Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[skies]

Jesus Christ that thing is bulky as hell, how about in the sun? I would but I'm on crappy mobile phone.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 333-393 (89 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 157-186 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Here's both Charizards in Sun.

 

[Crestfall]

Okay, so this is just my personal look... Not based on usage or anything, but Porygon2 in C goes completely against what I've found in my own stall studies. While known for his setting of gravity, trick room and the lot, Pory2 has some unbelievable viability in this meta. Bolt beam coverage is as good as ever, and toxic stall still works satisfactory. Using Trace, Porygon2 gains even more ability in this meta. But let me show you what I've found with a physically defensive Pory2 running Discharge/Ice Beam/Toxic/Recover @Eviolite and trace.

You still think P2 is a gimmick?

Greninja: Pory2 steals protean... GG enemy team facing BoltBeam stab.
4 SpA Protean Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 240-284 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 140-165 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Garchomp-mega: Stealing sand force isn't useful. Getting Sand veil from Chomp might work, and rough skin turns this into an essential ohko.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 284-336 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sand: 135-159 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
And in a completely impossible situation with the first but showing off anyways:
252+ SpA Mega Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Gyarados-mega: Mold Breaker isn't useful vs Gyara but is nice to have on offhand situations later.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 98-116 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 84-100 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Mamoswine: Tracing thick fat is nice, but it should be spamming EQ at you. If anything, it makes a switch a tad easier. Mamos mostly don't run super power this generation, so this is an acceptable risk, and I could probably survive one. Pory2 uses toxic stall. Recover and Toxic go, no set up to fear. If anything, be cheeky and dodge some EQs by knowing it can't go to ice attacks or hit thick fat P2 who completely takes nothing from that.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 93-111 (24.8 - 29.6%)

Thundrus-i: Prankster recover/toxic. Nothing more to say.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 164-194 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Remember, P2 has prankster to outspeed the second focus blast.

Landorus-t: Intimidate lowers Lando's attacks, Ice beam destroys.
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Rotom-w: Levitate is all around goodness, but not good vs rotom-w. This is something P2 simply walls and spams toxic at.
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 87-103 (23.2 - 27.5%)
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 42-50 (13.8 - 16.4%)

Dragonite: Multiscale P2 is kind of impossible to take from full health. Good luck expecting Dnite to do anything with a 4x ice weakness.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 272-324 (83.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 76-91 (20.3 - 24.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage

Think P2 can't deal with Breloom? Let something else take sleep clause:

4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 204-242 (77.8 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 133-159 (35.5 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Have issues with toxic stall Gliscor? Steal poison heal, fear nothing from EQ and Ice beam back while keeping in perfect health.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 344-408 (97.1 - 115.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 54-64 (14.4 - 17.1%)

Check Landorus-i from full HP: If Focus Blast misses, you're left with a 100% Sheer Force Bolt beam attacker.
4 SpA Sheer Force Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 424-500 (132.5 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 283-335 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Destroy Talonflame.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 164-194 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 109-130 (29.1 - 34.7%)

Survive/Revenge +2 Mega Pinsir: I know that people like tri-attack to OHKO here, but really, after rocks, Pinsir-mega dies to P2 on a check.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 148-176 (54.4 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 255-301 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios tries to break you... Enjoy Levitate.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41 - 49%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Togekiss? Enjoy Serene Grace Ice Beam and Discharge.... Should toxic stall. Gave Toge Aura sphere just to show off.
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%)
4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 94-112 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Keldeo has an SE fight attack, right? This is more a pinch check, but Discharge getting a para makes this for sure win.
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Heatran may not be able to be killed, but it isn't doing anything to you.
4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 57-68 (15.2 - 18.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after sandstorm damage

Oh btw, tracing unaware from Quagsire is nice, and this also counters unaware CM Clefable.

After seeing that, realize these are ALL OU. So please, can we at least get B-? This is a hilarious failure by OU pokemon to deal with a single P2 set.

Togekiss can paraflinch you although you can toxic him on the turn of thunder wave. Heatran will status you with Toxic and stall better. As for MegaPinsir any good player running him will have Defog (or spin) and not have rocks present, so it's a clean 2hko and you won't be able to kill him.
And also:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-254 (57.7 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then not to mention Zard-X can easily break you, and is neutral to ice and resists discharge.

That being said I think Pory2 could move up once to C+ but no further. It's being way overrated.

 

[New World Order]

I mean, I said this literal months ago but no avail. P2 is the most underrated wall and probably ranks in the top 5. The only issue being the redundant typing with chansey, who is probably number 2.

(Imo the top 10: MVenu 1, Chansey 2, Sylveon 3, Skarmory 4, P2 5, Heatran 6, Chesnuaght 7, Quag 8 (too many bulk flaws), CharX 9, Clef 10).

Of course that's a subjective 10, but Venu/Chansey are obvious locks. Sylveon is the only other cleric I'd consider unless I was insanely weak to some setup sweeper Clef handled. Skarm takes Pinsir, which a few months ago would've made him #2 but meh. P2 does everything listed above. Second most versatility on the list, behind MVenu. Heatran is falling because a lot of EQ exists for Aegi and ZardX. Ches is rising because it resists that + gets TTar, Gyara mega and the more ferocious bulky DDancers not named ZardX. Quag obviously deserves mention, has bulk issues. CharX is underused, but is rock weak, sacrifices Venu and faces competition from heatran (doesn't handle mawile as well). Lastly... Clef is actually shit, but is a necessary evil for that unaware vs Manaphy sets. Better semi-stall CM Unaware but whatever works.
tl;dr, P2's easy top 5 best stall mons we can use... I'd like to see it represented as such. Obviously Zard, Heatran, Clef have uses outside of stall but I'd argue P2 could easily be as invaluable.

