Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[epicdrill]

To those saying Infernape is viable in XY OU: if it's viable, then why did it get exactly 0% usage in XY OU SPL battles?

 

[New World Order]

For Mega Gyarados to +2? No. I'll give it +1 but I think you're overestimating +2. Should it be that easy, it'd be S-rank right now without any controversy. Even at +2, it can barely 2hko, meaning p2 deals about 60-75% damage off discharge, with that goodly chance for paralyze (come in +1, gyara goes +2 on first disharge, hits first waterfall on second discharge). If Gyara DOESN'T go +2, it doesn't break through.

The sandstorm damage on Lati was a mistake. When I calc'd mega chomp (earlier in the calcs), I had to manually remove the sandstorm for each subsequent poke because it kept coming back. It doesn't make a difference. However, even on a clean calc

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 192-227 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios can't 2hko. The minus 2 is too much so it has to drop it into that range. Which is tough given that every other one of Latios's attacks do max 28%, meaning P2 will probably recover every 2 turns (aka after taking 56% damage, overall netting 6%). And if you consider Spdef p2, the suggested spread (and one I've been running to supplement an ice weakness), you come to a point of impossibilities.

In what dimension does Discharge deal 75% damage, did you start running Download+Specs all the sudden?
0 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 96-114 (28.9 - 34.3%), with something that weak, Gyarados can easily find itself at +2 against P2, once on the switch in and once again as P2 barely harasses it with Discharge. Then if P2 uses Discharge again instead of Recover, it gets 2HKOd, if P2 does Recover, flinch hax will take it out eventually anyway.

And for the umpteenth time, P2 DOES NOT HAVE PASSIVE RECOVERY, your calcs absolutely must factor in entry hazard damage every time. With even the slightest bit of prior damage, Psyshock+DM is a 2HKO, that's not something you can rely on to check it. You also conveniently forget that Latios often carry HP Fighting nowadays, and HP Fighting+Meteor will 2HKO with Rocks up as well.

You want replays to back this up, I'll back it up. In fact, if anyone wishes to challenge me based on stall mons, I will gladly listen and refute any logic they have. Just because a mon is used does not mean it is worth shit, as right now I'd be a half step in hell before using heatran given all the counters to the common VenuTran core. It's used because it's easy. Stall's objective isn't to use the most bulky mons, it is to use the most anti-meta ones. And as of right now, there can be no arguing that VenuTran ARE meta, diminishing their overall value. Venusaur-mega's rank is a clear showing of this. However, when you start seeing Grass Knot Bisharp and Greninja, HP grass manectric and Thundurus, you know the meta is against some mons of stall (IE this example, Quagsire). Knock off landorus carrying Psychic is a stall breaking mon through and through. Same with SubWisp Taunt Gengar. P2 is anti-meta enough to work, even vs knock off (as the loss hurts, but it does not break it).
P2 can check any of these, exception Bisharp (unless HP fight). Lando doesn't get the chance to spam a focus blast in if it goes knock off (ice beam OHKO) and obviously a Spdef spread is absorbing a focus blast:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 203-239 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While you might think those calcs are "twisted", I'd like to point out that P2 is a stall mon. Stall lives to have rocks up. For me, calc'ing rocks on ANYTHING with stall is acceptable given that this is stall's main weapon. I'm also not hailing p2 as a Mpinsir counter, nor did I ask for a rank Mpinsir counters have (aka A rank ranges). I asked for B- because he outperforms mons there (Rhyperior, Thundy-t (lol obsolete)... I could argue even Absol-mega) in importance to respective playstyles. As I said about three pages back, stall's viability is based on the meta. Even if you cut half those mons he counters/checks, I'd still be able to argue close to a C+ due to positioning of mons who counter/check less for stall (aka Rhyperior [seeing a trend], Celebi, Amoongus [who doesn't beat BD azum... so...], Sylveon (who is good for offensive pressure on stall and cleric, not countering :/ ).

Just because a mon is used doesn't mean it is worth shit (ie Infernape), in a similar vein, just because a mon isn't used doesn't mean it's good (ie Porygon2). How is P2 anti-meta when the only real top end threats in can check are Thundurus, Garchomp, and Greninja, and is a shaky check at that. That Landorus-I calc still a 2HKO in both scenarios. Knock Off removes Eviolite, making 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 304-359 (81.2 - 95.9%), hell Failblast is a clean albeit inaccurate 2HKO anyway. Since no Landorus player will ever switch Landorus into P2, it will almost always be the other way around. In other words, P2 dies before it even gets to move either 70% of the time or 49% of the time. It's not even a soft check regardless of the EVs.

How is assuming you always have SR up an acceptable calculation? Offensive teams have little difficulty removing it since very few members of stall can prevent Excadrill and Latios from their constant "spin and run".

