leaves it open to priority. Tbh, I don't like the thought of putting Shell Smashers past A in a metagame that's filled with priority. Doesn't sit right at all.

Support Tirtouga is a very popular set right now that should also be taken into consideration. It is able to repeatedly set up Stealth Rock or pose as a severe nuisance through Knock Off/Aqua Jet/Scald because of its decent resistances and phenomenal statistical bulk, at least physically.

 

[Pancham]

Tirtouga - Sturdyjuice sucks vs SR, and Solid Rock still leaves it open to priority. Tbh, I don't like the thought of putting Shell Smashers past A in a metagame that's filled with priority. Doesn't sit right at all.

You can also start running Solid Rock Shell Smasher, which is pretty fun in the current meta. Also, as Levi said, Support Tirtouga is incredible right now as well.

Reasonings for my proposed list

A+ Tier
Carvahna - Amazing cleaner. Pretty easy to identify as an A+mon in this metagame.
Chinchou - Great pivot. Easily one of the best pokemon in the tier.
Fletchling - Another amazing cleaner. Priority Acrobatics is really scary, especially late-game.
Timburr - A very bulky fighter, who is also really powerful. Bulk Up Timburr is really scary right now.
Tirtouga - An amazing support mon, and Solid Rock SS Tirt is pretty cool right now as well.

A Tier
Archen - Great counter to bird offense, but its weakness to Stealth Rock and ability of Defeatist prevent it from going any higher in its viability. Best Defogger in the current metagame, and has a great utility and support movepool, as well as offensive movepool.
Cottonee - Probably the best support pokemon in the tier right now.
Croagunk - Has amazing utility in being able to switch-in to a bunch of common threats in the current metagame.
Drilbur - Extremely scary to switch into, and one of the best hazard removers in the tier.
Magnemite - SturdyJuice is scary, especially with Recycle. It is also decently fast with scary special attack.
Scraggy - Great set up sweeper, and an aamzing scarf mon.

A- Tier
Dwebble * - Spike stacking is falling in viability, and I am not at all a fan of Shell Smash Dwebble, especially in the current metagame.
Porygon - The best Misdreavus switch-in in the tier, as it is a true counter unlike Pawniard. Other than this, I am not quite sure what else it can do. I guess it's also a decent bulky attacker with its Download set.
Spritzee * - It's a decent wall, resists common types, such as Dark and Fighting. It is also a pretty decent counter to many special attackers in the tier. I feel like it falls short due to not being able to switch into the most common Dark-type, Pawniard, and its inability to wall without Eviolite, as Knock Off is heavily rising in usage.
Trubbish * - Trubbish is a pretty fun mon to use, but I feel as though people are overstating its usefulness in the current metagame. BirdSpam is becoming a commonplace strategy in the current metagame, so obviously Spike Stackers is falling in viability. While SPike Trubbish does more than just stacks Spikes, I feel as though it is also easy to take advantage of right now.
Ponyta - Decent switch-in to physical attackers due to the burn chance, it is also hard to switch into because it has strong STABs and a decent offensive movepool.
Vullaby - I feel like it provides no support that Archen does, and Archen is just a better pokemon to have in the current metagame. It is still an extremely bulky wall, but Archen just does stuff a lot better.

 

[boo836]

Still, support Tirtouga doesn't really seem worthy for A+ either. Perhaps it could go there on account of Tirtouga's flexibility, but Idk.

 

[Holiday]

Idk if there's specific shit to talk about, but a Pokemon I'd like to see moved up is Corphish from C rank to B rank. With an excellent Atk stat and a godsend ability in Adaptability, Corphish becomes an excellent wall breaker with a 200 BP Crabhammer and a 80 BP Priority aqua jet. Eviolite gives it solid bulk. Knock Off is great for item removal, and (personally) Aerial Ace is solid to get around Croagunk. Other thoughts??

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Idk if there's specific shit to talk about, but a Pokemon I'd like to see moved up is Corphish from C rank to B rank. With an excellent Atk stat and a godsend ability in Adaptability, Corphish becomes an excellent wall breaker with a 200 BP Crabhammer and a 80 BP Priority aqua jet. Eviolite gives it solid bulk. Knock Off is great for item removal, and (personally) Aerial Ace is solid to get around Croagunk. Other thoughts??

I agree with that. I have never really thought about moving it up, but now that you say that and I think about it I agree. It hits really hard, and while predictable, it still manages to cause some massive damage and even has Knock Off which is always helpful. I know I didn't say much, but there just isn't much to say. It hit's really hard and has a powerful priority move.