Seriously, you're ranking the likes of Sylveon and P2 ahead of stalwarts like Skarmory, Quagsire, and Clefable? That isn't a subjective top 10, it's objectively incorrect and you can, should, and will be mocked for that ranking. If you can find me a single high end tournament player who believes P2 is a top 5 stall mon I'll post a video of myself eating my underwear. P2 is a niche mon used to check a select few Pokemon in a select few situations, and even at that it is shaky and inconsistent due to it's lack of Leftovers recovery and it's weakness to Knock Off and opposing status. Note that Chansey can get away with it more easily due to Natural Cure+the fact that the only things you'd switch it into that might carry Knock Off are the genies. Also no offense, but some your calcs are bullshit too. You're calculating Mega Gyarados unboosted, which is a scenario that rarely ever occurs, it can often get up to +2 with ease. All it takes is one flinch for a +1 Mega Gyara to win, a +2 Mega Gyara straight up 2HKOs P2 after SR. P2 does not check Landorus-I in any shape or form, Earth Power 2HKOs after SR 95% of the time, and P2 can't do anything about it because of it's lack of Leftovers. You don't get to just assume Pinsir is going to be at 50%, even the most retarded of Mega Pinsir players know to clear out rocks before bringing it in (unless they have a clear path to victory or need it for a revenge kill), +2 Return is a clean 2HKO. Most Keldeos run Specs nowadays which cleanly 2HKOs P2 with Secret Sword. And the worst one of them all, the Latios calc, uhh, sandstorm damage? Really? You're going to willingly help P2 get 2HKOd by Psyshock into Draco Meteor before you even get to move after SR?

yea I'm probably underselling him a bit at C+, I've just found him to be a real tough, useful son of a bitch so B- would be great too, probably as or more usefull as any of the mons in that rank atm for stall teams

heres a spD build v Char Y
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 157-186 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO :o

Moving it up to C+ doesn't really hurt since the C ranks are basically for Pokemon that suck, B- is pushing it though. P2 is not only just a niche check against a select few threats, it's incredibly unreliable and inconsistent at doing so. A lot of the Pokemon he's supposedly capable of handling actually play around it with ease. Toxic from Heatran, Outrage from Dragonite, NP on Thundurus, Latios with HP Fighting (rise in usage lately) leading DM. Hell, even Talonflame can bs it's way through with it's Bulk Up set if you're lucky and don't get paralyzed by Discharge, which fails to 2HKO. Something that inconsistent is something I want to keep away from my stall team unless desperate.

Again, P2 can't deal with SR, so that 3HKO you see there would actually be a 2HKO in a real game scenario most of the time.

 

[Gary]

Weekly update: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-6#post-5461177

Thank you guys for still keeping up with the discussion over here. The VR thread is basically dead at the moment.

 

[Andrew]

I'd just had decent success with p2 in the 1700 elo range on a somewhat original stall team, while seeing him eat up attacks from a lot mons (not top wallbreakers)...this is why i advocated for just a slight bump to C+, or at least see what others think about his rating...if he really is that bad then i guess C is fine. just thought the duck could use some love.

edit: ok, thanks for clarification NWO

reply to subject 18: as to what p2 could do:

Garchomp - against non SD variant -
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 102-120 (27.2 - 32%) -- 62.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
p2 has 50% chance OHKO iirc after SR with ice beam

Lando-T: p2 can come in an intimidate, as long as he's not coming in on knock off, scout for that,
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
Ice beam has 80% chance to OHKO on max HP lando variant, so slimmer versions is guaranteed. If nothing else p2 can come in , trace intimidate sponge a hit and switch out, allowing another mon to come in safely

Gliscor: traces poison heal, watch out for knock off/taunt variants. Off course you may need heal bell support after this, but if you're able to take out the scorpion bat gliscor then you can have passive recovery until you switch out, which sounds nice haha

Talonflame - sometimes - P2 can eat a banded BB, bulk up like you said NWO would be more difficult , 30% parahax makes it risky, heres the calc for banded BB

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
In this case if I were to come in on this guy, I would just spam recover till recoil takes its toll and opp switch out to not want to lose tflame, giving you more opportunites to toxic, swithc out to counter, SR whatever

As to other Tflame, I've been having a lot of fun with this stall breaker TFlame by reprobate - #790 - bulky enough to take a few more hits than standard, here is a calc:
4 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 176 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- so, kind of risky in this situation, not sure how it would unfold. I *think* it's slightly in p2s favor as tflame has to rely on recovering more and avoiding twave, but besides that, that talonflame build on post 790 of talonflame thread is really fun to use, just wanted to say that Reprobate :)

Dragonite: CB Outrage 2hkos p2, against CBB nite he can toxic/trace multiscale but not much else due to great sp bulk, needs to watch out for WP, can't/doesnt want to take multiple boosts. this would be, very kind of situational


Gengar- Im not excatly sure what the preferred EV's are for taunt/wisp gengar, -
4 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 86-102 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
whereas gengar can burn and taunt...really not great for either of them. again p situational as gengar could be offensive carrying focus blast
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Excadrill -
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 96-114 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- 7.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

He can wall exca slightly, but doesnt do much damage to him, ice beam does max 31%, can recover

ok im really sorry for making long post again, i just wanted to back up a couple things. these guys are probs some of the better match ups for p2, but looking through the S/A ranks there are a lot of mons p2 doesnt want to stay in on for fear of set up, typing, or sheer power. He's pretty situational useful, and has a niche on some teams, kind of like, an assistant back up sponge that can surprise u now and then. It's nice to see that he's p bulky, but then again he can't stand up to repeated Char X, Keldeo, Terrakion, SD Scizor, Mega Maw, etc etc etc, sooo that's where I stand for that i guess


edit : also sry for this taking so long i had most of this written up and then i accidentely deleted it ;;;

I also did have some replays in the 1700+ range but it was like a month ago and i was a noob and forgot to put them on a notepad since ps only holds a certain amt, anyway, i need to remember to do that more often

 

[Subject 18]

ooookaaayyyy. What is going on here? Did we seriously stoop down to the point where Porygon 2 is being named top 5 best stall mons in this gen? Really? Seriously? All those calcs are so twisted to the point where Mega Pinsir is assumed to be at 50% when it comes in and is against P2, Landorus-I only goes for Focus Blast on P2 when Earth Power almost always 2hkos with Sr or a little bit of chip damage and Keldeo doesn't have choice specs or life orb on its calcs...