I'll add to this as well. These next two are just the first two matches I played today because I want to test out a semi-stall I'm working on in a bit. However, I'm sure I can dig up more replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-121247641
P2 acts as a scout here for Blissey and Tenta. I do misplay his tentacruel a bit, forgetting he carried knock off but it shows that P2 functions well enough without (I can't tell you what that Gren was carrying though). Against gren, up until 2 switches into crits, even without Eviolite, p2 was able to turn defensive structure into offensive presence when he stole Gren's ability.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-121252148
P2 almost got hero full mode but for TBolt para turn. You can see my p2 (Which is a Spdef) take a +3 Thundurus tbolt. It would've KO'd with Ice beam as well. Early game, I again use P2 as a scout and a counter Deo-S lead. Magic coat is enough of a deterrent that I'm able to stall multiple screen turns by threatening P2 bouncing his taunt or rocks.

tl;dr I'm ready to defend that against anyone who wants to challenge my statement. Please understand that the standard VenuTran core is obsolete, everyone realizes that. The mons on it aren't as good as you think, though Venu is still a monster. P2 deserves a B- rank, and if you want me to find more replays, shoot me a message on showdown (AjTheEpic, OU Room) and I'll demonstrate P2's power with that exact team.

I challenge you to ask any tournament player what's more obsolete, Venutran or P2?

 

[Ajwf]

Your list is awful, like really, really, really, really, really bad. Having Sylveon ahead of Heatran and Skarmory makes me want to shoot myself. Sylveon is overrated, outclassed, and never be used without a good reason. Sylveon ahead of Clefable not only damages your credibility but is a factual error. Maybe if you switched Clefable and Sylveon this list might not blow as much dick but will still blow a couple. P2 even being placed somewhere near Quagsire would make me sick, but you have it 3 spots ahead. Mega Venusaur is definitely not No. 1 as it suffers 4MSS and faces comp from Zard X and Amooguss. Idk if you are suffering from a mental issue. But having a C+ pokemon like P2 and animate pieces of shit like Sylveon over S tiers like Zard X and stall staples like Quagsire? Even Kanye West can figure that out! Clefable at ten will probably be the worst thing I've seen today, maybe move it up 7-8 spots?

TL;DR Sylveon and P2 over Clefable, Skarm, Zard X, Heatran is a sign of retardation. Why is Sylveon / P2 even on this list?

May I ask you if you have any experience playing stall? Because I went and used bold on a line in this post that makes me note you've never played stall.

Sylveon is, in any circumstance outside of weakness policy dragonite and rain dance manaphy, a better option (there are a few other niche boosters clefable stops better [NP celebi?], but none I can think of that are worth preparing for). Here's the issue, practice is not paper and Clefable cannot pass wishes well. Why? On paper, it WOULD appear clefable is better however this is false. Clefable is "Mediocre" in every statistical category: physical Bulk, special bulk and attack. Sylveon, however, is "exceptional (in terms of stall) in two (Attack, Special bulk) and "below average" in one (Physical bulk). Because of this, as long as you aren't facing a boosting threat clefable could take (Which btw is not crocune or MG clefable because clefable loses in the long run without CM of its own), Sylveon has more times it can get away with a wish and not take damage. This is truly an exceptional thing that SYLVEON (not clefable, let's make sure we get the point) can force switches with Hyper voice and obnoxious special defense (allowing physical defensive investment and still having good all around bulk).

tl;dr Clefable is a cleric used only if you have a boosting threat needing walled you didn't cover earlier.

Now for the rest. ZardX CAN beat Quagsire. Adamant Zard in particular, and as of the last usage stat, of the roughly 43% of 100% spreads shown, 50% (equating to 20% of the whole) were adamant. Meaning that of all ZardX's, roughly HALF will be adamant. Scary thought, eh? That's 50% of the ZardX quagsire SHOULD counter that he loses to (granted 5.9% outrage, double to about 12% for the usage in total on ZardX). Regardless, toting quag as a counter is not a good idea. Many of quag's "Counters" (aka Bisharp was the first reason it was run) will run grass moves now (thanks Alexwolf...). Quagsire could even drop a rank right now, as the meta is overprepared for him.

ZardX is good, it really is. There's no denying on stall it is brilliant. However, it is second best mega (arguably third, Aggron just is a massive dick to get past). And being such a long second to Venusaur... means that only few times IS it going to see use (or should it see use, to be honest, Venu major one up's on incoming rock damage). The niche is has it has burn support and ZardY countering. That's niche, whereas Venu is a cornerstone. Unlike many other situations where mega opportunity cost is bullshit, stall literally does have it when you look at Venu who does completely outclass just about everything stall can use.

I'll explain this further if you want, but in the stall thread. Just post there and I'll respond.

In what dimension does Discharge deal 75% damage, did you start running Download+Specs all the sudden?
0 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 96-114 (28.9 - 34.3%), with something that weak, Gyarados can easily find itself at +2 against P2, once on the switch in and once again as P2 barely harasses it with Discharge. Then if P2 uses Discharge again instead of Recover, it gets 2HKOd, if P2 does Recover, flinch hax will take it out eventually anyway.

