But a Flying Gem set would have more freedom with its attacks, and if it knows Acrobatics, the Flying Gem would be consumed before the attack was used, thus boosting its power to extremely high levels between the Flying Gem boost, STAB, and the fact that it technically wouldn't be holding an item when it used the attack.
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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A mixed set is a bad idea, as outside of its Speed, Talonflame's stats are pretty pathetic. Add in a rather shallow set of special attacks, and you're better off going pure physical with a Choice Band.
If you want to nail heatran that badly I'd either use dugtrio as a teammate or natural gift.
IIRC, it was found that the Gems only do 1.33x damage and not the 1.5x from Gen 5. If I'm wrong someone correct me.
Gotta love how everyone ignored this post . I ironically made a thread about that move as its gen 5 maximum damage was 80. The ngift set actually opens acrobatics up more so since flying gem is unobtainable.
I would still use Brave Bird. The catch is that if you run Acrobatics with Natural Gift + a berry, you tie down your Flying-STAB to the use of Natural Gift. Talonflame's ability to immediately revenge kill just about anything with its Flying-STAB is what sets it apart from everything else. If you haven't lured in the poke you are luring in yet with Natural Gift, you could potentially be screwing yourself over if you need Talonflame's Flying-STAB to revenge kill something. 110 --> 65 is a huge loss of power, and you will be missing revenge kills because of being reliant on Natural Gift to get rid of your item.
Edit: nyczxjay yes that is true
I personally use
Roost
Flare blitz
Natural gift
Brave bird
My comment about acrobatics was in regards to the previous posts about it as a move.
You need SD for Natural Gift to be able to take out TFlame's counters (minus Heatran)...
252+ Atk Apicot Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 336-396 (87 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Apicot Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Apicot Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Ground) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 124-148 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 248-292 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's a niche set already but unless you only care about taking on Heatran (who in my experience is a lot less common than Ttar nowadays) not using SD makes your Natural Gift rather useless as you can only use it once.
Has anyone considered bulky dd megados to be a counter? I mean:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Gyarados: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
164+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Talonflame: 306-360 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Gyarados: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
164+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Talonflame: 306-360 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Counters aren't 2HKO'd by the things they're supposed to be countering.
Well how about Mega Aggron? Talonflame is OHKOed by stone edge, I think
If the Gyarados has Intimidate in its base form, the attack drop lets it beat Talonflame if it hasn't M-Evolved yet
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Gyarados: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Gyarados: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
164 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 374-444 (125.5 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That said, unless its a Rest-Talk set, it ends up too low on HP to do much else, and if it gets high damage rolls both times, it can't afford to set up.
I'd call Gyarados, Mega or Normal, a check at best, particularly if SR is on the field.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Gyarados: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Gyarados: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
164 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 374-444 (125.5 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That said, unless its a Rest-Talk set, it ends up too low on HP to do much else, and if it gets high damage rolls both times, it can't afford to set up.
I'd call Gyarados, Mega or Normal, a check at best, particularly if SR is on the field.
Bulk Up Talonflame is easily one of the best sets in the OU metagame. Choice Band provides immediate revenge killing power, a powerful Flare Blitz for wall-breaking, and a fast U-turn (+ Tailwind utility :D), but this set takes Talonflame to a new level. It absolutely demolishes stall (with Quagsire / Clefable being removed / weakened)with a combination of Roost + Taunt and can boost repeatedly until your opponent is turned to ashes. Its special defense is not really a problem since stall was never meant to be offensive and the only common two offensive powerhouses on stall teams are Mega Charizard X and CBBNite which both are boosted on. Will-O-Wisp over Taunt is an option two as it lets it severely cripple offensive and balanced teams alike. Its fast speed also makes sure Deoxys-D can't set up hazards as its Taunt is faster. In addition to that, Deoxys-D won't Magic Coat because it is usually expected to be a CB variant. Its priority Brave Bird can beat Offensive teams easily since most special attackers that beat it can't take a +1 / 2 Brave Bird like Latios and Greninja. It sets up on Landorus-I which is pretty ridiculous now. Bulk Up Talonflame is really getting powerful and popular and is easily one of the best sets to use nowadays. You heard right - it's that good.
Agreed. Bulk Up Talonflame is another very underrated set that is available. Very similar to the Stallbreaker set I had posted earlier, this set takes advantage of a fast enough taunt to beat stall, and Bulk Up to help it power through most unprepared teams.
I run a Careful Nature and 176 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef / 76 Spe
The EVs are fairly straight forward, outrun base 90s (Deo-D & other stall mons) catch them with the taunt and start setting up.