If you're going to advocate for something to be moved up or down, please have good reason behind it. Support your claim with good replays and realistic scenarios otherwise it won't be taken seriously. Now I don't want to say that I'm against it moving up but when your support is questionable at best, it's difficult for to me seriously consider it.

 

[New World Order]

Meh, I personally don't have a problem with the duck going up to C+, it wouldn't be the worst mon ranked there (yes Blastoise and Goodra I'm looking at you two).

One rather controversial change I'm thinking of is perhaps moving Latios to A+. Yeah we all know the story: Pursuit bait... except that unlike it's sister, Latios can actually maneuver around this if you're careful. Bisharp can be OHKOd by HP Fighting on the switch-in, Tyranitar doesn't exactly enjoy HP Fighting either, with non Scarf variants going down to a 2HKO as well. Aegislash is more problematic, but the standard Lefties Crumblers wont OHKO with Pursuit if Latios is at full HP (via Roost), you could even bs your way to victory with Earthquake along with careful prediction around Pursuit vs Shadow Ball (don't rely on this though). Now lets look at all the things it can do, it's probably the best Defog user in OU, it can sustain itself with reliable recovery, it's versatile and relevant offensively, it's got otherwise great defensive typing ignoring that nasty Pursuit weakness. This makes it a great choice for HO, bulky offense, and balanced alike (the sister is generally superior for stall). Now lets look at the myriad of Pokemon it counters/checks: Zard Y, Tanky Zard X, Venusaur, Manectric, Zapdos, R-W, non-Scarf Cube, non-Scarf Garchomp, Breloom, Thundurus, Keldeo, non-Knock Off Landorus (the Knock Off version is pretty much uncounterable anyway). Honestly, I feel this thing brings more to the table than some of the current A+ ranks, pretty much the only thing that's holding it back from the spot is that one evil move. But like I said, Latios can actually play around that problem with a bit of support, which is diagnostic of most A+ mons. In a similar vein, if Latios does get moved up, I'd consider restoring Latias' A ranking. This thing was overrated a few months ago, but it's gotten to the point where it's so overrated that it's now underrated. It also allows you to wipe off a good chunk of your threatlist, and Healing Wish is an absolute gift for offensive teams should you choose to run it (and helps you avoid the Pursuit business altogether). I don't feel as strongly about Latias as I do with Latios, and am fine with it remaining A-, but it just looks awkward placed alongside one-trick ponies like Mandibuzz and Manaphy.

This might just be my personal preference, but I feel that one Pokemon stands out among the motley crew of suckage/inconsistency/outclassed that is C+: I would strongly consider moving Krookodile to B-. It just does really well against some of the higher ranked mons, especially against Deosharp HO teams. It's surprisingly good at forcing switches and can consistently set up Stealth Rock. It has Taunt and Knock Off to pressure Deoxys-D. It doesn't give the slightest fuck about boosting Bisharp's attack since +1 Iron Head fails to 2HKO with Black Glasses (Deoxys-D has immense difficulty getting up SR against Krook), and Life Orb will kill itself after Krookodile EQs. If you're paranoid you can also sacrifice some bulk to Speed creep Bisharp. Aegislash gets destroyed: after Intimidate, Sacred Sword has trouble 4HKOing, only Flash Cannon variants have any hope of winning. It can check Zard-X thanks to Intimidate, as Adamant 252 Atk Dragon Claw fails to 2HKO, and should Zard-X opt to Flare Blitz, it'll kill itself with recoil after EQ. Non-Air Balloon Excadrill can also be shut down in a similar manner. If you have someone else carrying SR, you could fit on a move like Stone Edge or Toxic to check a Talonflame, Garchomp, or Dragonite. Also somewhere in there, a Choice Scarf set is viable (provided you go with Intimidate over Moxie to deal with prioirty) even though there doesn't seem to be one on the analysis. This lets you revenge kill the likes of Adamant DD Zard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Ttar, Thundurus, Latios etc, although I personally still prefer the support set simply because of how much it disrupts Deosharp.

 

[ItoI6]

I'd like to nominate Ditto for B rank.

It's a great tool for semi-stall and volt-turn teams to counter set up sweepers without resorting to weak unaware pokemon that will always lose momentum like quagsire (and that can still lose to set-up sweepers that carry the right coverage), and constantly limits the opponents play just by existing in the back. With the right support to defeat opposing stall teams Ditto will not disappoint, and even against those stall teams can function well in certain scenarios as a means of draining pp through doing stuff like copying regenerator amoongus, using a walls recovery move 5 times and switching out, and copying cm sweepers that are within kill range. This goes along with its great matchups against HO teams ofc which is currently way more popular in the meta than bulky offense and balanced teams. A lot of people complain about its 1 dimensional nature but I think it actually is very flexible because it constantly limits the opponents decisions about when they can safely set up or not. It enjoys frequent use at 1900+ level play and is used by several players on semi-stall archetypes to deal with HO teams and check certain pokemon effectively. Here are some replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119532294 vs balance
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-118178734 vs opposing semi-stall (go to around turn 100 lol)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-111282025 punishing setup

 

[Andrew]

Meh, I personally don't have a problem with the duck going up to C+, it wouldn't be the worst mon ranked there (yes Blastoise and Goodra I'm looking at you two).