And for the umpteenth time, P2 DOES NOT HAVE PASSIVE RECOVERY, your calcs absolutely must factor in entry hazard damage every time. With even the slightest bit of prior damage, Psyshock+DM is a 2HKO, that's not something you can rely on to check it. You also conveniently forget that Latios often carry HP Fighting nowadays, and HP Fighting+Meteor will 2HKO with Rocks up as well.


Just because a mon is used doesn't mean it is worth shit (ie Infernape), in a similar vein, just because a mon isn't used doesn't mean it's good (ie Porygon2). How is P2 anti-meta when the only real top end threats in can check are Thundurus, Garchomp, and Greninja, and is a shaky check at that. That Landorus-I calc still a 2HKO in both scenarios. Knock Off removes Eviolite, making 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 304-359 (81.2 - 95.9%), hell Failblast is a clean albeit inaccurate 2HKO anyway. Since no Landorus player will ever switch Landorus into P2, it will almost always be the other way around. In other words, P2 dies before it even gets to move either 70% of the time or 49% of the time. It's not even a soft check regardless of the EVs.

How is assuming you always have SR up an acceptable calculation? Offensive teams have little difficulty removing it since very few members of stall can prevent Excadrill and Latios from their constant "spin and run".


I challenge you to ask any tournament player what's more obsolete, Venutran or P2?

So... "A little Passive damage" now constitutes full spikes [25]+rocks [12]+toxic [6] (1 turn), or 3 rock switches with no recover? HP fight ISN'T common by any stretch of the mind but:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 120-143 (32 - 38.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO

p. defensive first, then specially. So, you trade 10% more damage (first) and less damage (second, psyshock better) and get? LO stalled?

This landorus thing is funny as hell. You admit p2 would check. Then, you say lando is going to KNOCK OFF and THEN focus blast. Wait. How does it survive the ice beam (which, uninvested, even without the sheer force he traces, is a KO)? It can't switch out after knock off, it's dead. The only feasible way is if P2 is coming in one +2 lando (+1 lando still risks KO'd by Sheer Force p2 spdef p2, can't ko back until +2. However it can ko pdefensive p2 if it hits) and then it'd be better off hoping focus blast hits for the ohko.

So I don't see it. How is it getting a knock off and focus blast? Obviously CM and Knock off don't go on the same set.

Edit: Those Top Tier threats you mentioned, p2 counters. Don't sell them as checks. P2 "Checks" knock off Lando-t (counters non-knock off). P2 can "check" variants of aegi (even sacred sword crumbler aegi can slowly be killed by physically defensive, esp after discharge gets an inevitable para). P2 "counters" Gliscor. I mean, please don't write this off as a check.

 

[jbtc10]

Venu is a cornerstone. Unlike many other situations where mega opportunity cost is bullshit, stall literally does have it when you look at Venu who does completely outclass just about everything stall can use.

Mega Venusaur doesn't even outclass its direct competitor, Amoongus, who in fact actually has quite a lot of useful pros over Venusaur including Regenerator which can greatly increase its lifespan, ability to repeatedly counter things by being at full health and usefulness against things like VoltTurn, ability to hold an item such as Black Sludge, a 100% accurate sleep move and access to Clear Smog and Foul Play. Thick fat doesn't even work against some things it needs to either, like Kyurem-B. Venu is good, but you're really over-exaggerating how much stall needs it, because it doesn't actually even need it at all. Chansey is number 1, because nothing else comes close to doing what it does (don't say Blissey, it's the same thing but worse except for its ability to hold a Shed Shell).

 

[New World Order]

May I ask you if you have any experience playing stall? Because I went and used bold on a line in this post that makes me note you've never played stall.

Sylveon is, in any circumstance outside of weakness policy dragonite and rain dance manaphy, a better option (there are a few other niche boosters clefable stops better [NP celebi?], but none I can think of that are worth preparing for). Here's the issue, practice is not paper and Clefable cannot pass wishes well. Why? On paper, it WOULD appear clefable is better however this is false. Clefable is "Mediocre" in every statistical category: physical Bulk, special bulk and attack. Sylveon, however, is "exceptional (in terms of stall) in two (Attack, Special bulk) and "below average" in one (Physical bulk). Because of this, as long as you aren't facing a boosting threat clefable could take (Which btw is not crocune or MG clefable because clefable loses in the long run without CM of its own), Sylveon has more times it can get away with a wish and not take damage. This is truly an exceptional thing that SYLVEON (not clefable, let's make sure we get the point) can force switches with Hyper voice and obnoxious special defense (allowing physical defensive investment and still having good all around bulk).

tl;dr Clefable is a cleric used only if you have a boosting threat needing walled you didn't cover earlier.

Now for the rest. ZardX CAN beat Quagsire. Adamant Zard in particular, and as of the last usage stat, of the roughly 43% of 100% spreads shown, 50% (equating to 20% of the whole) were adamant. Meaning that of all ZardX's, roughly HALF will be adamant. Scary thought, eh? That's 50% of the ZardX quagsire SHOULD counter that he loses to (granted 5.9% outrage, double to about 12% for the usage in total on ZardX). Regardless, toting quag as a counter is not a good idea. Many of quag's "Counters" (aka Bisharp was the first reason it was run) will run grass moves now (thanks Alexwolf...). Quagsire could even drop a rank right now, as the meta is overprepared for him.