Of course I have replays:
Vs Offense - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119840894
Vs Denissss - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119826567
Vs Stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119812067
Vs Bulky Offense - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119482586
I use a pretty similar set months ago, custom made. It had Flare Blitz instead of Bulk Up, and a Sharp Beak. But the idea was similar: stay in instead of switching out, heal the rocks, and Taunt the walls that come to stop you. Worked pretty well. But I like the idea of using Bulk Up, might try it someday.
<hipster mode on> I used Taunt Talonflame before it was cool <hipster mode off>
Back in the early days of double bird, Talonflame was pretty often used as the utility oriented fowl, considering how easily Staraptor was worn down, and that people often needed a Ground immunity/u turn resist far earlier in the match than Raptor/Pinsir or Dragonite could afford to provide. For us hipsters, I'm sure we can agree that it was pretty fun to shut down Chansey's wish passing to her flying resisting partners.
Piggy backing on the Bulk Up topic, could we talk about how exquisite a partner Magnezone is to this set? Not only do you avoid grinding Talonflame to a pulp against defensive threats like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Skarmory, you can proceed to pressure Offensive threats to a degree, given some momentum.
Tbh, Bulk Up Talonflame uses Ferro as set up bait - Once it gets to +6 not much is going to stop it, let's not forget the fact that you're at +6 Defence running a specially orientated defensive set, you can easily gain a Roost to off-set the recoil. Skarmory is honestly in the same boat as Ferrothorn, it's set up for Talonflame, they both get hit by Taunt and can do nothing in return - the only redeeming factor in Skarmory's case is Counter.
Magnezone sounds like a great partner in theory but the major threats to this set are Tyranitar and Rotom-W, let me go into that further. Running a Talonflame without U-Turn is a huge burden as it can lose you a tonne of momentum if either of these two switch in. In fact, the set struggles with sand offence in general, Smooth Rock Tyranitar doesn't care about Talonflame's Brave Bird's and even Sand Rush Excadrill gains free switch ins - Magnezone isn't doing much to help you there, it's probably making Sand Offence and even bigger issue for you to face.
One of the best partners you can give Talonflame is a decent Fighting type.
Keldeo - is a nuke in the current meta, it's also a great BU Talonflame partner, switching into Tyranitar and creating a headache for the opposing team.
Breloom - These two were made for each others, Breloom handles all three Tyranitar, Excadrill & Rotom-W a very handy partner imo.
Conkeldurr - Another excellent partner, gaining a possible guts boosted burn from Rotom-W, not much will like to switch in.
I saw a lot of sets with choice band or life orb, but for teams with already 1 or 2 pokemon with life orb (if I folowed the most popular builds, 4-5/6 of my team would have life orb), what would be a good alternative to these items ?
I wonder about shell bell (restore 1/8 of the last attack damage) since talonflame can deal heavy damage without preparations and keeping brave bird/flare blitz's recoil in mind, it's seemed like a good item for this pokemon.
Right now I don't have the occasion to test this, thus I wanted your opinion. I think it's an interesting choice since the only alternative I saw until now was sharp beak.
I wonder about shell bell (restore 1/8 of the last attack damage) since talonflame can deal heavy damage without preparations and keeping brave bird/flare blitz's recoil in mind, it's seemed like a good item for this pokemon.
Right now I don't have the occasion to test this, thus I wanted your opinion. I think it's an interesting choice since the only alternative I saw until now was sharp beak.
Shell Bell is garbage and should never be used on anything except level 1 Endeavor Aron.
Try Sharp Beak. Similar power to LO but without the recoil.
Leftovers, rocky helmet, sharp beak, life orb, choice band are really the only viable item choices(unless flyimg gem comes out in ORAS) unless you go with an unconventional set . If you are trying to think of other options just think "what item will make sure my talonflame fills his role?" (a tailwind support, bulkier sweeper, burn and roost, revenge killer)
I think same but I though that leftovers's recovery was too weak to have a hard-to-kill talonflame
There aren't many other options on Talonflame until Flying Gem gets released. Leftovers is not as helpful on Talonflame as its on other bulky Pokemons, but it helps a bit, especially when picking off weaker Pokemons, the amount you recover is a bit about the same that you lose.
If you're looking for an item that interacts with the recoil free Acrobatics, Sitrus Berry is always an option on Swords Dance sets; depending on your investment, you can withstand some minor damage, return to 75% health after switching into Stealth Rock, or grind yourself down via recoil to get the boost.
A supremely popular offensive team one sees on the ladder features a Brave Bird + Acrobatics swords dance Talonflame that capitalizes on Sitrus Berry's effect. It is a respectable late game cleaner.
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