One rather controversial change I'm thinking of is perhaps moving Latios to A+. Yeah we all know the story: Pursuit bait... except that unlike it's sister, Latios can actually maneuver around this if you're careful. Bisharp can be OHKOd by HP Fighting on the switch-in, Tyranitar doesn't exactly enjoy HP Fighting either, with non Scarf variants going down to a 2HKO as well. Aegislash is more problematic, but the standard Lefties Crumblers wont OHKO with Pursuit if Latios is at full HP (via Roost), you could even bs your way to victory with Earthquake along with careful prediction around Pursuit vs Shadow Ball (don't rely on this though). Now lets look at all the things it can do, it's probably the best Defog user in OU, it can sustain itself with reliable recovery, it's versatile and relevant offensively, it's got otherwise great defensive typing ignoring that nasty Pursuit weakness. This makes it a great choice for HO, bulky offense, and balanced alike (the sister is generally superior for stall). Now lets look at the myriad of Pokemon it counters/checks: Zard Y, Tanky Zard X, Venusaur, Manectric, Zapdos, R-W, non-Scarf Cube, non-Scarf Garchomp, Breloom, Thundurus, Keldeo, non-Knock Off Landorus (the Knock Off version is pretty much uncounterable anyway). Honestly, I feel this thing brings more to the table than some of the current A+ ranks, pretty much the only thing that's holding it back from the spot is that one evil move. But like I said, Latios can actually play around that problem with a bit of support, which is diagnostic of most A+ mons. In a similar vein, if Latios does get moved up, I'd consider restoring Latias' A ranking. This thing was overrated a few months ago, but it's gotten to the point where it's so overrated that it's now underrated. It also allows you to wipe off a good chunk of your threatlist, and Healing Wish is an absolute gift for offensive teams should you choose to run it (and helps you avoid the Pursuit business altogether). I don't feel as strongly about Latias as I do with Latios, and am fine with it remaining A-, but it just looks awkward placed alongside one-trick ponies like Mandibuzz and Manaphy.

My thoughts about Latios are a bit more scrambled than yours which are very thought out..imo when im building an offensive team and have gotten to the point where im using SR weak mons and need to think about the most reliable hazard clearer to insure defog/rapid spin, it's either Latios/Excadrill for offensivley inclined teams..imo Latios has gotten to the point where you almost have to use him on a more offensive team as the rest of defoggers like mandi/zap/whatever else are a bit more defensive.
Catching heatrans w/ earthquake is great, psyschok on m-venu/chansey is great, draco meteor KO's lando/thundy, + a lot of other matchups which uve already said

Anyway, I'm in a love/hate relationship with Latios, as he's so necessary and can really shine and is good for quick hazard removal. He's really good, but I hate the fact that i have to use him for offensive hazard clearing most of the time. this may be more of a problem with me not exploring other options, but on the other hand latios is usally so reliable. hp fighting sounds really nice for bisharp/t-tar switchins, but then there's also hp Fire which ive seen a lot for taking out scizor/ferro (dunno if its that popular tho)
anyway I'm not necessarily supporting or contradicting ur post btw, just throwing my thoughts out there haha. Latios is a manly man, i could see him in A+ due to sheer necessity (but it's probs not going out w/o a fight heh).


edit: also to ItoI6 , I've watched a bunch of your recent replays and the way your team works is pretty great...ditto definitely pulls his weight being able to deter set up, take advantage of set up, stall. Combined with Gothitelle there's no other way I can describe this team other than calling it "Disruptive Stall" - It's not reliant mainly on status or hazards or passive (besides gliscor), the main stars are Gothitelle+Ditto and from what I've seen of your playing it works extremely well although I'm guessing it's a bit harder for someone like me to play as many of the skillfull predictions are beyond me i guess...

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Bringing up Weavile and Jirachi again

Weavile: C+ ---------> B-/B
Jirachi: C- -----------> C/C+

1. Weavile

Weavile @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

Weavile is the fastest Knock Off user with STAB in the game. Knock Off is a huge improvement for Weavile, since it no longer has to rely on the weak night slash. Weavile is capable of revenge killing a large portion of the S and A rank, respectively. Do note that Weavile can't switch into these monsters, however, which is one of the reasons it is C+ right now.

Aegislash:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (105.7 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While Weavile has to watch out for King's Shield, it can OHKO even Aegislash with Knock Off, so it must rely on prediction to beat it. One wrong prediction, however, and Weavile dies to Sacred Sword. COULD WIN, COULD LOSE

Charizard (Mega-X)

Can KO with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock.

Deoxys-D
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Weavile prevents Deoxys-D from setting up more than one layer of hazards, and can also OHKO Bisharp with Low Kick. WIN

Deoxys-S

Weavile wins if Deoxys-S doesn't have Superpower.

Landorus

Ice Punch for the kill. WIN

Thundurus

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Weavile wins 81.3% of the time or eats a Thunder Wave. If it knows it won't be that useful for the rest of the match, however, Weavile can just OHKO with Ice Punch.

A+ Rank
Azumarill

no.

Bisharp

Resists Sucker Punch and can KO with Low Kick.

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Can KO with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock.

Clefable

Weavile can 2HKO with Ice Punch, but loses to offensive Clefable.

Excadrill

Excadrill takes 81%-96% from Knock Off, so while it usually wins against Weavile, it will take a huge amount of damage in the process.

Garchomp

One Ice Punch/Ice Shard and Chomp is dead.

Greninja
Greninja usually wins against Weavile thanks to its low weight, but if it KOed something with Dark Pulse or Ice Beam previously, Weavile beats it with Low Kick or Knock Off.

Gyarados (Mega)
Although Jolly Mega Gyarados usually wins if it switches in directly on weavile, this is not the case for Mega Gyarados who don't invest fully in speed.

Keldeo
no. It still dislikes Knock Off.

Mawile (Mega)
no.

Pinsir (Mega)
Ice Shard goes before Quick Attack, so Weavile usually wins.

Scizor (Mega)
lol

Talonflame
Weavile loses against Talonflame, but it should be noted that Ice Shard can force Talonflame to die from recoil damage.

Tyranitar (Mega)

Low Kick ftw.

A Rank

Dragonite

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.2 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Ice Punch can OHKO Dragonite even if Multiscale is active. Also, Ice Shard can remove any Dragonite from play if Stealth Rock is up.

Ferrothorn
Hates Knock Off and Low Kick, nevertheless it wins against Weavile with Gyro Ball.

Gengar
Knock Off OHKOes.

Heatran
Weavile can sometimes take a Lava Plume from a specially defensive Heatran and 2HKO with Low Kick. Offensive Heatran is flat-out OHKOed.