ZardX is good, it really is. There's no denying on stall it is brilliant. However, it is second best mega (arguably third, Aggron just is a massive dick to get past). And being such a long second to Venusaur... means that only few times IS it going to see use (or should it see use, to be honest, Venu major one up's on incoming rock damage). The niche is has it has burn support and ZardY countering. That's niche, whereas Venu is a cornerstone. Unlike many other situations where mega opportunity cost is bullshit, stall literally does have it when you look at Venu who does completely outclass just about everything stall can use.

I'll explain this further if you want, but in the stall thread. Just post there and I'll respond.

So how exactly does Venusaur outclass Zard X on stall? They don't even check the same things. Most Zard X stall teams will carry an Amoonguss for Keldeo, Azumarill and friends. Zard X's Will-o-Wisp immunity allows it to deal with stallbreakers like Gengar, and unlike most stall mons, Zard-X is a legitimate threat offensively. Venusaur is a better choice than Zard X on stall in a vacuum, but Zard X can actually perform better depending on how well you build your team.

Also you do realize Clefable can check physical DD/SD Dragons such as Dragonite and Garchomp right? Something Sylveon can't even hope to accomplish. That physical bulk is very relevant. Clefable also fares much better against Latios and non-Iron Head Cube, who are much more likely to 2HKO Sylveon. A couple of less common Pokes such as Mega Medicham/Mega Heracross would also much rather face Sylveon. Clefable can also take on NP Thundurus and the odd Suicune or Volcarona which Sylveon gets eaten alive by. The only special attackers Sylveon is more reliable than Clefable against are Greninja and Keldeo Any offensive advantage Sylveon has in terms of stats, Clefable answers in return with Calm Mind. The only thing Sylveon has over Clefable is Baton Pass and the fact that it can go through Substitute. But then again you think Porygon2 is a better stall mon than Quagsire so I'm probably just talking to a brick wall at this point.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Any offensive advantage Sylveon has in terms of stats, Clefable answers in return with Calm Mind.

you mean the move sylveon also gets?

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 169-199 (44 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO

sylveon should be physically defensive btw

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

"can't even hope to accomplish"

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Fine? You want reasons why?

-Infernape makes Lucario look bulky
Infernape has slightly higher defenses, not that it really matters anyway.
-Infernape is outclassed in every single one of his niches
Infernape isn't outclassed by anything, at least when talking about its mixed set. Infernape is pretty fast and can get past some of its counters with a little bit of tweaking (LO TPunch for Mega Charizard Y and weakened Azumarill, HP Ice for weakened Dragonite, Gliscor, Landorus-T and (Mega) Garchomp, Grass Knot for Quag). Infernape is also very versatile, it can run SD, NP, mixed, lead or Choice Band.
-Infernape doesn't hit very hard.
True
-Inferape is not a very good mixed wall breaker
Infernape is good, it's just that the metagame is hostile to it.
-Usage stats are a pretty bad argument. (If not 1760)
True
-There is next to no reason to use Infernape over Keldeo.
Keldeo doesn't resist Ferro's Power Whip, is weak to Fairy-type attacks (Infernape can at least take a Moonblast from Clefable or something) doesn't have priority and has a crappy movepool.

Infernape is also checked by super common mons like Deo-S and Azumarrill

With that said, keep Infernape C rank. It's a good Pokemon, but sadly the metagame really hates it. Deoxys-S, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir and Azumarill all laugh at Mach Punch and revenge kill it easily. It also has 4MSS: it wishes it could run Overheat / Close Combat / Mach Punch / ThunderPunch / HP Ice / Grass Knot. That means many walls such as Quagdire and Gliscor laugh at it if Infernape doesn't have the proper coverage move. Lastly, Infernape is set up on by Mega Gyarados, Dragonite (with multiscale intact), Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, Latias and many more.

Also, thoughts on moving Weavile to B- and Jirachi to C?

Bringing up Weavile and Jirachi again

Weavile: C+ ---------> B-/B
Jirachi: C- -----------> C/C+

1. Weavile

Weavile @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

Weavile is the fastest Knock Off user with STAB in the game. Knock Off is a huge improvement for Weavile, since it no longer has to rely on the weak night slash. Weavile is capable of revenge killing a large portion of the S and A rank, respectively. Do note that Weavile can't switch into these monsters, however, which is one of the reasons it is C+ right now.

Aegislash:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (105.7 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While Weavile has to watch out for King's Shield, it can OHKO even Aegislash with Knock Off, so it must rely on prediction to beat it. One wrong prediction, however, and Weavile dies to Sacred Sword. COULD WIN, COULD LOSE

Charizard (Mega-X)

Can KO with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock.

Deoxys-D
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Weavile prevents Deoxys-D from setting up more than one layer of hazards, and can also OHKO Bisharp with Low Kick. WIN

Deoxys-S

Weavile wins if Deoxys-S doesn't have Superpower.