Hippowdon
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Things get ugly here. Hippowdon deals a large amount of damage with EQ and usually avoids the 2HKO from Ice Punch. Stealth Rock allows Weavile to beat it, though. Specially defensive Hippo loses.

Kyurem-B

Low Kick OHKOes after Stealth Rock damage.

Landorus-T

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 437-520 (114.3 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice Punch is a clean OHKO even with Intimidate.

Latios
Weak to both its STABs.

Terrakion
Non-Choice Scarf variants lose to Low Kick.

Tyranitar
Weavile OHKOes with Low Kick.

Venusaur (Mega)
Mega Venu actually wins since it has insane bulk and Thick Fat, so Ice Punch doesn't even 2HKO.

A- Rank
Chansey
Weavile can render it useless with Knock Off and then KO with Low Kick.

Latias
Dies to Knock Off.

Mamoswine
Focus Sash Mamoswine wins with Superpower; otherwise, loses to Low Kick.

Manaphy
Weavile usually loses against Manaphy since it can't 2HKO, while Manaphy can either 2HKO back or set up.

Mandibuzz
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz has retarded physical bulk, but Stealth Rock allows Weavile to 2HKO it no problem. Weavile does hate Foul Play.

Rotom-W
Takes a lot of damage from Knock Off, can't KO back with Hydro Pump. It can burn it, though.

Skarmory
no.

Zapdos
KOed by Ice Punch.

As for Rachi, besides what I said here:

Yeah, I know how the mighty have fallen. However, I don't think Rachi is hopeless. Remember it still has an absolutely enormous movepool and can still run a few sets without being outclassed (Scarf, Wish Maker, paraflinch). It just became a version of Mew with Serene Grace and a Steel- typing. Although Jirachi gained two weaknesses, it also received a resist to a common type (Fairy). Speaking of fairy-types, Jirachi can be a great help to mega zard x or garchomp (in fact, most dragon-types), since it beats Azumarill with ThunderPunch (or flinches it to death with iron head) and usually wins against most fairies (only mawile can beat it, but even then it has to watch out for Fire Punch). The Wish Maker set has a few advantages over chansey: offensive presence, can flinchax in a pinch and can spread status more reliably imo. The paraflinch set is somewhat outclassed by Togekiss, but Rachi is not weak to SR, can still annoy opponents (but not make them punch their monitor or throwing their laptop, unless you're fighting an idiot) and can beat Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Fire Punch.

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature

- Doom Desire
- Flash Cannon / Psyshock
- Psyshock / Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice

Specs Doom Desire Jirachi completely counters full Baton Pass chains, since it OHKOes Mr.Mime, Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon and doesn't care about any special defense boosts earlygame. If your Baton Pass team can't set up a Substitute, YOU LOSE. That alone is in my opinion enough to push it to C rank.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Doom Desire Jirachi completely counters full Baton Pass chains.

Uh

How

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Doom Desire uses the Special Defense stat of the target at the time of use. It also gets past Protect. That means Doom Desire Jirachi doesn't care about any Amnesia or Calm Mind boosts and can screw over Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon, OHKOing them with the help of Choice Specs. Also, Jirachi's teammates can try to weaken the members of a Baton Pass chain, bringing them into Doom Desire's KO range.

Jirachi also resists Sylveon's Hyper Voice, quadruple resists Espeon's Stored Power and doesn't really care about a potential Thunderbolt coming from Zapdos.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Finally, now people will stop mentioning Gastrodon and Sesmitoad every 5 pages.

Gastrodon makes sense, it's not amazing, but it's very annoying on stall (just like all the other stall mons).

I don't think I've ever seem a Sesmitoad in OU, though. But it's viable... I guess.

Also I agree with the guy who said to move Latios to A+.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Nominating Infernape for B-

The usage stats keep coming every month, and this thing refuses to leave OU. And I think it's for a good reason. It fits a good niche on offensive teams, being a mixed wallbreaker that it's hard to switch into, a fire attacker that doesn't mind rocks (Heatran can do that, though it's not that offensive), and a fighting attacker who doesn't care about burn (Conk can do that too, but again, not really good on offense). 104/104/108 offensive stats are pretty respectable after you give it a Life Orb. While it's never a nightmare to fight against, it's always a dangerous threat, who can work both as a wallbreaker or a late game cleaner if the team needs it.

With the Birdspam going down, and the rise of Deosharp, this pokemon is becoming more viable. It counters Bisharp if it has Mach Punch, or at least checks it without it. In a way, it functions as a weaker Keldeo. And while it faces a lot of competition from Keldeo, it has a different typing, so it can still be good.

I think C is underselling it. I'd put it somewhere on the B ranks.

 

[theV8man]

So one thing that IMO should be ranked higher is the gourd known as

Gourgeist XL. Now I don't think it should be ranked higher because of its defensive capabilities. Getting Will O' Wisp and being able to counter threats like Keldeo and Tyranitar is nice, but doesn't change the bad type weaknesses it has. The reason I want this ranked higher is because its one of the best Trick Room setters in the meta. Here's the lead set I've been using for my Trick Room team:

Frag Out! (Gourgeist-Super) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Destiny Bond
- Explosion
- Shadow Sneak

I copied the Trick Room/Explosion idea from some RMT, but everything else was thought of by me. This set right here is the best TR lead I've ever used. I use TR on the first turn, and after that the opposing Pokemon either gets hit by a max-attack Explosion, or I can Destiny Bond. In short, this set, 80% of the time, sets up TR and kills the opposing lead. The reason this set is so amazing for my team is probably the surprise factor. With Trick Room set up and the opposing lead gone, my Trick Room abusers are free to cause havoc for 3 turns. Basically, because of this set, I nearly always have the advantage over the enemy team after a couple turns. Gourgeist is so anti-meta right now its not even funny. It allows my team to walk all over opposing offense teams, which are the most popular right now. In short, because of the popularity of offensive teams, TR is emerging as a playstyle and this Gourgeist set is one of the best assets to TR. That's not to say that Gourgeist has a long list of flaws, which means that Gourgeist should move up to C+ and maybe B-, but no higher.