Landorus

Ice Punch for the kill. WIN

Thundurus

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Weavile wins 81.3% of the time or eats a Thunder Wave. If it knows it won't be that useful for the rest of the match, however, Weavile can just OHKO with Ice Punch.

A+ Rank
Azumarill

no.

Bisharp

Resists Sucker Punch and can KO with Low Kick.

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Can KO with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock.

Clefable

Weavile can 2HKO with Ice Punch, but loses to offensive Clefable.

Excadrill

Excadrill takes 81%-96% from Knock Off, so while it usually wins against Weavile, it will take a huge amount of damage in the process.

Garchomp

One Ice Punch/Ice Shard and Chomp is dead.

Greninja
Greninja usually wins against Weavile thanks to its low weight, but if it KOed something with Dark Pulse or Ice Beam previously, Weavile beats it with Low Kick or Knock Off.

Gyarados (Mega)
Although Jolly Mega Gyarados usually wins if it switches in directly on weavile, this is not the case for Mega Gyarados who don't invest fully in speed.

Keldeo
no. It still dislikes Knock Off.

Mawile (Mega)
no.

Pinsir (Mega)
Ice Shard goes before Quick Attack, so Weavile usually wins.

Scizor (Mega)
lol

Talonflame
Weavile loses against Talonflame, but it should be noted that Ice Shard can force Talonflame to die from recoil damage.

Tyranitar (Mega)

Low Kick ftw.

A Rank

Dragonite

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.2 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Ice Punch can OHKO Dragonite even if Multiscale is active. Also, Ice Shard can remove any Dragonite from play if Stealth Rock is up.

Ferrothorn
Hates Knock Off and Low Kick, nevertheless it wins against Weavile with Gyro Ball.

Gengar
Knock Off OHKOes.

Heatran
Weavile can sometimes take a Lava Plume from a specially defensive Heatran and 2HKO with Low Kick. Offensive Heatran is flat-out OHKOed.

Hippowdon
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 198-234 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Things get ugly here. Hippowdon deals a large amount of damage with EQ and usually avoids the 2HKO from Ice Punch. Stealth Rock allows Weavile to beat it, though. Specially defensive Hippo loses.

Kyurem-B

Low Kick OHKOes after Stealth Rock damage.

Landorus-T

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 437-520 (114.3 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice Punch is a clean OHKO even with Intimidate.

Latios
Weak to both its STABs.

Terrakion
Non-Choice Scarf variants lose to Low Kick.

Tyranitar
Weavile OHKOes with Low Kick.

Venusaur (Mega)
Mega Venu actually wins since it has insane bulk and Thick Fat, so Ice Punch doesn't even 2HKO.

A- Rank
Chansey
Weavile can render it useless with Knock Off and then KO with Low Kick.

Latias
Dies to Knock Off.

Mamoswine
Focus Sash Mamoswine wins with Superpower; otherwise, loses to Low Kick.

Manaphy
Weavile usually loses against Manaphy since it can't 2HKO, while Manaphy can either 2HKO back or set up.

Mandibuzz
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz has retarded physical bulk, but Stealth Rock allows Weavile to 2HKO it no problem. Weavile does hate Foul Play.

Rotom-W
Takes a lot of damage from Knock Off, can't KO back with Hydro Pump. It can burn it, though.

Skarmory
no.

Zapdos
KOed by Ice Punch.

As for Rachi, besides what I said here:

Yeah, I know how the mighty have fallen. However, I don't think Rachi is hopeless. Remember it still has an absolutely enormous movepool and can still run a few sets without being outclassed (Scarf, Wish Maker, paraflinch). It just became a version of Mew with Serene Grace and a Steel- typing. Although Jirachi gained two weaknesses, it also received a resist to a common type (Fairy). Speaking of fairy-types, Jirachi can be a great help to mega zard x or garchomp (in fact, most dragon-types), since it beats Azumarill with ThunderPunch (or flinches it to death with iron head) and usually wins against most fairies (only mawile can beat it, but even then it has to watch out for Fire Punch). The Wish Maker set has a few advantages over chansey: offensive presence, can flinchax in a pinch and can spread status more reliably imo. The paraflinch set is somewhat outclassed by Togekiss, but Rachi is not weak to SR, can still annoy opponents (but not make them punch their monitor or throwing their laptop, unless you're fighting an idiot) and can beat Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Fire Punch.

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature

- Doom Desire
- Flash Cannon / Psyshock
- Psyshock / Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice

Specs Doom Desire Jirachi completely counters full Baton Pass chains, since it OHKOes Mr.Mime, Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon and doesn't care about any special defense boosts earlygame. If your Baton Pass team can't set up a Substitute, YOU LOSE. That alone is in my opinion enough to push it to C rank.

 

[QuickBH]

With that said, keep Infernape C rank. It's a good Pokemon, but sadly the metagame really hates it. Deoxys-S, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir and Azumarill all laugh at Mach Punch and revenge kill it easily. It also has 4MSS: it wishes it could run Overheat / Close Combat / Mach Punch / ThunderPunch / HP Ice / Grass Knot. That means many walls such as Quagdire and Gliscor laugh at it if Infernape doesn't have the proper coverage move. Lastly, Infernape is set up on by Mega Gyarados, Dragonite (with multiscale intact), Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, Latias and many more.

Also, thoughts on moving Weavile to B- and Jirachi to C?

Jirachi is suck meta and mechanics have all been against it don't want to go into detail.

Infernape doesn't run overheat btw it runs fire blast allowing it to actually check Gliscor and Lando-T pretty fine as well as well as actually doing special damage after said move lol. Also Infernape doesn't have hard MSS syndrome since it really either has the option to pick off Bisharp mega Gyara and stuff or beat Hippowdon stall and Quagsire since hp ice is just for like d-Nite with fire blast.

 

[Gary]

Okay I'm getting tired of this P2 discussion. These arguments are just going back and forth and nothing is being accomplished because it's obvious no one is going to be able to convince the other. In the next update Pory 2 could potentially move to C+, but nothing more. It's a pretty cool defensive Pokemon with the ability to check certain things better because of Trace, but other than that I really don't see a reason to use it over other Pokes like Chansey on stall. If P2 was truly a top 5 stall mon, don't you think we would have seen it being used a lot more frequently in tour, SPL, and in the upper ladder? It's not like it's some magical Pokemon that we just haven't discovered how to use yet. Much like a lot of defensive Pokemon it's pretty straightforward at what it does and it's still fucked by Landorus, so please don't say it isn't. It's decent, but there's a reason why you hardly ever see it in upper level play. I have seen it work well, but it's no where near as influential as most of the other standard asf cookie cutter stall mons like Quag, Clef, Zard-X, and Skarm.

Also quit the Infernape arguments too. C+ is probably a better fit for it tbh, because currently it's in the same rank as Mega Aboma and that thing is complete ass outside of Trick Room, as well as super niche Crobat and Moltres. Infernape is far from being completely useless, but it's also not comparable at all to Lucario who is actually a really underrated sweeper so stop comparing those two please. I'm going to try and be annoying by butting in every now and then because some of these arguments are really derailing the thread and a lot of you are getting to the point where you're becoming malicious, so stop that.

Please move onto discussing other things. Thanks.

 

[QuickBH]

Yeah c+ is a good upgrade, b- was absurd but I think the reasoning why people said it's so bad was not very well founded so I commented on that.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Jirachi is suck meta and mechanics have all been against it don't want to go into detail.

Yes but Jirachi counters BP teams with Doom Desire and can still paraflinch its way to victory. It still has an enormous movepool and a great typing (not amazing though now that it's weak to Knock Off, Pursuit and Shadow Ball)

 

[New World Order]

you mean the move sylveon also gets?

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 169-199 (44 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO

sylveon should be physically defensive btw

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

"can't even hope to accomplish"

Clefable is a far more reliable user of CM since it gets Softboiled as a recovery option rather than Wish. Calm Mind Sylveon only functions better than CM Clefable on Baton Pass teams that can hand it an Acid Armor boost to help it set up. You do not want to forego Protect for CM, and if you opt for CM over Heal Bell, then it no longer functions as a cleric does it?

I believe I specifically stated DD Dragonite.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%)
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%)

 

[QuickBH]

Yes but Jirachi counters BP teams with Doom Desire and can still paraflinch its way to victory. It still has an enormous movepool and a great typing (not amazing though now that it's weak to Knock Off, Pursuit and Shadow Ball)

It's useful against one team and bad otherwise wouldn't make it past D rank. Also the t-wave nerfs as well as not being able to actually reliably tank or kill anything makes it not very good. Sad to say because I love Jirachi.

 

[Durant]

Bringing back Breloom for discussion since Grassycow made some good points about Breloom.

View attachment 13540Breloom for A- Now that bird spam has died down, lati usage has gone down a bit and mega venu is a lot less popular breloom has been able to show the meta what it can do. Being able to run sash 4 attacks, sash sd or life orb sd pretty well, this thing can be a huge nuisance for unprepared teams. But I think its best set is the sash set for these reasons:
1. a last resort spore user for a sweeper
2. complete stop to bisharp and mostly belly drum azumarill
3. good type coveredge and pairs well with other sweepers such as mega zard x because it destroys quag
4. can kill talon and mega pinsir with a rock tomb from sash
5. solid priority with mach punch and a good stab with bullet seed

People are now starting to realise how good this thing is, and tourney usage has soared to further prove this point. Now that the meta has calmed down it is a great choice for team building aswell as the fact that this thing should be taken into consideration when team building, 100% accurate sleep good attack and typing is no joke. This thing is a lot better than normal gyarados and gliscor and can easily perform at the level of pokemon such as manaphy, mandibuzz and zapdos.

EDIT: It is already A- durp

 

[Hclegend]

Also, thoughts on moving Weavile to B- and Jirachi to C?