EDIT: I forgot to post a replay, will do next time I play.

 

[Ajwf]

Seriously, you're ranking the likes of Sylveon and P2 ahead of stalwarts like Skarmory, Quagsire, and Clefable? That isn't a subjective top 10, it's objectively incorrect and you can, should, and will be mocked for that ranking. If you can find me a single high end tournament player who believes P2 is a top 5 stall mon I'll post a video of myself eating my underwear. P2 is a niche mon used to check a select few Pokemon in a select few situations, and even at that it is shaky and inconsistent due to it's lack of Leftovers recovery and it's weakness to Knock Off and opposing status. Note that Chansey can get away with it more easily due to Natural Cure+the fact that the only things you'd switch it into that might carry Knock Off are the genies. Also no offense, but some your calcs are bullshit too. You're calculating Mega Gyarados unboosted, which is a scenario that rarely ever occurs, it can often get up to +2 with ease. All it takes is one flinch for a +1 Mega Gyara to win, a +2 Mega Gyara straight up 2HKOs P2 after SR. P2 does not check Landorus-I in any shape or form, Earth Power 2HKOs after SR 95% of the time, and P2 can't do anything about it because of it's lack of Leftovers. You don't get to just assume Pinsir is going to be at 50%, even the most retarded of Mega Pinsir players know to clear out rocks before bringing it in (unless they have a clear path to victory or need it for a revenge kill), +2 Return is a clean 2HKO. Most Keldeos run Specs nowadays which cleanly 2HKOs P2 with Secret Sword. And the worst one of them all, the Latios calc, uhh, sandstorm damage? Really? You're going to willingly help P2 get 2HKOd by Psyshock into Draco Meteor before you even get to move after SR?

For Mega Gyarados to +2? No. I'll give it +1 but I think you're overestimating +2. Should it be that easy, it'd be S-rank right now without any controversy. Even at +2, it can barely 2hko, meaning p2 deals about 60-75% damage off discharge, with that goodly chance for paralyze (come in +1, gyara goes +2 on first disharge, hits first waterfall on second discharge). If Gyara DOESN'T go +2, it doesn't break through.

The sandstorm damage on Lati was a mistake. When I calc'd mega chomp (earlier in the calcs), I had to manually remove the sandstorm for each subsequent poke because it kept coming back. It doesn't make a difference. However, even on a clean calc

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios can't 2hko. The minus 2 is too much so it has to drop it into that range. Which is tough given that every other one of Latios's attacks do max 28%, meaning P2 will probably recover every 2 turns (aka after taking 56% damage, overall netting 6%). And if you consider Spdef p2, the suggested spread (and one I've been running to supplement an ice weakness), you come to a point of impossibilities.

ooookaaayyyy. What is going on here? Did we seriously stoop down to the point where Porygon 2 is being named top 5 best stall mons in this gen? Really? Seriously? All those calcs are so twisted to the point where Mega Pinsir is assumed to be at 50% when it comes in and is against P2, Landorus-I only goes for Focus Blast on P2 when Earth Power almost always 2hkos with Sr or a little bit of chip damage and Keldeo doesn't have choice specs or life orb on its calcs...

If you're going to advocate for something to be moved up or down, please have good reason behind it. Support your claim with good replays and realistic scenarios otherwise it won't be taken seriously. Now I don't want to say that I'm against it moving up but when your support is questionable at best, it's difficult for to me seriously consider it.

You want replays to back this up, I'll back it up. In fact, if anyone wishes to challenge me based on stall mons, I will gladly listen and refute any logic they have. Just because a mon is used does not mean it is worth shit, as right now I'd be a half step in hell before using heatran given all the counters to the common VenuTran core. It's used because it's easy. Stall's objective isn't to use the most bulky mons, it is to use the most anti-meta ones. And as of right now, there can be no arguing that VenuTran ARE meta, diminishing their overall value. Venusaur-mega's rank is a clear showing of this. However, when you start seeing Grass Knot Bisharp and Greninja, HP grass manectric and Thundurus, you know the meta is against some mons of stall (IE this example, Quagsire). Knock off landorus carrying Psychic is a stall breaking mon through and through. Same with SubWisp Taunt Gengar. P2 is anti-meta enough to work, even vs knock off (as the loss hurts, but it does not break it).
P2 can check any of these, exception Bisharp (unless HP fight). Lando doesn't get the chance to spam a focus blast in if it goes knock off (ice beam OHKO) and obviously a Spdef spread is absorbing a focus blast:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 203-239 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While you might think those calcs are "twisted", I'd like to point out that P2 is a stall mon. Stall lives to have rocks up. For me, calc'ing rocks on ANYTHING with stall is acceptable given that this is stall's main weapon. I'm also not hailing p2 as a Mpinsir counter, nor did I ask for a rank Mpinsir counters have (aka A rank ranges). I asked for B- because he outperforms mons there (Rhyperior, Thundy-t (lol obsolete)... I could argue even Absol-mega) in importance to respective playstyles. As I said about three pages back, stall's viability is based on the meta. Even if you cut half those mons he counters/checks, I'd still be able to argue close to a C+ due to positioning of mons who counter/check less for stall (aka Rhyperior [seeing a trend], Celebi, Amoongus [who doesn't beat BD azum... so...], Sylveon (who is good for offensive pressure on stall and cleric, not countering :/ ).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94761468
P2 Walls off Raikou for the majority of the game as I fear HP Grass, but clutches to beat Pinsir-Mega when Skarm gets too weak. Also slays Landorus-T, Gives a toxic to Keldeo that drags it down (Hits it with discharge later, too). Walls off Sylveon and pressures out heal bells through toxic. Slays Skarmory. Basically, did everything. Maiden voyage, questionable plays made by me on occasion.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94836223
Turn 45 P2 grabs Protean and starts to sweep.