Jirachi? No. Just. No. I've used Rachi before and it usually just was death fodder. Not even the infamous Paraflinch set can save it from demotion. (In OU at least, it'll possibly get BL if it moves down, but w/e)
As for Weavile, that's a different kettle of fish. One of the most underrated late game cleaners/revenge killers. While it does die to Mach Punch (And Fighting types in general) it does have a fantastic offensive typing (Dark/Ice? That's pretty much full coverage right there) and some niches like an INSANELY fast Knock Off (Fastest in the game) and the atfomentioned revenge killer with Ice Shard/Ice Punch. While it can't take a hit for shit, it can check a lot of OU threats (Not quoting the calcs)
I support Weavile for B-/B
(And maybe Haxorus too?)
Edit: Rachi is UU apparently. So that's a thing.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Um, no, Jirachi is UU already, it's A- in the UU thread.

Paraflinch is not the only set Jirachi can run. It has Wish, which Jirachi can use to great effect thanks to its typing and good baes 100 HP, and Doom Desire which turns it into the ultimate Baton Pass counter.

 

[QuickBH]

Um, no, Jirachi is UU already, it's A- in the UU thread.

Paraflinch is the not the only set Jirachi can run. It has Wish, which Jirachi can use to great effect thanks to its typing and good baes 100 HP, and Doom Desire which turns it into the ultimate Baton Pass counter.

Wait a minute what can it even run if it is paraflinch? Iron Head Wish T-Wave Doom Desire that's very weak coverage and power.

 

[Durant]

Um, no, Jirachi is UU already, it's A- in the UU thread.

Paraflinch is not the only set Jirachi can run. It has Wish, which Jirachi can use to great effect thanks to its typing and good baes 100 HP, and Doom Desire which turns it into the ultimate Baton Pass counter.

You pretty much mention Doom Desire all the time to defend Jirachi. Doom Desire is an alright move but it does not counter Baton Pass at all. You will get get of a strong hit on something in the Baton Pass chain but almost everything has recovery against Doom Desire (Roost Zapdos, Wish Vaporeon and Sylveon, Morning Sun Espeon). Also why would you run Jirachi over another Baton Pass check / counter like Haze Quagsire. Doom Desire alone is not enough of a reason to use it. As for the other things you mentioned Paraflinch isn't a reliable strategy and faces competition from Togekiss who shares many similarities with Jirachi. Jirachi can support the team but generally Clefable and Sylveon are better at supporting the team. Jirachi just took a big fall from it's generation 5 glory and ther isn't much reason to use it. C- is fine for Jirachi.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

You don't know how Doom Desire works, do you? When you see a Baton Pass team, you lead with your Specs Jirachi on the first turn and use Doom Desire. Then, switch to a Pokemon with offensive presence (preferably one that hits the opposing BP member super effectively). Break their substitute or spam the strongest move and then pow! It's true Vaporeon resists it, but needs to be specially defensive to actually wall it. If the BP member survives and doesn't have any method of boosting its special defense, switch in Jirachi again and repeat the process.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 424-501 (132 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Denis's team)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 424-501 (130.8 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scolipede: 285-336 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Unless Scolipede is specially defensive, dead

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 328-387 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Most Espeon are physically defensive, so it usually dies to Specs Doom Desire.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 216 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 458-540 (118.9 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Denis's team)

Sylveon is weak to steel, so it has no chance.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 164-193 (35.3 - 41.5%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 164-193 (36.5 - 42.9%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vaporeon is really the only one who can sort of wall Doom Desire. It should be noted, however, that Vaporeon has NO way of boosting its Special Defense, so Jirachi can just come in and use Doom Desire again. LMAO WISH VAPOREON ON BP WTF.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 171-201 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Once again, Zapdos depends on its teammates to obtain Special Defense boosts, and it rarely uses Roost on a Baton Pass chain.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specially defensive Mew can be a bit annoying, but Substitute + a weak attack brings it into Doom Desire's KO range.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO

Even the mighty Mega Scizor hates Doom Desire, and AGAIN it can't boost its special defense.

I don't think I need to talk about Smeargle and Mr. Mime.

Jirachi for C

 

[skies]

Jirachi cannot go higher than D, I don't know what it is doing in C-. It sucks ass anyways, it is not good anymore and it has just fallen from its graces. So we can stop the Jirachi discussion?

Also, about the Weavile thing:

Bringing up Weavile and Jirachi again

Weavile: C+ ---------> B-/B
1. Weavile

Weavile @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

Weavile is the fastest Knock Off user with STAB in the game. Knock Off is a huge improvement for Weavile, since it no longer has to rely on the weak night slash. Weavile is capable of revenge killing a large portion of the S and A rank, respectively. Do note that Weavile can't switch into these monsters, however, which is one of the reasons it is C+ right now.

Weavile is ok, I guess, but posting a huge wall of calcs means absolutely nothing. Firstly, none of these scenarios will happen commonly, and just because a Pokemon beats another doesn't make it good. Rampardos, for example, can OHKO and 2HKO almost all of OU, but that doesn't make it good by any means, it sucks ass. Seriously, can people stop posting huge walls of calcs? I've done it before, but now I realize how stupid it is. Walls of calcs are about as good as an argument saying ____ should move up because it can beat _______. Regice can beat Landorus but that doesn't mean it is viable in OU.

EDIT #3:
Finally, stop saying 'reviving ______ discussion' every one or two pages, it was really freaking irritating with the Gastrodon / Seismitoad (who I think is utter shit), so can we all please wait like 20 or so pages before saying something needs to be revived, and instead of just quoting, add more input?

 

[acestriker19]

So one thing that IMO should be ranked higher is the gourd known as

Gourgeist XL. Now I don't think it should be ranked higher because of its defensive capabilities. Getting Will O' Wisp and being able to counter threats like Keldeo and Tyranitar is nice, but doesn't change the bad type weaknesses it has. The reason I want this ranked higher is because its one of the best Trick Room setters in the meta. Here's the lead set I've been using for my Trick Room team:

Frag Out! (Gourgeist-Super) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Destiny Bond
- Explosion
- Shadow Sneak

I copied the Trick Room/Explosion idea from some RMT, but everything else was thought of by me. This set right here is the best TR lead I've ever used. I use TR on the first turn, and after that the opposing Pokemon either gets hit by a max-attack Explosion, or I can Destiny Bond. In short, this set, 80% of the time, sets up TR and kills the opposing lead. The reason this set is so amazing for my team is probably the surprise factor. With Trick Room set up and the opposing lead gone, my Trick Room abusers are free to cause havoc for 3 turns. Basically, because of this set, I nearly always have the advantage over the enemy team after a couple turns. Gourgeist is so anti-meta right now its not even funny. It allows my team to walk all over opposing offense teams, which are the most popular right now. In short, because of the popularity of offensive teams, TR is emerging as a playstyle and this Gourgeist set is one of the best assets to TR. That's not to say that Gourgeist has a long list of flaws, which means that Gourgeist should move up to C+ and maybe B-, but no higher.

EDIT: I forgot to post a replay, will do next time I play.

(Sorry I'm bringing this back from a page ago)

As a Trick Room player myself and as someone who has used Gourgeist extensively it is very much outclassed by Cofagrigus. Cofagrigus can use mummy to nullify dangerous abilities such as pure power on the opposing pokemon stealing away momentum while setting up Trick Room. Here I'm gonna list the niches that Gourgeist-XL has:

1. Trick Room setter thats bulky and resists ground (complements a couple of ground weak TR sweepers better i.e. Mega Maw, Heatran and Tyranitar)
2. Can spin block Excadrill
3. ...Explosion I guess

And honestly none these are really that good except very rarely because the only time one would really be that desperate to spin block Excadrill is if you're running HO in which case its probably better to use Balloon Aegislash as for Gourgeist as a Trick Room setter: if you want a physically defensive ghost type setter go with Cofagrigus, if you want a physically bulky setter to take on ground types go with Cresselia, if you want a Trick Room Suicide lead go with Bronzong hell use Kecleon basically a Trick Room suicide lead is only worthwhile if it can get up rocks and set up Trick Room. I've used Gourgeist-XL a lot and it has a really, really tiny niche in the OU metagame a D-rank mon if I ever saw one, also its analysis was rejected so it should be moved anyways.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

View attachment 13698

Jirachi cannot go higher than D, I don't know what it is doing in C-. It sucks ass anyways, it is not good anymore and it has just fallen from its graces. So we can stop the Jirachi discussion?

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON:

Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.
Empty

BLACKLISTED POKEMON

• Arcanine
• Florges
• Donphan

Ummm... I don't see Jirachi anywhere on these lists... just saying...

 

[epicdrill]

Ummm... I don't see Jirachi anywhere on these lists... just saying...

Pokemon who have had their analysis rejected, such as Jirachi, are not allowed to go higher than D iirc.

 

[Durant]

Pokemon who have had their analysis rejected, such as Jirachi, are not allowed to go higher than D iirc.

Why are we even ranking the Pokemon with a rejected analysis. It fills up the ranking which is already big enough by itself and Jirachi only really has to be ranked mostly because it used to be good. Seriously the fact that they are rejected means they are not good but putting them in the viability ranking contradicts that.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I wonder why isn't Alomomola at least on D.

It's very mediocre, but I've seem it multiple times on good stall teams. It functions as a wish passer and general "hard to take down" thing. It's also a wish passer who can spam scald, so I guess that's a niche.

Yeah c+ is a good upgrade, b- was absurd but I think the reasoning why people said it's so bad was not very well founded so I commented on that.

Yeah, there is a lot of gratuituous rage towards some pokemon, like "if you ever mention the possibility of that pokemon not being complete turd you are a bad player", and stuff like that. Some people get angry every time they see some pokemon being mentioned. But every pokemon should be discussed, regardless of how underrated/overrated they are.

Well, at least every pokemon not in the blacklist.