I'll add to this as well. These next two are just the first two matches I played today because I want to test out a semi-stall I'm working on in a bit. However, I'm sure I can dig up more replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-121247641
P2 acts as a scout here for Blissey and Tenta. I do misplay his tentacruel a bit, forgetting he carried knock off but it shows that P2 functions well enough without (I can't tell you what that Gren was carrying though). Against gren, up until 2 switches into crits, even without Eviolite, p2 was able to turn defensive structure into offensive presence when he stole Gren's ability.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-121252148
P2 almost got hero full mode but for TBolt para turn. You can see my p2 (Which is a Spdef) take a +3 Thundurus tbolt. It would've KO'd with Ice beam as well. Early game, I again use P2 as a scout and a counter Deo-S lead. Magic coat is enough of a deterrent that I'm able to stall multiple screen turns by threatening P2 bouncing his taunt or rocks.

tl;dr I'm ready to defend that against anyone who wants to challenge my statement. Please understand that the standard VenuTran core is obsolete, everyone realizes that. The mons on it aren't as good as you think, though Venu is still a monster. P2 deserves a B- rank, and if you want me to find more replays, shoot me a message on showdown (AjTheEpic, OU Room) and I'll demonstrate P2's power with that exact team.

 

[Amaan]

Meh, I personally don't have a problem with the duck going up to C+, it wouldn't be the worst mon ranked there (yes Blastoise and Goodra I'm looking at you two).

One rather controversial change I'm thinking of is perhaps moving Latios to A+. Yeah we all know the story: Pursuit bait... except that unlike it's sister, Latios can actually maneuver around this if you're careful. Bisharp can be OHKOd by HP Fighting on the switch-in, Tyranitar doesn't exactly enjoy HP Fighting either, with non Scarf variants going down to a 2HKO as well. Aegislash is more problematic, but the standard Lefties Crumblers wont OHKO with Pursuit if Latios is at full HP (via Roost), you could even bs your way to victory with Earthquake along with careful prediction around Pursuit vs Shadow Ball (don't rely on this though). Now lets look at all the things it can do, it's probably the best Defog user in OU, it can sustain itself with reliable recovery, it's versatile and relevant offensively, it's got otherwise great defensive typing ignoring that nasty Pursuit weakness. This makes it a great choice for HO, bulky offense, and balanced alike (the sister is generally superior for stall). Now lets look at the myriad of Pokemon it counters/checks: Zard Y, Tanky Zard X, Venusaur, Manectric, Zapdos, R-W, non-Scarf Cube, non-Scarf Garchomp, Breloom, Thundurus, Keldeo, non-Knock Off Landorus (the Knock Off version is pretty much uncounterable anyway). Honestly, I feel this thing brings more to the table than some of the current A+ ranks, pretty much the only thing that's holding it back from the spot is that one evil move. But like I said, Latios can actually play around that problem with a bit of support, which is diagnostic of most A+ mons. In a similar vein, if Latios does get moved up, I'd consider restoring Latias' A ranking. This thing was overrated a few months ago, but it's gotten to the point where it's so overrated that it's now underrated. It also allows you to wipe off a good chunk of your threatlist, and Healing Wish is an absolute gift for offensive teams should you choose to run it (and helps you avoid the Pursuit business altogether). I don't feel as strongly about Latias as I do with Latios, and am fine with it remaining A-, but it just looks awkward placed alongside one-trick ponies like Mandibuzz and Manaphy.

This might just be my personal preference, but I feel that one Pokemon stands out among the motley crew of suckage/inconsistency/outclassed that is C+: I would strongly consider moving Krookodile to B-. It just does really well against some of the higher ranked mons, especially against Deosharp HO teams. It's surprisingly good at forcing switches and can consistently set up Stealth Rock. It has Taunt and Knock Off to pressure Deoxys-D. It doesn't give the slightest fuck about boosting Bisharp's attack since +1 Iron Head fails to 2HKO with Black Glasses (Deoxys-D has immense difficulty getting up SR against Krook), and Life Orb will kill itself after Krookodile EQs. If you're paranoid you can also sacrifice some bulk to Speed creep Bisharp. Aegislash gets destroyed: after Intimidate, Sacred Sword has trouble 4HKOing, only Flash Cannon variants have any hope of winning. It can check Zard-X thanks to Intimidate, as Adamant 252 Atk Dragon Claw fails to 2HKO, and should Zard-X opt to Flare Blitz, it'll kill itself with recoil after EQ. Non-Air Balloon Excadrill can also be shut down in a similar manner. If you have someone else carrying SR, you could fit on a move like Stone Edge or Toxic to check a Talonflame, Garchomp, or Dragonite. Also somewhere in there, a Choice Scarf set is viable (provided you go with Intimidate over Moxie to deal with prioirty) even though there doesn't seem to be one on the analysis. This lets you revenge kill the likes of Adamant DD Zard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Ttar, Thundurus, Latios etc, although I personally still prefer the support set simply because of how much it disrupts Deosharp.

I 2nd Latios for A+, despite being pursuit bait, he still has ways of getting past Bisharp and Ttar with HP fighting. Latios seems to be the go to defogger of the tier. Life Orb Draco Meteor hits like a truck, dealing serious damage to anything that switches in. He gives so many common things like the Zards and Keldeo problems. His fanastic speed and reliable recovery are also great assets for a mon. Add in fairly decent bulk and a usable move pool, you have yourself a min more worthy of A+ then some mons already in it, such as Greninja. A choice scarf set is also viable. Being able to revenge kill many setup sweepers even after getting a speed boost, such as offensive Zard X.

Nominating Infernape for B-

The usage stats keep coming every month, and this thing refuses to leave OU. And I think it's for a good reason. It fits a good niche on offensive teams, being a mixed wallbreaker that it's hard to switch into, a fire attacker that doesn't mind rocks (Heatran can do that, though it's not that offensive), and a fighting attacker who doesn't care about burn (Conk can do that too, but again, not really good on offense). 104/104/108 offensive stats are pretty respectable after you give it a Life Orb. While it's never a nightmare to fight against, it's always a dangerous threat, who can work both as a wallbreaker or a late game cleaner if the team needs it.

With the Birdspam going down, and the rise of Deosharp, this pokemon is becoming more viable. It counters Bisharp if it has Mach Punch, or at least checks it without it. In a way, it functions as a weaker Keldeo. And while it faces a lot of competition from Keldeo, it has a different typing, so it can still be good.

I think C is underselling it. I'd put it somewhere on the B ranks.

What do people not understand about the word no?

Infernape is one of the most pathetic Pokemon granted OU status since Electivire and SuckDusknoir. People have tried to being up Infernape before. It never ended well. Infernape is only used because low level players like using things that look cool and were good two generations ago. Infernape and Goodra posts about them moving up should all be mocked to hell and even beyond.

Just because a Pokemon is put in OU doesn't mean it's very viable.

 

[Amaan]

I mean, I said this literal months ago but no avail. P2 is the most underrated wall and probably ranks in the top 5. The only issue being the redundant typing with chansey, who is probably number 2.

(Imo the top 10: MVenu 1, Chansey 2, Sylveon 3, Skarmory 4, P2 5, Heatran 6, Chesnuaght 7, Quag 8 (too many bulk flaws), CharX 9, Clef 10).

Of course that's a subjective 10, but Venu/Chansey are obvious locks. Sylveon is the only other cleric I'd consider unless I was insanely weak to some setup sweeper Clef handled. Skarm takes Pinsir, which a few months ago would've made him #2 but meh. P2 does everything listed above. Second most versatility on the list, behind MVenu. Heatran is falling because a lot of EQ exists for Aegi and ZardX. Ches is rising because it resists that + gets TTar, Gyara mega and the more ferocious bulky DDancers not named ZardX. Quag obviously deserves mention, has bulk issues. CharX is underused, but is rock weak, sacrifices Venu and faces competition from heatran (doesn't handle mawile as well). Lastly... Clef is actually shit, but is a necessary evil for that unaware vs Manaphy sets. Better semi-stall CM Unaware but whatever works.
tl;dr, P2's easy top 5 best stall mons we can use... I'd like to see it represented as such. Obviously Zard, Heatran, Clef have uses outside of stall but I'd argue P2 could easily be as invaluable.

Your list is awful, like really, really, really, really, really bad. Having Sylveon ahead of Heatran and Skarmory makes me want to shoot myself. Sylveon is overrated, outclassed, and never be used without a good reason. Sylveon ahead of Clefable not only damages your credibility but is a factual error. Maybe if you switched Clefable and Sylveon this list might not blow as much dick but will still blow a couple. P2 even being placed somewhere near Quagsire would make me sick, but you have it 3 spots ahead. Mega Venusaur is definitely not No. 1 as it suffers 4MSS and faces comp from Zard X and Amooguss. Idk if you are suffering from a mental issue. But having a C+ pokemon like P2 and animate pieces of shit like Sylveon over S tiers like Zard X and stall staples like Quagsire? Even Kanye West can figure that out! Clefable at ten will probably be the worst thing I've seen today, maybe move it up 7-8 spots?

TL;DR Sylveon and P2 over Clefable, Skarm, Zard X, Heatran is a sign of retardation. Why is Sylveon / P2 even on this list?

 

[Durant]

What do people not understand about the word no?

Infernape is one of the most pathetic Pokemon granted OU status since Electivire and SuckDusknoir. People have tried to being up Infernape before. It never ended well.

Just because a Pokemon is put in OU doesn't mean it's very viable.

You didn't even talk about the things that he mentioned that should make Infernape B-, you just said lol Dusknoir, lol Electavire and mentioned it sucked because it is OU which isn't a good reason. I agree with Infernape moving up a rank since it main checks and counters are seeing less usage ( Rotom Wash, Talonflame etc ). However even with a Life Orb Infernape can't really break through anything that has some bulk. Infernape just isn't as good of a wallbreaker as something like let's say Terrakion. Moving it to B- may be too high but C+ is alright for him.

 

[Amaan]

You didn't even talk about the things that he mentioned that should make Infernape B-, you just said lol Dusknoir, lol Electavire and mentioned it sucked because it is OU which isn't a good reason. I agree with Infernape moving up a rank since it main checks and counters are seeing less usage ( Rotom Wash, Talonflame etc ). However even with a Life Orb Infernape can't really break through anything that has some bulk. Infernape just isn't as good of a wallbreaker as something like let's say Terrakion. Moving it to B- may be too high but C+ is alright for him.

Fine? You want reasons why?

-Infernape makes Lucario look bulky
-Infernape is outclassed in every single one of his niches
-Infernape doesn't hit very hard.
-Inferape is not a very good mixed wall breaker
-Usage stats are a pretty bad argument. (If not 1760)
-There is next to no reason to use Infernape over Keldeo.

Infernape is also checked by super common mons like Deo-S and Azumarrill

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Fine? You want reasons why?

-Infernape makes Lucario look bulky

76/71/71 > 70/70/70
do some reasearch if you are going to say something is shit

 

[Amaan]

76/71/71 > 70/70/70
do some reasearch if you are going to say something is shit

Fighting/Steel > Fighting/Fire

*research

 

[NoahStar]

Fighting/Steel > Fighting/Fire

Steel/Fighting isn't the defensive typing it used to be. It doesn't resist a single popular offensive typing that Fire/Fighting doesn't (they both resist Ice). Offensively, Fire/Fighting is better than Steel/Fighting as the only thing you're hitting with that STAB steel are the Fairies that kill both Lucario and Infernape anyway.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Fighting/Steel > Fighting/Fire

then infernape has a shittier type, not shittier bulk. There is a difference between the two.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Fine? You want reasons why?

-Infernape makes Lucario look bulky
-Infernape is outclassed in every single one of his niches
-Infernape doesn't hit very hard.
-Inferape is not a very good mixed wall breaker
-Usage stats are a pretty bad argument. (If not 1760)
-There is next to no reason to use Infernape over Keldeo.

Infernape is also checked by super common mons like Deo-S and Azumarrill

But it's OU in 1760 too. Your low level player argument doesn't work, there are enough people using it on the higher ladder to make it OU.

And why is that? Because the high ladder players are bad? Or because Infernape is pretty viable in the metagame without being too niche?